BS: Fuel crisis

Subject: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:47 PM

I might not be able to get to the Jug on Wednesday because I may have run out of petrol by then. But I fully support the call for lower taxes on fuel. It's a lot cheaper everywhere else you go, so why should we have to pay so much more? Why do politicians always say "If we cut the tax on fuel it will mean less money for hospitals and schools" ? This is public blackmail. They could stop giving money to the "Dome", they could save more money by cutting down on the enormous binges, expense accounts and free travel that they get,they could save money by taking a pay cut like most of us have had to do in the last years (Tory as well), they could save money in many other ways and tax the "fat cats" at a higher level, but they continue with this blackmail. You might ask what has this to do with folk music? Well, there have been many united public outcries at injustice which have been used as a base for popular, then folk music. The miners strike, the poll tax demo's, anti vietnam demo's, Tolpuddle Martyrs, Cornish revolt, Peasants revolt to name justa few. Will we see truckers and others immortilised in song?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 02:51 PM

Only very rude ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt cookieless again
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:07 PM

Sorry to disagree with you eric, but I do believe that the level of taxation should be decided thru the budget and not because interested parties put pressure on governments through protest. Surely thats as much public blackmail. I do not deny them their right to protest although it would probably have had more effect nearer budget time. taxation is all a question of balance -fuel may be cheaper in France where personal taxation is a lot higher. If we put up personal taxation everyone, including pensioners who may not drive will suffer. I go to work on a bus because we refuse to be a 2 car family and it takes me nearly 1 hour to get to work and 2 buses. despite the crisis mothers were still ferrying there kids quarter of a mile to school and cars were still making journeys with one occupant. In the same news bulletin the enviroment agency was waring about future flooding in Yorks - environmental changes caused in part by our love affair with the car -we need to change not strike because prices are rising!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: LR Mole
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM

Goodnight, Octane." "A Fuel Such as I" "Pop goes the Diesel"

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:54 PM

Whatever the rights and wrongs of our reliance on fossil fuels, it has to be recognised that many of our essential services are now based on it. The speed with which these measures have taken effect on these services has highlighted how fragile this balance is, in the face of such an organised campaign. Hopefully a lesson will be learnt from this action.

There are many vulnerable people reliant on these essential services being delivered to their homes, who are being caused great distress by these actions. I would like to think that the people involved in and those who are supporting this action, will spare some thought for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Llanfair
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 03:58 PM

There appears to be very little fuel available here in Mid-Wales, and it seems that people from the west midlands have been coming here over the weekend to fill up their cars.
Great.
They go back to the cities and drive to work and take the children to school, then complain when they have to take public transport.
We have no public transport. The nearest supermarket is 10 miles away, as is the railway station.
I know that it is my choice to live here, and when the fuel runs out we will manage fine, but where do the city dwellers get the idea that they can exploit us and help themselves to our resources for their convenience.
Bron on her soapbox.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Mbo
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:25 PM

Fuel Crisis = Gas Panic!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:48 PM

Oh, but I agree with most things written here. The emergancy services and assistance like home care for the elderly, infirm and disabled should be paramount, Our love affair with the car has got to stop somewhere. But Taxing it out of the hands of the less well off, like the old and infirm and those earning only a pittance while others run about in their gas guzzling 2.5L and bigger engines (I only have a 1.4-more than big enough,I think 1.2L is big enough for a family car)is not going to be the answer, nor is it a move towards a more equal society. We have more people on the breadline in this country than ever before. I've lived in a rural community where there was a bus each way a day if you were lucky, how can people manage there without a vehicle? My kids walk the mile to school come rain,snow or shine. We refuse to let them travel by car and it's quite true that there are countless pointless journies of a few hundred yards all polluting the atmosphere. We go by cycle whenever we can, so are not so dependant on the car. But Icckle Dorritt-you and I have agreed many times, Government in this country is elected by the people to carry out their work in the best interests of the people and high taxation of fuel is obviously not the best interest. It puts up the price of every item we buy, unless it is very locally produced. Far better to invest in a rail infra-structure, send most things by rail to local depots and then use clean burning or electric energy to deliver, as well as building a really safe cycle network as they have in Holland, where more journies are made by cycle than car.And also, though personal taxation may be higher the retail prices of many items in many countries is much lower than ours. They have immense public support and the government should start governing for the people and not for it's and it's "old school tie/ruling classes cronies. Vive La revolution. Cheers. Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Diva
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 05:57 PM

Our nearest railway station is 50 miles. Bet Prescott's got enough fuel in both Jags.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:00 PM

gas guzzling 2.5 engine? hell, my lawn mower engine is bigger than that!! Sorry to be so glib, but, the point is, Everything is relative...to a germ. good health is a type of disease. We bitch like hell at $1.50 gas, but, when I was in Scotland 10 years ago, it was the equivelent of $2.50 per gal. We have had a free ride all these years..now, its time to pay the piper. By the way, I just sold my Motor home, the one with the 454 cubic inch engine. Is that around 8 litres?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 07:48 PM

Damn I knew I shoulda bought a sailboat...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: paddymac
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:09 PM

All governments will find a tax of some form to get whatever amount of funds they think they need. The only real variable from one country to the next is how that burden is distributed. The only effective way to reduce the bite is to rationally reduce government spending. There are usually many seeming "frivolities" such as noted above, and while it is fair to decry such abuses, they generally are only a drop in the bucket. And then there's always the problem of one person's "excess" being the next person's "essential". Ain't democracy, in all its varied forms, grand?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Sep 00 - 08:15 PM

Eric, i don't disagree with aything you say, we need to invest in a transport infrastructure expand the railways open up the canals build more pipelines but mainly discourage people away from the car Certainly those in rural communities have a right to expect affordable petrol, but there are people in my street who would not contemplate walking half a mile to the newsagents .Buses today have passed empty and yet queues of cars have been forming outside of garages. We have to educate people into choosing alternative methods of transport -sharing journeys expanding bus routes. But how do you stop them using the car - well frankly by either increasing road tax or putting up petrol prices I don't think there is any other way.Give VAT concessions to small businesses and farmers if you wish, but in the time honoured method of no gain without pain -keep tax on fuel and leave the car at home. (Businesses are not slow to spot a market -I do think that if the market for public transport increases then we will see better transport in rural and urban communities very quickly - I sight the reported increase in passenger train use since privatisation.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:48 AM

In the time honoured fashion, hikes in fuel costs are just passed down to the general public anyway. The people involved in organising this action know this too. The whole point of this action is political.

These hard-up folk seem to have plenty of time to spare, to hang around fuel depots. Instead of trying to earn their living. They also seem to be able to afford and obtain the fuel to waste, aimlessly driving around our major roads.

I think possibly they are going to be the first victims of their own efectiveness and be stranded without fuel themselves, far from home.

I can feel a song coming on.........

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:53 AM

Fuel crisis.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Auxiris
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 03:59 AM

I wasn't really planning on adding anything to this discussion, as those of us who live year round in this holiday paradise known as France now have this year's fuel crisis behind us. However, I'd like to make a few comments after all. First off, I don't know what gives anyone the idea that fuel is cheaper over here as some types of petol are fast approaching the 8 French francs a litre mark and the price of domestic fuel for heating has tripled over the last few months. Now, this strike business. . . it's not something that only happens once in a blue moon. Of course I agree that people need to be able to strike for better wages, working conditions and so on. . . . but all the time?? If it's not the truck drivers and all their "road professional" chums (such as taxi, ambulance and tour bus drivers, etc., etc.) blocking fuel depots and refineries, it's the train drivers on strike and if you depend on the trains to go to work, for example, you can't go and tough if it costs you your job. If it's not the train drivers, then it's the postal workers and too bad if you don't get your tax declaration sent in on time, you end up paying 10% more as a late penalty. If it's not the postal workers, it's the trash collectors and so what if it ends up all over the streets, it stinks and there are rats everywhere? If it's not the trash collectors, then it's the hospital personnel and God help you if you happen to be in hospital right then with something serious. If it's not the hospital personnel, well then maybe it's the school teachers and the children who ought to be in class loose a couple of weeks to a month and fall way behind in their studies and have to make up time at the end of the school year. And if it's not any of the above, it's the air controllers and/or the airport personnel and everyone's grounded. . . I'm sure you get the picture This strike-at-the-drop-of-a-hat stuff and the fact that it makes hostages out of lots of people who have absolutely nothing to do with this or that social conflict (that's what they like to call it) is one of the most difficult things---after the language, of course---to deal with over here. And it isn't just once in a while, it's ALL THE TIME. There was another big fuel shortage two years ago when the truck drivers had not only blocked both fuel depots but stranded a lot of truckers from other countries in France. Remember all that? and now that they've found out how effective it is, it certainly won't be the last. On the other side of the coin, I must admit that strikers certainly aren't entirely wrong, given that the people supposedly running this country let things degenerate to the point where the folks out there trying to scratch a living in France where one's income is taxed to the tune of about 45-50% feel that the only thing left to do is put on a strike in order to be heard.

