BS: Food, Farmers, making a living

Subject: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 04:52 AM

Can anyone explain the farming crisis to me?
We all need Food, yet farmers & fishermen seem to be treated with disdain even though they supply this vital resource
Why for example are the prices paid to farmers for their produce so low?
If it is over capacity in food production then why are we pushing new technologies like GM crops
Looks like we need to value these people more, pay them more and respect them more
At the same time I would like our food producers to have high standards, the idea of herbivores being given feed containing bits of ground up other animals is repugnant
Perhaps more money spent on researching BSE rather than GM would be valuable?
Please feel free to educate me on Global economy, market forces,etc.
I will be off down the pub then. The Harlequin is having a 'Harvest Festival' today; bring cans, cereals, good cheer to contribute to a collection of food for the homeless. Hope there is some Public Transport!
Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 04:57 AM

I don't claim to understand it but I suspect that the real problem lies with the powerful supermarket chains.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 05:47 AM

I don't know whether or not this is possible in the U.K. Here in the U.S., I try to support the small, family farmers as opposed to big agribuisiness by buying organic products whenever possible. This costs more, but I am healthier for it, and at the same time, I'm supporting small farmers who grow organic.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:07 AM

I find it hard to buy Organic produce here Carol. Our supermarkets say the are interested yet the Organic ranges of fruit and veg are often not only more expensive but are of lower quality for no understandable reason. So most of the population is faced with cheap fresh looking produce or expensive organic produce that for the most part is one day way from being mouldy. I don't think this difference is just caused by the use of preservative chemicals. There does not seem to be any real will in this country to get the supply of fresh organic produce into shops and encourage farmers to produce more locally. Recently I had a delivery of organic food and the cabbage was already very limp like it had been cut for over a week and had cabbage white butterfly caterpillars all over it. I think what I am saying is that Organic producers cannot be lazy either, just producing a 'chemical free' product is not good enough, it has to have a decent level of quality too.
Where my friend lives they have farmers markets where the producers cut out the supermarket and sell direct, this looks like a good idea and I hope it takes off.
Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 07:17 AM

As a part-time farmer, I agree with the sentiments expressed here. I saw a bumper sticker some years ago that read, "Don't criticize farmers with your mouth full."

I will never understand why people don't consider farmers as deserving of support. It's a hard, thankless, chancy job. Crime pays better. Since Adam and Eve got kicked out the the garden people have been trying to work out a way to make a decent living from farming, but not many have succeeded.

A full-time lawyer, I love my practice. But I must admit that civilization can exist and has existed for most of the world's history without lawyers. And without doctors, accountants, mechanics, policemen, and politicians. It cannot exist without farmers.

Bud

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:06 AM

It's a complicated problem. One reason farmers are paid poorly is simple economics- when food prices go up, people get really angry. If food prices are lower, the producers of the food are at the bottom of the pay chain, so to speak, so they get paid less. And yes, here in the USA the agribusiness giants can grow enormous quantities of produce and can have giant animal warehouses and therefore can keep their prices low. Meantime my friends who raise beef, chickens, and sheep have to buy their feed, pay their vet bills, and do most of it with little help from the gov't, so have to charge prices that make up for their costs. I also buy locally as much as I can, but come winter it's hard. And Roger, I have been wondering the same thing about grocery store organic produce- why is it so limp and unappealing? The local health food stores charge more but their products are much fresher.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 10:01 AM

Some of the organic produce in the supermarket is not very good, but I can buy a five pound bag of beautiful organic carrots at my local supermarket for not much more than non-organic.

But produce is not the only way people can support organic farmers. There's grains, soy products, milk, eggs, cheese, and many other food products that can be bought organic. I have found things like organic eggs and milk to be superior to non-organic in every way.

I'm lucky that my supermarket carries a lot of different organic products. I pay a little more for them, but I experience a real positive difference in my health as a result of using these products.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM

My local store of a giant chain has a small 'organic' section. The citrus fruit regularly ends up mouldy, sometimes within a week of their getting new produce.

If I can get there fast enough that they're still fresh, I just take them home and put them in the fridge. I've had oranges last for two months and still taste fantastic!
It's scary when there is so much chemical stuff on normal oranges that people don't realize these things are supposed to go 'off' quickly.

