BS: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 05:56 PM

Kendall, you miss the point. One cannot abdicate responsibility because of karma, the gods, the stars, whathaveyou. It is by our very belief in such things, as tools to help us understand our choices, that we claim responsibility. If I shrug and say, "Well, I guess I must have bad karma, that's why that happened." Then, according to the teachings I've studied for so long, my next step would be to say "Thanks for the lessons learned. I accept what has happened, now what can I do to change my behavior so that I don't repeat that mistake, again?"

Do you make fun of someone who reads the Bible and tries to live their life by it, or at least use it as a guide?

Bagpuss, do you have any references? Do you know how much statistics can be manipulated, including those in "famous experiments?"

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bagpuss
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 04:15 PM

I remeber a famous experiment which showed that people who have less understanding of statistics, and underestimate the frequency of chance occurrences are more likely to believe in the supernatural.

Has anyone taken part in this experiment?

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 03:02 PM

seriously Mbo, and Naemanson, I believe our lives "fall apart" mainly because of bad choices. But, it's a great comfort to blame it on the gods, or fate or luck or Karma.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: kendall
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 02:58 PM

I dont believe in astrology...we Taurus' are sceptical..

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 12:50 PM

Facts, or what a man believes to be facts, are delightful...Get your facts first, and then you can distort them as much as you please. -- Mark Twain

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Art Thieme
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 11:05 PM

Alice,

I'm with ya.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 07:38 PM

I'm still looking for more folks willing to give birth information for this project.

Needed: time of birth, date of birth, and place of birth

Musical instrument(s) played Musical style(s) played

Singer?

Songwriter?

Any other info you think is relevant.

I prefer a PM as it is easier to copy and keep with the chart and that keeps the info confidential.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 31 Aug 00 - 06:30 PM

Hi Michael in Swansea, Thanks for the data. Can you send me info about instrument(s) you play and whether you sing or not; style of music you play; professional/nonprofessional (semi-professional?); anything else about your relationship with music that seems relevant? I need this for the study. You can email me at: [e-mail]

Just for the record: I have a friend who is a social worker who used to work for children's services. According to a man who investigates cases of child abuse for the government, and teaches social service people about identifying and dealing with such cases (she took a workshop with this man), more children are molested by fundamentalists (usually preachers) than any other identifiable group. Religion per se does not protect-- and I would never want to generalize that people who are religious leaders are all child molesters either. People are people. Some of us are just really messed up and need help to get well. And some of us have a thing for victimizing others. My view is that I like every other person on the planet have a responsibility to be aware, to do what I can to help, and to do no harm. But you know, I can not protect those people-- and I know many of them-- who are responsible for their lives but who will not take responsibility for their lives. If a person chooses to look for someone to "fix" all their problems for them, they will find that person-- and there will always be a price. And I have seen a lot of people willing to do that. I don't condone the behavior of unscrupulous people, but I have had the experience of attempting to "educate" people into taking responsibility for their lives, and seen them disregard what I said and go looking for some one who would tell them what to do and how to do it. And some of them were otherwise very smart people. Sad but true. Most every tool I've ever seen could be used to create or destroy.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 11:45 AM

Hi, hesperis, I've always been interested in different cultures and their practices, beliefs, and mythologies, too. I still am. I just look at things with more discernment now, and dig deeply for the facts.

take care,

Alice

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: hesperis
Date: 30 Aug 00 - 02:27 AM

Alice, that was very well written, and I understand your concerns.
When I was in public school, I was blamed as a trouble-maker. When I went to the teachers asking for protection from the people beating me up, they thought I was lying.
Because I came from a broken home, because I was book-smart, because I was full of grief and bored in class, the teachers thought that I was plotting to beat people up on my lunch hour... Meanwhile I had escaped the tedium and the pain, into a fantasy world where everyone loved me, and I was useful.

Psychology isn't infallible, either. Not every recipient of abuse grows up to abuse people. In grade 4, I realized that I was being beaten up whichever way I turned, so I may as well do what I want to do. If someone had told me that earlier, I probably wouldn't have been beaten up so badly... Anyway.
Thank you for speaking out.

