BS: FORGIVENESS:

Subject: FORGIVENESS:
From: SandyToes
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 07:36 AM

I don't beg for your forgiveness but I am strong enough to ask for your forgiveness. I am sorry that I have offended you guys here at mudcat. I can take it and I can give it. I prefer not to have to give it. So I am offering my apologies here. Take it or leave it. But the old saying goes.....stick and stones can break my bones but word will never harm me. I hold true to that saying. Thanks for your time. I am truly sorry for offending any of you. And in the future it will be private. But what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I am sorry...that is all I can offer any of you now. Thanks...Sincerely, SandyToes

P.S.: But the question is...are you willing to forgive and let it all rest? Cause I am. I am strong enough to do it. What about you??? Thank you!!! Thank you again.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 08:58 AM

Sandy Toes,
I forgive you for loving Chuck so much that you wanted to make him smile during some tough times. Now get a room and enjoy yourselves.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:11 AM

SandyToes and Chuck:

Goodluck in the Future!

It is all too rare when love blooms. Nothing to forgive about that. I, for one, wasn't offended at all, even after I read everything. I just wish I could re-capture some of the obvious excitement you are experiencing in my own relationships. However, given the excitement, it's probably a good idea to do what Mary says and take it private. You don't want to give guys like me a heart attack or anything. :-).

JAB

P.S. The one thing I took away from the whole episode is that the impersonations have gotten way out-of-hand. They were mean-spirited and the e-mail address that sent them should be barred from Mudcat forever! (IMHO)!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:27 AM

There is a saying that applies. To there and no further. Glad you are here and I look forward to posts from both of you. You have demonstrated courage and caring. Contribute often and let us move on from here.

But people that impersonate others are the lowest life forms. There is very little on the Mudcat that should result in banning. Taking someone elses identity is one. A person that would use anothers identity to cast aspersions on others and avoid blame, or willfully damage anothers reputation, is a vile human being. Those that do this should know that I despise you and most of the good folks here feel the same. If there is justice, then one day you will recieve a dose of the same. May it be so.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:51 AM

Maybe it is me who should apologise to you SandyToes as I do believe you when you said that you were impersonated in another thread but had wrongly assumed you had made the post. Impersonaters do seem to be increasingly common and I really wish that something could be done about them as I believe that they are the worst thing in this forum, that those who do it are a lower form of life than straight flamers and trollers and their actions are far more likely to undermine trust.

As for you, just keep enjoying the forum. You are not the first and won't be the last to make comments that would have been better placed elsewhere and although I am pleased to see to see that such things will be conducted in private in the future I can not see that you have committed an unforgivable sin.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Sean Belt
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 10:03 AM

SandyToes,
Nothing to forgive, as far as I know. Love blooms, poor judgement happens, and the world goes 'round. It's all pretty much par for the course, isn't it?

- Sean

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 10:06 AM

Just out of curiosity, are we now on the final chapter of the overt part of this and we're moving to normalcy.....I have no idea what that is, but I think you get the drift. I hope so ... and if so, Welcome aboard. If not, call me when it reaches that point.(:<))

All posts are welcome if we're off the sugar and caffeine overload.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 10:44 AM

SandyToes, I think that it's sweet that you and Chuck are so much in love, but I'm glad you decided to smooch in private. Welcome! We get into spats here all the time, and unless you get downright mean, like our anonymous "GUEST" has done, people will forgive and move on. In my opinion, there's little to forgive, and I'll be very happy to just move on.

I apologize for falling for the anonymous creep's message. Somebody obviously had too much time and not enough life. It's got to be one sick puppy who enjoys manipulating people in such a way...

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Max
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:32 AM

Oh SandyToes, there is no need to apologize, you did not offend me, it was merely a matter of etiquette. I am glad you are a member now too.

I suppose that making a joke on the radio show was not the way to address this issue, so for that I am sorry. I made the joke for entertainment rather than to make any point. I was just gonna let it die down or the community itself handle it.

Anyhow, don't give a second thought. Welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 11:50 AM

Welcome and thanks for joining so that you have the option of carrying on in private.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Night Owl
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:15 PM

welcome SandyToes...thanks for not shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: tar_heel
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:16 PM

i feel very much obligated here to join in the sandytoes thread(instead of creating a new one)and ask all of my friends in the mudcat to forgive me also for my behavior ,this past week......though it was all in fun,it was in the wrong place.so that makes me wrong..and again ,my apologies to all mudcatters for any offense i may have caused you.......AND for losing my cool with many of you...as i said,you are my friends here and that means more to me than than anything.now,i can face the music and remain cool among you mudcatters......my dear and trusting friends!chuck hemrick

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:51 PM

Thank you, Chuck. I have to say that what was happening sure didn't fit the "you" we've come to know over the time you've been here.

All the best,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 12:52 PM

Thanks Sandy & Chuck...but one should never have to apologise for love. You posts made me feel happy, after all the flaming nonsense we've had in the past. Nothing so beautiful as 2 people in love. Not sure I have that anymore myself. A great happiness upon you both.

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SINSULL
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 01:13 PM

And to bring this back to music:

"Everybody loves a lover
You are lovers and everybody loves you
Anyhow that's how I feel
Now I feel just like a Pollyanna
I should worry?
Not for nothing..."

Mbo - ready to meet my niece? 5'6", blond, blue eyes, talented artist, slim, vegetarian,taught at the Brooklyn Museum this summer, 19... Just say the word.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 01:18 PM

Can she stand hotdog connissuers like me?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Night Owl
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 02:42 PM

Mbo....Lisa can!!!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: GUEST,CLETUS
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 02:50 PM

Doancha reckon thet them girlz wud go fer a feller like me insted uv sum collidge feller? I meen I got me sum money an sum reel fine long handle droors an all.