Proper refrigeration would increase the length of freshness, and lowering the price would encourage people who don't clearly understand the benefits to buy before the stuff goes 'off'.

Organic food tastes better, has more nutrients, and sustains the earth we live on. But only if people care for their produce properly!!!

Find out where your supplier is getting their stuff from, and talk to the source. Unfortunately, there are some people who are just trying to get more money out of others by selling organic.

Find a good supplier, or a local farm where the owners care about their produce.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Ely
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 03:57 PM

I go to college in a small town in Iowa where there is a farmer's market every Thursday--they sell everything from produce to baked goods to scandinavian straw Christmas ornaments. The supermarkets in town sell tons of herbs from a local organic herb farm, and all of the tofu used in the dining halls (there's a lot of it--it's one of those wacky Birkenstock-wearing schools) is made at a local plant from Iowa-grown organic soybeans. We're all very proud. Too bad I hate tofu.

I think the availability of organic food seems to be better here, where it can be grown in the vicinity, than at home in Houston where a)the climate is such that a lot of food staples don't grow, b)it's a monstrous metropolitan area, so everything has to be hauled long distances. I probably could get organic produce in Houston proper, but it would involve driving an hour or more through Hellish traffic and paying outrageous prices at the "boutique" grocery stores downtown. I wish it weren't so but I can't afford to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 05:52 PM

Roger farmers produce food they don't walk on water -no need to disrepect them, but surely we should offer equal respect to the miners who provide our energy, the steel workers doctors nurses, and the man who sweeps the streets. Farmers lost respect when BSE came to its head and I am not saying that was right or wrong but it will take a long time before they earn that respect back.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 09:13 PM

Ickle, farmers are necessary, unlike miners, steel workers, doctors, nurses, and street-sweepers, all of whom have been absent in msny societies. Everybody eats.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Sep 00 - 11:27 PM

Yeah, sometimes it seems that the more useless a profession is in the larger scheme of things, the more respect you get as a member of that profession.
Musicians used to be useful as more than entertainment - they kept remote places connected. Now, certain (not-so-smart) people think it's not "work".
I am constantly amazed at the disrespect that certain people have for certain jobs - to the extent that they don't want to do their work, cause it's a 'dirty' job. What's wrong with dirt?
The worst thing is when employers don't value the work, because it could easily end up reflecting badly on the company, such as when the washrooms are really sloppy.
That's important too!!!

Farmers are important because everyone needs to eat. They are also the primary caretakers of our home, the Earth.
That's a lot more important than doctors or computer techies, no matter how important those are to our 'civilization'.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Escamillo
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 12:02 AM

I got a specialization on software for the agricultural market, and I see the same process running in many areas of food production and commerce: concentration. Large corporations are taking over the places of former small producers and distributors. They don't think that farmers are needed for people to eat everyday. They see farmers as their next targets, then they apply all the economical pressures to drive them to bankruptcy, then take their lands for vile prices, and force them to be their employees or be condemned to marginality in big cities.

First was export operations, seed production (genetically modified), then grain receipt and conditioning, transportation, industrial processes and financial resources. They will not stop until all the lands are their property. Back to medieval times, with modern technology.

Small communities still grow their grain and cattle, and produce milk and eggs, but who cares ? Big business are in big cities.And I'm talking about Argentina, a country that was the traditional food producer called "the World's Barn". This is what capital concentration and globalization means for us, aside of the giant step we see in communications. Though, the governments who allow and backup this process have been elected by us. Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 17 Sep 00 - 04:19 AM

Ickle, I am in Sheffield Right!!
The Steel City has become a service City
McDonalds, Car Showrooms and a Shopping Centre have replaced the Steel Industry here. All of which are viewed globally as more important than Steel (or any other manufacturing) it seems
Hey what would we do if we couldn't drive to the Mall, shop, then eat wholesome nutricious Fast food after a busy day?
I seem to remember writing letters of protest to a certain Heseltine over Pit Closures as I am sure you did Ickle. And it is outrageous that miners have died from work related health problems while governments drag their feet over compensation - the longer it takes the less that are left alive = final payout far less
Who doesn't have respect for Doctors and Nurses? They are essential and are highly valued by everyone
Getting back to Farmers. Many Farmers are not in the Meat industry at all and so have no connection with BSE , Potato grower for example. Another thread deals with 'what do you do' and I suspect that Farmer would come near the bottom of the 'valuable' profession list way below QVC salesman

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 18 Sep 00 - 06:39 AM

I'm just posting to keep this thread alive another 24 hours, I find the topic a bit overwhelming and have nothing particularly cogent to add just at this moment.

