Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'

Subject: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,Patti F.
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:27 PM

-JMJ- Hi! I'm hoping you Mudcatters can help out with a lyric request originally posted at the Catholic Community Forum. The song is a half-remembered hymn from childhood, set to the tune of the "Ode to Joy," and including the lyric, "...that no man may stand alone with outstretched hands before him."

I figured you folks might be able to find the words more quickly than the CCFers. Hey, it's worth a try, eh? In the meantime, I'll post the Mudcat URL at CCF. The Liturgy subject area over there gets a fair number of musical requests, and this forum is a goldmine!

Peace! --Patti

Subject: Lyr Add: SONG OF JOY (Ode to Joy, Albert Hammond)
From: MMario
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 04:35 PM

would it be this?

SONG OF JOY
(L. Beethoven - Albert Hammond)

Come! Sing a song of joy
for peace shall come, my brother!
Sing! Sing a song of joy
for men shall love each other!

That day will dawn just as sure
as hearts that are pure,
are hearts set free.
No man must stand along
with outstretched hands before him.

Reach out and take them in yours
with love that endures
forever more.
Then sing a song of joy
for love and understanding.

Come! Sing a song of joy
of freedom! Tell the story!
Sing! Sing a song of joy
for mankind in his glory!

One mighty voice that will bring
a sound that will ring
forever more.
Then sing a song of joy
for love and understanding.

Come! Sing a song of joy
of freedom! Tell the story!
Sing! Sing a song of joy
for mankind in his glory!

One mighty voice that will bring
a sound that will ring
forever more.
Then sing a song of joy
for love and understanding.

Sing! Sing a song of joy
for mankind in his glory!

Subject: Lyr Add: JOYFUL, JOYFUL WE ADORE THEE (Ode to Joy)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:33 PM

Well, the most common lyric to this tune that you find in U.S. churches is found in the Baptist Hymnal and the hymnals of many other Christian denominations. It's in the standard Roman Catholic hymnals published by the Oregon Catholic Press (OCP Publications) and GIA (formerly the Gregorian Institute of America). I did not find the tune used in my old Catholic hymnals, the St Gregory and Pius X hymnals. Click here for the Cyber Hymnal entry on this song.
-Joe Offer-

JOYFUL, JOYFUL WE ADORE THEE
(words: Henry Van Dyke, 1910)
(tune: Beethoven's "Ode to Joy," 9th Symphony)

Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee, God of glory, Lord of love;
Hearts unfold like flowers before Thee, opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness; drive the dark of doubt away;
Giver of immortal gladness, fill us with the light of day!

All Thy works with joy surround Thee, earth and heaven reflect Thy rays,
Stars and angels sing around Thee, center of unbroken praise.
Field and forest, vale and mountain, flowery meadow, flashing sea,
Singing bird and flowing fountain call us to rejoice in Thee.

Thou art giving and forgiving, ever blessing, ever blessed,
Wellspring of the joy of living, ocean depth of happy rest!
Thou our Father, Christ our Brother, all who live in love are Thine;
Teach us how to love each other, lift us to the joy divine.

Mortals, join the happy chorus, which the morning stars began;
Father love is reigning o’er us, brother love binds man to man.
Ever singing, march we onward, victors in the midst of strife,
Joyful music leads us Sunward in the triumph song of life.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 05:46 PM

I'll betcha MMario found those lyrics at this Julio Iglesias site (click). It says Albert Hammond Music copyrighted the lyrics in 1994. Seems to me I've heard something quite similar that is older, and more religious.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: HEAR WHAT GOD THE LORD HATH SPOKEN Cowper
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:05 PM

Here's another.

HEAR WHAT GOD THE LORD HATH SPOKEN
[Words: William Cowper, Olney Hymns (London: W. Oliver, 1779)]
(Music: "Hymn to Joy," from the 9th Symphony of Ludwig van Beethoven; adapted by Edward Hodges, 1824)

Hear what God the Lord hath spoken,
“O my people, faint and few,
Comfortless, afflicted, broken,
Fair abodes I build for you:
Themes of heartfelt tribulation
Shall no more perplex your ways;
You shall name your walls, Salvation,
And your gates shall all be praise.

“There, like streams that feed the garden,
Pleasures, without end, shall flow,
For the Lord, your faith rewarding,
All His bounty shall bestow;
Still in undisturbed possession
Peace and righteousness shall reign;
Never shall you feel oppression,
Hear the voice of war again.

“Ye no more your suns descending,
Waning moons no more shall see;
But your griefs forever ending,
Find eternal noon in Me:
God shall rise, and shining o’er you,
Change to day the gloom of night;
He, the Lord, shall be your Glory,
God your everlasting Light.”

Subject: Lyr Add: SING WITH ALL THE SAINTS IN GLORY (Irons)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 06:14 PM

Hymnsite (click) has one more, which I also found in the GIA hymnal called Worship. It's #702 in the United Methodist Hymnal.
-Joe Offer-

---

Sing with All the Saints in Glory

Text: William J. Irons, 1812-1883
Music: Ludwig von Beethoven; arr. by Edward Hodges
Tune: HYMN TO JOY
Meter: 87.87 D

  1.	Sing with all the saints in glory, 
  	sing the resurrection song! 
  	Death and sorrow, earth's dark story, 
  	to the former days belong. 
  	All around the clouds are breaking, 
  	soon the storms of time shall cease; 
  	in God's likeness we, awaking, 
  	know the everlasting peace. 
  
  2.	O what glory, far exceeding 
  	all that eye has yet perceived! 
  	Holiest hearts, for ages pleading, 
  	never that full joy conceived. 
  	God has promised, Christ prepares it, 
  	there on high our welcome waits. 
  	Every humble spirit shares it; 
  	Christ has passed th'eternal gates. 
  
  3.	Life eternal! heaven rejoices; 
  	Jesus lives, who once was dead. 
  	Join we now the deathless voices; 
  	child of God, lift up your head! 
  	Patriarchs from the distant ages, 
  	saints all longing for their heaven, 
  	prophets, psalmists, seers, and sages, 
  	all await the glory given. 
  
  4.	Life eternal! O what wonders 
  	crowd on faith; what joy unknown, 
  	when, amidst earth's closing thunders, 
  	saints shall stand before the throne! 
  	O to enter that bright portal, 
  	see that glowing firmament; 
  	know, with thee, O God Immortal,
   	"Jesus Christ whom thou has sent!"
  

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: thehiker
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 07:59 PM

Unless I am very much mistaken Beethoven's Ode To Joy is the official anthem of the European Union.It could well be that Albert Hammond was commishioned to write lyrics to this glorious opus.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 08:02 PM

the one that goes Joyful, joyful all ye nations?