CLETUS

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 05:52 PM

Oh! Oh Lisa!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 07:32 PM

SandyToes, I see that you are a member now. Welcome to the Mudcat.

Best wishes,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 07:37 PM

So Night Owl...tell me more...?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: wildlone
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 07:51 PM

whats to forgive?
welcome to the mudcat

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Aug 00 - 09:33 PM

Huh? Would somebuddy PM me what this is about??

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SandyToes
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 01:32 AM

Thanks to all you wonderful people........ Sincerely, SandyToes

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 09:34 AM

Sorry Sandytoes, I can't find anything to forgive. I liked the banter between you and Chuck although I must confess that I haven't had the time to read all the threads. If you've done anything really offensive perhaps you could tell us where it is. And would you please forgive me for not reading every mudThread?

Thursday night while out driving, I guess that I was feeling like Chuck does on a good day. The stars seemed to shine brighter than usual as if someone had turned the dimmer switch up full and the moon laughed back at me from over La Goon City. Slowly a lyric crawled up my throat. It went like this:
Home, home for the deranged
Where the kat and the Little Hawk play
Where seldom is heard an encouraging word
And if the sky is not cloudy
Someone is bound to piss on your head

Keep having fun Sandytoes. You and Chuck are an inspiration to those of us who spend too much time in our own personal gutters.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM

flattop - I am most honored to have appeared in your latest piece of doggerel, wretched bit of verse though it is...! How about going next Wednesday to the Rick Kane show at Finnegan's? It's well worth it. Are you free?

I also can't find anything to forgive....well, not on Mudcat, anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 10:17 PM

Cletus,
How tall are you? Molly needs to know if she should wear heels or not. Keep in mind - she is a vegetarian. No possum pie! And no double dates with Paw and the Reg boys. I am having a hard enough time convincing her now.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 10:35 PM

Oooh, her name is Molly?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 10:57 PM

But what about Lisa?

Man, Mbo is being offered two different girls on one thread and I'm still trying to get over being turned down last month. It takes longer than I thought.

Life just isn't fair!

Benjamin

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM

I'm sorry to hear that, Ben. Know how it feels. Maybe we should get together and go cruising for girls. Chicks dig classical guitars, I've heard...

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:11 PM

Yeah Mbo but sometimes its only THE GUITAR that they are interested in. Then you end up spending the night watching in agony as the new chick fondles your guitar but not you, laughs at your plectrum and then spills her drink down the sound hole before heading out the door to a disco. Life's a bitch. You could either try putting a tin whistle in your pocket and seeing what reaction you get or just going out to enjoy yourself as yourself and watch people. I bet the second approach works a lot better. Lots of luck in your hunt.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:14 PM

Plectrum, on a classical guitar?! Shrudder!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: sophocleese
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:16 PM

See what I mean? They just don't understand. Probably couldn't figure out where it plugs in either.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 19 Aug 00 - 11:17 PM

I'm glad that my wretched doggerel honours you Little Hawk but don't be too enthusiastic or mudders might censor us like they did Chuck and Toes. To tell you the truth, you were the only three syllable animal name that I could think of that fit the line. That's the edited version. Originally I wrote 'Where the kat and the Little Hawk pray' but I didn't want to be too mean. I went to see Rick last week on your urging and you weren't there. We had a good talk between sets. I'm coaching soccer this coming Wedneday, a playoff game for a team that includes the daughter of Orillia's crop circle expert, Colin McKim. You should come and psych up the team before you go to see Rick. Or you could get them pumping with a riff from one of your twelve harmonicas.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 02:37 AM

Matt, I'm down!

Should you come to Seattle, or should I come to which ever Carolina you live in? I've heard chicks dig the guitar too. It so far hasn't been anyone I've been interested in though.

Soph, I can tell you really know what your talking about! Makes you wonder, if more girls could play the guitar, would there be anyone out there to talk to?

Anyways Mbo,
Just tell me when your in town!

BMW

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: tar_heel
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 04:40 AM

thank all of you for your support and comments........sandytoes and i appreciate it very much(ps....i still love her very much....uh,dont tell anyone,you know what happened last time..........)Oh well,......love you all,too!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SandyToes
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:17 AM

chuck, no more public postings....thanks (159) but....go to personal messenger to do your postings.....thank you.....sandytoes

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SandyToes
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:17 AM

chuck, no more public postings....thanks (159) but....go to personal messenger to do your postings.....thank you.....sandytoes

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:32 AM

I don't see a need to apologise, I was ignoring the posts anyway. But welcome to the 'cat.

Sinsul - You hold your horses! I've got just the girl for Mbo! Blonde, smart, good looking, independent, loves all kinds of music. She's 19, graduated valedictorian from high school and made dean's list in her first year at Gettysburg College.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:42 AM

Wow, Brett, I'm impressed! And she knows where to download Oasis MP3's!

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:52 AM

She does? Personally I had a helluva time finding them. I finally ran down the Oasis stuff at:

http://www.ahabscamelballs.lick

But the download was real slow......

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:58 AM

Wrong Oasis, Spaw! That's that boring new-age band who's albums always get stuck in the REAL Oasis section of amazon.com.

--Matt (let me tell you 'bout Ahad the Arab, Sheik of the burning sands...)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:17 AM

Molly's meek & Molly's sweet
Molly's every way complete...

(sorry, had a Robbie Burns moment)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:53 AM

Mbo, now try one using the name Kelli.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:02 AM

Hmmm...

Kelli is so beautiful & Kelli is so smart
Kelli's gone and wrapped herself around my little heart...

Any good?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:04 AM

Great! I look forward to hearing it set to music on Hearme!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:11 AM

A Robbie Burns moment may preferable to a Robbie Burns belch depending on your taste.