I think the speed at which this topic descended the list here indicates the largest factor in the problem, people just don't know, and don't care, where their food comes from, or its true economic, social, and evironmental cost. Given factors like, for example, aquifer depletion and soil salinization in the San Joaquin valley, the sleeping American citizen may soon get a rude wake-up call. Should that happen, though, one is hard-pressed to imagine a rational response.

My thoughts are rather muddled right now, I've just read the "explaining the unexplained" topic and am a bit depressed at the hostility to rationality that goes disguised as "open-mindedness" -- in a culture where popular perception of science has been so degraded that, say, Monsanto represents "science", and Uri Geller "open-mindedness" -- well, it's hard to imagine such a culture coming to any good end.

Is this making sense, or a glimmer of sense, to anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Art Thieme
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 05:39 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: mousethief
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 05:49 PM

My wife and I try to buy from the local greengrocer types in their tents by the side of the road. It's almost all local (or at least in-state) produce, usually produced by small, family farmers. Some is organic, some is not.

I'm not sure if developing a hierarchy of respectability based upon occupation is necessary. It doesn't matter nearly as much what we could do without in a different society, because we don't live in a different society, we live in this one. In this society, if the power grid shut down over the winter (in cold areas) or the summer (in hot areas), many, many people (particularly the elderly) would die. Many thousands of homeless people *DO* die in (for example) Chicago every winter for lack of a warm place to sleep (this I know from when my ex (we were still married then) worked at a soup kitchen in Chicago).

Many different people contribute to our survival, or to the overall good of society (teachers?) and all are (IMHO) deserving of our respect and of a living wage/salary.

But what do I know?

cheeseless in Seattle,
Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 06:03 PM

Guest Luther,

I really can't tell you whether or not you are making a glimmer of sense. I can tell you, as a participant on the thread you mentioned, that both sides of the argument gave as good as they got.

I think some feelings were hurt. I know mine were, and I have felt the need to reassess my estimation of a fellow Mudcatter whom I previously had great respect for. Not because of his point of view, but because I expected more compassion from this person based on the sort of person I thought he was. There may be people on the other side of the discussion who feel the same way as I do. I suspect that there are.

Perhaps it would be better to leave the hurt of that thread on that thread.

Best wishes,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:44 PM

apologies, CarolC, I didn't intend to stir up any hurt feelings -- when I commented on thatthread in thisthread, I had a fever and and a throbbing headache (nasty cold, seems to be getting better) -- if I had thought for a second that my post here would upset you I would have phrased it more carefully -- sorry!

I do have a lot of thoughts on the topic in this thread, basically I just feel too lousy to articulate them right now -- to me, this is probably the single most important issue, it ties together the food we eat, the corporate model of agriculture, the relationship of US regulatory agencies to these corporations, US and international politics, the environment, foreign policy of the US government, etc etc.

hey, it's just the kind of thing that makes your head hurt, even when you're healthy -- hopefully I can post a few sensible thoughts later.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:19 PM

Thanks, Guest Luther. I really appreciate that.

I'm sorry you're not feeling well. I hope you feel better soon. I'm sure that when you do, you'll have some very interesting things to say on the subject of this thread.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: thosp
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:28 PM

"let them eat cake"

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: canoer
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:57 PM

Hi, my dad was a small dairy farmer in Wisc. Wiped out when the large interests got a law passed requiring stainless steel piping and holding systems for the milk. The cost was more than the farm was worth! Dad became a sheet metal man in town.

I think of all the posters, I agree most with Escamillo. I don't know anyone who disrespects the small family farmer. It's just that the super-large farming & food businesses, Iowa Beef e.g., are (1) much more efficient because of scale, therefore can profit on less price per gallon (bushel, cow) than the smaller less efficient operation. Also (2) as they have concentrated, they have become able to easily buy up whatever politicians they need to get whatever breaks, favors, etc. they want. This adds to the problem.