Been looking, can't find it, sorry.

LTS

Subject: Lyr Add: ODE: AN DIE FREUDE (Ode to Joy, Schiller)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Aug 00 - 09:15 PM

As far as I can determine, the anthem of the EU has no words. It is Beethoven's "Ode to Joy," but without words. Click here for an explanation.
-Joe Offer-

---

Here are the words of Schiller's "An Die Freude," which is what Beethoven used with the tune.

O freunde, nicht diese Töne! Sondern laßt uns angenehmere anstimmen Und freudenvollere! Freude, schöner Götterfunken, Tochter aus Elysium, Wir betreten feuertrunken, Himmlische, dein Heiligtum; Deine Zauber binden wieder, Was die Mode streng geteilt; Alle Menschen werden Brüder, Wo dein sanfter Flügel weilt. Wem der große Wurf gelungen, Eines Freundes Freund zu sein, Wer ein holdes Weib errungen, Mische seinen Jubel ein! Ja, wer auch nur eine Seele Sein nennt auf dem Erdenrund! Und wer's nie gekonnt, der stehle Weinend sich aus diesem Bund. Freude trinken alle wesen An den Brüsten der Natur; Alle Guten, alle Bösen Folgen ihrer Rosenspur, Küsse gab sie uns und Reben, Einen Freund, geprüft im Tod; Wollust ward dem Wurm gegeben, Und der Cherub steht vor Gott! Froh, wie seine Sonnen fliegen Durch des Himmels Prächt'gen Plan, Laufet, Brüder, eure Bahn, Freudig, wie ein Held zum Siegen. Seid umschlungen, Millionen, Diesen Kuß der ganzen Welt! Brüder! über'm Sternenzelt Muß ein lieber Vater wohnen, Ihr stürzt nieder, Millionen? Ahnest du den Schöpfer, Welt? Such' ihn über'm Sternenzelt! über Sternen muß er wohnen.

O friends, no more these sounds! Let us sing more cheerful songs, More full of joy! Joy, bright spark of divinity, Daughter of Elysium, Fire-Inspired we tread Thy sanctuary Thy magic power re-united All that custom has divided All men become brothers Under the sway of thy gentle wings. Whoever has created An abiding friendship, Or has won A true and loving wife, All who can call at least one soul theirs, Join in our song of praise; But any who cannot must creep tearfully Away from our circle. All creatures drink of joy At nature's breast. Just and unjust Alike taste of her gift; She gave us kisses and the fruit of the vine, A tried friend to the end. Even the worm can feel contentment, And the cherub stands before God! Gladly, like the heavenly bodies Which He set on their courses Through the splendour of the firmament; Thus, brothers, you should run your race, As a hero going to conquest. You millions, I embrace you. This kiss is for all the world! Brothers, above the starry canopy There must dwell a loving Father. Do you fall in worship, you millions? World, do you know your Creator? Seek Him in the heavens; Above the stars must He dwell

Friedrich Von Schiller, "Ode: An Die Freude" From Ludwig Van Beethoven's 9th Symphony in D-Minor/D-moll IV. Presto - "O Freunde, nicht diese Töne!" - Allegro assai

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 06:13 AM

I thought I could contribute to this thread but everything of value I know about this hymn has been posted already. So I only can add a bit of trivia:
This hymn was also used for more than a decade as a kind of common hymn for both Germanies when my Germany and their Germany formed a common team to compete in the Olympics. They couldn't agree on one of their respective hymns to be played in case of a gold medal. Beethoven was dead enough for a compromise. In addition to that you could sing their and our national anthem lyrics to this tune which left the respective opportunity to their and our gold medalists.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Mrrzy
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 02:48 PM

Wow, none of these are the version I was taught as a child, which I'd love to have someone here remember for me (consider this an Oh, Yeah, and Here's Another Lyrics Request). It ended in a verse that went:

Build a road of peace before us
Build it wide and deep and long
Speed the slow, remind the eager
Help the weak and guide the strong
None shall push aside another
None shall let another fall
Work beside me, O my brother
All for one and one for all!

...but I don't remember the first 2 verses. Anyone know this one?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,Patti F.
Date: 24 Aug 00 - 10:35 PM

-JMJ- Wow! You folks really do know your stuff! I'll post an alert to your findings at CCF, and if anyone has something more to contribute, by all means, bring it on--this is fascinating.

Peace! --Patti

Subject: Lyr Add: HYMN FOR NATIONS (Ode to Joy, Bacon/West)
From: Tinker
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:29 AM

Mrrzy,

HYMN FOR NATIONS

Brother shout your country's anthem,
Sing your land's undying fame,
Light the wondrous tale of nations
With your people's golden name;
Tell your father's noble story,
Raise on high your country's sign.
Join them in the final glory,
Brother lift your flag with mine.

Hail the sun of peace,now rising.
Hold the war clouds ever furled;
Blend your banners,O my brother,
In the rainbow of the world!
Red as blood and blue as heaven,
Wise as age and proud as youth,
Melt your colors, wonder woven,
In the great white light of truth.

Taken from The Folksingers Wordbook.

Mrrzy verse three was identical to yours only "the" for "a" in the first line.

Tinker

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: The Beanster
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:01 AM

You guys never cease to amaze me! I was hoping I'd find something here though, which I don't think is here unless I'm a complete idiot (which could very well be)... lol

There is a version of "Ode to Joy" that was re-worked by Walter Carlos (later, Wendy Carlos)(!) that was in the soundtrack of "A Clockwork Orange." It has lyrics but the voice is filtered through such a weird distortion gizmo that I could never make them out and they don't seem to match up to any here. Does anyone have a clue as to what lyrics were used for this version of Ludwig Von's lovely 4th Movement?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Skivee
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 10:27 AM

Schiller's version was the original text that Ludwig used for his little ditty. In my humble opinion, other versions fall sho I've gone through 3 Berlin Philharmonic LP's over the years. An Incredable recording with Marilyn Horne, Jeff King, Dame Joan Sutherland, Otto Klemperer conducting. It was even prettier than some banjo tunes I've heard.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 11:02 AM

Thanks, Joe! I've been wanting the German words to the Ode to Joy for years, but haven't ever thought about it while I was near a search engine.

"Nicht diese Töne! Das ist sehr komisch!"
-PDQ Bach

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:52 AM

Here are few little additions to the foregoing...

