'Firing' A Band Member

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: hesperis
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 06:55 PM

When people are in a band together and it works, it is a magical experience. If it later starts falling apart, there is still an emotional connection between the members of the group. That connection can lead to a lot of pain when it's not working out. That connection is what makes good music when it is working.

It sounds to me that you would like to make this work with the singer you have, because it was good once.
Yes, music is a business, but music is emotional as well.

The mother has nothing to do with the issue, except that the girl may be dragging her rebellion into the band.
If the mother uses her friendship with you to pressure you into keeping her daughter in the band, she is not a true friend. I am sorry to say that.

It is amazing how many people do not realize that music isn't just a toy, and that you need to behave professionally. I know a good guitarist, who is 3 years older than me. I asked him to play for me, and he said that he had to be in the mood to play. He calls himself a musician?!!!
Like, hello! If you start to play, you often feel like playing. The magic is there some times, and some times it's not. But you still play!!!!
Why don't people know that?

(You know, it's probably the same people as the ones who think that creative arts aren't "work". Yeah. Let them try to arrange a piece of music for over eight hours, or practice for five hours straight. Grrrrrrr!!!)

As I said before, treat people as adults, and they'll start acting like it. Either that, or they make the decision to leave on their own.

The real issue here is that the mother is interfering with your management of the band. Both by asking you to lie to her daughter, and by (probably) emotional pressure on her daughter to be in the band.

My dad wanted me to be a "world famous piano player". I love piano, and I stopped taking lessons because I wasn't doing it for me, because he was always in there. I stopped dancing for the same reason. I hid everything I loved away from his influence.
I didn't dance again until ten years after I left my dad to live with my mother.
Music was safe with my mother, thank goodness!

Be very careful.

If you do have to let her go, make it as amicable as possible. Music isn't just business, and she is a human being.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Callie
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 08:38 PM

bert: our group is mainly a cappella. The now-ex-member was always at least a beat behind with his entire part. Couldn't get the hang of the fact that if you miss one note, you should catch up at the next bar. Without him, the trio copes exceedingly well. When we need a bass singer, we borrow one.

Callie

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM

Man, this is a tough one. I think each one of us would actually need to be there and know the individuals involved to be really sure of what to do.

In general though, I'd say her mother should NOT be involved in ANY of these negotiations. She is seeing her daughter as an extension of her own dreams, and that may be partly why her daughter has not matured very effectively.

I have a father who saw me as an extension of his dreams, and it was hell. The only way I could enjoy doing anything in life was to make sure he had no leverage on it or indeed any awareness of the situation at all, because if he did he would just take over and start trying to orchestrate everything. He still tries to tell me what songs I should sing at a gig (on the rare occasions when he attends one), and he can't write "roses are red, violets are blue, monkeys stink, and so do you" or the equivalent thereof (which he himself will freely admit...his area of expertise is science and technology...he's very good at that).

The mother of this young woman has asked you to lie. That should be enough to count her out of the process completely. I've seen where that sort of BS leads and it leads to nowhere good.

The girl should be treated like an adult, which is to say that the whole band should have a talk with her, and make it absolutely clear what problems exist, and what the band's concerns are. Give her a full chance to deal with that on an equal adult level. And listen to her concerns...if she is willing to express them. If she isn't, I see little hope for her continuing in the band.

If you are correct that all she is in it for is the attention...and if she is not willing to change that...then you will have to fire her at some point. If that causes you to lose her mother's friendship...well, that would indicate to me that her mother is not too mature either, and maybe you won't be losing much...if you know what I mean.

I would hate to be in your position. I would also hate to be the one to steer you wrong...so go on your own gut feeling and do not let others manipulate you through guilt or anything like that. Be honest and forthright.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 12:25 AM

Ahh, Show Business!

I truly hope we will get to hear how it turns out. Many of us have been / will be in a similar situation. Thanks for a fascinating thread. == Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: JedMarum
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 08:31 AM

ah, and if she were only a Mudcatter you could simply show her this thread!

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Willie-O
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 09:20 AM

Dear Abby...

nothing pisses off band members who are meeting the leader's/groups expectations than having the interests of the band subordinated to the leaders desire to please a non-band member. (Like someone's mother, or a hanger-on).