You are right, spirituality is about loving one another.

The rest are just fun things to do that may or may not provide an insight on how to love one another. And like anything else, these things can be used to justify what is good, or what is not good. We always have that choice.

I still enjoy learning about astrology, tarot, and magical rituals. It interests me.

Hopefully, the people contributing their information here or in PMs to Bearheart are aware that people are more than the snapshot of planets in the sky at their birth.

Karma is a strange concept, one that I personally would not use to justify any sort of action, even loving, healthy action.

That someone would use that concept to justify abuse is horrifying.
Blaming the victim is far too common, I have experienced that myself, and I would not blame the tools so much as the people who corrupted those tools.

With compassion,
hesperis

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 01:57 PM

I am on a mailing list for work at home jobs. I often see on the list that psychic hotlines are looking for workers to work on the psychic phone lines (we will train). There was a recent outcry when it became public that welfare-to-work applicants were being recruited to work as telephone psychics. There is even a website by a person who tells of his experience. You can find his page by doing a search on "confessions of a telephone psychic".

I am an advocate for people using discernment and being fulling informed of the history of any belief system they choose. That is why I provided the link earlier in this thread to the history of what we call astrology.

Our country's greatest strength of freedom is also its achilles heel, in that under the freedom to believe, many have created belief systems that bring harm when put into action. There is a law suit beginning in Idaho against the Aryan Nations group that brings out the problem of protecting beliefs that lead to harmful actions. There needs to be discernment in seeing that acting out a belief is not always healthy for people, and in my particular concern, not always healthy for children.

I receive emails every day from people who have realized that they have been duped, lost years of opportunity, their health, and the welfare of their children was neglected, because they believed in a spirituality that turned out to be based on fraud. These people were well meaning, they only wanted to find their true purpose in life, serve God, save the planet, and all manner of altruistic motives. They did not know when they began to practice the beliefs they were taught that the astrology, channeling, etc. was not spirituality. At the time they took up these beliefs, they did not know the history of the people who were held up as spiritual masters and gurus. They will never have those years back, and their children will never have healthy childhoods to remember.

It is because I do believe in authentic loving of one another, truth, honesty, goodness, peace, responsibility, accountability, and ethics, that I speak out on this subject. If what I say leads one person to really find out the facts behind practices such as astrology, fortune telling, psychics, then I think it is worth any heat I may get for speaking out.

As Wolfgang points out, beliefs can be used to justify many practices. Beliefs are used to justify war, human sacrifice, and all manner of atrocities. Questioning the basis of our beliefs is our responsibility.

I remember when spirituality used to mean the greatest commmandment, "love one another". I'm not saying this to preach religion. My point is that with the baby boom generation, we have come to define spirituality as fortune telling, magic rituals, communicating with the dead, casting horoscopes, perfumed candles, exotic gurus, and so forth. None of these really have anything to do with spirituality, in my opinion. It might feel nice/smell nice, but to me, spirituality is loving one another. I consider it loving of me to do what I can to prevent people from being the victims of fraud, and from families and children being led down the slippery slope from one seemingly harmless superstition to something progressively more destructive. If I held back this information, I would consider that an omission on my part to provide just the information someone may need to make an informed and constructive choice about what they choose to believe.

Alice

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 12:09 PM

(NOTE: TONGUE IS FIRMLY FIXED IN CHEEK!)

I've always said that if the TV and telephone psychics were any good they would be calling out and not waiting for us to call them!

Also, in the interest of public safety, we could recruit them to staff the fire stations, police cars, and ambulances so those services would be on site before accidents occur.

(OK Tongue is back where it belongs.)

