Help: Copyright? help

Subject: Copyright? help
From: GUEST,yum yum
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 04:10 PM

Can anyone shed some light on how long a book must be out of print before something can be quoted from it or a song can be reprinted? Some of the songs I wish to reprint and quote range from 1800 - 1940's. Any information re: copyright would be very appreciated. Who does 'one' get in touch with, writer or publisher? yum yum.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: DougR
Date: 02 Sep 00 - 05:14 PM

Guest Yum Yum: If you email Michael S. Hart, Professor of Electronic Text at Benedictine University, I think he could answer any copyright question you might have and he's happy to do it. He is Executive Director of Project Gutenberg Etext. His email address is [e-mail], or you could write him at P.O. Box 2782, Champaign IL 61825-3231

DougR

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 06:44 PM

Copied from the Help Forum. I hope this works.
-Joe Offer-

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Subject: Copyright? help
From: Jackie B
Date: 02-Sep-00 - 09:02 AM

Can anyone shed some light on Copyright, who does one approach re: same, how long must a book be out of print before a passage (song, etc) can be replicated? any other information would be appreciated.

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Subject: RE: Copyright? help
From: Jeri
Date: 02-Sep-00 - 12:02 PM

Jackie, this question is better asked in the main forum, as this one is for problems with operation of the website, and people who may be able to help won't see your message. There's a load of information at http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/. (Not that I understand much of it.)

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Subject: RE: Copyright? help
From: Jackie B
Date: 02-Sep-00 - 09:57 PM

Jeri I tried to place this in the main forum but it wouldn't accept it, I have read the information you have made available but,--- I am not 'non-the wiser'.I will try and add it to the main forum as soon as possible. Thanks for your help! Jackie.

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Subject: RE: Copyright? help
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 03-Sep-00 - 08:02 AM

Hi Jackie, I see the question got posted by "yum yum" - is that you? There are 3 possible problems that you may have encountered when you tried to create a new thread.

1: Mudcat has been struggling coping with the demand at certain times of the day and it is possible you hit on bad times. Max has given us an alternative site (http://loki.mudcat.org) to use when the normal site is on a "go slow" or not working.

2: There is a lot of work going on in Mudcat at the moment and some features seem to be taken down, presumably while Max and crew are working on it.

3: The create new thread feature does not like certain characters such as brackets. If you encounter problems, try rewording the thread title to remove any such characters.

Jon

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Subject: RE: Copyright? help
From: Jeri
Date: 04-Sep-00 - 10:42 AM

Sorry I'm so late replying.

The "Submit" button for messages can be a bit tricky. You can be told your message hasn't been received, but if you go back to the main page and click on the thread again, your message is there. This is one of the reasons for multiple postings of the same message. Folks keep trying to send what they believe hasn't gone through, but really has.

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Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:55 AM

An article from an encyclopedia is a good place to start. In many cases, it will tell you all you need to know.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 02:07 AM

In Canada ... The composer must be dead 50 years and copyrights not renewed before it's concidered public domain ..I'm not sure about books. LL

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 02:56 AM

G'day Yum Yum,

As Lyrical Lady says of Canada, so it is in Australia - copyright subsist for 50 years after the author's death. I can't be anywhere as confident about the US, which was only dragged, kicking and screaming, into international copyright agreements in the 1950s ... but, presumably something similar applies now ... with additional extensions that seem to be a feature of Americam copyright.

This means that it is quite conceivable that a 19th century text can still be copyright, if, for instance it is the early work of an author who went on to live to a great age ... and, if some big corporation is making money out of it still, in the US they can extend the copyright.