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Patrish(inactive)
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:30 AM

Today,if I had to come by bus I would have to leave the house at about 6.30am catch 2 buses (that run to a peculiar timetable - you know the sort - no buses for ages then three at once)I'd still have a lengthy walk after that and I cannot be sure that I would arrive on time. It would cost me three times as much in bus fares than it would at the current rate of petrol, and it would take 4 hours a day extra travelling time (thats 20 hours a week - nearly a whole day wasted).I want to see petrol come down in price, but if public transport worked I'd use that. I have only been driving for three years(the only one in the family that drives), before that we walked or bussed everywhere, and I can tell you from grim experience that I have probably spent more time waiting for buses than actually travelling on them. When I passed my test it was like a gift of freedom.
Patrish

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Astorkhan
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:45 AM

Well, being a french resident as well, i must say that this country has lots to learn about preventing rather than curing a conflict. It often ends up making the symptoms disappar, but the illness is still lurking...What is most objectionable is this hijacking of one of the most important feature of our societies: mobility. Being an environmentalist by trade, the environmental crisis is not due to mobility. it is due to the way it is glorified and thought as a necessity. Power games strongly depend on this. The trucker strikes in Europe are indeed a power game. Unions should think twice when they show this aspect of their action. They should remember that they are a negoviation intance, not a political party...

In the US of A, I seem to remember that trucker unions (and others) are at the origin of the train decline. But this might be a historical mistake and i am sure that the car making lobby and the gas companies are not totally innocent in that decline.

Anyway, one question: is there somewhere in the mudcat universe, somebody who knows (about) a folk song that refers to the truckers and their "good roadly manners"? I heard (about) trains, horse carts of many kinds, long walks (how do you call pilgrimage?) in francophone, anglophone and hispanophone traditions, but truckers seem to be limited to "country" music...

Sorry about the few barbarisms included in this message...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 05:55 AM

"It's clean clear to flag town, good buddy, looks like we've got us a Convoy!!!"

Anybody else think Kris Kristofferson fell between two stools?

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 07:40 AM

In the "good ol' USA, trucks didn't have squat to do with the decline of rail and in fact at one point, many railroads were profiting from increased truck transport. Rail decline had far more to do with bad management and government subsidies.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:09 AM

I can't cite sources for these opinions, but my understanding about the decline of rail in the US has always been that there were three root causes.

Trucks had an advantage over rail because, first, the rail unions were powerful enough to get high pay and lots of benefits, but since most long-haul truckers are independant owner-operators, and could charge whatever the market would bear, they had lower costs than the railroads. Added to this, railroads had to pay the costs for constructing and maintaining their track themselves, while the highways were built and maintained by government, with the cost spread over the whole population. That also gave the trucks a price advantage. Thirdly, the US is big enough that it can take two or three days to get from one place to another, within the country, by rail, so people turned to air travel for longer trips in-country that they would previously have done by rail, even as they turned to private automobiles for shorter trips. The railroads lost most of their passenger business.

Now, of course, commuters are taking two hours for what should be a half-hour trip on an uncrowded highway, because of congestion, and the airlines have turned into flying concentration camps whose departures and arrivals can't be relyed on. We need the railroads badly, but they're mostly gone.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:09 AM

Utah Phillips tells a story about an aged hobo who couldnt climb into a box car anymore, so, he commited suicide. He laid down on an Amtrak rail and starved to death.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:13 AM

Today the streets of Edinburgh were clammed up by farmers and hauliers. So I took the train. It took me 30 minutes longer to get to my gig than I would have by car in normal times, and cost me £13+ rather than £4. Can I check I've got this straight? At a time when farmers need every daylight hour, and every drop of diesel they can find, a group of farmers have shut off the supply of diesel to themselves. Also involved are a group of hauliers, whose cutthroat pricing and mutual undercutting has shaved their profit margins to the bone, so they need every load they can carry. In search of a higher profit margin, the two groups have decided to cause me and millions of others massive discomfort, loss of income and and time, general aggravation and worry, and added various levels of increased risk. The farmers and hauliers expect me to be annoyed not with them, but with the Goverment. I am already annoyed with the Government, over various matters. Now I'm annoyed with the farmers and hauliers too. In what way am I being benefited by all this?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Auxiris
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:31 AM

Hello, Ewan. . . I can certainly appreciate what you say since the first edition of our storyteller festival was destroyed by fuel blockades last week in France. The blockades went up the night (Monday) before the festival began and by Wednesday there wasn't a drop of petrol to be had, at least not for anyone not driving a "priority" vehicle, as any petrol stations that had any fuel left had by then been requisitioned. Our non-profit organisation had hoped for enough income from festival attendance to start paying a part-time (perhaps eventually even full-time) employee. We don't yet know if this will now be possible so the blockades have probably cost one more job. . .

Aux

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bagpuss
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 10:36 AM

Could you believe this??!!

Just when theres not a drop of petrol in Leeds, we manage to get a split in our fuel tank, and all our petrol is on the road!!

If the government wants to end this quickly, it should agree to some sort of tax rebate for people who have to use a large amount of fuel in earning a living.

KT

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GMT
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:25 AM

That's really tough Bagpuss.

On Monday I'm 'supposed' to be taking my beloved away to Betsw-Y-Coed for four nights for her fortieth birthday.

Some hopes, and it's already paid for.

I suppose while the suns still shining they'll be happy to sit and ruin everyone elses day.

Ewan is right the whole thing is a bit counter intuitive.

Gary

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GMT
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:26 AM

That's really tough Bagpuss.

On Monday I'm 'supposed' to be taking my beloved away to Betsw-Y-Coed for four nights for her fortieth birthday. We live in Bedford.

Some hopes, and it's already paid for.

I suppose while the suns still shining they'll be happy to sit and ruin everyone elses day.

Ewan is right the whole thing is a bit counter intuitive.