This is not a new process. What was the Dust Bowl but a big episode of the same? It's just the gigantic scale of it now. The abovementioned Iowa Beef Processors are reputed to control the supply of 80% of this nation's beef. Mad cow disease or not, genetic engineering or not, overuse of antibiotics and growth hormones or not, there is no way to affect that juggernaut by selective consumerism!

The supremely large producers have such a total lock on controlling our food supply, it will take notihng less than a revoluton to break that power down and democratize it. My 0.02 -- Canoer

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 11:22 PM

My thought process, right or wrong, is that if the small family farms would specialize in raising and growing organic products to supply the rapidly growing demand for such products, they would be able to compete with big agribusiness because A. they would be a smaller, more specialized niche, and B. they could charge higher prices, and the people in their target demographic would pay those higher prices.

In the economics of scale, this makes sense.

The small family farm will never be able to compete with large agribusiness in the areas in which these multi-national corporations operate. However, they can create a niche for themselves that is separate from that of the large agribusinesses if they choose to.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: hesperis
Date: 19 Sep 00 - 11:24 PM

Interesting points. I need to digest them all.

(That was not actually meant to be funny, it just came out that way...)

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: canoer
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 02:35 AM

Carol, of course many farmers are trying this. My brother works in SW Wis. and hires out parttime to many of them. They have not been slow to exploit the niche. But the niche is too small to support the hundreds who go broke EVERY WEEK from regular farming. Far, far too small.

And you can see from the many comments about the availability of high quality "organics" -- if they are or not, is another question -- that the marketers, upon whom the farmer depends, are not serious about expanding this niche, either.

Which in turn makes sense, because in the web of finance, the marketing groups are tied to the producing groups. Which have no interest in supporting competition. -- Canoer

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 02:54 AM

I don't know much about 'industrial farming', the huge agi-businesses that have spread over the USA. But I tend to agree with CarolC. In Oregon,where farms tend to be smaller, more and more of the commercial growers have turned to u-pick enterprises, which, while not getting every last bit of produce off the vine, so dramatically cut the expense of harvesting that they're making more money, not less. At the same time, the community benefits from fresher produce as vine-ripe as they could wish. And as part of the package, they have organizations like the 'Gleaners' that come in and clean up a field or patch while the owner gets a tax write-off.

,It seems to me that, with a little creativity, small(er) farms could fill a niche that the big bruisers could only dream of, whether as 'organic-farmed' produce or specialty items that are either too fragile for mass production and shipping or have too short a season to be profitable. Big agri-businesses have definite limitations. A multi-thousand-acre rancher once told me: "Oh, yes, we have several hundred-acre plots that are too small to mess with."

Adapt and modify or die. I do believe that we will learn how to survive, even thrive, as we go along. I hope I'm right...

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: canoer
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 07:40 AM

Dear Ebbie, what you see are the successes. The far more numerous failures -- not through their own fault, but because of the problems -- are not visible except in the statistics. And the statistics don't change. The small farmer, the small businessperson, the small musician (let's say), are themselves constantly shrinking niches. The organic farmer, the new breed of "entrepreneur," the small independent labels, which do survive, can be called the "delaying tactics" in a general rout of the small by the big. It is not reversible. This is capitalism. Them that get the capital, prosper, at the expense of the rest of us. -- Canoer

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 04:18 PM

An interesting article from a recent Smithsonian mag about niche farming:

clicky here

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: canoer
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 10:10 PM

Thanks Alex, nice (if way too short) article. -- the canoer.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 10:57 PM