Regards,

Bob Bolton

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 03:13 AM

Looks like copyrights last a lot longer here in the U.S., Land of Corporate Welfare - 95 to 120 years, or the author's life plus 70 years, for works published after 1978; and up to 95 years for works published before 1978. Works published up to 1923 expired after 75 years, and I thought that 75-year expiration was going to go on for a while. A recent law changed that.
I guess that we won't be getting our hands on all those great songs published in the 20's and 30's. I thought they'd be coming out of copyright now, but it looks like the corporations won another plum from Uncle Sam.
Click here for more information.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Wotcha
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 12:47 PM

US Copyright Law of 1976 was a radical change to US copyright practices in an attempt to gain US participation in the International Copyright Union formed under the Berne Convention (an international agreement that dates back to 1886). The US was regarded by some as a "pirate."
The 1976 Act had to be amended a few times to meet the rather loose requirements of the Berne Convention ... for example you don't have to use that c in a circle anymore ... publication is all that is needed ... but the US still maintains a Copyright Office and registration regime since important legal rights inure to those who do register [it is easier to win an infringement action]).
US Copyright law is a balance between a monopoly for the artist and the public's need for great intellectual works. Struggling artists are benefited by this monopoly and it extends to their families (which is why we now have copyright for 75 years after death). Sam Roger's family is now reaping the benefits of the Canadian version of copyright.
Shorter terms existed under prior law (the US owes its copyright law origins to the Statute of Anne of 1710 which gave copyright for 14 years with renewal rights of 14 years) with options to renew ... but under the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extention Act of 1998, the renewal could now extend to 95 years from date of original copyright.
The periods for copyright depend upon which legal regime was in effect at the time of the creation of a work ... we (in the US) may impacted by the old 1909 Copyright Act for some time to come ... the law is quirky and specific questions should be addressed by a qualified attorney (specializing in Intellectual Property/Entertainment law).
Just because there is copyright, doesn't mean that you cannot perform the work: you just need to get the author's permission or a license. This is where ASCAP and BMI come in ...
For the purposes of criticism, scholarship, and news reporting (and others), in the US at least, we have the Fair Use Doctrine which allows performances and copying of works.
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 02:54 PM

For U.S. works, check Lolly Gassaway's chart "When Works Pass into the Public Domain"

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 08 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

This discussion at Professor Karjala's web site is a good supplement to the Gasaway chart linked above.

T.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 05:43 AM

i would like to reactivate this thread because we are an international community, and songs come from all over. Therefore, there are some questions that I would like answered. Can someone clarify the following: regarding pre 1923 songs that are published in the US by American Authors. I assume that the original work is also public domain if it is used in other countries. If it had been written by someone in one of these other countries that bases the copyright on a certain number of years after death of the Author, the copyright would have would still been in force. Example. An author publishes something in 1921 but lives until 1968. In other countries the law of copyright for a certian number of years after death would apply. A similar question, going the other direction: songs from locations like Canada that are written before 1923. Do these carry the copyright in the US that applies in the foreign country? For example, a song is written in 1914 in one of these countries. Does that song have a copyright in the US if the foreign author lived till 1951? In their country the copyright extends 70 years after death. I know of someone who lives in a foreign country who was asking if some public domain old songs from the US are copyright for them because these different laws apply in their country. thank you

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: pavane
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 01:54 PM

You are right in that copyright laws, and the status of individual works, can vary from country to country, although the EC has recently implemented a common system, which meant that some works which were out of copyright in the UK under the 50 year rule came back into copyright when the EC introduced 70 (or was it 75) years.

I think that anything published before 1900 is out of copyright everywhere. I believe that there are special agreements between USA and some countries to honour their respective copyrights even if this conflicts with the local rules.

Altogether a minefield! The enforcement agencies in each country should have the details, but I wouldn't like to rely on them.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST,yum yum
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 02:48 PM

Thanks to all of you who took the time to reply, I have read all of the replys and have now got all the information I need. I hope to have a book of ballads/songs (compilation) published in the near future.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 02:48 PM

I am wondering if someone in one of the countries outside of the US, such as UK, has to assume there is a copyright on a song that was confirmed written and published in the US before 1923? They would be using the song in their country. I live in the US and was being asked about the status of songs that I know were written in the US and are in the public domain. Anyone have input on that? (the arrangements or translations etc are a different issue.) That is an interesting comment about songs before 1900. Is there some documentation of that anyplace? Thanks again.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Amergin
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 03:25 PM

I have a question about copyright here in the States....

when you do a book of poems and stories...do you have to copyright each piece seperately? or can you just do the whole thing...and still have each piece protected?

