lost verse, Scarborough Fair

Subject: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:09 AM

I've been singing good old Scarborough Fair recently, but something is missing. All the versions I can find start with "Are you going to S.F.?"

However, long ago and far away I once saw a verse that sets the scene for the song. The verse states that the narrator was on the way to somewhere, and s/he met a stranger who then said, "Are you going to Scarborough Fair?" And that's where most modern versions begin.

Does anybody know the verse I am seeking?

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:22 AM

Hi - a search of our database for [Child #2] (click here) brings up several versions of this song, which is Child Ballad #2. Do any of them have the verse you're seeking?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 06 Sep 00 - 01:47 PM

The earliest "Scarborough Fair" versions seem to be from Yorkshire (Kidson's 'Traditional Tunes' and Broadwood and Fuller Maitland's 'English County Songs'). Steve Roud's folksong index (Roud #12) lists no broadside version of that. The 17th century version is on a Scottish broadside with no imprint, and there's no 'Scarborough Fair' in that version. It's "A proper New Ballad, Entituled The wind hath blown my Plaid away" (ZN821 in the broadside ballad index on my website = Child's A text).

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 01:02 AM

Thanks for the responses, but the songs in the DT aren't quite right. Maybe I'm remembering the first one, the one that starts "Where are you going?/I'm going to Lynn." Maybe the reason I didn't memorize it years ago is that it's about a lady in Lynn, not in Scarborough.

It would be hard to modify the verse and start using it, because what would rhyme with Scarborough?

BTW, the format of that song, in which a third party tells a story about a devil and a damsel, is an older form than the others, where the lady herself does the talking. I have read that there has been tendency over the centuries for ballads to change from the narrative, third peson to the lyrical, first person.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Susan of DT
Date: 07 Sep 00 - 03:41 AM

The devil and the damsel sounds more like child #1:
knight comes to the door
sleeps with the daughter
riddle match
she recognizes him as the devil
he (sometimes) flies away

search for #1

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Funkyfeet567
Date: 29 May 08 - 10:49 PM

Does anyone know the french translation of the song "Scarborough fair"? Please help me, I need it in french for a project.

Can the lyrics be translated into French?

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Howard Jones
Date: 30 May 08 - 03:50 AM

Babelfish comes up with:

SCARBOROUGH JUSTE Êtes vous allant au persil juste de Scarborough, sauge, romarin, et le thym se rappellent que j'à un qui vit là pour une fois elle était un amour vrai du mien

translated back it becomes:

SCARBOROUGH RIGHT Be you active with parsley right of Scarborough, sage, rosemary, and thyme remember that j' with one which lives there for once it was a true love of the mien

I wouldn't recommend using this for your project!

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 30 May 08 - 10:51 AM

That truly is a lost verse!!!

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 05:02 AM

Followed a few leads and they all seem to come back to the same song... which is "The Elfin Knight". Found this on Youtube and it certainly houses some of the Scarborough Fair words.. albeit they have been changed through usage and time.. Have a listen.   The Elfin Knight/Scarborough Fair.          You might also want to read about this in Wikipedia   The Elfin Knight Wikipedia..   Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 11:31 AM

Thanks for the links, Mike.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Mysha
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:28 PM

Hi,

As far as an introduction goes, the first words as I sing them aren't

Are you going to Scarborough fair.

but

Oh, where are you going? To Scarborough fair.

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Tim Chesterton
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 12:39 PM

The version of SF sung nowadays is very short. Simon and Garfunkel did us a great disservice in making a short version so well known! Theirs was five verses, Carthy's was six, and this one from Ewan McColl, which is my favourite, has nine. I like it because it preserves the original 'Elfin Knight' idea that both lovers set each other impossible tasks.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Mysha
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 01:40 PM

Hi,

Yep; that one is close to what I sing. The odd word here and there, like "Tell him to ..." for the second series. And for me the call is "Setherwood, sage, rosemary and thyme". Not all that spectacular in itself, however the different rhythm of that line changes the style of the song.