Since Molly's doesn't rhyme, why can't you do anything that you want with Kelli?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:25 AM

Do anything I want with Kelli? Flattop, I have respect for women! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:45 AM

Good to hear that Mbo. I trust that you wouldn't want to do anything to Kelli that goes beyond mutual respect, kindness and understanding.

If you or Naemanson are looking for rhymes with Kelli, Digital tradition is a wonderful tool. Searching Names like Bobby, Polly, Tommy, Nellie or words like beauty turns up interesting historical uses of the words in often earthy lyrics. As the Polish poet Mickiewicz wrote, civilizations are build on the bones of their ancestors. Max has provided this wonderful digital grave digging shovel. What a great guy!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 12:04 PM

I'm getting confused here. I thought that "Just the girl for Mbo" was Molly. Beofre that it was Lisa, now it's Kelli.

It's got to be that classical guitar!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 12:16 PM

Actually Ben, none of them have heard me play classical guitar! Lisa will soon, though. Man, you need some publicity! Come over to HearMe sometime, and you can sing & play for us! Mudcatter ladies are all so kind, they will shower you with attention! Especially if you have an accent (which I don't), ask Jon Freeman, he knows!

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Morticia
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 12:22 PM

actually Matt, you have an accent too :)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 01:21 PM

Praise raised a good question. What is this thread about? I hope she got a few good PMs. (I owe her a couple and hope that she can forgive me for the delay. I'm only human - probably not a very good human. She's still my mudSaint.)

I know that this has been discussed elsewhere but what the hell...

We all know by now that there is no mudClique but an interesting mudDynamic greeted Chuck and SandyToes messages. Before Chuck and Toes started messaging each other, the non-existent-mudClique made up of highly active invigilative mudMembers seemed to be trying to control the substance, viciousness and secretiveness of unco-operative non-members of the non-existent-mudClique. With Chuck and Toes their invigilation rose to a new level. As far as I could see, Chuck and Toes messages were positive and enthusiastic and their messages were almost void of content except that they loved and supported each other.

Since we don't have a mudClique, Praise is right in a asking what is going on. Spaw can make endless anus jokes and still be considered a great comedian. Peter tells us that he got his jolly stumbling alone in the woods. His writing is great and highbrow and intellectual because he buries his deep feelings between quotes from Kierkegaard and Wittgenstein. Chuck and Toes say, 'I love you, I miss you, my feelings of support go out to you.' and that becomes a mudSin. What gives here?

Several people wrote that they should take their discussion to PMs. I disagree. Their messages were simple, down to earth and refreshing. Passionate writing which points to the world around us is much more fun than highly abstracted writing. You'll probably find that the lyrics that you like have solid images and passion.

If you search root words in the Digital Tradition you'll hit topics that seem to be acceptable to the non-existent-mudClique. Using the Access db wildcard (which work), you'll find that shot appears 334 times, stab 89, kill 583, murder 393, so, sympathy for that Syphilitic cad, Tom Dooley, legit on mudcat however misguided. Sick turns up 192 times, ill 200, die 1387, and dead 873, so I feel that my support for healing discussions is not out of line. On the other hand, kiss appear 618 times, wife 845, husband 226, friend 975 and hug 163. The winner of all the words that I searched, weighing in at a whopping 2329 hits, was love.

No other word came close to love. There it is, almost scientific proof. (When searching hug, I noticed that hug was appearing in words like huge and Hugh and Hughes so don't take these numbers to be the kind of unscientific proof that would stand up to a pair of Little Hawk eyes.) Traditionally, more people loved each than shot each other, than stabbed each other, than made each other sick, etc. They wrote and sang about it. They sang loudly. They sang boisterously. They often sang sweetly. At other times you would have wanted to cover your ears.

We on mudcat are keepers of that singing love tradition. Chuck and Toes made a good start but if anyone wants to go beyond - write barenaked, name body parts, tell us more about those wonderful feelings - I'm all for it. I'll defend the tradition to the best of my limited ability. Many a gray day I could use a huge hug or enjoy reading about some else's happiness.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SandyToes
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 01:41 PM

Here's to you flattop....yes, we all do need a big hug so this one is for you.... ((((((((((((((((( flattop )))))))))))))))) thanks, SandyToes

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 01:43 PM

Oh, that feels good, Toes.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 03:00 PM

HearMe does sound tempting. You'll need to fill me in on all that tech stuff though. But I'd love to play for everybody!

As for the accent, I don't have one! Appearently, Seattle is known for not having and accent. Still, I've been told I have a unique voice (and that was put nicely, so I'm guessing that was a compliment!)

Anyways, it's Lisa! Final Answer? I'm getting lost in a sea of names and can't pick one of them!

Benjamin

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 06:49 PM

flatop, how are you today?
Jeri, how was the Friday night session?
spaw, did you enjoy the PM I sent you last night?
pixie, any news on the "Lock" program for hearme - do you think it will help?
Nynia, I hope that you got my address and look forward to the cd
Mbo, I look forward to hearing the tape and thanks
...

Not getting at you flattop but I think that there is a case for using PM (or possibly other means) and I am only looking back a couple of days here...

The difference with the ones I feel are better placed in PM's and the examples you quoted is that the former only address one person and the situation would rapidly get out of hand if everyone regularly used the forum in that manner.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:01 PM

Addressing one individual risks slowing down or killing a thread, Jon, but it should be the writer's choice. Addessing six people is a clever twist.

What do the rest of you think about Jon's device? Was it good to be mentioned by name or did it hurt if Jon forgot to include you on his list? If you have never written to mudcat and no one knows that you exist, do you feel left out? Is there anyone that I missed? Speak up please.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:03 PM

SOB! I am crushed to be left out...