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: MMario
Date: 20 Jun 02 - 03:43 PM

yes - you can register copyright on a (previously unpublished) "collection" Alice recently posted something regarding that

see her post in the other thread

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 02 - 08:39 AM

Pavane: it is unsafe to state that anything publshed before 1900 is 'safe'. With copyright extending (generally) for 75 years from the death of the author/composer, someone writing at age 16 might still have been alive in 1980, with copyright extending to 2055.
Where copyright subsists until 75 yrs after death, the death in question is that of the composer/lyricist/author. In the case (e.g.) of Lennon & McCartney, if one accepts the general basis of naming the lyricist first (probably not accurate for this example) then the lyrics become available 75 years after the death of Lennon. The music falls out of copyright at least 75 years from now, as Paul McCartney is still with us.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST,adamadman
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:03 PM

So i've been told by my ICT teacher, in england a song has to be 50 years old before it looses it's Copyrighted status (if that makes any sence)

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST,999
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 01:18 PM

In the US it is nearer 25 or 26 years. However, the copyright can be renewed for another term of the same length.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 02:00 PM

Wrong. 999.
See "Copyright Law of the United States", October 2009:

Copyright Law

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 02:52 PM

I sit corrected. Please point out which section you want me to look at. I`m not really interested in reading the whole thing. Thank you )O righteous one).

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Poster is the Mudcatter usually known as GUEST,999

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:44 PM

Guest, if you have difficulty in comprehending simple regulations, perhaps you don't belong here.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 05:52 PM

Holy shit what a bunch of wankers.

ALL Berne convention territories are obliged to provide for copyright for life +70.

The US position relating to the move from 28 +renewal 28 (or longer) to the post Sonny Bono position is mildly complicated.

The Anglo-American position relating to UK copyright in US works predating the coming into force of the UK Copyright Act 1956 (differs territory to territory) is quite complicated.

I have no idea what an "ICT" teacher is but any teacher should know better.

They who are "not interested" in reading and learning must suffer the consequences.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 06:33 PM

For those with comprehension difficulties, a few excerpts:

"Copyright in a work created on or after January 1, 1978, subsists from its creation and, except as provided by the following subsections, endures for a term consisting of the life of the author and 70 years after the author's death." [Joint works- applies to the last surviving author].

Here are some of those "mild complications" mentioned by Richard Bridge-

"303. Duration of copyright: Works created but not published or copyrighted before January 1, 1978" [replete with footnotes!].
(a) Copyright in a work created before January 1, 1978, but not therefore in the public domain or copyrighted, subsists from January 1, 1978, and endures for the term provided by section 302. In no case, however, shall the term of copyright in such a work expire before December 31, 2002; and, if the work is published on or before December 31, 2002, the term of copyright shall not expire before December 31, 2047. {got that?]
"Copyights in their first term of which is subsisting on January 1, 1978, shall endure for 28 years from the date it was originally secured.
(B) In the case of-
[posthumous works, copyright secured by proprietor; copyrighted by corporate body.... or employer...;
the proprietor of such copyright shall be entitled to a renewal and extension of the copyright in such work for the further term of 67 years.
Etc. etc. etc. for several pages of explication.
[what could be simpler?]

The introduction indicates compliance to the Berne Convention, provided that acts of Congress as specified in the regulations are not violated.

Now what is the problem?

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 07:29 PM

One of the additional complications is that it is very doubtful whether the Berne Convention Implementation Act does in fact comply with the Berne Convention, but the consequences are matters for the US only and the position throughout the rest of the world is NOT governed by US law.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:29 PM

Odd situations occur. I remember the 2002 Winter Olympics in Utah when Australia took a couple of medals or so.
They wanted to hear Waltzing Matilda, but this was stopped because of U. S. copyrights on the melody usually used in Australia.
There is a thread on this somewhere in mudcat, I have forgotten the details.

There is nothing to prevent someone from outside the U. S. obtaining a U. S. copyright in addition; many do.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 05 Jan 11 - 08:42 PM

Looking at the links at top- more threads on copyright issues than anything else?