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 09:02 AM

kat,
I see nothing insulting at all in Seamus' post. Of course it is on the one hand tongue in cheek varying the well known insider joke when a parapsychologist applies for funding his research on precognition and one of the reviewers writes: If it doesn't exist, we shouldn't fund research and if it does, why does she need to apply? On the other hand, it's serious, for it says 'show me' and also indicates which results would be convincing for Seamus.
Introducing 'belief' as you did first and repeat now muddles the issue. Reread Bearheart's first post and you'll find that it is about 'research' and about hypotheses that can be refuted or confirmed empirically whether you believe in them or not. Out of respect for truth and empirical research I'm free to challenge any statements about issues that are in principle amenable to empirical testing. Otherwise we would have different sciences or researches for the respective faithful, like, e.g., in the insane days of 'German (as opposed to: Jewish) physics'.
You'll never hear a bad word from me (mostly no word at all) if a set of statements is declared a faith or a belief system except in two situations:
(a) the belief system interferes with what I believe to be general human rights (from what I've read from you I don't expect you to disagree when I say that for instance I wouldn't keep my mouth shut out of respect for a belief or a faith prescribing mutilation of young women)
(b) the belief system makes statements open to empirical testing.
For instance, I'd not challenge native Americans' beliefs on spiritual ceremonies but I'd challenge statements within the archaeological domain (where they originated from, e.g.) even if they declare these statements to be statements belief. I'd never challenge Christians' belief that Jesus is the Saviour but I'd challenge statements from them about the age of the earth even if they call them statements of faith.
You can't have it both ways. Saying that astrology works and can be tested and when the opposition rises its head saying they should shut up out of respect for a belief. I'd never challenge Bearheart for saying something as 'I believe in astrology. It makes me feel good doing it. Clients seem to like it etc.' But when it comes to empiry and that's how I have read the thread, I reserve the right to disagree and even to disagree strongly.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea
Date: 29 Aug 00 - 07:03 AM

Ok Bearheart may as well throw my lot in.
9:05pm Tuesday 12 June 1951 Swansea South Wales.
It should be noted that as I was born in the summer the time I've given is 1 hour ahead of Greenwich Mean Time.

M

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 02:18 PM

Thanks for your words, kat;

I am used to this kind of thing, been dealing with it for 30 years, and it no longer irritates me, it just makes me smile. Partly because I know astrologers who make a VERY good living playing the stockmarket (and similar pursuits) by astrology. But you have to be into that (i.e., money/betting), and I'm not. You also have to be really into the statistical thing and super good with the math part of astrology. The only thing that gets me excited enough to bother with the math and statistics is MUSIC. Which is why I started this thread.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 01:08 AM

And do you put those same restrictions on your priest, doctor, or whatever you put your faith in, Seamus. If ya don't believe in it, fine, but don't ridicule another's beliefs.

Unless, of course, your tongue is firmly in your cheek and we can't see that. If not, that is a pretty insulting posting, imo.

kat

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 28 Aug 00 - 12:38 AM

I'll believe if you can tell me tonight who will win this year's World Series, and the scores of the games, the Superbowl next January, and which horse (or horses) will win the Triple Crown next year. If your prediction for the World Series is correct, I'll bet heavily on the Superbowl and the Triple Crown. Unless, of course there is a "rule" that you can't use such information for profit. All the best.
Seamus

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Jimmy C
Date: 27 Aug 00 - 01:03 AM

Born 13th November - 1940 in Belfast, Ireland. 8 other siblings - all love to sing, An elder brother played fiddle. My father knew more Irish folk song than anyone else around. I play tenor banjo and mandolin and fool around on concertina, bodhran and mountain dulcimer. Played professionally in a group from 1968 to 1988. Still do a little as a single with one or two gigs every other week. Besides music my other passion is travel. Been all over the U.K., Ireland, Bahamas, Canada and about 21 states of the U.S.A. Hope you don't mind another Scorpio.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 26 Aug 00 - 08:37 PM

Guest, I remain.

Point well taken.

I could do this study using the birthdata of well-known musicians (and may include a few for comparison) because data on many of them is available. However, I'm interested not just in the musicianship piece.