Well, actually I don't care. *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:09 PM

Sorry Naemanson, you of course matter to me.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:14 PM

You may be saying that a lot Jon. I may have set you up. By the way, I'm feeling better after that big hug from SandyToes.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Franklin Thompson
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:16 PM

I've been following this, and the other, thread, for a few days. With all the violence in today's society, it seems odd that two people should have to beg forgiveness for professing their love for one another.

Are there a few variables that would have made the first thread "OK," by Mudcat Cafe standards? If it had been written in lower case letters, instead of all in capital letters, would that have been deemed acceptable? If SandyToes had joined up with membership, before the fact, instead of after the fact, would that have been deemed acceptable?

I read with wonderment the clash of different personalities on this website. There must be a set of rules, somewhere, telling new members what may and what may not be discussed or written on this very public forum, eh?

But it is very nice that you all are such a forgiving group. It's important to know that, should I ever transgress against the "rules."

Franklin Thompson

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:20 PM

You may have done flattop... can I have a big hug from Sandytoes and everyone else I did not happen to communicate with during the past few days or have yet to communicate with too? the ladies are of course allowed to kiss me ;-)

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:21 PM

You missed me! Thats for sure!
Crushed again! That's no good!

Actually, it doesn't bug me.

BMW

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:23 PM

Franklin, the use of sarcasm or irony is NOT allowed. Honest. Does that help?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:24 PM

Sure. Tough guys crying into their keyboards. I know that you all want a big hug from SandyToes.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:25 PM

sophoclese, the irony is the thing you flatten the shirties with.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:27 PM

But only when you're board, Jon.

Glad you didn't ignore me that time.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:32 PM

Have I stepped into a time warp? What are you people talking about?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:42 PM

Yeah Jon, and I enjoyed the second one too.

And now so I can satisfy ol flattop............

I want all of you to take a look at the two circles below:

1. -- O

2. -- O

One of these is your ass. The other is a hole in the ground. Which is which?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:54 PM

I leave for 24 hours and look what happens. Mbo has gone from choosing among three girls to choosing his ass from a hole in the ground.

For the record, Molly has a 3.95 index at Mt. Holyoke. She is majoring in fine arts. Next semester she is going to Italy to study and perfect her language skills. She speaks Spanish and Italian fluently. Given Mbo's fickleness, Cletus has first dibs.
Aunt Mary

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: MMario
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 07:58 PM

hmmmm---does Molly like older men? Wish I had met someone like her 20 years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:08 PM

What was that crack about not knowing my ass from a hole in the ground. I was not involved in any of that garbage. And I am not fickle. Italy, eh? That long distance crap is what always seems to mess me up.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:10 PM

For the record, and Chuck and Sandytoes, please know that this is NOT aimed at you and I really do appreciate the fact that you've come forward, joined up, etc.

The first all-caps messages passed between C&ST were not done in a specific thread, they were sprinkled around in other threads, seemingly in random manner. No one knew who ST was, but we DID know that Chuck had come on the Mudcat a few months ago and very kindly told us about himself and his family band, including his wife, Peggy. When some of us saw ST and Chuck saying some pretty personal things in these random placings in threads, we became a little concerned. It just didn't seem seemly, him posting to an apparently other woman, so publicly.

I wrote a PM to Chuck and suggested it might be better to take those kinds of messages, i.e. private love affair, to the P.M.'s. Then several other people, in those same other threads, basically suggested the same thing. It didn't get nasty until all, what were thought to be kind hints, were ignored and the all caps in their seeming randomness continued. Then several people got rather nasty including Chuck, then came the ST Impersonator-lowlife; then we all made up and they revealed that ST was Peggy and they are still happily married.

Personally, I would still rather make such deeply personal and deeply meaningful declarations in a more intimate place than these threads.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:19 PM

Meebo, obviously you're not paying attention. Refer to my previous post and take the quiz.

RE: Chuck & SandyToes----To be real truthful, I thought Chuck had flipped out or had a brain tumor or something. No kidding. Then his responses to the first inquiries from kat and others, I was really figuring the guy was two notes shy of a chord. I'm glad all turned out well, but it was a joke played too well for me and I was flat confused.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:28 PM

It was not addressed personally to me, so I do not understand how I got roped into it.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:32 PM

Well Meebo, I didn't want to fall into the singling out pit, so I addressed it to "ALL"........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:32 PM

'A' is the hole in the ground, right 'Spaw?

B.
(not familiar with Mbo's ass.)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: sophocleese
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 08:50 PM

Umm, Brendy, if A is the hole in the ground then B must be..... the way you sign your posts! How neat!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Brendy
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 09:10 PM

Knew you would appreciate that one soph!!

B.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:08 PM

Ah, Italy. A freind of mine is going to Italy tomarrow (Monday) to study during fall quarter. Maybe her absence will help me get over her.

I agree, that long distance stuff isn't worth it! Sinsull, why not send Molly over here! Everybody loves it in the North West!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 10:28 PM

Let me tell you, Ben, it does help you. Hey, you snagged Molly? Of course everyone loves Seattle! Birthplace of grunge! YES!

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:31 PM

Thanks Matt! I could use all the encourage I can get!

Sorry, I only took Molly because I was sure you were taking Lisa. We could trade if Molly is okay with it though.

Yes-
We love it living in Seattle!
Weather it is rain or sunshine we like just fine!