• In another thread I just posted the lyrics of a little Latin ditty I once wrote (it's imbedded in a story I wrote, Laurea illa leaena (Laurie the Lioness)) to this tune:

  Salve lea, salve silva!
  Estne dies vestra bona?
  Bonum vobis vero volo,
  Et praesertim Laureae!
  Simiarum, aviumque,
  Omnium amor ei est:
  Venatricum quasi dea,
  Nemo eam superest!       —       (English here)

• Another German text I'm trying to get ahold of is Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude by Hermann Oess; I've got the Esperanto translation in my online hymnal, but haven't been able to locate the underlying text. The translator told me a couple months ago he would get it to me, but so far silence... If any of you know where I might find it, let me know! (Or PM).
• I've got a page on my website that has two Esperanto texts (one a slightly simplified translation of the first of Schiller's stanzas, the other an Esperanto-movement pep-rally type song) plus links to others.
• My Esperanto version of "Joyful, joyful, we adore thee".
• My Esperanto version of the Yiddish song "Ale mentshn zaynen brider" (scroll down to see the Yiddish text)... It means (roughly) "All men are brothers / brown yellow black white / peoples countries and climates, / 'tis an old old story. / White black brown yellow / mix the colors all together / all men are brothers / from one father, from one mother."
• And here are links to The Cyber Hymnal's versions of Joyful, joyful, we adore thee and of Hear what God the Lord hath spoken

Liland

Subject: Self-Criticism
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 01:11 AM

Oops, I said "Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude" was by Hermann Oess; it should be Helmut Oess.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 09:36 PM

Found another Esperanto hymn text to this tune, Kamaradoj amgvidataj, in Butler's Himnaro Esperanta and am posting it in my online hymnal. The hymn purports to be a translation, by Montagu C Butler, of one "Comrades we, whom love is leading" by one E. Grubb. So far I have not found any reference to this anywhere else. I'd certainly appreciate the English (or other) original text (Himnaro Esperanta generally gives English titles to translated hymns, even when the original is actually German or Latin or something), dates, any info on E. Grubb, etc.

While I'm at it, let me repeat that I am also looking for the German text by Helmut Oess, Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude, from which Fratoj, kantu ĝojo-kanton was translated. Also an English version if such exists.

Liland

Subject: Lyr Add: FATHER, WE THY LOVING CHILDREN (EC Adams)
From: CamiSu
Date: 17 Jul 01 - 11:05 PM

In the Christian Science Hymnal it is

Father, we thy loving children
Lift our hearts in joy today
Knowing well that thou wilt keep us
Ever in thy blessed way
Thou art Love and Thou art wisdom
Thou art Life and thou art All;
In thy Spirit living, moving,
We shall neither faint nor fall.

Come we daily then dear Father,
Open hearts and willing hands,
Eager ears, expectant, joyful,
Ready for thy right commands.
We would hear no ohter voices,
We would heed no other call;
Thou alone art good and gracious,
Thou our mind and Thou our all.

In thy house securely dwelling,
Where thy children live to bless,
Seeing only thy creation,
We can share thy happiness,
Share thy joy and spend it freely.
Loyal hearts can feel no fear;
We thy children know Thee, Father,
Love and Life forever near.

I have always loved this hymn, but must admit, I don't enjoy singing the "Ninth" when the director demands we sings at the top of our lungs. I think it deserves better...

CamiSu

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 19-Jan-02.

Subject: Lyr Add: PSALM 98 (Reformed Presbyterian Church)
From: Marion
Date: 18 Jul 01 - 09:49 AM

Mrrzy, according to Rise Up Singing, the first two verses of that Hymn for Nations are by Josephine Daskam Bacon, and the third by Don West.

Here's another set of hymn lyrics for the tune; it's closely based on Psalm 98. I learned it from the North American hymnbook of the Reformed Presbyterian Church (who sing psalms exclusively, and a capella as a matter of principle); which means that it might also appear in the old Scottish Presbyterian Psalter.

PSALM 98

Sing a new song to Jehovah
For the wonders he has wrought;
His right hand and arm most holy
Have to him the victory brought.
Lo, Jehovah his salvation
Has to all the world made known;
In the sight of every nation
He his righteousness has shown.

Mindful of his truth and mercy
He to Israel's house has been;
Of our God the great salvation
All the ends of earth have seen.
Sing, o Earth, sing to Jehovah,
Shout aloud, rejoice, and sing,
With the harp sing to Jehovah,
With melodious voice and string.

Sound the trumpet and the cornet,
Shout before the Lord, the king;
Seas and all their fulness, thunder,
Earth and all its people, sing.
Let the rivers in their gladness
Clap their hands in one accord;
Let the mountains sing together
And rejoice before the Lord.

(skipping to the second half of the melody)
For behold, he surely cometh
Judge of all the earth to be;
He with right will judge the nations
And the world with equity.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Ring, O Ring, Ye Chimes of Heaven
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 06:01 PM

I just noticed that hymn #158 in Sambika, the standard Japanese Protestant hymnal, is a translation of '"Ring, O Ring, Ye Chimes of Glory", by John Carroll Davison, 1884'. I have never heard of this one; The Cyber Hymnal doesn't have it (nor a page on Mr. Davison). This is the only hymn in Sambika set to this tune. Anybody know anything about it? I'm particularly interested in finding it because I just discovered this was one of the hymns sung at my parents' memorial service in Tokyo in 1968, the order of service from which I am preparing to post in La Lilandejo (two pages may be seen here). Any assistance will be much appreciated. I would like to put both the English and the Japanese in my online hymnal.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 06:03 PM

Sorry, that link needs to be http://www.geocities.com/lilandr/lbr/gep/memorialsvc/pages.html (I left out the "lbr/").

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 06:07 PM

Stoooopid question - The same Albert Hammond who gave it up for music and free electric bamd?

Just wondered

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 06:09 PM

Or even band...:-|

(whopps whhops wwhhooppsses, whatever)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 07:04 PM

You mean the one the organ was named after?

Liland

PS For those with attention deficit disorder, like me, DtGnome's reference is to a post by MMario back in August of 2000, the first response in the thread, not to any of the later developments much less my query of this date.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 07:43 PM

Liland,
John Caroll Davison (b. 1843 - d. 1928, California) was a Methodist missionary. He published one of the earliest hymnals in Japan in 1874. "Ring, O Ring, Ye Chimes of Glory" was in his Kirisutokyou Seikashuu [Christian hymnal](1884), originally to the tune of BELLERMA. In Sanbika (1931), it was set to the Beethoven tune. This info is from Megumi Hara, Sanbika--sono rekishi to haikei [The Hymn--history and background] (Nihon Kirisutokyou Shuppankyoku, 1980, pp. 263-264). Unfortunately I haven't seen the English words.
~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Jan 02 - 11:32 PM

Thanks, Masato. That's more than Google came up with! The Sambika I am using is a Showa 34 printing of, I gather, the 1954 edition (I have two copies of the 1954, but the other one lacks English indexes, so I don't use it much except in church). It does spell the middle name with two r's. Bellerma's readily available, so if I can just come up with the English text I'll be able to post it with multiple tunes.