Gary

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GMT
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:27 AM

Oops. Sorry

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 11:59 AM

My Dear misinformed friend Midchuck, Trains quit being profitble almost as soon as they were invented,In FACT,if it were not for trucks,they would all of ended up in the scrap heap years ago. By this I mean if it were not for government subsidies,they would have gone out of buisness. Where did these Govt. subsudies come from? Highway use tax.Paid by whom?? Truckers.So the money we were paying to supposedly maitain our highways, were instead going to the railroads to keep them afloat, so that they could provide some sort of compitition for the trucking industry.Haul the same freight cheaper,so in essence,we were paying our competitions wages so they could steal our money.DUH!!As far as lowering fuel prices, Or giving us a tax break,Well,in the past year fuel has risen by 38%to 45%. Because fuel is our major expense second only to tires, that computes into taking away 28% of my net profit.Would you be able to survive if your boss decided to pay you 28% less???We(the independent Truckers/ small buisness owners),are trying to have legislation passed that will place a mandatory fuel surcharge on all shipped items to defray some of these incured costs util such time that the transportation costs(freight rates)increase accordingly so that we can again see profit in our interprise.Folks I've been in the Trucking buisness all of my life,I've seen good times and bad, but I've never seen it worse than it is now.The used truck market is flooded with all the Owner/Operators,and small trucking companies going out of buisness,it won't be long until the only people hauling freight are the major trucking companies.There are only three major trucking companies.If they have control over all the freight moved then they can set their own prices,and the price will be paid!and that will be passed on directly to the consumers This isn't going to be a gradual thing folks. If trucking loses the free interprise systems that have been able to keep the prices down all these years. We'll all pay a dear price.Good Gawd! I was only browsing, I hadn't meant to add anything today,but once you get me goin' well.... Anyway I've gotta be in L.A. in the morning with my load so once again I'll kiss the wife and my boys and off I'll go.Thanks again Catters for lettin' me go off like this but hopefully someone will have gotten some insight from the message I've tried to relay.Lotsa Love, -Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,-Biskit-
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:01 PM

Hey! who took my cookie???!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Grab
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:05 PM

In Cambridge, damn near everywhere seems to have stopped selling petrol. A friend at work went looking for half an hour or so, and couldn't find a single petrol station selling unleaded. Apparently a few are still selling super-unleaded, and more are still selling diesel, but there's very little standard unleaded left. She said that at one garage, the owner advised her to use normal 4-star instead, but not wanting a £600 bill for a new catalyst, she declined!

Eric, there's a bit of misunderstanding here. The government is no longer funding the Dome - this comes out of the lottery funds (although granted it was government money that got it built in the first place). When the lottery was first set up, the government decided (quite rightly, IMO) that hospitals, schools and other "core" areas shouldn't be funded out of lottery money, cos the moral grounds for this are rather dubious - "bet more to get better healthcare" doesn't sound like a good policy to me, and it wouldn't have helped their popularity any.

Why should you have freely-available cheap petrol anyway? I love those folks you see driving around in big 2-litre cars on their own, or in smokey VW vans, with Greenpeace stickers on the back! Apparently conservation and environmentalism is something that only happens in Brazil...

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Biskit
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:12 PM

Whew! got my cookie back. Oh well gotta go.-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 12:13 PM

Bagpuss, I'm a common criminal. I'm in Leeds, and I've got two gallons of unleaded in cans, which you can have gratis, when you've cured your leak (Use Leakfix, by Plastic Padding, it's reet good), just because you're a Mudcatter, and I like you!

Skipjack

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Ickle Dorritt-given up with the cookie
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

I like to think there is a positive side to everything and yes, low and behold the local Shell garage which has no fuel left is flogging off its Cornettos for 25p each!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

I'm with Eric on this one. There comes a time when you just have to say ebough is enough and for the small haulage companies (often one man businesses ) and farmers,particularly livestock farmers the current rate of tax on fuel is putting them straight into the bankruptcy courts. If they are using their small ammount of remaining fuel to protest it's because they need to reduce the price in order to survive. Personally I would find the 13 mile journey to my work extremely difficult by public transport and will be very inconvenienced by this crisis but I still stand in support of the protesters and am horrified bythe Thatcherist statements issuing from a so called labour government about not being bullied by illegal blockades and pickets. Shades of the miner's strike here! Firstly many of the blockades are not illegal and the police have said they are powerless to do anything. Secondly since it has been widely reported that supplies destined for the emergency services and sanitation plants have been allowed through then the protesters are not putting lives at risk. I also think I would prefer to have this happen now rather than wait for the budget which takes place at a much colder time and let's face it budgets are prepared months in advance so maybe now is just the right time. The people I am most angry with in this are those who are blatently profiteering by putting their petrol prices up to £2/litre. Such action in wartime would have had them shot but that may be a bit drastic!!! And yes I AM cross that I won't be able to come to the session at the Jug!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 02:27 PM

I was suprised at the effectiveness of this action, at first. It has become clear however that the protesters are not responsible for this.

There is little or no threat to the tanker drivers and the union involved is instructing it's members to work normally

It is a very strange dispute indeed when a commercial company do not have the will to deliver their product????????

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM

Oh jolly!! Not to make light of this serious subject but. I am aware that we fund the "Dome" and many other initiatives and smaller charities from our gambling, habitual, hope it will be me this week, lottery money. But We are not asked how it should be spent. Here and where I used to live are a playgroups, they can't get lottery money! They only just manage to exist and they are needed badly. They (Government) can throw millions of "our" money to the "Dome", The national Opera house (£46.000.000) and yet only a pittance to the smaller "good" causes.!! Lottery money has and is going into school as NoFTI (new opportunities funding training initiative) for Computer training,and helped to set up the national grid for learning. I am not saying that what is happening is the best thing going, but how else do the people make the government listen to the wishes of the people?-(Do you want the poll tax back?) I know that there is diversity of feeling on this as there is on many things, but be honest-If the tax on petrol went down (not to be replaced with another form of tax) How many people would send the extra revenue to the gevernment because they didn't support the action? It like the trade unions who (though I don't always agree with how things have happened) strike for a pay rise and every employee gets the rise-nobody says "I didn't strike, don't give it to me". I would use public transport more myself if it was affordable, but it isn't and I have waited for non existant buses and been in places where there isn't a bus today the next one is Thursday. What ever happens, things will get interesting. Cheers (only a little petrol but a bicycle) Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 04:44 PM

600 pounds for a catalytic converter? Man, do you folks over there get shafted! Thats about 6 times as much as you would pay here.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:18 PM

Introduce some kind of device in cars like a taxi-meter, so that as you go along you get a visual indication of how much it is costing you (that'd slow the drivers down as well, and save a few lives).

Bring down the price of public transport so that it's cheaper to use it than to use a car. Use taxes on petrol and road charges to pay for this.

Isn't it interesting to see how the people in the British media and political establishment who normally deplore any kind of industrial action are falling over themselves to back the lorry drivers? I'm reminded of the same kind of lorry owners strike that happened in Chile in the run up to the CIA organised putsch by Pinochet.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Lox
Date: 12 Sep 00 - 08:47 PM

It just goes to show how dependant we are on oil!

What are we going to do to prepare for when it runs out? (in fifty years or thereabouts)

I think that this has been an oportunity to take a look at our comfy cosy "secure" lifestyles, and to realize that it could all come tumbling down around our ears in a moment.

This is a lesson in alternative ways of approaching the way we live our lives from a real and tangible perspective.

I don't have a car, and my bike is doing fine. The problem for me is what happens to our food supply when something like this happens again on a more longlived scale.

All it takes is a couple of well positioned semtex devices .......

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:33 AM

There are so many dichotomies in this "crisis".

A radio poll claimed that 89% of the people being inconvenienced support those who are inconveniencing them.

It costs me £50.00 to fill my tank in UK, £30.00 in France, Germany, Austria and Italy (recent trip to Lake Garda), yet the amount of traffic on our roads is causing serious damage to our quality of life.

I agree with everyone who wants to take the initiative to improve public transport through taxes on fuel, but politicians don't seem to have the balls to grasp the problem (does anyone seriously believe that the Prescott twat could do anything about anything, let alone something difficult).

I would happily pay double the tax on fuel to achieve better public transport and persuade cars off the road.

The government always defaults to the moral blackmail that the National Health Service and education will suffer. The reason for this is that the "free" health service and "free" education are outmoded concepts. Both are monumentally inefficient in usage of money and need to be changed. In times of wartime austerity these two socialist ideals (small "s" as they have been supported by all parties) were the means whereby health and education achieved a step upgrade. Great, but we're not in that situation any more. The private sector can and must be integrated and work in tandem with the public sector if we are to gain a step increase in efficiency appropriate to where we are nowadays, yet successive bodies of politicians resist this - all on idealogical grounds. We'll get nowhere unless someone is prepared to act energetically. Now, who was the last politician to do that?