That was a big song in this area back in the 80's

Benjamin

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:36 PM

Ha ha! Ben I think I Molly knew what was going on, she kick our cans back to where we come from--with a vengeance!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 20 Aug 00 - 11:45 PM

That wasn't very satisfying Spaw. I generally enjoy your writing and Peter's but I also thought that SandyToes and Chuck added refreshing voices to the mix.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:07 AM

Man, what a weird thread...by what the hey, it's got my old pals sophocleese and flattop on it, plus Brendy, who can never resist saying something appreciative and thoughtful about me...great!

flattop - sorry I missed you last Wednesday, but I had to go to Toronto to get $800 worth of dental work done. Amazing, ain't it? In Cuba it would have been free (no wisecracks, please...they have good dentists in Cuba). I ended up staying in Toronto with friends or I would have been there to see Rick with you. I will probably go this coming Wednesday. See if you can make it to my Newmarket gig on the 15th September...maybe you could record it?

sophocleese - you dare to mention plectrums and classical guitars in the same breath? Shocking! Then there are those lewd songs you've been bringing to song circle lately...we're not fooled by the archaic language and the sweet voice...better watch it, girl! The song police are taking notes. Expect a call this week on the kilt thing.

Oogleporkum scrotsniggle and snitch did balleybag the upsnort, chamfing merrily on their cumquat bejeebers all the while...as the slitherslag watched from the peeknarled bushes, biding his time...!

Stay tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: rangeroger
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:33 AM

Hey Ben,
I heard people in Seattle don't tan in the summer, they rust.

rrinNorthIdaho

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 03:29 AM

Mbo,
That hurts! So what's going on with Lisa now? And what was the deal with Kelli?
Oh well, It's time to grab those guitars and get back out there! Someday, we'll win!

Rangeroger, lets not get started about Northern Idaho! Seriously!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Lena
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:57 AM

I'm with flattop...PMs?!? No!!!No e poi no!!!We want to know the progresses of the love story,per Dio!! Mudcat wouldn't be that interesting without personal dialogues made public!!!I'm for the abolition of the PMs!!!

And who's this maiden going into my native soil to study visual Arts,is she crazy or what?!Or language?! The long distance crap seems to always fuck up folkies.Or I should say,their partners.Or me.I got an audio-letter from a friend today who saw my ex boyfriend.Funny he's still alive.It used to sound like he couldn't wait so come to me hear in Oz and that it was killing him.Far from being dead,he forgot about me and left me without a word. I wonder why it's always like that,every single time.And I do crazy things,fly miles,cross continents,it's always useless.End of the tragedy.I feel better now.It's true I always find myself alone.But at least i won't die a-ok,enough.

And besides,hello everybody!!!!Looks like nothing happened while I was away for a week!Or do I need to be upgraded?!

I can tell you that while I was away I learned how to roll my thongue on the reed while playing the clarinet.I wasn't sure if I should post this news to the 'explain the unexplained'thread,given the uncanny supernatural effect that such a musical trick has....

I'm serious,Sndytoes & friend,I enjoyed your messages.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:42 PM

Hi Lena. Boyfriend disappeared, eh? Maybe you're lucky. It's the girlfriends who absolutely REFUSE to disappear that have just about driven me to jump off a handy cliff a few times in the last 30 years.

The trouble with intimate relationships is that the parties involved start thinking they own the other person, not to mention the other person's time, affection, and energy. Yeeeesh!!!

I actually opted to be celibate for a few years, I got so sick of it. I know this is rare for a guy, but I did. I have lately been experiencing a change of heart on that. It's nice to know that life still holds a few surprises.

By the way, I have a friend called Jennifer who has a wicked sense of humour. She had mentioned to me that she had been practicing celibacy for some time (due to the same general reasons I gave above, probably). I said "Me too." She said, "Yeah, but in my case it was by choice."

Ha ha ha. What a bitch, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 12:46 PM

Little Hawk, if anyone wanted to own my time, affection, and energy, I willingly give it to them.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 03:20 PM

Yeah but Mbo - what about the bits in between?!

LTS *BG*

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 03:42 PM

They can have that too!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Naemanson
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 04:57 PM

I understand that celibacy is CHOOSING to go without sex. Is there a word for the other side of the coin, i.e., not having a choice? I'd like to know because I've got a bad case of it myself!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 05:03 PM

Not sure, Brett, but I know how it feels.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 05:23 PM

Mbo - you poor naive romantic soul...I used to feel just the way you do. I must arrange for a meeting between you and my onetime girlfriend, Saucy. She's looking for someone to obsess over.

Then there's the one who was going out with my friend David. Their day to day life eventually became an utter misery due mostly to her own insecurities, but was this girl willing to quit? Nope. She made frightful scenes in public, threatened suicide, got violent, threatened to kill him, threatened to kill her daughter, said she was going to get her biker friends to kill him, kidnapped his personal possessions and held them for ransom, and virtually drove him out of Barrie. All this to get him not to leave her! David is not a man who is easily intimidated by anyone, but this girl had him scared. She finally did give up and is probably driving someone else crazy now.

I also know several women who've been trailed around by obsessive men too, not surprisingly...you hear a lot about that these days.

I've got no objection to long term and faithful relationships...I'm all for them. I just object to being sucked dry by an insecure, insanely jealous emotional vampire with no life of her own. To put it mildly...

Naemanson - I think the term for "involuntary celibacy" might be "deprivation"...or something like that. Or maybe..."desolation row".

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 05:28 PM

Yikes Little Hawk! Ok, I didn't mean THAT extreme! That's downright spooky.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:19 PM

I've already written tons around here on relationships and the importance of two strong people committed to the third entity....the relationship/marriage. When one or the other is screwed up, the third and main entity is hopeless.

AS far as involuntary celibacy...........I think that's called "cannagitlaid."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 21 Aug 00 - 06:23 PM

I think you've nailed it, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:52 AM

You're dead right, Spaw, involuntary celibacy is called "cannagitlaid". Voluntary celibacy, on the other hand, is "willnagitlaid". Har, har! Sounds like something Little John Cameron would say, doesn't it?