I'd also be interested in posting the Japanese translations of any of the other Ode/Hymn to Joy texts, especially the Schiller original and the "Joyful, joyful" hymn. If anybody has them, and they aren't under too much copyright.

Liland aka Rosu haruo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: allie kiwi
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:15 AM

I'm glad no one came up with the song The Seekers sung back in 1967 called 'The Emerald City'. The kids at school used to request it every assembly just to watch me fall into a fit of the giggles (until I accidentally 'stole' the over head projector lyrics *grin*). Talk about slaughtering Beethoven.

Allie
who does actually like many Seekers songs...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:22 AM

Okay, allie kiwi, how's about we compromise. I won't give those lyrics here, but I will link to a thread about the song.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:26 AM

For the less religious, Lewis Carrol's "Jabberwocky" sings well to the melody.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: allie kiwi
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:37 AM

Thank you Liland for your restraint. *grin* And I agree with the sentiments of that thread - WHY????

Allie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:39 AM

Masato, the more I look at this order of worship bulletin, the less certain I am that "Ring, O Ring" was actually sung at my parent's memorial. After each hymn listing there is a line of type. In the case of each of the other three hymns,

Sanbika 9: Tikara no Syu wo ... ("Lobe den Herren, den mächtigen König der Ehren")
Sanbika 88: Sugi ni si mo ka si mo ... ("O God, our help in ages past")
and
Sanbika 267: Kami wa waga yagura ... ("Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott")

the text following the hymn number is the first line of the Japanese hymn in question. But the fourth hymn says Sanbika 158: Waga Kimi ko no hi zo X ni katimaseru. (where "hi" is the "sun" kanji and "X" is a kanji I'm not sure of; but the incipit of "Ring, O Ring" is "Ame ni wa mitukai..."; however, the index of first lines does not list anything beginning "Waga Kimi ko no..." etc. Can you tell me what's up? I would like to know. I mean, here I am 34 years after the fact finally having a chance to try to "virtually" or "vicariously" attend my own parents' memorial service, and I'd at least like to know what music to imagine...

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:40 AM

Sorry.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: allie kiwi
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:43 AM

Was the sorry for me? I wasn't saying 'why did you post it' - just why on earth does that song exist. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

Allie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:49 AM

No, the 'sorry' was because I forgot to put a closing tag on my blockquote indentation; addressing the Clones who sometimes have to clean up behind my HTML. I knew what you meant ;-)...

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: allie kiwi
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 12:53 AM

oh, phew... I'm glad. I hate offending people. And my html is terrible - I've yet to work our how to do a blue clicky thing...

Allie
the computer inept

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 01:03 AM

BaptistLife.com, a moderate-Southern-Baptist-no-not-an-oxymoron discussion board I frequent even though I'm a radiclib Yankee Baptist, has a useful and concise How to Make a Blue Clickie page. The only misleading features are (a) the quotation marks should not be blue and (b) they didn't emphasize that the http:// part of the URL is really really mandatory. With those two minor emendations, it's a perfect tutorial on Blue Clickies.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 01:06 AM

And the part I apparently left out was how to get to that How to Make a Blue Clickie (http://www.baptistlife.com/blueclikie.htm) page.

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: allie kiwi
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 01:43 AM

Thanks, Liland! your thank you song may or may not be to the tune Ode to joy... *wink*

Allie

Subject: Lyr Add: AME NI WA MITSUKAI
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 04:56 AM

Liland,

To the second question:

"Waga-kimi kono-hi-zo shi-ni kachimaseru [or katimaseru]" is the third line of the hymn (I'm usuing hyphens here, which is easy for me to read; it's OK without them, though). Incidentally, both "sanbika" and "sambika" are correct. The newly-edited Sanbika 21 [The Hymnal 21] (Nihon Kirisutokyoudan, 1997) does not contain this hymn; nor does the English Hymnal published by Nihon Kirisutokyoudan in the 1970s(?). The Japanese lyrics, which don't have equivalent words to "ring", "chimes" nor "glory" in them, seem to be a fairly free translation.

AME NI WA MITSUKAI [or AME-NIWA MITSUKAI]
Sanbika 158 (Ring, O ring ye chimes of glory)

1.
Ame ni wa mitsukai yorokobi utae,
Tsuchi ni wa yo no hito mitsuge o kike ya.
Waga Kimi kono hi zo shi ni kachi maseru,
Inochi mo makoto mo michi mo Iesu nari.

2.
Yorozu no kuni tami isogi kitarite,
Arasoi aeri shi mukashi o wasure,
Makoto no mikuni no motoi sadameshi
Hitori no miko o ba kimi to shi aoge.

3.
Ware kara kubiki ni nawameru mono yo,
Tokeshi o shirazu ya tsumi no nawame no,
Kutsu beki inochi wa haya use yukite,
Araware sometari kuchinu inoch wa.

4.
Mikuni ni ada nasu akuma ni kachite,
Ame naru sakae ni irase tamaeri.
Kokoro o tsukushite kimi ni tayoraba,
Owari no kachi koso waga te ni arame.

All the Japanese hymns in Sanbika (1954) and Sanbika: Dai ni hen [The Hymnal Vol.2] (1974) are transliterated in Roman alphabet. Code shift to JIS (or some other Japanese system) is necessary for you to read hymn numbers and page titles.

Sanbika (1954)

Sanbika: Dai ni hen (1974)

~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 07:00 PM

Unfortunately I don't have a Japanese encoding available here. But thanks for the links! I did notice one typo (two whom should I point it out?) in the third hymn:

Ametustchi no mimaki o ba

obviously should be

Ametustchi no mikami o ba

(I've sung this as a solo in my English-speaking church, as well as in Japanese church services; "mimaki" sounds like a sanctified California Roll!)

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Jan 02 - 09:13 PM

Another sushi song? Liland, you're right. The transcription of:

Ametustchi no mimaki o ba
Home matsure, hito no ko yo.
Warera ga Shu no mitono koso
Terikagayake, iya haete.

should be:

Ametsuchi no mikami o ba
Home matsure, hito no ko yo.
Warera ga Shu nomi tono koso
Terikagayake, iya haete.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 05:18 AM

Thanks Liland - Attention deficit disorder? At least you ain't got can't even notice the date of the thread disorder like me! And I still don't know if the reference was to the Free Electric Hammond!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 18 Jan 02 - 06:47 AM

The slightly sinister thing about the € anthem is that the tune is the Ode to Joy, but the words are not part of the anthem. So what *are* those people singing when it's sung?