Dear Luther,(and the rest of the gang) Yes farmers are important,way up there on the(pardon the pun)food chain,but let me let you in on a little secret, The farmers can grow all the food that the world needs, but if they have no way of getting the food to the masses (trucks) then it's gonna sit there and rot!This is the predicament that the dear old US is about to find itself in.I've been an owner/operator for 26 years and my family has been in Trucking ever since before trucks had engines (they had four legs),and Today I put my equipment up for sale.I probably won't get anywhere near what it's worth, simply because I'm not the only one selling their equipment, There is a hugh glut on the Used truck market, Everyone is going out of buisness,Some are simply sending the keys to the finance company and walking away,Others are just walking away. WE have been outting pressure on congress for a mandatory fuel surcharge (just to stay in buisness)It is expected to be unanimously approved by the full House,and then goes before the Senate,Before it is finally a LAW I'm afraid it's gonna be a classic example of too little, too late.There won't be enough trucks around for it to matter. And if you don't think that it will effect you,my friends you'd better think again.It is going to effect everyone.Trucks move the raw materials to the factories that make(for lack of a better word)stuff. They then move the (stuff) to distribution points,and then on to retailers,(stuff) being,food,clothing,soap,paint,cars,shoes,etc. add anything else that you can think of,it came on a truck.So before you turn off your computer tonight email your Represenative,Senator,Congressman,whoever,and remind them that this is an election year, and by Gawd they'd better do something fast before this problem that seems so far away,finds itself right where you live. Thank you for your patience fellow mudcatters and for allowing me to share with you, the worse day of my life!Peace-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Sep 00 - 11:48 PM

Biskit,

I'm sorry you're having such a tough time right now. I hope things get better for you. Would you mind explaining in a little bit more detail how the fuel surcharge thing works?

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Escamillo
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 02:43 AM

Sad news, Biskit. I too hope that things will go better as we all re-adapt to a whole new scheme of production in this globalized world. I think that the only thing we can do is to awake people's consciousness of these problems, otherwise the generation of our children will find even less opportunities in a world ruled by unscrupulous corporations who give us this marvelous communication tools, and take away our jobs.

Folk music in times of the Independence was about freedom and courage, in times of migration was about melancholy of home. Then in the 2000, folk music should remind us our dignity as workers ?

Un abrazo - Andrés

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Lena
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 07:59 AM

I grew up in (in an olive grove,as a matter of fact....)an area(Tuscany) where land costs around $500 a square meter at least.You can spend your day with your back bent working the soil,but if you have a bit of land you're very,very rich.There,there is no crisis.Good organic food is considered the best luxury in life(that's why chemical shit never had much success down there.It soen't make sense to those folks to buy beautiful looking but tasteless food)and now that good oil and good wine are fashonable again I wouldn't claim a crisis.Also,when the cow thing happened we didn't have much of a worry because usually when you buy meat you know the farm or the producer it comes from.And supermarket chains are usually prvided food from local producers ,which keeps the market healthy and safe for both parts.What caused big problems there was the Europeazation(I'm sure it's a mispelled word...)of the market.It was famous when Farmers had all suddenly to balance their milk production to that one of near Germany.Basically,they were fined for their excess milk and ordered to get rid of it.Farmers went down to barricate highways and it all went on for a while.This is updated to Italy when I left it, nearly one year ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Grab
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:49 AM

It's just another industry, Roger. You don't believe that other industries are essential? well a lot of ppl would have got very hungry if the fuel protests have carried on, since food distribution is just as essential as food production in our current society - the corn-field, the mill and the baker are no longer next door to each other.

The trouble is that we also want farmers and fishermen to look after the environment. This isn't necessarily viable in the short term - woods don't generate income like corn does, so the woods get chopped down and ploughed over, and the whole lot gets used for intensive farming. After a while, the topsoil gets thin and blows away without any tree roots to hold it down or woods to act as wind breaks, but that's all in the future...

Fisherman I absolutely have no respect for - I believe that all fishing in European waters should stop now, and if the fishermen had any self-respect they'd be the first ppl to acknowledge it. The fish stocks in the seas around Europe are now so depleted they may never recover, but the fishermen are still going. To be fair, Britain has cut back on its fishing, but Spanish fishermen amongst others are continuing their overfishing. They've now started deep-water fishing, and these species reproduce much slower than shallow-water fish such as cod, so they're even less likely to recover from intensive fishing.