Cheers, Terry (in "ranting" mode instead of the more normal "reflective")

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: sledge
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:44 AM

Lox, the Oil will run out but in a lot more than 50 years, more is found each day, new techniques for extraction are allways being developed. The most recent figure I've heard is closer to two hundred years so the love of cars will have a lot longer to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:40 AM

I think a lot of people are missing an important point here: the government will take the money from somewhere else if they don't get it from the duty on fuel. You guys on the other side of the Pond - how much sales tax do you pay? In the UK we pay 17.5% - that's
seventeen-point-five percent!! - in VAT already; we don't pay it on food or one or two other essentials - yet. Maybe we should raise income tax instead? At least everyone pays according to their means.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:48 AM

So that's all right. Meanwhile the ozone hole gets bigger and the planet is shot to hell.

"Free" education and "free" health service has never been free in the sense it doesn't cost money. But if there's something that everyone needs, why have a system where you get privileged access to it just because you've got more money? How come the more we have the less willing we are to pay for the things we need in common?

These still are "times of austerity" in reality - it's just that we've found ways of putting the burden on the poor of the world and on our children and our children's children, who are going to get by in a devastated planet, thanks to our selfishness.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:08 AM

As long as man is ruled by the allmighty dollar, you will see no change, and we will continue the slide down the slippery slope. An alcoholic is only interested in his next drink. A company is only interested in its bottom line. In a word..GREED.CORPORATE GREED. wITNESS THIS TIRE THING, THEY DONT CARE WHO GETS KILLED, THEY CARE THAT THEY GOT CAUGHT. And, Doug, if the "actor" and his administration hadn't gutted the NHTSB and took away its authority, this would have come to light much sooner. However, this was one of the ways that he "Got government off our backs" Lets them have free rein to do business. Whats a few deaths if we have prosperity?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:10 PM

Steve, put very succinctly-however if you recall from the last election Labour was voted in on a mandate of lower personal taxation- democratically I recall. The fact that the electorate supports an action because they envisage the government will cave and fuel prices will lessen says a lot about society today.i.e I want it all I want it now and if I can get away with not paying for it all the better . Anyway, I am one of the minority who would be happy to see higher N.I. and tax for proper provision in the health service and education and I would insist of compulsory savings toward pension provision. I am afraid when 1 in 4 of working people in this country do not have any kind of non state pension provision then I think it says something about the state of affairs. However, I should think any political party expounding the same would likely lose its deposit (Who are the lib dems anyway)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:21 PM

So we switch to natural gas and put a meter on Cletus. Sorry - I couldn't help myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:50 PM

McGrath, it's just the opposite! Those who have the means to pay for the health and education of their choice are being coerced to remain in the State system, hence absorbing resources that could better be shared among those who can't afford to pay. It makes absolute sense that if you persuade people out of a funded system, there will be more left for those that stay in. The political ideology that refuses to accept that State provision is in any way less than the best, is exactly what is preventing the State provision from achieving its purpose.

And I can't think of many things where you don't get a better crack of the whip if you have more money - isn't that where people get their incentives from?

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 12:57 PM

Gee whiz, Kendall, I didn't do it! The "Actor" did! I just voted for the "Actor."

I have read every line of every posting on this thread, and I vow never again to complain about the cost of fuel in the U. S. In my memory, we have only had one major fuel crisis in this country. People had to line up at service (petrol)stations to buy gasoline. Everybody went nuts! We were paralyzed!

After reading the postings of those who live in France, Great Britain, and other countries in the world, I recognize just how lucky we are here in the US of A.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: oggie
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:32 PM

Ickle Dorritt,

Unfortunately personal taxation is going UP under Labour not down - it's just being collected differently so it does not appear on a Pay Slip as Income Tax. For example a change in the way pension funds are taxed raises billions of pounds for the Government which means that in order to get the pension I hope for I have to put more in (I am self-employed) but it will hit everyone eventually as Pension Fund revenues are hit. We will all pay but you won't notice it on your pay slip. Another example - try persuading the Revenue you are self-employed as, for example, a musician or actor. The logic is that when you perform you work for someone and therefore you are an employee and should be subject to PAYE. The catch is that as an employee your petrol, car, instruments, costs of auditions are NOT tax allowable, you pay then out of your net income!

It's a culmination of things like this that cause long term resentment and I think the petrol issue is just the final, visable straw.

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Grab
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 01:52 PM

Is this just showing how daft modern commuting is? Even Mrs Duck's shortish 13 mile trip into work comes out at 6000 miles a year, making somewhere around 150-200 gallons of petrol a year. And that's not including trips to the shops, weekends out, etc. There's plenty of folks making even longer trips (1-2 hours), and that's totally barking. There's loads of ppl moving to the countryside, knowing full well that they'll need to commute into work and drive most places - I have no sympathy for these guys when they complain "We've bought this lovely little cottage (and priced out local residents) but it's sooo expensive with having to drive everywhere".

One of my requirements when choosing this job was that there were plenty of areas nearby where we could buy a house, so I could cycle to work. Then I picked a house in cycling distance. It took some time to find one at a reasonable price, but that's fine.

Mrs Duck, there may be no immediate problems with ambulances. But the problem we do face is that doctors, nurses and ambulance drivers can't get into work, bcos they've got no petrol (these folks are just as prone to living in commuting distance). Most hospitals are now cancelling non-emergency surgery, so your granny's operation for a hip replacement may not go ahead. If it gets worse, there may not even be the staff to cope with emergency cases. And without petrol, the ambulance service is then going to take a hit from ppl who'd normally get themselves to hospital (or get a partner/friend to drive) - expectant mothers being the prime example.

I'd be quite happy to see tax taken off diesel for bus, coach and rail transport, maybe even taxis - these are "mass transportation". But to encourage more lorries onto the roads by reducing their fuel price - I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks there's too many trucks there already. Get heavy transport back onto the railways, possibly with some decent subsidies (yes I know, but the government's already subsidising lorries simply by building roads!), and that'll zap traffic congestion on motorways. A large proportion of motorway traffic is lorries, and an even larger proportion of motorway tailbacks are caused by lorries (the "overtaking at 1 mile an hour" syndrome). Equally, get ppl out of cars and onto public transport with subsidies.

And the best bit is that getting rid of arseholes commuting hundreds of miles a week (or sometimes a day!), getting heavy transport off lorries and onto railways, and getting ppl out of cars and onto public transport is all good for the environment. Suits me. It seems that ppl have confused the availability of driving with the right to drive - I don't know of any Bill of Rights which says "Every person has the right to burn a tank of petrol a day on pointless travelling, and screw the results". When the petrol's there, fine - when it isn't, quit bloody moaning.

Incidentally, cars contribute to global warming, not to the ozone layer. Ironically, cars actually produce ozone, but since ozone is toxic to humans, it just causes breathing problems at ground level and breaks up into normal oxygen b4 it can get to the high atmosphere to be useful there.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:44 PM

So may people supporting this thing while queing to get their petrol or buying whatever they can get at supermarkets. Why not get down there and support in person? Looks like a few bullies and some children at the moment yet apparently most of the country is behind this. Can't see them though. Will you still be behind it when someone dies as a direct result?
As for farmers how about picketing the supermarkets instead - as I understand it our relentless quest for 'cheaper' food has meant supermarkets passing on price reductions to producers. I would think a Sheep farmer would rather get paid a fair price for his animals than protest about fuel.
Miners strike and the disgraceful treatment of miners at Orgreave (just a mile from here) has no parallel here. There we had unions, discussion and intelligent debate on one side - and a heartless creature cracking the police whip on the other. This time we have bullies cracking the whip with out any thing intelligent to say getting treated with Kid Gloves.
Nice to see that the pensioners got hardly any support when asking for a fair increase in the Pension yet the ME,ME,ME culture that Thatcher gave us is still here
Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 02:44 PM