"Yeah, we'll all join up to Europe "It's the plan of Germany "Get those sucker nations joining "Extend our hegemony"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 12:01 AM

Well, "Joyful, joyful, we adore Thee" may not be in Sambika, but I just found it in Seika (Showa 33 edition, i.e. 1958, I think), another Japanese hymnal, where the first verse goes, in transliteration,

Mikami no ai wo ba
utou warera no
mune wa hira kitari
hana no gotoku ni
mikao no hikari ni
mayoi no kiri mo
uta kai no kumo mo
kiete ato nashi

(not at all sure about the word breaks).

I also find this hymnal has a Japanese version (6 stanzas) of "Come, O Thou Traveler unknown", incipit "Yofukenokawabeni", which it sets to what the American Methodists call CANDLER but which it correctly names YE BANKS AND BRAES (of bonnie Doon).

Perhaps Masato or someone can tell me what the essential difference is between Seika (which I have only seen used by Lutherans here in Seattle) and Sambika which is used by all the other Japanese Protestant congregations I know of here, and was the hymnal used in the churches I attended in Japan as a kid.

Liland aka Haruo

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: masato sakurai
Date: 24 Jan 02 - 10:14 AM

Sanbika (and its follower Sanbika 21) are the most popular Protestant hymnals in Japan. My edition of Seika was published in 1986, where "Mikami no ai wo ba" is numbered 85. It is the official hymnal of Nihon Fukuin Renmei ("Evangelical Associaltion of Japan" composed of several denominations). My corrections are:

Mikami no ai wo ba
utou warera no
mune wa hirakitari
hana no gotoku ni
mikao no hikari ni
mayoi no kiri mo
utagai no kumo mo
kiete ato nashi

~Masato

Subject: Ode to Joy
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:44 AM

Here's another set of English lyrics. The closest to Schiller's words I have found.

Wolfgang

ODE TO JOY

O brothers, no more these sounds continue!
Let us raise a song of sympathy, of gladness
O joy, let us praise thee!

Praise to Joy, the God-descended
Daughter of Elysium!
Ray of mirth and rapture blended,
Goddess, to thy shrine we come.
By thy magic is united
What stern Custom parted wide,
All mankind are brothers plighted
Where thy gentle wings abide.

Ye to whom the boon is measured,
Friend to be of faithful friend,
Who a wife has won and treasured,
To our strain your voices lend!
Yea, if any hold in keeping
Only one heart all his own,
Let him join us, or else weeping,
Steal from out our midst, unknown.

Draughts of joy, from cup o'erflowing,
Boundteous Nature freely gives
Grace to just and unjust showing,
Blessing everything that lives.
Wine she gave to us and kisses,
Loyal friend on life's steep road,
E'en the worm can feel life's blisses,
And the Seraph dewells with God.

Glad as the sun His will sent plying
Through the vast abyss of space.
Brothers run your joyous race,
Hero-like to conquest flying

O ye millions, I embrace ye!
With a kiss for all the world!
Brothers, o'er yon starry sphere
Surely dwells a loving Father.

O ye millions, kneel before Him,
World, dost feel thy Maker near?
Seek Him o'er yon starry sphere,
O'er the stars enthroned, adore Him!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:51 AM

Thanks so much Wolfgang. That's one of my absolute favorites, and I've always wanted more translations. (I also intend to learn the German words someday!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 04:27 AM

Paul Robeson sings it in a micture of English and German (CD: Freedom Train). That could be a start, Mary.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:16 AM

Never heard of that one, sounds like a good idea, and I'll definitly look it up. There's just nothing like shouting FREUDE, untranslatable. You probably see this everyday, but to me it's interesting to see such different translations, especially when some of the original words are not common words.

(I also intend to learn Un bel di from Madama Butterfly in Italian.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 08:27 AM

I just noticed the similarity between the words Freunde and Freude. Does Freunde mean friends (as in the translation at the top) or brothers (as in your translation), or is it better to not try to be too literal? I always remember the line in Joe's translation Alle Menschen werden Brüder, and it just souds like that word is the literal word for brothers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 09:17 AM

I never before thought about the similarity of the two words. 'Freunde' is 'friends' and 'Freude' is well translated with 'joy'. The word 'Bruder' now nearly exclusively means brother as a close relation. One century ago or more it still could by used in a broader sense meaning a very close friend. That's how Schiller used the word, but this use is completely out of fashion today, it only survives in that sense in composite words.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 05:29 PM

Like the English (in some times and places "brother" is restricted to a sibling, in others it may mean fairly vague acquaintance; in the low free churches it may mean "fellow believer" and in the high liturgical ones "male religious"). Incidentally, Wolfgang, can you cite a source or a translator for this latest version?

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Mar 02 - 03:37 AM

I found it when searching for the lyrics Paul Robeson is singing on Freedom Train. No translator is mentioned, but here is my source:

http://links.uwaterloo.ca/~douglas/Songs/schiller.html

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Mar 02 - 07:38 AM

Unfortunately Joe's text only contains a few stanzas, and it is a little bit muddled up.
Here is a link to Schiller's poem "To Joy": http://www.uni-giessen.de/~gb1053/mudcat.htm
I have added the traditional tune of 1801; poem with tune are given as sung by German students about 1890. It is an early version of the poem; later on Schiller did some minimal changes, which are recorded also.
Especially in stanza 8 you will find a catalogue of civil virtues, references to which are preserved till today in German everyday speech.
Keeping in mind the purpose of an European anthem the poem fits well with its description of Joy creating harmony and unity. It is not sung in official use because of the length of the text and the variety of languages, but played by the band and listened to in the right state of mind.

Wilfried

Subject: Lyr Add: BRÜDER, SINGT EIN LIED DER FREUDE
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Jul 02 - 10:48 PM

This is with reference to "Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude" which I mentioned a couple times above that I was looking for.