I speak from experience...

Willie "you can't fire me, I quit" -O

Good luck, there.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Bert
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 10:45 AM

Ah yes Callie, sorry I misjudged your posting. That's one of the problems I have with the web, I always 'make up' the rest of the story to fit in with my own experience, and usually get it wrong.
And it also never occurred to me that someone could be quite that bad as to sing along one note behind everyone else. That's just awful.

Bert.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Callie
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 11:24 PM

IT WAS EXCRUCIATING!!!! He had to go. That's all there was for it.

I guess that's the bottom line. Once you get to the point that the musical experience becomes excruciating, you'll do something about it! We did!

Callie

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,thechicksinger
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 05:15 PM

Thank you, flattop for sticking up for us chick singers who don't play another instrument. Or maybe we do but we can't sing and play at the same time and the singing is better anyway.

Some people think that since "we can all sing," that singing doesn't take any practise. All I know is I've been taking voice lessons for years and it's my voice that gets the compliments, not usually the others that I often sing with.

As to the issue of the thread, Gervase got it right, if there's no joy, there's no bloody hope. In a band, everybody must be pretty close to the same page in attitude or it'll never work.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 09:33 PM

Make her the boss. Let her make all the tough decisions. Let her decide what the band is going to sound like, act like, and present itself. Put her in charge.

Doesn't sound like such good advice? Unfortunately, if you can't talk to her about her problematic behavior you've already done all of the above.

Be nice. Be honest. She's your band mate, so give her the benefit of the doubt; maybe she doesn't see what is obvious to everyone else in the band (Your opinion is shared by other band members, isn't it? You've talked about this? If not, there might some other work you have to do here. You might have to consider your own motives. Just a possibility)Give her a chance to fix what she's doing wrong. She added to the band once, there's no saying she can't again. You might be an important part of her "growth process". Mostly, treat her like you'd want to be treated if it was you screwing up. Next time, it may be.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: guinnesschik
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:41 AM

Any progress reports on this? Let us know, please, as we wish you much luck.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: Branwen23
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:19 PM

refresh....

I, too, am interested to hear the outcome.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:40 AM

It sounds like you have made up your mind already on this, by are holding off because of "friendship". I would just say that the mother's friendship may have been motivated by the desire to keep her daughter in the band--especially since she pulled the "keep her, even if you have to lie to her" routine--

Attitude and commitment matter much more than talent, and most bands hit a glass ceiling because not everyone has the same attitude or commitment. Though you may not see it yet, this person and her mother are tearing your group apart. Things will seem much better the day after they leave--

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: GUEST,A. Noni Mouse
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 12:44 PM

UPDATE: The firing was still done as nicely as possible, and I still have both mother and daughter as friends.

Without dwelling on the negative aspects of Girlchild's performances, I wrote two e-mails, one for daughter and one for mother. In daughter's, I expressed a concern for her schoolwork, and the fact that she seemed to be spreading herself too thin. I gave her an invitation to come and sing with us as a "special guest star" at certain gigs.

In mother's I explained to her why I did as I did. I didn't want to lie about what the band is doing, I simply wanted all to be happy with the inevitable fact that daughter cannot work with us full time any more.

Ugly things were said.

Tears were shed.

But, logic won the day, and I think we're all happpy with the outcome.

Thanks, 'Catters, for all the good advice and concern.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:41 PM

Good.

Thanks for letting us know what happened.

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: tar_heel
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 01:55 PM

GROW UP!!band members are a dime a dozen.......fire this spoiled brat or you will spend the rest of your life going through this B...S...!!there is no such thing as a COMPLETE band ,forever........deversity is what a band is all about,or just disband and forget it!!you'll be glad you did ,in the long run!i had to fire a good friend of mine,excellent lead guitar player,right before a performance one night.he thought he was expendible and thought we could not do a show without him....but he soon learned that guitar pickers are a dime a dozen ,too.......he has now gone on to bigger and better things,his own band,all kinds of stuff.........to this day,he thanks me for giving him the boot and setting his aim in life with his music....straight!!

Subject: RE: 'Firing' A Band Member
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 04:34 PM

There are some that don't go on to bigger and better things, and are bitter for the rest of their lives (though they were probably bitter about something else when they joined the band)--