By the way, lest I be misunderstood, the Jennifer I was referring to who made the wisecrack to me about my own period of celibacy is Jennifer Ives, otherwise known as Jives, a leading light of our own Orillia Folk Society. She loves to bicker with me in a somewhat aggressive but entirely friendly way about anything whatsoever. We frequently disagree but have a mutual respect which goes very deep.

As far as I know, she is not (and has not been) on Mudcat. At least, I don't think so...

And if so, I have no idea what her codename might be.

flattop - there are some civilizations which were built not on the bones of their own ancestors, but the bones of someone else's ancestors...like the children of Israel, shortly after reaching the "promised land", for example. Or the Spanish after taking over Santo Domingo and Cuba. Given time, of course, their own bones do pile up on the top layer, so eventually your expression holds true.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:28 AM

Mbo - It is good that you could hear what LH was saying.

You say that you didn't mean that kind of "anything", well, even if you feel that in a small way, people who can get like that will pick up on it. Thinking that you "need" somebody can be very seductive, so take care.

Too many people are desperate for love because they don't love themselves very well, and cling to the idealized vision they have of the other, often in the process strangling the love that was originally there...

Respect yourself.You still belong to you, no matter who you're with.
Love is made of a series of loving actions, not out of a nebulous warm fuzzy feeling. (That is defined as affection and lust mixed.)

If this is preachy, I apologise. I have been in those sorts of situations many times, enough to be tired of it, and wary. One guy even played part of a song onto my answering machine - after I had refused to go out with him for six months, had told him off right to his face, and had avoided friends who knew him so I wouldn't have to put up with his possessiveness. The lyrics were: "I want to fuck you like an animal."
My friend listened to it and turned white, she was so scared. I wasn't scared so much as angry that he dared try to dominate me like that.
I don't even let people I like try shit like that, you know?
I have even felt obsessive about one guy I knew, but I completely walked away from even trying to be friends with him. I don't take that kind of wierdness, from either side of the dynamic.

I hope that I am whole enough now to take a chance, but I am listening to my instincts!

May your relationships always lead to a greater capacity for joy,
hesperis
(another one for "willnagetlaid" *g*)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:35 AM

Oh, geez... I came here to say 'Sorry' to Sandy and Chuck for calling their entries 'crap' in the BS:sandytoes thread. But now I see this has become a whole different thread. Ah, well. Carry on with your debauchery, folks. Or lack of it. ;)

---Lepus Rex (but those entries still make me wanna take drugs...)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:40 AM

Actually Lepus, its just because we're old farts and don't understand this stuff anymore. When I was young and I looked for love in all the wrong places, the ol' girl I was datin' told me I'd be OK if I would just let her turn around. Simple as that!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Lena
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 03:16 AM

Little Hawk,I know I'm lucky.That last one was actually driving me quite crazy...but anyway,he made me feel crap and threathened every sort of thing because I was running far away and then he himself dropped me. Quite humiliating.Talk about integrity.

My best friend's granny used to look at her and say bitterly:"Hold yourself or you're gonna be a Peg for life". Tuscan way of saying:You'll never find a boyfriend if you don't dress cute and behave normally(don't paint,don't use your brain,just smile pleasantly). We adopted the 'Peg'way of living and that saves time.All night for reading,all day for doing what you want .And no commitment to anybody.The only problem is that it leads to chastity.No sex.Remember that story off free love?!It's a xxxxxing lie!!!You find me a boy who'll sleep with you one night without coming back the day after talking about future.Sometimes they hang around even if nothing happened.And thank God I'm not a man,because i can bet that on the 'Let's get things seriously,tell me about your feelings for me....'department girls can be much more sticky!!!!!

How beautiful to be nasty

Mbo and company,you're too young to get intrapped!!Stop listening to romantic folk ballads!!!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 09:43 AM

Yikes. Makes you wonder if love is worth it at all. BTW Hesperis, that song is "Animal" by Nine Inch Nails, and pretty disgusting, especially the video.

And I'd lose all my fans if I stopped singin romantic ballads.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 10:15 AM

Should I feel responsible for where this thread has gone? I spoke of the singing love tradition. I didn't suggest that we turn this into an exhibit your symptoms thread. ChorttlingChuck and UpperCaseToes look better and better as this thread grows.

I believe that advice on how to love and live our lives is often useless. Rather than listening carefully and accepting others' messed up lives, we tend to project our experiences into their problems. Look at how Little Hawk twisted Lena pain and questions about men into his own problem of dumping women when he's done with them and his fear that they just won't go away.

I have utmost respect for those of you practising celebacy and trust that you continue this high ideal for the rest of your lives. Three days of celebacy is more than I ever wanted to bear.

Ritchie Havens sang in From a Prison:
Save your love for every moment
Save your love around the day
Save your love for every moment
Then forever give your love away

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:09 AM

flattop - you sardonic scoundrel, I am never quite sure when you're serious and when you're not. I am beginning to suspect you are never serious. I am going to give your phone number and address to Saucy, with detailed instructions of how great a guy you would be for her. If you are still alive and sane a year hence, we can discuss it.

"dumping women when he's done with them" indeed! I hope Jesse Helms takes up permanent residence in the wretched hovel you call "home" over in that Homer Simpson type dunghole of a community, Lagoon City. I hope your camel relieves himself on your head while you are engrossed in one of those silly books about computer software that you like to read.

I have it on good authority that you have suffered far more than 3 days of celibacy on a few occasions.

Did I tell you that your hairdo really sucks?

As for love songs...hey, keep singing them, Mbo. The world can always use a few more good love songs. I remain romantic, but cautious.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:25 AM

Hesperis - you too, eh? Food for thought. I think I got the identity thing figured out now...did I get it right?