I got a piece of email a couple days ago from a woman in the German-writing parts of the world, who wrote:

De: "Sigrid Preuss"
Al: [e-mail]
Temo: grosse Bitte
Dato: Ven, 19 Jul 2002 21:18:11 +0200

Liebe Liland,
ich suche verzweifelt den deutschen Text zu "Brüder singt ein Lied der Freude". Kannst Du mir eventuell weiterhelfen?
Das wäre genial!
Vielen Dank im voraus und liebe Grüße,
Siggi Behrent

which I think means roughly

"I am looking bereft of hope for the German text of "Brüder singt ein Lied der Freude". Can you possibly be of any assistance to me?
That would be wonderful!
Many thanks in advance and cordial greetings,
Siggi Behrent"

to which I replied

Liebe Siggi,
bedauerlicherweise habe ich keinen deutschen Text zu "Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude". Die esperantische Übersetzung "Fratoj, kantu ĝojo-kanton", von Herrn Pastor Adolf Burkhardt, ist in der Gesangbücher "Tero kaj Ĉielo kantu" (Nr. 21; meine Quelle) und "Adoru: Ekumena Diserva Libro" (Nr. 597). Vielleicht kann er Dir eventuell weiterhelfen. Ich sende ihm einen Cc: von dieser Botschaft. Bitte um Vergebung auch wegen des Eingerostetseins meines Deutsches!
Liland

which is probably the most German I've written in a week in the last thirty years. It's supposed to mean

Dear Siggi
Unfortunately I have no German text for "Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude". The Esperanto translation "Fratoj, kantu ĝojo-kanton" by Pastor Adolf Burkhardt is in the songbooks Tero kaj Ĉielo kantu (#21; my source) and Adoru: Ekumena Diserva Libro (#597). Perhaps he can assist you further. I'm sending him a Cc: of this message. Please forgive the rustiness of my German.
Liland

Siggi just wrote back,

Liebe Liland,
vielen Dank für Deine Hilfe. Heute hat mir jemand den Text zugemailt.
Übrigens: Dein Deutsch ist doch perfekt! Liebe Grüße, Siggi

i.e.

Dear Liland,
Many thanks for your help. Today somebody emailed the text.

And simultaneously I received, from Pastor Burkhardt, the following email:

Die große Bitte kann leicht erfüllt werden:

Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude

1. Brüder, singt ein Lied der Freude,
   ihr habt Grund zur Dankbarkeit.
   Gottes Weg führt in die Weite
   aus der Hoffnungslosigkeit.
   Ohne Gott heilt ihr vergebens,
   was euch Leib und Seele kränkt.
   Kommt mit uns zum Quell des Lebens,
   der für immer Heilung schenkt.
2. Brüder, ihr seid eingeladen
   alle ohne Unterschied,
   weil der Herr ja nicht auf Staaten,
   nicht auf Rang und Rasse sieht.
   Darum legt die Zäune nieder!
   Keiner soll der Größte sein.
   Daran lasst uns denken, Brüder:
   Groß ist nur der Herr allein.
3. Freiheit hat uns Gott gegeben,
   für einander da zu sein.
   Alle, die der Sorge leben,
   will zur Freude er befrein.
   Keinen hat er abgeschrieben,
   denn sein Opfer macht uns frei:
   macht uns frei, die Welt zu lieben,
   dass in ihr die Freiheit sei.
4. Frieden soll die Welt bewahren
   durch die Kraft, die Christus schenkt.
   Wer sie annimmt, wird erfahren,
   dass ein guter Geist uns lenkt.
   Unsre Augen sehn dann wieder,
   was dem Weggefährten droht.
   Und wir werden wieder Brüder,
   teilen Brot und heilen Not.
5. Kommt mit uns zum Quell des Lebens,
   der für immer Heilung schenkt.
   Ohne Gott heilt ihr vergebens,
   was euch Leib und Seele kränkt.
   Gottes Weg führt in die Weite.
   Gott sei mit euch allezeit!
   Brüder, singt das Lied der Freude!
   Ihr habt Grund zur Dankbarkeit.

Kelkaj komentoj:

A few comments:

Mi nun citis el Evangelisches Gesangbuch für Soldaten 1977. Nr. 95. Sed mi tradukis el folio, kiun mem disdonis Helmut Oess okaze de seminario kiun mi partoprenis (22-24 okt 1974). Tie, la lasta strofo havas nur kvar liniojn:

I have now quoted from Protestant Hymnal for Soldiers 1977, no. 95. But I translated from a sheet which Helmut Oess distributed on the occasion of a seminar I participated (Oct. 22-24, 1974). There, the last verse has only four lines:

Gottes Weg führt in die Weite.
Gott sei mit euch allezeit!
Brüder, singt das Lied der Freude.
Ihr habt Grund zur Dankbarkeit!

Krome, la lasta linio de la tria strofo estis "dass in ihr die Freude sei".

Besides, the last line of the third stanza was "dass in ihr die Freude sei".

Evidente oni (ĉu la aŭtoro aŭ la eldonantoj) deziris plenan 5an strofon por la kantlibro. Oni do prenis la mankajn liniojn el la unua strofo. Sola shangho inter 1 kaj 5:
Brüder, singt ein Lied / Brüder, singt das Lied

Evidently they (be it the author or the publishers) desired to have a full fifth verse for the songbook. So they took the missing lines from the first verse. Sole change between 1 and 5:
Brüder, singt ein Lied / Brüder, singt das Lied

Kroma modifo estas la forigo de seksismo "Menschen, singt ein Lied der Freude" - "Homoj, kantu" kp en ADORU la faritajn modifojn.

A further modification is the elimination of sexism "Menschen, singt ein Lied der Freude" - "People, sing" cf. the changes made in Adoru.

Historio de la kanto:
Helmut Oess, komisiita pastoro por soldatoj en Badenio, devis akompani, en 1972, grupon da soldatoj al Lourdes, inter ili multaj ne-katolikoj (kiel li mem). Lia tasko estis provizi kanton, kiu aludu al la vojagha celo, la pilgrima loko Lourdes, sed ankau enhavu la ideojn de Francio "liberté, égalité, fraternité". Krome ghi ne estu specife katolika. Nun, la unua strofo aludas al la esperata saniga kvalito de Lourdes, la dua pri egaleco, la tria pri libereco, la kvara pri frateco - sed chiam kun evangelia interpreto.

History of the song:
Helmut Oess, an army chaplain in Baden-Würtemberg, in 1972 had to accompany a group of soldiers to Lourdes, among them many non-Catholics (like himself). His task was to provide a song which should allude to the goal of the trip, the place of pilgrimage Lourdes, but also contain the ideals of France, "liberté, égalité, fraternité". Further, it should not be specifically Catholic. Now, the first verse alludes to the hoped-for healing quality of Lourdes, the second to equality, the third to liberty, the fourth to brotherhood - but always with an evangelical interpretation.

Korajn salutojn,

Cordially,

Adolf

So there, another text for the old Beethoven's 9th!

Liland

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 06:26 AM

Wolfgang, when you wrote "Paul Robeson sings it in a micture of English and German" above, were you taking the piss? ;-)

I'd be happy to see this tune transformed into a hymn because I hate so much about it as it is:

- I regard the 9th symphony as Beethoven's only serious lapse of good taste.

- Schiller is for me the whining, wimpish Neil Young/Joe Jackson (delete as appropriate) of German literature.

- It is official EU doctrine that the setting of the tune which is to be used as the € "national" anthem is one by the great Prussian infantry bandmaster himself, Herbert von Karajan.

- And most of all I detest the way it and the flag are being used to recreate at European level the trappings of a militaristic nation State which is precisely what the "European ideal" was supposed to replace.