Well, it seems the protest is still going strong but like has just been said in the end it's a straw that breaks a camels back. Both my kids suffer from asthma from the pollution from vehicles and 10mu particulates are a major cause of this (from diesel).But don't forget the greed of industry that refuses to clean up it's air and water pollution and also that Jet planes pollute terribly and they are already up there five miles high. I want better transportation and moved to be close to work so I wouldn't waste an hour sitting there breathing fumes. In the end after doing two years of sitting in traffic jams, I was diagnosed with asthma. I don't suffer as much now, and cycling certainly is my favourite way of doing 40 miles as long as I'm not breathing the smog. And of course the state health and education systems are not free, but paid from our pockets. Those who have the financial clout have always been better off in so many ways. As the song goes "It's the rich wot get the pleasure and the poor wot gets the blame (or pain) If we move towards a more equal society things might improve-if we educate people to look for the bigger picture (this is part of it) and less towards greed, personal greed and massive massive immoral (in my opinion)profits then things might improve-I,m not talking communist state here but a move by the very rich towards the lower standards of the poor and a move by the poor away from the standards many are enforced to live. (I know there will always be people who choose to live one way or another but ask a rich person if he would like to be poorer and live the life on the masses he/she will say "On your bike or similar, but ask the poor if they would like to improve their lot and you can guess the answer. I work with some of the most under-privalleged members of society in our area and they are DESPARATE, just a small reduction of their tax burden will help them. I've got a true story about this crisis. My neighbour was queuing like every one else (not me I don't care if I run out) the garage only had 4* leaded petrol left. A guy in an X reg (brand new) Jag started putting leaded into his tank. He filled up the tank and when he was asked wasn't he worried about how much damage he'd do to his car, he turned to my friend and said " I don't care, I'll just buy another new one. Ask someone on £60.00 per week what they think of that. McGrarth, I'm with you on this. I wanted my children to grow up in a better world-not one where they face such an uncertain future. Cheers for now-not going to play guitar with mudcat tonight! But still supporting. Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:42 PM

Well Doug, a lot of people voted for "The Actor". I didn't, and I'm convinced that history will show that he was a likeable airhead who did tremendous damage to us in the form of trillions of dollars down the rat hole. And all that after promising to balance the budget! He never even SUBMITTED a balanced budget! He ran us trillions into debt, lied about arms for hostages, lied about Iran contre, and they name an airport after him. Slick Willie gets a blow job, and the hypocrites want to hang him!! For Krissake, what is wrong with our priorities?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 03:49 PM

Skipjack - that would come in REALLY handy if we manage to get the car fixed before the Otley festival....

Please tell me it wasn't a joke??????

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bagpuss
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 04:05 PM

Second thoughts, we need 4 star, not unleaded. Never mind :-)

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 04:22 PM

"And I can't think of many things where you don't get a better crack of the whip if you have more money - isn't that where people get their incentives from? "

A lot of the time it's true of folk music, and the culture that has grown out of the revival. And it's true of the Mudcat, as part of that. Yeah, I know you can but posh seats and all the CDs you want and stay in comfier hotels at folk festivals if you've got the loot. And you can buy some beautiful instruments. But basically we're all in the same boat. And money as an incentive to most people learning to play a fiddle or? You must be joking.

And I think it's also true of a hell of a lot of important things that people give their lives to. We believe too much of what we see in the mass media, and the mass media is obsessed with money as the measure of all things. But outside the spotlight real life is going on, and money, while handy enough, (and it's decidedly inconvenient if you've got too much of nothing,but not the be all and end all. When was the last time you found yourself saying "it's only money"?

And DougR - "only had one major fuel crisis in this country." So the hole in the ozone layer, or the Exxon Valdez and so forth don't count as crises...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Penny S.
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:33 PM

I seem to remember that last time there was rationing. This time it's the devil take the hindmost. I've got enough for two days journeys to and from work, past two garages, neither of which is on the priority list. I think teachers are supposed to be essential, after health workers, but there's no way to organise this. "Here's my red pen! Look at these worksheets! These exercise books!"

What really gets me is TB almost quoting MT that protest and demonstration isn't any part of this country's democratic tradition. Tyler, Cade, Trelawny, all those Cornish rebellions, the Pilgrimage of Grace, Chartists, Tolpuddle martyrs, Captain Swing, the Ancient Order of Foresters, Joseph Arch, Pankhurst and Despard - what were they? (short list) - that's what you get for not being brought up in a Labour household.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Gervase
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 05:44 PM

Hey, let's take a reality check here, guys
So, this is supposed to be the most effective popular uprising since...
Since when, in fact? Since the miners' strike, when real livelehoods were very much at risk, when communities were divided and when real people were getting really hurt in many ways?
No, I think not. My impressions (and I'm a cynical old hack who worked for 12 years for the Daily Maill group) is that the Daily Mail Group - aka HM official opposition (because Tory Central Office in Smith Square won't even declare an amnesty on office farts without the say-so of Mail editor Paul Dacre) has decreed that this is how to get at the government.
As a result, many clearly genuinely aggrieved owner-driver hauliers find themselves on picket lines with the worst of the anti-Euro federasts and members of the British National Party, all united in their efforts to embarrass the current government.
God knows, it needs to be embarrassed - but not by the rag-tag-and-bobtaill army of lunatics that is doing its best to bugger up the country.
Sorry about the rant...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:41 PM

major story in Washington Post this morning was about Europe/Great Britain fuel crisis... Click here wow! 80% tax...Having gone thru something similar here 20 years ago, I sympathize. We in the USA have relatively cheaper fuel (so far)...but the size of the place means we would REALLY suffer if it went to $3-4 a gallon...I know many people who drive 2-4 hours a day...and some do much more.

Makes you wonder what the world would be like if most of the petroleum reserves were in _____ or _______ or heaven forbid, even _______!!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Catrin
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 06:47 PM

Bill D - I'll swear that's maggie thatcher (spit) on that bike (you know the one inthe picture that comes up on your blue clicky..........

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 09:42 PM

Scuse, McGrath of Harlow, bad choice of words on my part. I should have used the word, shortage. A fuel shortage. Was not referring in anyway to a environmental subject. Just had to get in line to buy gasoline.

And Kendall, you may hear me criticize Democrats, but you'll never hear me criticize blow jobs! And I don't support the death penalty by hanging either of anybody!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 13 Sep 00 - 11:03 PM

Sorry about the gutter language, but, I do get carried away at times. In my area, the republicans are running an ad based on that remark Gore made about the internet...ok, fair enough, now how about the Democrats running an ad based on George W.'s comment about the reporter? Will they stoop that low? Or an equal to the RATS ad? I doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 02:14 AM

Good points Gervase. I have had personal experience organising official industrial action, within a major oil company. It is fair to say that I do not recognise the oil companies current considerate and understanding reaction to an unofficial picket line?

Public opinion has been slow to pick up on the realities of this dispute. I would like to think that this will change, when they see the dishonesty of this bogus 'popular' campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 07:44 AM

I do not think that we will ever get to the bottom of what I also believe to be a bogus dispute, because let's face it on every level the mediai in this country are a sham.Even the BBC have debased itself over recent years and there are better levels of journalism in hello magazine. As a loyal labour non Blairite, I have to say that a lot of this is to blame on spin. The press no longer take any notice of government sources convinced that the info has been spun out of control. Its a case of what comes around goes around.Oggie, the result of giving people the choice of more pounds in their pocket has to have a negatve effect on indirect taxation. Governments don't give money away they simply redistribute cost through other channels -the choice of which is given to us through our right to vote. In times of lower inflation a lower tax rate was probably the right choice to make. regards Terry K's point on the NHS, are you saying everyones taxes should pay for the training of doctors and nurses pay for the infrastructue and yet those with money can rise to the top of the queue. Private health companies want ot build clinics in the grounds of NHS hospitals -why is that I wonder???

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:24 AM

Someone once said "The public be damned."