Bye,
                                                                  Mysha

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: curmudgeon
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 02:35 PM

I first learned Scarborough Fair from Ewan MacColl's version on the Riverside LP of Matching Songs of US and UK. It was followed by Peggy Seeger's rendition of The Cambric Shirt which began with the line, "going to Lynn." The second half,the response, begins, "Where are you going, I'm going to Cape Ann..."

Peggy said her version was from the Southern Appalachians. I later found versions of the Lynn/Cape Ann song in Vol.1 of Flanders' Vermont collection.

But what struck me most about Peggy's version was the fact that Lynn and Cape Ann are next to each other on the North Shore of Massachusetts.

This merely a point of interest. I'll leave it to others to determine how and why an old English ballad migrated to New England and then further afield to points West and South - Tom

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Tootler
Date: 22 Mar 11 - 06:36 PM

I first heard SF as the Simon & Garfunkel version.

More recently, I was introduced to a version in the Northumbrian Minstrelsy where it appears as "Whittingham Fair". It is virtually the same as the version sung by Ewan MacColl which was linked to by Tim Chesterton.

What I sing is essentially the version from the Northumbrian Minstrelsy but as "Scarborough Fair" - I do live in Yorkshire, after all [g]

The versions collected by Child can be found here

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 23 Mar 11 - 08:47 AM

There all sorts of locations named in different versions of Child 2, including (in addition to Scarborough / Whittingham fair): 'Strawberry lane' (Maine), 'Bonny Moor Hill' (Ulster) 'The seaside' (Waterford), 'The Tri-Coloured House' (Leitrim) and 'Yondos Town' (Arkansas).

'Lynn' in North American versions probably derives from the Scots 'Lyne', as in 'Did ye ever travel twixt Berwick and Lyne?' (Child 2F, collected 15 miles South of Glasgow in the 1820s - see Tootler's link above). 'Cape Ann' could have been added later to give local colour and rationalize the reference to Lynn, although Child 2J - from Massachusetts - referes to Cape Ann but not to Lynn.

Helen Hartness Flanders recorded in Vermont a version that began: "Where are you going, I'm going to Linn", but introduced the second lover's tasks with: "Where are you going, I'm going to Japan". All of which makes me think that the location isn't terribly important to this ballad.

The North American versions of Child 2 - usually found there in its 'Cambric Shirt' rather than 'Elfin Knight' form - are mostly from the North East. Unlike many Child ballads, it's relatively uncommon in the Appalachians.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Tim Chesterton
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 12:59 AM

Does anyone know anything about variant tunes? I have Sharp and Karpeles' 'The Crystal Spring' which has a version of Scarborough Fair 'Sung by Richard Hutton (65) at Goathland, Yorkshire, 16 July 1913), but with a completely different tune than the one made famous by Carthy/S&G et al. It's a very fine tune, too, but I've never heard anyone sing it.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 06:21 AM

I've been singing that one for nearly twenty years, Tim! A fine tune indeed - the text has lost much sense of dialogue, but it works for me.

As to the other variants, if we ignore for the moment the Scots 'Elfin Knight' strain and the English 'Sing Ivy' strain, and concentrate on the 'Cambric Shirt' versions, Bronson lists forty, with 14 from England, 23 from North America and 3 from Ireland. Off the top of my head I can think of a few others post-Bronson, from England (the MacColl one), Ireland and the USA. Bronson's list includes just five from Appalachian states (Kentucky and North Carolina), which is small compared to the numbers of some of the other Child Ballads collected in that region. There are eight from New England, and others dotted around in the mid-West, California (where the destination in verse 1 was 'Cadrian') and British Columbia, so this ballad was pretty widespread. Oh, and one version did include yodelling...

Interestingly, only one North American version follows Scots 'Elfin Knight' tradition in having a 'Blow, blow ye winds' refrain. The rest either have variations on 'Parsley, Sage' / 'Savoury Sage' / 'Every rose grows merry in time', or complete nonsense 'Flum-a-lum-a-link' / 'Hickalack tickalack' refrains. It's of course highly possible that the ballad travelled to North America independently from England, Ireland and Scotland.