By the way, today marks the expiry of the European Coal and Steel Community Treaty, which (we are told) was all about making it impossible for France and Germany ever to go to war against each other again. Happy peace (while it lasts, before we all join hands to go to war against somebody else).

End of rant.

(And by the by-way, I know that HvK was Austrian, but I hate what he used to do to Mozart, and the sobriquet for him is just my little rejoinder to the old joke that the Austrians have convinced everyone - and most of all themselves - that Hitler was German but Beethoven was Austrian.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 09:25 AM

Oh my dear, An Pluiméir Ceolmhar!
Don't let us discuss good taste here; let us have a look at German litetrary history. Schiller was coerced by his Duke to the carreer of regimental surgeon in his army - when S. couldn't stand it any more he deserted and turned to the profession he understood best: poet. His first drama, the Robbers, was a flaming accusation of tyranny. Through all his work runs the read string of liberty. That is why he is more beloved and esteemed by the common man than Goethe.
I don't know the two guys you are referring to in your post, but I'm sure Schiller is lots of classes better.
Naturally Schiller's poetry wasn't undisputed even in his lifetime; there are documents of literate people having fallen from their chairs under lots of laughter when reading his Poem of the Bell.
On the other side, your last remark in brackets is quite right. Hitler was a born Austrian and was naturalized in Germany at the end of the 20es; Beethoven was born in Bonn (former capital of the FR of Germany) and never naturalized in Austria.
In 1938, when the German Army occupied Austria, about a million of people assembled in Vienna to receive Hitler and shouted "Heil"; on May 8, 1945 the PoWs in Siberia took red-white-red armbands to show to the Russians, that they were not Germans but the poor innocent victims of Hitler. Bloody gang.
To address Herbert von Karajan as a German infantry band master is, nevertheless, a gross insult to this fine group of musicians.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 23 Jul 02 - 12:43 PM

I realise what symbolic value Schiller has, Wilfried, but let's agree to differ on his writing, though I admit it may just be that my first impressions of his poetry prejudiced me against delving deeper. My affinity for Goethe is probably reinforced by the fact that I'm a civil servant (not that I've read anything by either of them in the last thirty-odd years, BTW).

But since war is now back in fashion, maybe you can help me with an OT question, otherwise I'll start a separate thread. Do you know what is the precise German wording of Clausewitz's famous dictum about war being the continuation of [diplomacy?] by other means? And have you any idea where in the book it occurs? I waded through several hundred pages of a translation a few years ago without finding it (OK, maybe I slept through the bit where it came up...). I have a strong suspicion that he was grossly misrepresented on account of it in Britain, and would like to read it in context.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 08:04 AM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar - Agreed, An; as I wrote in another thread, tastes are different, and that is good so.
A strange question you ask. I'm a civil servant, too, but I served my time and read Clausewitz voluntarily. It must be in his most famous theoretical work "Vom Kriege" (About War)where he says: "Der Krieg ist nichts anderes als die Fortsetzung des politischen Verkehrs, nur mit Einschluß anderer Mittel" (War is nothing else than political intercourse continued, but with other means included).
I'm not sure whether I cited it right, since it is a long time since I've read it, and I have to look it up again (maybe I need some time to find it).
It is one of his facts misinterpreted most.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:14 AM

I remember singing "Alleluia Sing to Jesus, His the sceptre, His the crown" to this; (A shame when there is a lovely Welsh tune!), so I checked the hymn book.
The metre is common, 8.7.8.7. (Doubled), and has many interchangeable hymns and tunes. Possibly the best known is "Austria" (Glorious things of thee are spoken, Zion city of our God) which was not only the tune for the Austrian anthem but also the German. (Deutschland, Deutschland..)
Is it mere happenstance that we have a tune for a European anthem which is interchangeable with the German ?

Nigel

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Snuffy
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:29 AM

I agree, Nigel. HYFRYDOL is by far the best tune.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 09:48 AM

Thanks, Wilfried. Don't stay up at night on my account searching for the quotation but I'd still be interested in seeing it in context if you do come across it.

I take it to mean that countries (well, OK, in his time kings and princes) go to war for specific policy reasons, not just for the hell of it: in practice, it seems to be a still timely call to define war aims before you start a war, and a warning against what we now call "mission creep".

I dragged it in here because I'm uneasy at the direction which the European Union is taking, and the question about the tune which is also our anthem gave me an excuse to sound off. That's me in my gloomy days. When I'm feeling cheerful, I observe that the grindingly slow conduct of business the countless Council working groups is reminiscent of trench warfare, ans is in fact the continuation of war by other (peaceful) means. Admittedly this is the process which has led us to have an anthem without words, and banknotes with "white brand" non-specific cultural symbols, but it's still an improvement on people literally beating each other over the head about symbols. It was also the inspiration which led John Hume to bring about something approaching peace in Northern Ireland.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 24 Jul 02 - 11:11 AM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Found it sooner than I thought since it is on page 19 and in bold letters as a heading; I am sorry for the wrong text I gave in my previous post.
Clausewitz: Vom Kriege / General v. Clausewitz. - 8. Aufl. - Berlin : Behr, 1914
[Title: About War]
Book I: Die Natur des Krieges (Nature of War)
Chapter 1: Was ist der Krieg? (What is War?)
24. Der Krieg ist eine bloße Fortsetzung der Politik mit anderen Mitteln.
So sehen wir also, daß der Krieg nicht bloß ein politischer Akt, sondern ein wahres politisches Instrument ist, eine Fortsetzung des politischen Verkehrs, ein Durchführen desselben mit anderen Mitteln. ... denn die politische Absicht ist der Zweck, der Krieg ist das Mittle, und niemals kann das Mittel ohne Zweck gedacht werden.
24. War is a mere continuation of politics by other means.
So we see that war is not only a political act but a true political instrument, a continuation of political dealings, a realization of them by other means. ... because the political purpose is the objective, war is the tool, and never the tool can be thought of without objective.
I hopr to have been of some help to you; the translation is literally and may be not the best example of Her Majesty's own language, so I beg your pardon.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 25 Jul 02 - 04:05 AM

Thanks a million, Wilfried. Another triumph for Mudcat, solving one of those questions which have been at the back of my mind for decades!

It looks as if either the translation which I have is very free, or else my attention span is much worse than I thought: I don't know how I missed it, given that tracking down this statement is one of the reasons why I bought the book.