Lena - I have also been puzzling for a long time about the old "is it possible to sleep with someone one night, and not have them there the next day...or be there the next day yourself...talking about your future"?

We all have friends we can see on Monday, then go on with the rest of the week not worrying about it. That doesn't mean we don't love our friends. So, why can't we do that with lovers? Why do we think we own our lovers?

Have we all been brainwashed by books, movies, songs, and such?

Just what the hell is going on? I would love to have a lover whom I didn't have to worry about, the way I don't hav to worry about my friends. I'm always glad to see them when I do see them, and I'm free the rest of the time. That's the way it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:33 AM

Ah, I can see the headlines now! "Relationships and marriage made redundant!" Little Hawk, we don't need lovers like that, because we (well, not me) already have them. They're called "friends."

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:49 AM

SANDYTOES!!!!
I AM BEGGING YOU TO COME BACK. PLEASE!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:50 AM

Marriage is great for them that want it. I've seen a few good marriages, and I was impressed. It just goes to show, nothing is impossible.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:52 AM

Did Sandy Toes go away?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: tar_heel
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:19 PM

sandyToes is still here,little hawk........she is now a mudcat member.........

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Brendy
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:24 PM

And where has Chuck gone, I wonder?

B.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:28 PM

Screaming into the night after seeing the turn this thread has taken. His passion has been perverted into the merits of celibacy and the failure of marriage in our culture. I liked it better when there were mushy love letters in the Forum.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:30 PM

May I write mushy love letters to Molly? Only asking...

--Matt

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: tar_heel
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 12:52 PM

BRENDY,chuck is now,TAR_HEEL

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:12 PM

Mbo,
Did you guys pass the bottle around Hearme? I'll ask Molly if she wants a letter. She was intrigued by your tape.
Aunt Mary

By the way guys, I thought at least one of you who make even a feeble attempt at pretending that you might be interested in an older woman. Several of us made it clear we were available. Hell some of us even admitted to going for years without sex. I think I will go sit in the corner with my autoharp now and sulk. Of course even the autoharp thinks I am inadequate since I played Bryan Bowers for her.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:17 PM

Thanks, Aunt Mary!

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:23 PM

Little Hawk,

Perhaps I'm more serious than you care to admit.

Lena wrote, 'I got an audio-letter from a friend today who saw my ex boyfriend.Funny he's still alive.It used to sound like he couldn't wait so come to me hear in Oz and that it was killing him.Far from being dead,he forgot about me and left me without a word. I wonder why it's always like that,every single time.And I do crazy things,fly miles,cross continents,it's always useless.End of the tragedy.I feel better now.It's true I always find myself alone.But at least i won't die a-ok,enough.'

Did you tell her that you understood her hurt? That we've all been there and felt horrible? That, yes, men like you and me often act like jerks? That her ex may have felt that her leaving was a rejection? That he may have hurt inside and felt that he couldn't live without her and then found himself adjusting to hurt and anger and to life without her just like she is adjusting to her hurt and getting on with her life? Did you tell her that we all do crazy emotional things? That she doesn't have to be alone? That she should look around at all the interesting people in that part of the globe? That it's difficult to reach out and touch someone on another contenient unless you're as well endowed as Spaw and his uncles? That proximity to other warm blooded beings matters a lot in spite of our feelings that only one person can fill that huge hole in our hearts?

No. You told her she was lucky because , 'It's the girlfriends who absolutely REFUSE to disappear that have just about driven me to jump off a handy cliff a few times in the last 30 years.' The girlfriends are to blame. The crazy women. The stalkers. The ones crazy enough to fly contenients to meet the men they miss. We should be so lucky, Little Hawk.

You carried this girlfriend who won't quit theme into your story about your friend David. When I have time, I'd like to deal with that story but, I'd like to say for now, and for mudcatters who know my real name, Little Hawk's friend David in that message is not his pal David with the bad hair.

david

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 01:32 PM

Older than who? Older is relative Mary, like everything else. Who said they weren't interested? Please don't jump to silly conclusions. Stop sulking. Use your words. Ask questons.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Benjamin
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 02:49 PM

Molly is back in the picture? Yes!!!!!!!

How about me? I can right mushy love letters!!
Pick Me!!! Pick Me!!!

Benjamin

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 03:02 PM

flattop - But, gee, I don't have any good firsthand stories to tell about obsessive guys I've gone out with. Give me a break. All I've had direct experience of is obsessive girlfriends...and perfectly reasonable and excellent girlfriends...and fair to middlin' girlfriends.

I did acknowledge that there are any number of obsessive guys out there too.

No, it's not the same David. Not the one with the bad hair. It's a David who's way taller than flattop, and has been pursued by at least half of the most gorgeous women in the general Barrie area for longer than I would care to say. He is now engaged, to a very steady and reliable woman, and appears headed for a promising marriage. Bravo! The females of Barrie are still in mourning.

Here's a Dylan quote:

"Oh, every girl that ever I touched, I did not do it harmfully, and every girl that ever I hurt, I did not do it knowingly. But to remain as friends you need the time to make amends and stay behind, and since my feet are now fast and point away from the past I'll just bid farewell and be down the line..."

Bob wrote that at the tender age of around 22 or 23, long before his marriage with Sara. I like it.

We've all been hurt, and probably shall be again. As for acting like a jerk...it may have happened at one time or another, but was certainly not with conscious intention. I don't think Lena took offense at my remarks, but if she did I will ask her pardon.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SandyToes
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 03:22 PM

Sinsull, I am still here...it just amazes me how a forgivenss thread becomes everything but a forgiveness thread. I appreciate all the concern. I am here, a member and being on my best behavior here....but thanks for the input on the PM's....wow TarHeel, (Chuck) and I tell some wild tales now in them. But such virgin ears here could not take such. LOL!!! So, just to update any of you, we are more in love than ever...Still here, still around, I read everyday and love the comments. Thanks everyone. SandyToes is here to stay. Sincerely, SandyToes

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:10 PM

LH - yes, me too.