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GUEST,Michael in Swansea
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 08:58 AM

The list of "priority" petrol stations may be found at, (sorry can't do clickies), http://www.sky.com/invision/petrol
Hope this is of use.
M

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:19 AM

Well after careful husbanding I finally got down to the red line on my tank last night so It was a brisk walk to the station this morning! Only drawback is I won't be able to go to the folk club tonight to sing songs of protest as it's too far to walk.

Shambles and Dorrit have the right of it. We are being held to ransom by (to quote Steve Bell in the Guardian) some "fat disgruntled gits against everything". These are the same folk in badly maintained trucks who weave about on motorways. Yes I know it's their livelihood but there is a planet to consider.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: oggie
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:28 AM

There is no such animal as 'indirect taxation' - someone still pays the tax! My objection is that 'direct' taxation is in many cases fairer because everyone can see what is happening and it is directly progressive, 'indirect' taxation tends to be skewed and hit certain groups disproportionately - for example the rural poor (not all country dwellers are rich farmers).

Transparent taxation gives an opportunity for a discussion on priorities with prices attached, a shift to indirect taxation also helps conceals where money is being spent, out of sight, out of mind.

As a lifelong member of the Labour Party I find a world in which Roy Hattersley is portrayed as on the left of the party more than a little disconcerting! Media spin is part of the problem, perhaps the bigger problem is that we have an authoritarian government, of predominantly professional politicians, which believes in that spin and which listens to non-representative focus groups and advisers who do not reflect the world outside government.

Sorry for the rant

All the best

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:17 AM

What you folks need is a good old fashion Boston Tea Party...we can show you how to organize one..

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Bagpuss
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 10:53 AM

kendall, are you suggesting that we dump a load of oil in the sea? ! Or just that we have a party?

;-)

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:11 PM

But wasn't the Boston Tea Party actually a protest against a government bringing cheap stuff into the country, which would have caused problems for some local businessmen?

I mentioned the Chile truck-owners strike that was part of the build up to the 1973 Chile putsch here is a link to an article which puts this in context

Not that I see Tony Blair as any kind of an Allende figure. But I think we are being conned into not recognising that all this is being manipulated by the petrol companies as a way of upping their profits at the longterm expense of everyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 01:33 PM

Just curious. How do you, our British Mudcat friends, feel about your PM's stance on the petrol tax? He is obviously getting a lot of pressure to reduce the tax. Should he stand firm on his current stance?

Also, there has been mention of the British media. Are they usually pro or con Tony Blair, and what is their take on his current stance?

DougR

P. S. Kendall, stop trying to incite a civil war in Great Britain! :>)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Melodeon
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:03 PM

I really have been too angry to respond to this thread so far but now I feel much better and just a little vindicated. I think what may have started out as what the protesters saw as a legitimate ( although self centred ) protest was hi jacked by the extreme right and the lunatic fringe, and I don't think the oil companies did anything to alleviate the situation.(Am I being too cynical when I suggest that they deliberately waited until the whole country was virtually dry and then raised their prices).Of course the Govt must NOT back down or we shall all sorts of pressure groups trying the same tactics. one wonders how many of these truckers would be willing to pay less in fuel tax but more in income tax, which is much fairer. As a nurse and a parent I like having more spent on hospitals and I am pleased that my daughter's school has more teachers and more resources than it had three years ago. I also wonder where the truckers and the farmers get their fuel from to blockade the roads ( have the police tested the vehicles to see if they are running on red DERv(tax free fuel sold exclusively for off road agricultural vehicles). While we're on the subject of the police would they have been quite so pally with the protesters if they had been wearing miners helmets (if you can find any nowadays)

Viv (now getting off soap box)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: kendall
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 03:12 PM

They already had one Doug! Lets hear it for the Roundheads!! No, I'm not suggesting dumping oil, but, if the whole country could stop buying petrol for one day it would send a message. It worked here with sugar when the price went out of sight. According to the history I was taught, the Boston tea party came about because King George 3rd had levied a tax on it. And the colonists refused to pay it. In all fairness to poor George, all he wanted was some financial help in paying for the soldiers who were sent here to protect the colonists from the indians. As I recall, England was at war with France, Spain and Holland. As we have learned in later years, enemies are expensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:45 PM

Kendall, your historical recollection coincides with mine, but then we are both old farts who studied history in school many moons ago. They probably have revised history many times since then.

I really do feel for our friends in Great Britain. I read either in one of the posts, or perhaps it was the morning newspaper that gasoline is $4.50 a gallon there! We bitch about paying $1.50. Course I can remember when it (Regular) was .30 a gallon or less too.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 06:59 PM

One of the main differences in the efficiency of this dispute compared to the earlier strikes mentioned in this thread, is the mobile phone (and the Net).

Interesting to speculate on the outcomes of these, if the moble phone had been invented earlier?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:09 PM

Sorry to be thick, Shambles, but I don't follow. What does the mobil phone have to do with it?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:18 PM

If the miners had had mobile phones, they'd probably have been counted as offensive weapons, and proof of conspiracy.

DougR - the media here have been overwhelmingly in favour of the petrol blockade. Problems for essential swervices, hospitals cancelling operations, schools shutting down, nurses unable to make housecalls to cancer patients - that's all been the fault of the government.

The people who'd be talking about "holding the country to ransom" if it was the unions calling a srtrike are talking rapturously about "people power"; the unions have been trying to persuade people to call of the protest and get back to work.

And the very same people in the media who last week were denouncing the French lorry drivers for doing the same thing, and ridiculing the French giovernment for backing down are now praisingthe English lorry drivers, and calling on the British government to back down.

It's all very bizarre.

But it's a bit frightening, how very vulnerable our whole society is. It's like a bicycle - stop it, and it falls over, just like that. But if you don't stop it, it's headed straight out over a cliff.

(And thanks DougR for your peaceful and courteous response to a crack by me about "fuel crises" that you could well have bridled at.)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 14 Sep 00 - 09:44 PM

I don't make it a practice to be unkind in my postings, McGrath of Harlow. If on ocassion the reader reads it that way, it is not intended.

Thank you for your posts on the fuel strike. Our newspaper hasn't covered the story as completely as the news I have picked up here on the Mudcat.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:00 PM

Doug the protest, in less than 5 days has resulted in the effect that no fuel can be obtained anywhere in the UK. The speed of this action is an entirely new thing. One of the reasons for this is that with everybody and his dog in the UK, now owning a mobile phone, it is now possible for all those involved in protest, to be in immediate contact with everyone else.

Had this form of communication been available, during other, more honest popular protests, like those against the Poll Tax, the course of UK politics would have been very different.

It has been an old type of action with an entirely new type of protester. They have not been elected to speak for, and do not represent anyone, but themselves. Their motives are completely selfish, but they have managed, thus far, to convince the general public that the action has been conducted on their behalf.

They have not accepted that the present government has been democratically elected and will not rest until they bring it down.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: GeorgeH
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 02:19 PM

The main reason the blockade was so effective is that the Government instructed the Police to interpret the law differently to how they usually do!

Oh, and I've not seen it mentioned (on a quick scan of this thread) - what's the logic behind farmers (who get diesel at an almost duty-free price) protesting about fuel tax, Mrs Duck? Sorry, but you left that out of your account.

The "blockade" is the biggest "con" ever perpetrated on the British people, and most of them are deluded into supporting it . . "Hey, Mr Highwayman, you've only taken my wallet and failed to notice I'm wearing these wonderful gold cuff-links . . . "

Perhaps we DO get the Government we deserve.

As for comparing fuel prices with Europe - remember our currency is at an artificially high exchange rate relative to the rest of the continent.

(Why is it that the Germans, with a depressed economy, can afford massive investment in "Public works", while Britain - with the "strongest" economy in Europe - can't?)

G.

---

Duplicate messages zapped. --JoeClone

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 03:53 PM

Eric the Viking
You have children?
I don't and I object to paying for your kids education through my taxes!
By all means take the fuel tax down and let parents pay for their children's education. Suits me fine - what do you think?