The versions from England are concentrated in the South West (where Baring-Gould and Sharp were collecting) and in the North East, with five from North Yorkshire naming 'Scarborough', and one Northumbrian version naming 'Whittingham'. There is a different version from Goathland, collected by Kidson in 1891, which has a very good tune albeit not in the Dorian mode like Richard Hutton's. The version Kidson collected from William Moat in Whitby has a very good tune as well.

If you're looking for good variant tunes further afield, I could recommend 'The Tri-Coloured House' from Mary McDonagh, a traveller from co. Leitrim recorded in 1973, and 'The Cambric Shirt' from Sarah Cleveland of upstate New York (but of Irish descent), which is sung very well by her grand-daughter Colleen Cleveland to this day.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Mysha
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 07:03 AM

Hi Tim,

I sing a variant melody. Is there a place where I can compare with that Sharp and Karpeles version? (Or can you PM me for to transfer a scan if you have one?)

Brian: From your list it sounds like most are variants in lyrics. Are they also different melodies?

Bye,
                                                                Mysha

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:27 AM

Mysha,
The version that Tim and I were talking about, as collected by Sharp from Richard Hutton, is here:

Scarborough Fair, Hutton 1913

Following the links on that page will take you to other versions in abc format.

There are many variations in the lyrics, but the principal lovers' tasks themselves are pretty standard (although extra ones seem to have got added over the years). The melodies vary a lot too, although you will often find that versions collected nearby geographically are similar. This was one of the main points of Bronson's research (and of course any serious ballad student should buy all his four volumes from Camsco Music): to analyse all the known tunes for each ballad and, where possible, to group them into families so that - for instance - any resemblances between versions found on either side of the Atlantic might give a clue as to the migratory history of the ballad.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Tim Chesterton
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 08:45 AM

Hmm - Richard Hutton must have sung two variants to the collectors, because that one is slightly different from the one published in 'The Crystal Spring' - recognisably the same tune, but with some differences. I'm assuming the last line is repeated as there are more lines of music than of text? I notice that one was sung by Hutton on July 14th; the variant in 'The Crystal Spring' was sung on July 16th.

Mysha, the melody Brian give is very close to the one I use, but not exact. I'll see if I can scan the version I have in the next day or two and send it to you.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 09:09 AM

I hadn't actually checked that linked page too carefully. The extra line of music looks to me like it's the first line from a different version, possibly some kind of transcription error since I think all the Bronson versions are on that site somewhere. Also the midi version is accompanied by a horribly inappropriate drone, so I think there are technical problems with the site. However, I also learned the version from 'Crystal Spring' many years ago, and - if you cut out the extra line - what's on the website seems very similar to me.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Tim Chesterton
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 11:11 AM

Brian - it's very close, but not identical. Recognisably the same tune, but a slightly different variant of it.

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: Artful Codger
Date: 24 Mar 11 - 04:13 PM

The annoying drone in the MIDI of the Hutton tune is a result of the variant measure markers "a" and "b" being interpreted as chord symbols (lowercase indicates an alternate bass note rather than a chord). You can rectify it by prepending a circumflex in each instance; this indicates that it is simple text to be placed above the staff: "^a", etc. Similarly, the transcriber used S to indicate short breath marks (as described in the note in the header), though in standard usage S is rendered as a "segno" mark. You may be able to fix this by redefining the S macro:
     U: S = +shortphrase+
or, if you prefer,
     U: S = +breath+

Subject: RE: lost verse, Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 07 Jul 11 - 12:35 PM

In reply to Brian Peters-

"If you're looking for good variant tunes further afield, I could recommend 'The Tri-Coloured House' from Mary McDonagh, a traveller from co. Leitrim recorded in 1973"

A version of this featuring Scottish folksingers Alasdair Roberts and Mairi Morrison has recently been recorded and should be released next year (2012).