As I have said before: I'd like to go into it in more depth. Are there correlates for instance between interest in folk music as a style and the Venus sign and aspects, for instance? What about blues and the Venus sign/aspects?

And in most of the studies I've seen, large samplings are the rule. In some of the most prestigious and indepth studies esp, where they were looking at multiple factors. I really don't want to be sloppy and draw conclusions based on a handful of people. Among other things, there is a lot of diversity here and the possibility that 25 people would all have enough in common to check for any factor, other than that they were all musicians of some sort, is not too likely. In fact from the info that I've seen already, that's not the case. I think about 5 fiddlers have answered my query, for instance. Can't base a statistical analysis on that. There are twelve signs, after all.

As far as the privacy thing, sure, the chart will show me all kinds of personal stuff, if that's what I'm looking for. However, I have been a professional astrologer for about 20 years, and I pride myself on my professionalism. And besides, I'm too damn busy to bother with it unless asked by the "client". I not only try to do some music now and then, I'm also a full-time teacher, massage therapist and healer. And I live in the woods, and haul my own drinking water from the local spring, cut my firewood year-round (I cook on a wood-burning stove), raise herbs and vegetables, and make my own cat food for 6 cats. I also try to sleep occasionally. I really don't have much time to go mucking about in people's personal lives, or even to be thinking about it too much. Especially 200+ people.

That said, it is true that astrology lays it all bare. But since most mudcatters are unknown to me and likely to remain so, unless they choose otherwise, then I only know that "____" has Moon square Pluto, and all that that entails. Personally, I don't make too many judgements of that kind based on an individual's chart (even when I know him/her well), since I believe that each planetary signature has many meanings depending on the consciousness of the individual, and I can't claim to know what the individual's level of consciousness is.

Just for the hell of it, I will publish my data as well:

Bearheart 5/30/1954 2:11 PM EST Gettysburg PA

Don't argue with me about the time standard, my mother was a nurse in the hospital where I was born and she says they recorded all births in ST at that time.

For those who don't have access to a computer,Here's my info

Libra rising 6 degrees 36 minutes Sun 8 degrees Gemini, 9th house Moon 19 degrees Taurus 8th house Mercury 0 deg Cancer 9th house Jupiter 1 deg Cancer 9th house Venus 8 deg Cancer Conjunct midheaven (10th house cusp) Uranus 20 deg Cancer 10th house Mars 8 deg Capricorn conjunct Nadir (4th cusp) Saturn 3 deg Scorpio 3rd house Neptune 23 deg Libra 1st house Pluto 22 deg Leo 11th house Chiron 28 deg Capricorn 4th house Juno 24 deg Leo 11th house Vesta 16 deg Taurus 8th house Ceres 0 deg Libra 12th house conjunct Ascendent Pallas 0 deg Virgo 11th house

That's me! But not all of me...

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 10:49 PM

Don't what sign I was born under, because I couldn't read signs or anything else at the time.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,I remain
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 06:58 PM

Bearheart, why not tell folks that when they give out their birth info, they are revealing much of their personal selves? I was wondering just how you would get out of giving the finished report when it really hasn't much to do with their musical interest anyway. Saying you need at least 200 is way over the top for any such research on such a small group. I would never give my birth info to a person I didn't know and trust completely, because as you well know, our strengths and WEAKNESSES are there for the viewer and can be used for ill or good purposes. I have been waiting for some of the others who said they are 'into' astrology to say just how personal it is, but I guess they are also curious about fellow 'catters profiles. I too am an astrologer and I would never do what you are asking, especially when it is all posted in a very public site. Peace.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 25 Aug 00 - 02:51 PM

I'm hoping to have 200+ individuals participate in this study (otherwise it's pointless), and so far have stats on about 25. Please tell your musical friends, because while I'm not in a super hurry I'd like to start compiling data sometime within the next month and a half. It will take me at least a month to get the data sorted, and then I still have to write it up.

The information, as I said before, is confidential, and in fact I prefer it if you use a mudcat or other name.