Only Joking !!!!!!! but that's how stupid and petty it can get.



On TV tonight one of the Farmers who organized the protest was seemingly close to tears as he showed the crop in his field that he says is ruined. he should have been harvesting it this week but instead was out protesting, now he cannot see how he can pass on the family farm to his children as his business is ruined.
I have lived on a farm, have sympathy with farmers, yet think they have been led astray to protest about the wrong cause. Farmers should be protesting about the low prices they are paid for their produce not the cost of diesel. we the consumers are happy to go to the supermarkets and pay ever lower prices for food and push farmers to the edge. Lets remember that it is hard to do without petrol but doing without food is much more difficult - So if we rely just on imports there could be real trouble ahead!
At the same time there different kinds of farmers. Some are very much businessmen only, large fields, environment be damned, hedges out. Others care deeply about their Farms, the countryside and the local community. The second kind should be supported, subsidized and valued – the first I fear picket oil depots for their own selfish purposes. For subsidy read Maintenance grant, a lot of the beauty of the 'Countryside' has been maintained by Farmers for the rest of us to enjoy. If all Farmers treated the job as purely Business then the Countryside would be as ugly as many industrial estates.
Roger – not at all behind the protest – distressed by a sudden liking of Tony Blair – can I get treatment for that?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 08:23 PM

For some reason I keep on thinking of this song

What you gonna do when the lake goes dry, honey,
What you gonna do when the lake goes dry, babe,
What you gonna do when the lake goes dry,
Sit on the bank and watch the crawdads die,
Honey, sugar baby mine.

A lake of oil. This has felt like a rehearsal for a John Wyndham story. Or maybe Stephen King.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: DougR
Date: 15 Sep 00 - 11:39 PM

Evidently the strike is over, and petrol should soon be more available, right?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:19 AM

The Strike is over Doug. Let the Debate begin
Unfortunately the media is already more interested in Big Brother than other important issues
Farming is in crisis here - I think its bad over there too??With lots of eastern Countries industrialising and requiring oil there could be more trouble ahead as we all want a larger share of this resource
On last nights news there was a car dealer delivering his chilling opinion that we should forget about global warming as its already too late. So it seems like we should live for today and not worry about tomorrow that much
I noticed in Ireland this summer when we shopped at a supermarket that the amount of Irish produce was itemised separately. Perhaps we should have the same here and see how much support British farmers do get in real terms?
What ever happened to supply and demand anyway, I would love to buy some organic fruit and veg locally but it doesn't exist. Organic Food it seems is a little like public Transport, everyone likes the idea of it but no one wants to pay for it
Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:20 AM

The Strike is over Doug. Let the Debate begin
Unfortunately the media is already more interested in Big Brother than other important issues
Farming is in crisis here - I think its bad over there too??With lots of eastern Countries industrialising and requiring oil there could be more trouble ahead as we all want a larger share of this resource
On last nights news there was a car dealer delivering his chilling opinion that we should forget about global warming as its already too late. So it seems like we should live for today and not worry about tomorrow that much
I noticed in Ireland this summer when we shopped at a supermarket that the amount of Irish produce was itemised separately. Perhaps we should have the same here and see how much support British farmers do get in real terms?
What ever happened to supply and demand anyway, I would love to buy some organic fruit and veg locally but it doesn't exist. Organic Food it seems is a little like public Transport, everyone likes the idea of it but no one wants to pay for it
Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:43 AM

It is now known how rapidly the country could be taken over, and the lynch mobs initiated. Unless, of course, the government takes powers to close down the mobile systems. Don't mind me, every now and then I get these paranoid attacks, but then, that doesn't mean there isn't something to be afraid of.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 06:56 AM

Penny, please expand on what you mean by taken over and how?

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: P05139
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 06:10 AM

I'm glad that it's more or less sorted because if they'd stopped the buses, I wouldn't have been able to get to college, and seeing as I'm doing my A Levels thatr would've totally burgered me up!

There must be easier ways to swear at the Government without causing chaos!

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 01:39 PM

Ickle Dorritt wrote

"regards Terry K's point on the NHS, are you saying everyones taxes should pay for the training of doctors and nurses pay for the infrastructue and yet those with money can rise to the top of the queue".

Er, no.

But I no longer get surprised to receive facile criticism from those who wish to jump to inconsequential conclusions about their sacred cows. What I asked was that the public and private sectors work together for the common good, so where the stupidity in the above quote comes from, I am at a loss to say.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 05:47 PM

William Haig, The Leader of the Opposition, today described the protesters as "fine upstanding citizens".

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:03 AM

The Blair twat (ably assisted by the Prescott twat) was utterly inept in his handling of the situation.

One suspects that the Haig twat would have been just as bad. To me, Blair and Haig are completely transposable and would adjust their actions and reactions accordingly.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:31 AM

Haig is a brand of whisky; "Don't be vague, ask for Haig". The fella with the bald bonce and the baseball cap is called Hague. It's like calling Blair Blur. In both cases I can see where the confusion arises.

A pity John Smith died.

But wasn't it lovely and quiet for a few days...

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM

Isn't John Smith a beer?

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 04:54 PM

ooh Terry don't throw a wobbler at me- because it goes completely over my head!

If I have misunderstood your thread where you kindly suggested that it makes absolute sense that those who could afford private health should choose to do so leaving the NHS for those who could not- then please forgive me BUT there is no main provision for a private GP service, private mental health private vaccinations and private childcare on a scale which would benefit this country. the NHS is not a sacred cow to me -(I sell private heathcare for a living) but the provision that it makes is for specialised non acute services and is reliant upon the NHS for our ordinary health provision. Healthcare costs about one hundred pounds a month for a family of four -dragging ourselves back to the fuel strike -if we don't vote to pay higher taxes and we don;t want to pay extra for anything else -give me the odds on the number of people willing to opt for a totally private cradle to grave service. And if you can't then that's where the NHS comes in. (By the way only my dog is allowed to call my comments stupid!)

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: JamesJim
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:17 PM

I have read all of this with much interest and I can no longer keep quiet. Isn't it a riot (no pun intended) how politicians can lead us into a maze, then leave us to find our own way out? I realize that speaking in general terms is sometimes foolish, but I can't resist. Despite the complexity of this issue (Some say the oil companies are to blame, some say OPEC, some say the Government, etc., etc.) 80% tax on anything is absolutely ridiculous!!!! I don't care how "cheap" petro was when all of this taxation began (I can hear the politicians saying, "we can just add a little tax on this low fuel cost and we can provide "free" healthcare for everyone), the fact is, the public is responsible for allowing the tax to reach 80%. When the majority feel they are "entitled" to certain services, this is what we get. Not only a very expense system, but a poor one to boot.

I hope America still has time to learn a lesson from all of this, but there is enough history and evidence to make me doubt it. I truly believe we are our brother's keeper, yet I can't help but despise turning over my resources to an often very corrupt and always inefficient, bureaucratic government to solve problems. In case I'm losing anyone, what I am saying is that taxation beyond providing for highways and defense is stupid.

I like to think I am an optimist (it may not sound like it above). In fact, I truly believe we will find a solution somewhere down the road (again, no pun intended). It may be an alternative fuel that can be produced at home (ha! no such luck), or it may be a group of pioneers jumping onto a spaceship and leaving for a tax free colony on another planet (beam me up, Scottie!). At any rate, this all promises to bring lots of pain for a lot of folks before the problem is solved. Hey, but with pain comes progress. We will survive!

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Terry K
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 02:35 AM

Ickle Dorritt - sorry if my rather pompous outburst caused offence - I have PM'd you to explain!!

McGrath - you're absolutely right, Shambles and I don't know how to spell the name of the Leader of the Opposition! In mitigation, I think it says more about him than about us.

And Shambles - I don't think that what goes out as John Smith's nowadays would qualify as beer.