I should explain that we never had compulsory military service in Ireland, but for a long time I was a volunteer member of the volunteer territorial reserve. Hence my interest in military theory. I have also, since my schooldays, tried to defend Germany and "the Germans" against the kind of stupid prejudice that was propagated by British boys' comic books of the 1950s before they were entirely taken over by football. Believe it or not, that attempt at objectivity earned me the nickname "Hitler", which followed me throughout my childhood - and that was in "neutral" Ireland! The misguided belief that Clausewitz's dictum is no more than the expression of cynical Prussian militarism is the adult equivalent of the same prejudice, which is also still actively stoked up by the British tabloids, sometimes under the pretext of commenting on football (spot the connection?).

Your translation is fine. "Verkehr" could be translated by "intercourse" in a text of this era, but in modern usage that word is almost totally confined to the sexual domain. "Relations" would be another possible translation. One of the great dilemmas for translators working from German or French to English is to decide whether to translate Politik/politique as "politics" or "policy". Either would seem justified if Clausewitz's heading stood alone as an aphorism, but I think you have made the right choice here, given the way he develops his point.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 08:01 AM

An Pluiméir Ceolmhar - Thanks a million, too, for your attempt to objectivity. It makes me crazy, that 12 years of history have made Germany's face black all over the world, especially when your family was prosecuted for not being Nazis.
Considering Irish independence one shouldn't forget the role of "Comrade Mauser" in the fights (before 1933).
Glad to hear that you volunteered. So did I, in a sort. I was exempt from compulsory service but insisted on doing my duty.
Now back to Clausewitz: Most people only know this little sentence you asked for; the theories behind it they aren't interested in. You are doing well to read them, because in my opinion they still are and will be valid because of their deep insight into human nature - but let us still be glad that thoughts like those expressed in the "Ode to Joy" where our discussion started also belong to human nature and may give some hope.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 11:48 AM

Agreed. In fact, part of my motivation for becoming a civil servant was the belief that it's better to work for your country rather than die for it.

Now I'm in the European Commission, in the department which inter alia runs the Socrates programme, thanks to which approximately one million European students have spent at least a term in another country, the Youth programme which promotes cooperation between youth clubs and organisations, and the European voluntary service which helps young people to spend time doing voluntary work in another country, so it's not all bad!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,vickivivian
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 04:24 PM

I'm looking for the lyrics that go something like this:

"God our maker, mighty father, all creation sings your praise;
Sun and stars in all their splendor, moon in every changing phase;
Earth with all its trees and grasses, sparkling rivers, oceans blue;
All unite to pay you homage singing joyously to you."

Other bits of it go something like this:

"Man and woman you created that united heart and home
They might live and strive together in the building of your world"

"First born of your vast creation leasing all in unity
Leading all in power and wisdom to a glorious destiny."

There's a "Provident and wise creator" somewhere in it as well.
Please can anyone here help me?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,Is is this one ?
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:23 AM

Brother sing your country's anthem
Shout your land's undying fame
Light the wondrous tale of nations
With your people's golden name
Tell your father's noble story
Raise on high your country's sign
Join then in the final glory
Brother lift your flag with mine.

Hail the sun of peace, new rising
Hold the war clouds closer furled
Blend our banners; Oh my brothers
In the rainbow of the world.
Red as blood and blue as heaven,
Wise as age and proud as youth
Melt our colours, wonder woven,
In the great white light of Truth.

Build the road of peace before us
Build it wide and deep and long;
Speed the slow and check the eager
Help the weak and curb the strong.
None shall push aside another
None shall let another fall.
March beside me, Oh my Brother
All for one and one for all.

---

Note from Joe Offer:
words by Josephine Daskam Bacon, 3rd verse by Don West.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,Hymn in the Roman Catholic Missalette
Date: 20 Apr 09 - 01:56 PM

Alleluia! Alleluia! Hearts and voices heavï'nward raise:
Sing to God a hymn of gladness, Sing to God a hymn of praise.
He, Who on the cross a victim, For the world's salvation bled,
Jesus Christ, the King of glory, Now is risen from the dead.

Now the iron bars are broken, Christ from death to life is born,
Glorious life and life immortal, On that holy Easter morn.
Christ has triumphed, and we conquer By His mighty enterprise,
We with him to life eternal By His resurrection rise.

Christ is risen, we are risen! Shed upon us heav'nly grace,
Rain and dew and gleams of glory From the brightness of Thy face;
That, with hearts in heaven dwelling, We on earth may fruitful be,
And by angel hands be gathered, And be ever, Lord, with thee.

Alleluia! Alleluia! Glory be to God on high;
Alleluia to the Savior Who has won the victory;
Alleluia to the Spirit, Fount of love and sanctity;
Alleluia! Alleluia! To the Triune Majesty.

words: Christopher Wordsworth, 1807-1885.
tune: Beethoven's "Ode to Joy," 9th Symphony

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,mike
Date: 03 Sep 10 - 05:31 PM

It seems that possibly every other church has worked different words to fit the ode to joy movement? My catholic hymnal version was(God created earth and heaven, God comanded light to be...seperated light from darkness! Set the bounds for land and sea the next line has con fused me but he final line in the first verse is God created earth and heaven and God saw that it was good!
Help? Please and Thankyou Mike

Subject: ADD: God Created Earth and Heaven
From: GUEST,Anon
Date: 23 Feb 11 - 12:51 AM

Hey Mike,

This is the one I recall as well...perhaps it does have something to do with denomination, as I'm RC. It was always sung to the tune of Beethoven's "Ode to Joy", more or less.

"God Created Earth and Heaven"

God created earth and heaven,
God commanded light to be,
Separated light from darkness,
Set the bounds for land and sea.
While God's spirit on the waters,
In His love did gently brood.
Life on earth began to quicken,
And God saw that it was good.

God made man in his own image,
Gave him power to think and choose;
Made Him Lord of all creation,
Everything in his to use.
Let us praise our loving Father,
Let us thank Him as we should.
For the gifts of His creation,
Which His love has made so good.

(finally found on an Ottawa Catholic School Board website.)

Subject: RE: Ode to Joy - other lyrics
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 05:41 PM

God created earth and heaven
God commanded light to be
Separated light from darkness
Set the bounds for land and sea

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Mar 20 - 05:47 PM

Thanks

This was the hymn I was looking for.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Mar 20 - 01:36 PM

A local Edinburgh choir discovered you can sing "A Man's a Man for A' That" to it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 06:32 AM

Sang in church all the time...lol now Im stumped at how it s tarted t oo!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 06:45 AM

It also had the lines: Speed the slow, remind the eager, help the weak and guide the strong...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Looking for hymn set to 'Ode to Joy'
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 10 Jul 20 - 01:02 PM

When I was at university the Morris side would read the label of a Guinness bottle to it. "Brewed by Arthur Guiness Son & Company Park Royal Limited. Extra Stout Guinness (registered trademark) Arthur Guinness..." and so on. The tune also worked for a morris dance, although I csnt now recall which one.