Interestingly, about a week after I inaugurated this project I discovered that a major astrology journal that focuses on research is looking to some feature stuff on music. So if no one objects, I may want to publish my findings... Let me know (especially those of you who have submitted data) if you have a problem with this.

Once again, I need Date, Time and Place of Birth, and info on the style of music , instrument, whether a songwriter, professional non professional, and any other info you think is pertinent...

Thanks a bunch!

Bearheart

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 03:24 PM

Hey people...about that sailing off the edge of the Earth business...that's mostly a fallacy. Washington Irving wrote a seriously flawed account of the Columbus journey, which has since unfortunately been repeated again and again in public schools in the USA. In Washington Irving's story Columbus's sailors were terrified at the possibility of sailing off the edge of the world. Odd that they would be...it was well known to mariners in Columbus' day that the Earth was round. It was common knowledge to all but the most ignorant and benighted people.

Columbus knew perfectly well that the Earth was round, and so did other sea captains. The ancient image of Atlas holding a round world on his shoulders was well known in Europe at that time.

Sailors knew that the reason a ship's masts eventually vanished in the distance was because that ship was vanishing behind the curvature of the Earth.

Columbus' one error was that he thought the Earth was quite a bit smaller than it is, and he expected to arrive in Asia a lot sooner. His men naturally became agitated at the possibility of running out of food and water before making landfall. Had not the Americas and their islands lain in between, Columbus and his men would indeed have perished at sea for lack of provisions before reaching land, so his men were right to be afraid.

You had to be a real ignoramus to think the Earth was flat in 1492. The Romans and Greeks had been well aware that it was round.

Washington Irving either did not know some of these facts, or he was just trying to write an entertaining story. He published "Columbus" in 1828 and "Companions of Columbus" in 1831. Both books contained some serious inaccuracies. Whatever the case, he has succeeded in misleading millions of people to this day.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bearheart
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:17 PM

Home from Chicago...

A lot's been happening here.

In general it's easier for me if you can PM me your data. I like to run a copy of both the astro info and the musical info to file with the chart, so that I can refer back to it.

Lena, Thanks for the data. I'd like more info on the musical side of things (type of music you like, etc.) See earlier entries in the thread for ideas...

Mbo, Time of birth can often be obtained from your birth certificate. Also sometimes family records-- a baby book,etc-- or other family members have a record of it, such as a favorite aunt. And often if all else fails the Division/Department of Vital Statistics of your birth state, or even the hospital where you were born, will have a record of it. Sometimes on microfilm. You can contact the vital statistics people often through websites for doing the geneology thing. Many of those sites have links to the Divisions of Vital Stats so you can search out family history yourself.

hesperis, We might be able to figure this out. But I refer you to the above-- worth checking the birth certificate, or searching for a birth chart (I'm guessing you had one at one time if you know all that about yours.) Still I need your stats-- birth place, birth date , birth time-- to do an accurate chart.

Hoolet, can you give me the nearest city or even an approximate on coordinates. SW Scotland is a little too general. I need latitude and longitude. So you're a singer? What else do you do musically? (Scottish songs/ballads are a very strong interest of mine.)

Tommi, It's true that Hindu astrology is very taken up with conception charts. And there is a branch of western astrology that is concerned with it. The general thought is that the two types give a slightly different slant on the person and his/her life. Because I am not interested in that type of astrology I don't work with it. The idea among some western astrologers is that the moment we take our first breath is the moment that we fully enter into this world and become part of it-- not that womb life isn't life, but that it is so inextricably bound up with the life of our mother that survival is dependent on her. When we are born we can (theoretically) survive without her and so we become individuals in out own right. This also reflect philosophically in the very strong feminine/Goddess aspects of Hindu religion, as different from our more masculine Judeo-Christian/scientific heritage, which emphasizes the individual and a more masculine/intellectual approach.

kat, let's talk more about this music stuff your brother does, and other things. You can PM me or my email is [e-mail].

Brendy-- If you know all that are you interested submitting stats? I'd sure appreciate it.