Cheers, Terry

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Llanfair
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 03:48 AM

Well, after complaining about people from the city visiting the countryside to fill their tanks with petrol, it turns out that our local garage never ran dry.
I only found out yesterday, as I refused to go until I actually NEEDED the fuel.
I did, however , have an interesting conversation with a chap who was one of the picketers. He says that the whole thing started at Ruthin market, when a couple of farmers and a couple of lorry owners got talking. The farmer who organised it all, he says, had a lot of attention from MI5, and has since disappeared. No-one knows where he is.
Urban Myth? Possibly, but curious, nevertheless.
Regards, Bron.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 06:36 AM

Sorry for the prolonged absence from this thread, but I dislocated my ankle on friday and have only just been able to get back to my PC- I am well on the mend after enforced rest and hope to get to the Jug on wednesday as we now have some petrol. What still seems interesting to me despite all the fairly logical arguments and counter arguments put here is that the Government (Like it's predesessors) is still not listening to the voice of the people. The Govenrment is here to run the country on behalf of it's citizens, not on it's own behalf and while I don't agree that it should take popularist stances just to stay in power it should recognise the fundimental difference between representing the best wishes of it's population and Governing for the minority (who seem to have the financial clout)Budgets set out targets and so are supposed to develop the nation in it's financial efforts. So here we have a government that gives tax breaks worth £ millions to business and 70p a week (about $0.5)to the old There have been comments about people who expect to get things for nothing,but none of us get anything for nothing, all things have a price,whether it's "free" education and healthcare or lower taxes.We all pay for these and, ignoring the petty joke of, "I don't want to pay my taxes for your children's education" we support a large polulation who live near and below the poverty line.There is no real reson for this, there is loads of money out there, it's just being held by the few and not the many. (Don't worry Roger-no offense taken) Don't forget that the object is employment is the enable someone else to profit from your labours (in most cases) and I think a fair wage is a good return. However there are many who do not get a fair wage and contribute to massive profits for others ie Shareholders and directors etc-these people take a very high (in comparrison) slice of the cake. They can afford to distribute more to the poorer elements of society who are taxed as heavily as them. The level of taxation is what is unfair. If you have £5,000.00 per month income and compare it to £800.00 a month then what is within your reach is far better than those with much less. Who is to say what a person's true worth is? Am I worth less because I don't sit in a boardroom? Am I worth more because I don't clean toilets? (I don't think there's anything wrong with that-so please don't start!) Politicians very soon forget that they are there to "Represent their constituents"and the government is there to represent it's people. The fuel crisis, though I still support the action,hit everyone and the Government response was very poor. Irrespective of the "plot" between the oil companies, the right wing of politics and the duplicity of the drivers of the tankers, it happened and happened fast. There is still a massive support for the cut of the tax on fuel-those with less income still have much less to spend than the rich and nothing has changed. I still believe that those earning substancially more could be taxed higher and that personal taxation and not indirect taxation should be the way of Governments. Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Penny S.
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:36 AM

I did say I was being paranoid, Jon. (My excuse is that I was, unknowingly, sickening for a bug. I should have recognised the symptom) But someone in the press pointed out how we had gone for the refineries in Kosovo to paralyse the country, and we've now seen how easy it is to do it without bombs, relying on the self-centredness of the population. We have also seen how easy it is to whip up violence and witch-hunt behaviour. This does have me uneasy, jarring the image I have had of the place where I live. I believe Tony Blair is wrong to say that demonstration and protest is not part of British political behaviour, but I have been as guilty of blindness in forgetting the Gordon riots.

I am puzzled by the references to mobile phones as the medium for this. In Portsmouth, there was a contained community where people knew each other. This is more difficult to see applying across the country. You have to know people's numbers, and that they agree with you for this to work. I've been involved in an organised phone tree, and it isn't easy to imagine a spontaneous version.

I don't think that these things were, themselves, a conspiracy beyond their immediate purposes. But they have shown that we are vulnerable to influences which can whip up extreme reactions. And there are people who might like to have that knowledge. Whether they are people with access to the means is another matter.

Since my intemperate, not entirely serious post, a number of other things have made me less than happy. The govt. web site of lists of garages, which someone was able to titivate each day, changing the format from Excel to Acrobat to CSV, never added the list of occupations entitled to buy fuel, which I only found on teletext. Both of these means are not universally available, anyway, which enhanced the word of mouth spreading of inadequate information which led to pointless queueing. The selected garages were not necessarily in places where queues could easily be accommodated. The nearest one to me had a motorway sliproad and a roundabout so that three streams were waiting. I think, from the rate of movement, that the sliproad was given priority. If these were the plans they had for the gulf war, they weren't very good.

There was no limit on the amount of fuel bought. In the circumstances, I feel that there should have been, from as early in the business as possible. I remember rationing. It worked. It should have been part of the current plans. Organising parties in breweries and ways out of paper bags come to mind. Probably the inability of a government (whatever colour) to organise better is most worrying.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:51 PM

Oh I am sure that we should be worrying about this government. They lie and decieve, they twist and turn, they manipulate,they are controllers, not makers of freedom, they do precious little to make things better for the common man (like others before them-but not all) but in opposition they declared that they should be whiter than white and better than ever and that they would represent the WHOLE country. To many of us who hoped for a brighter future (at least in part for our children)they have been a Bitter disappointment.I don't want the Tories back, but I believe they have shot themselves in the foot over this and now many are baying for their blood, especially the media who are now listing all the faults that have occurred since they took office. Cheers. Eric

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 02:44 PM

Please Eric lad, could you break up the text a bit? It makes my eyes water trying to read great lumps of print on the screen! (You probably know how already, but if you don't, you just put {P} at the end of every paragraph - except that instead of { and } you put < and > )

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 04:46 PM

And don't that as a criticism Eric, because it all seemed to make good sense to me.

But JamesJim's "80% tax on anything is absolutely ridiculous!!!! " doesn't. Not as a general proposition, because it's too easy to think of examples where that might be a perfectly reasonable level of tax.

For example, if I use something that causes a lot of pollution, why shouldn't I have to pay for the cost of cleaning it up, and making good the damage? That is part of the real cost of the stuff, and just because it costs less than that to make it is no reason for loadsinmg the cost on to other people.

What the right cost for petrol should be, and who should decide it, and how we can find ways to spread the cost of keeping this planet habitable, in a way that is fair, those are other questions, and I'd never say that the British Government or any other government have got it right, or even look like getting it right.

But the principle that all of us should be responsible for the cost of clearing up the mess we make - that seems pretty basic to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: JamesJim
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:40 PM

McGrath, lad, as far as I'm concerned, you could never think of enough good reasons to tax anything at 80% (at least for me). I would bet that you would be very lonely, if we were all in one big room and an announcer said, "all who believe that an 80% tax on anything is a good idea, please move to the left of the room - all who believe that such tax could never be justified, move to the right of the room. The building would tilt right and you'd end up on our side.

However, I indeed do believe in Government oversight, which through the making of law can actually impose a tax, but in a different, less objectional form. For example, our government (US) already oversees air purity, by requiring manufacturers of the automobile and other vehicles, to provide engines that reduce pollution. Most local States/Cities test vehicles once per year to see that they are complying. This is certainly a tax to which I do not object. The reason is simple. It places the product produced in the free market - a competitive environment. Government never invented anything, but it's for sure that if you have two or more manufacturers competing for consumer dollars, they'll find ways to deliver economically.

As to oil spills (as an example), government should force offenders to clean up spills, etc. It's difficult for the offender to pass such costs on, simply because of competition (this may not be a good choice as an example, because we are probably dealing with an ologopoly in the oil industry and not true competition).

My point is very simple. Don't let government take your money and promise you they will be efficient with it! Ain't gonna happen!!!!

Cheers to you my friend and fellow Mudcatter! These words are written in good humour and good cheer. We are all in this world together and I know we both want to make the best of it.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Fuel crisis
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM

Hi McGrarth-wondered how clever people did that is this working

This should work if I read what you say right. Cheers. Eric