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:45 AM

US copyright is relevant in Utah - since Utah is in the US. However, even in the US one does not "obtain" a US copyright. It is one of the features of the Berne convention that is correctly implemented that the copyright arises automatically - even in the US. US citizens and corporations are however handicapped (Berne does permit this) in enforcing their copyrights by US registration requirements - non US citizens less so.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Noreen
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 06:26 AM

Guest, if you have difficulty in comprehending simple regulations, perhaps you don't belong here.

Chill, Q!

I don't remember there being any such requirement for posting here. It always used to be that people asked for help/information and those able to give it did so freely and graciously.

If you can't or don't want to do so, perhaps YOU don't belong here, Q.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 09:01 AM

I thought that the Guest's post "I sit corrected. Please point out which section you want me to look at. I`m not really interested in reading the whole thing. Thank you )O righteous one)" was deserving of some rebuke.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Jeri
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:35 PM

I'll just ignore the opportunity to fight.
Somebody refreshed the Sony Bono Copyright Extension thread (look up top for the link), and I checked to see if WikiPedia had anything. I know it's not the authority, but it has a nice summary for those who don't want to wade through the officialese at the end of Q's link to the US copyright office.

Copyright Term Extension Act

The Copyright Term Extension Act (CTEA) of 1998 extended copyright terms in the United States by 20 years. Since the Copyright Act of 1976, copyright would last for the life of the author plus 50 years, or 75 years for a work of corporate authorship. The Act extended these terms to life of the author plus 70 years and for works of corporate authorship to 120 years after creation or 95 years after publication, whichever endpoint is earlier.[1] Copyright protection for works published prior to January 1, 1978, was increased by 20 years to a total of 95 years from their publication date.

This law, also known as the Sonny Bono Copyright Term Extension Act, Sonny Bono Act, or pejoratively as the Mickey Mouse Protection Act,[2] effectively "froze" the advancement date of the public domain in the United States for works covered by the older fixed term copyright rules. Under this Act, additional works made in 1923 or afterwards that were still protected by copyright in 1998 will not enter the public domain until 2019 or afterward (depending on the date of the product) unless the owner of the copyright releases them into the public domain prior to that or if the copyright gets extended again. Unlike copyright extension legislation in the European Union, the Sonny Bono Act did not revive copyrights that had already expired.

So for a single-authored work composed in 1923 or later, it's the life of the author +95 years.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: GUEST,999
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 01:46 PM

``I thought that the Guest's post "I sit corrected. Please point out which section you want me to look at. I`m not really interested in reading the whole thing. Thank you )O righteous one)" was deserving of some rebuke.``

In turn I thought that

``Wrong. 999.`` Was equally worthy of some rebuke. Been too many from that guy. Think of it what you wish.

Subject: RE: Help: Copyright? help
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 06 Jan 11 - 03:17 PM

Further explication of the Bono summary by Jeri, found in Wikilaw; may not be completely accurate. The summary by Jeri, and the following, do not seem completely compatible.
(The 'officialese' from the government publication may not seem so dense after reading the following).

Has the thrust of the following summary (Wikilaw) been changed by subsequent modification? Someone familiar with U. S. copyright law please comment.

"The Act established the following terms of copyright protection:
-for post-1977 personal works, life of the author plus 70 years;
-for post-1977 impersonal works (works made for hire, anonymous or pseudonymous works), the shorter of 95 years from publication or 120 years from creation;
-for pre-1978 works, 95 years from the date copyright was secured either by publication with notice of copyrighr or in th case of unpublished works by registration.
All of the extended terms apply retroactively to any work in which copyright existed at the time of the Act, and to the works that were retrieved from the public domain by the 1994 law implementing the Uruguay round of the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT).

Another special provision extends the term of works created but not copyrighted before 1978 (i. e., unpublished, unregistered works) by 20 years (by increasing their expiration date from 2027 to 2047) provided the work is published by December 31, 2002. Presumption of common law/state law copyright in pre-February 15, 1972 sound recordings is also delayed another 20 years, from February 15, 2047 to February 15, 2067."