Andres-- "this is getting better and better":I meant, I love it when people share ideas. I nevere expected this thread would stir up so much dialog. I thought some would be into it and some would be indifferent. I didn't expect it to push so many buttons. But how can we grow if we don't share our thoughts/experience, and then think about what we share, and then share some more? I do feel sad when other people have had bad experiences with some thing that has enriched my life and probably saved my life more than once. But that IS their experience. In the same way I feel sad for people who have had bad experiences with science,with doctors, with religion, with relationships, with swimming or rock climbing. That doesn't make any of those thing inherently bad. Other people have like wise had good experiences with all of those things. Our experience is just our experience. We make the expereince what it is, largely by what we do with it. If we can find ways to transform our pain over anything in to something good, then we don't have to be locked into the bad experience. Once many years ago I was in love. It was a disaster. Then I had a different experience, which taught me to love and trust again. Partly because it was a good experience. And partly because I was willing for it to be a good experience. While you might think that is limited to matters of the emotions, people can have the same kinds of experience in matters of the mind. Some people are downright phobic about math... I am an ex-phobic about math, after spending my first 15 years of astrological study calculating charts. I made friends with algorithms!!!!

Bearheart

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Diva
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:34 PM

In Chinese Astrology I am a Tiger....I rather like that. I'm a Taurean and some of it is accurate.....especially the stubborn bit.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Turtle
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 03:11 PM

Sorry you feel that way, Alice. Maybe we understand each other just fine, but we disagree.

Anyway, I'll look forward to seeing you again on another (more musical? more harmonious?) thread.

Turtle

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: GUEST,John D.
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:18 PM

FARRRRR OUT!

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 11:18 AM

Turtle, you didn't get my point, but it would be a waste of time to repeat myself.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: celticblues5
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 01:29 AM

And, of course, the THIRD thing with "Roses Blue" (one of these days I'll remember to post everything in one tidy note - yeah, sure) is that it is a comment on jumping on the current spiritual bandwagon. At the time this was written, Eastern religions, the occult, etc. were undergoing a re-emergence in the West. Some people just do things to be cool. She puts on the trappings to be exotic, but of course she won't say when your death will occur because she CAN'T because they are, after all, ONLY trappings. (Not that I necessarily think that no one can - there *are* more things in Heaven & Earth, Horatio...)

Around the same time this came out, I met a Catholic priest who had worked for a number of years in India. He said kids over there were rebelling by becoming Christians - ! :-)

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:31 PM

In the Chinese zodiac, I'm a horse. A stallion, if you will. ;-{

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:29 PM

HEy Lena, your birthday is the day after mine - regretably I have a few years on you. I've always prefered the chinese horoscope - I'm a dragon, every characteristic fits, every job so far has been correct, even down to the ailments....

LTS

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Hoolet
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:15 PM

Enthusiastic amateur singer 24/11/55 11.20am SW Scotland maybe you can tell me which songs to learn

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 01:13 PM

I used to be a Cancer but didn't like the medical implications. Also, I was certain my personal orientation was different. So I had a sign change operation. I also went to Sears for a "cut-rate" vasectomy. Now when I get excited, my garage door goes up. And my birthday is in the middle of winter instead of the dog days of Summer/July.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:47 PM

How are we supposed to know offhand, what exact time we were born?

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Turtle
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:45 PM

Hi everyone. Back from the weekend, entering the fray . . .

Alice, I hear what you say about your experience and I respect it. It sounds horrible. I too have witnessed that kind of unthinking adherence to a belief system that is damaging. Any belief system will do if denial is really the goal. Just think of all those kids abused by Catholic priests, and the parents who couldn't imagine that such a thing could be happening because it would mean questioning their faith in the church. It sounds as though you acted courageously to re-examine your own beliefs and experience, and to try to protect a child. That is praiseworthy.

However, I think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't say that I believed without proof. I said that the issue of belief was irrelevant from my perspective, and that I don't know whether I "believe" or not. To me "do I believe in astrology?" is the wrong question. I don't think I could answer it, or I would answer it differently at different times.Yes, no, maybe, I don't know.