Mbo - you have sex with your friends??? Okies. It takes all kinds... ::Strange, sideways look:: What-ever!

flattop - not a complete idiot. Sometimes you can be astonishingly lucid...

Since that last bit gave it away to David, too, I will sign my name on this. (George, I can't believe it took you _seven_days_ to figure out who I am!!! Pay some attention to my songs why dontcha! *Sheesh*-ka-bob! Sophy figured it out, like, on my second post!!!)
Why does everyone from the Orillia Song Circle make LH guess their M'cat identity?

I am hesperis, I am Chagall... Is there an echo in here?
(I don't remember any past lives though. Durnit!)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:14 PM

No, Wreck of the Hesperus, I don't have sex at all.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:43 PM

So, is oral sex just talking about it dweebs, or do you use your right hand for things other than pickin' gee-tar

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:44 PM

Thanks for the compliment chaGall. Don't ya think that the guys would have less to complain about in their love lives if they simply shut up and listened once in a while? Why indeed?

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Mbo
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:47 PM

Yeah I do, like for giving you a knuckle sandwich.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: flattop
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:51 PM

Gee Little Hawk, I didn't think that Lena was talking about a guy who stalked her. I thought that she was talking about a guy who expessed his strong feelings for her, who then faded into the sunset and left her feeling alone. I could be wrong. Perhaps we should ask her instead of talking about her behind her face.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 04:57 PM

Mbo - that was supposed to be a joke. I guess it was overkill. Sorry.

flattop - if you want to do wierd capitalizations on my name, it's

CHaGaLL

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:20 PM

flattop - I didn't think she was talking about a guy who stalked her either, just a guy who was a little out of touch. We aren't talking behind her face. This is a public forum.

Most guys think they have strong feelings when in truth it's more a case of strong hormones. Not that the two can't combine forces...that's been known to happen. In many ancient tribal cultures couples were expected to have a lengthy period of courtship before becoming sexually involved. That was so the fire that kindled in the lower chakras (sexual energy) would build up until it ascended into and opened the heart chakra (love-friendship-idealism-altruism). Having opened the heart, they were then ready to embark on a real partnership. This was a very wise procedure. If they had sex too soon the energy tended to just discharge itself...particularly in the case of the men, and the heart was not fully opened.

hesperis - "that warm fuzzy feeling...affection and lust mixed" Well, yes indeed. Both affection and lust are perfectly legitimate in their own right, given appropriate circumstances. I think it's very sad how sexuality has been both demonized and idealized out of all context in the Judeo-Christian tradition...the virgin/whore dichotomy. Taoist thought treats it more as simply the natural process of exchanging Yin and Yang energy, which is seen throughout nature. They see it as a health issue, not a moral issue. Taoists were not prudes, nor were they licentious.

That warm fuzzy feeling is one of life's kindest and most beneficent gifts, but in this society one must use it with some discretion.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 05:53 PM

Yes, this is a public forum, and seen by many more people than just those who respond openly. It is a breach of etiquette to disclose a person's surname, but to then discuss their sexual life, is even worse. I do not know who "Jennifer Ives" is, but I guarantee she is known by "some" on this very public forum. I can only imagine the humiliation she will feel when that "some" disclose to her the details of "her" sexual life.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: tar_heel
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:35 PM

as sandytoes said,chuck(TAR_HEEL) is alive and well and being on my best behavior too!WHAT WAS THE NAME OF THIS THREAD AGAIN? but anyway,we are more in love than ever before and we express it every day in the pm's.we haven't gone away...we are right here......sincerely,tar_heel.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 06:59 PM

I wouldn't have thought that Jennifer would be humiliated by that, especially since the joke was on George, but you're right GUEST, it should be her choice as to who knows about her sex life. (Or lack thereof.)

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:27 PM

Point taken. Jen is a tough cookie, and I don't think she would give a hoot (she made said joke on me in front of the entire Orillia song circle), but I will avoid such disclosures in future. Just to be on the safe side.

It's nice to hear that Sandy Toes and TAR HEEL are doing so well.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: hesperis
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 08:51 PM

LH - I told you you'd have to be more circumspect now that I'm on M'cat. None of us 'Oreo' natives are gonna let you get away with anything... Way to go flattop!

BTW - I do enjoy the 'warm fuzzy feelings' I was talking about, with many people. Some more intense, some less. I just try not to take it seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: SandyToes
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:03 PM

Hey guys, chuck and i were criticized so bad for our mushy love for each other.....there is NO difference with you guys discussing the different types of sex here...lets find somewhere else to host it at besides in the thread i started as forgiveness.....choose your own thread....and title it sex...or comments on sex.....thank you... sincerely, SandyToes

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Aug 00 - 11:23 PM

actually Sandy..........Go ahead and start a thread called "Oral Sex and XXX Topics" so we can all work it into a discussion of training reindeer for the blind.

Glad you and Chuck-Tar are going along great and thanks for this thread no matter where it went.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Lena
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:47 AM

"Blessed Are The Cheesemakers". i suggest we all go and read the thread

"Jesus Loves Me but He Can't Stand You"

Subject: RE: BS: FORGIVENESS:
From: Lena
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:55 AM

I forgot to say:alla faccia del casino!!! Sorry if I let some personal shit slip in public!!!Everybodyis freely doing the same and nobody is going at it...I wouldn't have been so inappropriate if I wasn't shaken in that exact moment.So thanks very much could you all remove that first message of mines?!