For me the question is, rather: is this system of image and metaphor helpful to me? Leaving aside the question of belief and proof. And, in fact, it is. That doesn't mean that it is to everyone. And it's not really open to argument. It's about experience, not about belief.

Perhaps I experience astrology differently from you. I don't experience it as a way of categorizing people and putting them in little boxes. I don't feel "summed up" by astrology. I don't find it particularly comforting. It's not a way of controlling people or thinking I know what they're all about, or reducing my view of them to a set of static symbols.

For me, tarot and astrology are like a window or a peephole onto the mystery you talked about. They show me how much I can never know. They are a way of playing with images, metaphor, and pattern, like writing, like music, like a kid sitting down with a set of brightly colored pattern blocks and making something pretty. They are also sometimes a spiritual practice for me (tarot more than astrology) in a meditative sense. They are helpful to me because I am a metaphorical thinker, and I often understand things more clearly through the use of metaphor and image than I do through the use of logic. (Of course, I'm a Pisces! *BG* Joke, joke.)

Of course astrology doesn't meet logical tests. It's not a system based on logic. It's a system based on metaphor. Logic systems don't meet metaphorical tests either (does it make a good story? does it connect you to the natural world? does it expand your view of the universe? does it give you a deeper stock of lovingkindness for others?). It's like that old standby, comparing apples and oranges. Logic isn't invalidated because it doesn't meet metaphorical tests--that isn't what it's for. The reverse is also true. Metaphorical systems serve a different purpose than logical systems. Not better or worse or higher or lower, just different. Either kind of system can be used in the service of denial and delusion; either can also be used in the service of clarity and understanding. Either can do damage.

Of course the human brain is wired to make patterns. That's what learning is all about. That doesn't mean that all the patterns are invalid. Logic is a pattern created by the human mind, for example. Skinner knew he had set up a random food-delivery system for his cages full of pigeons. None of us know that about the universe; none of us is in control of the parameters of the experiment. Logic and metaphor are just two of the patterns we have created to try to make sense of our experience, and neither is infallible.

Well, obviously I could go on and on about this (and I have!). Maybe this will be the post that kills the thread!

Turtle

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: celticblues5
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:11 PM

Alice - look for me to post the lyrics in a separate thread later today. I've been wanting to ask if anyone has the chords for it anyway.

I should have said in my previous note that, it seems to me that Joni is not only commenting on the exclusionary aspect, but that one should not be slavishly devoted to a system that lays things down in black & white, with no way out - that fate is not insurmountable (ie - that your cards have been dealt & if you're, say, a double Aries, this is how things will be and there's nothing you can do about it). I don't know anyone who follows astrology who adheres slavishly to this idea - they all use it as a tool & a guide, but certainly don't claim that there is no free will.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Lena
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:28 AM

Born the 15th of sptember 1979 in Florence,central Italy,at 5.15 in the morning.Please don't laugh when you'll find out all my planets are in virgo.I play clarinet and I'm not a professional.Is that all you needed?!

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:12 PM

can you post all the lyrics, celticblues5? This goes along with my page of parodies of songs on the cult topic, and others in the DT such as "Ma Sheela".

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: celticblues5
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:07 PM

Alice -

I think Joni's thought there ("Roses Blue") was simply that ANY slavish devotion to a belief system which is exclusionary is not good - one could just as easily apply the concept to fundamentalist Christian or Muslim beliefs.

as in the Austin Lounge Lizards'"Jesus Loves Me But He Can't Stand You" -
(approximate lyrics)

"We're bringin' our kids up in a righteous way,
So don't you be bringin' your kids over to our house to play
Why, your kids'll grow up stoned, left-leaning, and gay
Jesus told me on the phone today"

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:28 PM

I had that book title wrong in my earlier message. It is not Why People Believe, but How We Believe by Michael Shermer.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:38 PM

Brett, it's called "The Self-Fulfilling Prophecy".

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:00 PM

I am amused that this discussion is taking place in two different threads and each one is unique!

Kat, you said "...some of us choose to believe what we feel, believe, or see, and maybe try to delve into those mysteries...others don't."

Yes. But you have to remember that our senses are subjective. What we see is not necessarily what we get but what we want to get. A person can see a light in the sky and his brain, preconditioned to look for alien spacecraft, will see a ship. An astrological chart can appear to be right on track and the wonderful human brain will make it come out right. It's just the way we are built.

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Escamillo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:36 PM

Sorry, Kat, Mr. Young is neither an academic or scientist at all, all that he does is put together a lot of obvious facts about physics, life and astronomy, and deducts that the Seventh-Year Itch is a consequence of the rotational period of a planet, of course, without any explanation. The value of his misguiding theories is absolutely null, though he seems to be a well-intentioned person.

I prefer he would say: Yes, astrology is a myth, but I like it. (Oh, Geez, I promised to not take part in the discussion - shut up, Esca!)

Un abrazo - Andrés (not a skeptic - a friendly enemy) ;)

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:20 PM

nope...flat earth theory in not really relevant to logical fallacy....IF the earth were flat, THEN one would indeed sail off it..they reasoned correctly, up to a point,,,they just had bad information and started with incorrect premises...(no one had figured yet out what it meant when a tall sail disappeared as the ship sailed away)...Copernicus had some excellent reasoning, he just had bad info about the relation of the sun to the earth...

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:38 PM

Bet they thought it was fallacious reasoning to declare one would not sail off the edge of the earth, too! *bg*

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:31 PM

Well this sure is one bizarre discussion!

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:27 PM

ummmm...In one short article, Arthur M. Young violates several of the basic rules of logic..logical fallacies ...many bright, creative people fall into these traps quite honestly, and it is not easy to show WHY their careful analysis is faulty. It also does not prove them wrong...only that they employed fallacious reasoning...

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 06:12 PM

Okay, let's see how open-minded some skeptics might be. Please CLICK HERE for an excellent scientific article on The Value of Astrology by Arthur M. Young, inventor of the Bell Helicopter and well-known scientist, philosopher, cosmologist and a few other things. It looks as though he has some very interesting other articles available, too, some in audio format.

Keeping it musical....

When the moon is in the Seventh House
And Jupiter aligns with Mars
Then peace will guide the planets
And love will steer the stars
This is the dawning of the age of Aquarius
Age of Aquarius
Aquarius!
Aquarius!
.....

**BG**

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 05:21 PM

I think you're smart, you sweet thing
Tell me your sign?
Ooo woo got you where I want you
Yeah...

Subject: RE: Astrological Stats on Mudcatters
From: Alice
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 05:08 PM

To bring this thread around to something musical, here is a song by Joni Mitchell, provided here for non-commercial, educational purposes.

ROSES BLUE
© 1968 & 1974 Siquomb Publishing Corp.
By Joni Mitchell

I think of tears, I think of rain on shingles;
I think of rain, I think of roses blue.
I think of Rose, My heart begins to tremble,
To see the place she's lately gotten to,
Gotten to.

She's gotten to mysterious devotions,
She's gotten to the zodiac and zen,
She's gotten into tarot cards and potions,
She's laying her religion on her friends,
On her friends.

Friends who come to ask her for their future,
Friends who come to find they can't be friends,
Because of signs and seasons that don't suit her,
She'll prophesy your death, she won't say when,
Won't say when.

When all the black cards come you cannot barter,
When all your stars are stacked you cannot win,
She'll shake her head and treat you like a martyr,
It is her blackest spell she puts you in,
Puts you in.

In sorrow she can lure you where she wants you,
Inside your own self pity there you swim,
In sinking down to drown her voice still haunts you,
And only with your laughter can you win,
Can you win.

You think of tears, I think of rain on shingles,
I think of rain, I think of Roses blue,
I think of Rose, my heart begins to tremble,
To see the place she's lately gotten to,
Gotten to.