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Biskit
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 10:53 AM

Dear Carol C, This is the first thing in the morning....but I'll try to answer your question as best as I can.The fuel surcharge will be implemented against shippers to offset the rapid change in the price of fuel.This "extra"money will be passed on directly to the owners of the trucks. Not,as is usually the case,to brokers and other lower life forms that leech off of this industry(every since de-regulation) of course the shippers will raise the price to the recievers,recievers will in turn raise their price, and so on and so on...To put this in the most simple terms,(dollars¢s),Last year the average price of Diesel fuel was $1.12 now the average price is $1.78, quite a mark up in a years time.While the price of fuel has gone up,the freight rates have gone down.I could try to explain this, but short of government conspiacies I don't really have an answer. But it has been going on for a while now, and it all started when Jack Kennedy thought deregulation was a great idea.Oh Gawd I'm starting to sound like one of those politifanatics that I shake my head in wonder at. If there is anything else you would like to know,let me know and I will try to answer your question as best as I can (hopefully without the political rhetoric)Peace,-Biskit-(who's going to look for a town job now)

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Biskit
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 08:28 PM

"REFESH"

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: canoer
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 10:02 PM

Jeez, Biskit, your story breaks my heart all over again. Such a long family tradition! Your rig up for sale is like the family farm up for auction. Wishing you all the best, guy. --- Farm boy working on Chrysler's line.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 10:30 PM

Thanks, Biskit. Good luck with your job hunt.

I do have one question. The shippers that you said the fuel surcharge will be implemented against. Are these people "middle men"? I guess what I'm asking is whether or not this surcharge will hurt the farmers. I'm guessing that it won't, and that the people who ship are independent of the farmers. Am I correct in thinking this?

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 21 Sep 00 - 10:44 PM

This is how it was explained to me...

Once,there were many small operators raising cattle. These farmers would take their cattle to feed lots,where the meat processors would bid on them. You sold your cattle to the highest bidder. If you had good quality beef and plenty of it,you could realize a substantial profit for that year.If you suffered reversals (drought,illness,etc), you lost money,but the local bank was happy to extend you credit to cover you until next year,and this credit was based on holding your land (your major asset) as collateral. This model was based on competition,and farmers did well.

Things changed.Gradually,the feedlots passed into the hands of a single operator (agri-business,like Iowa Beef). Now farmers found that their beef brought a flat rate...take it or leave it. With no competition for buyers, the farmer had little choice.In good years he realized a slim profit.In bad years,he found himself slipping farther and farther into debt. The banks began to see family farms as bad debtors,and began to call the loans in. Some farmers lost their farms,and agribusiness bought these farms. The remaining farmers now competed to sell their cattle to Iowa Beef,in competition with Iowa Beef's own cattle. Profits dropped even lower,the debt cycle becoming more severe,more family farmers were evicted,or just quit.

The problem is not capitalism. The problem is monopolies allowed to proliferate. Eventually,the farms,the feed lots,the slaughter houses,and the supermarkets may all belong to the same agribusiness. What then will happen to prices and quality for the consumer? And what will happen to the farmer,the ideal of individuality and self-sufficiency? He'll be forced to leave his own land,or become a share-cropper on it.

I've used beef farmers as an example,but the model applies to those who raise corn,milk,citrus fruit or chickens. If the growers themselves could unite,taking control of the distribution process,the trend could be reversed. But for now,the future of the family farm seems to be in dire straits.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:23 AM

Dear Carol C, No the middle men are the Brokers(the bloodsuckers the govt. let loose when they implemented deregulation),who demand a slice of everyones pie,for doing nothing but answering the phone.So I guess the answer to your question would be no,the farmers would've already taken their screwin' by then. excuse my language dear lady,I just don't know a gentle way of putting that. Peace-Biskit-

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:03 PM

I just reread last nights post.If I look at that "third person",I would say i'm mad as hell!

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:53 PM

Biskit, that's awful, don't know what to say other than best wishes -- didn't know much about this, except of course the bit about fuel prices. I remember wondering last fall about a news story predicting heating oil shortages because refiners were at capacity on diesel production, it sounded a bit fishy (if I recall, diesel and heating oil are basically the same thing except for the tax rates, heating oil is dyed so truckers can't buy it at the lower tax rate -- somebody correct me if that's wrong). And now this year diesel prices skyrocket.

Writing your politicians and the regulatory agencies can help, if there's a huge, organized protest, but it is slow. The organic food standard is one example -- in '97 the USDA got about 275,000 letters protesting the idiotic proposed organic certification rules. That did have an effect, but it took until March of this year to get the revised rules. Things are getting better, the original USDA rules allowed irradiated GM produce grown with sewage sludge to be labeled "organic" (guess whose idea that was), and that part seems to be off the table for now. Still being worked out is whether organic farmers will finally be eligible for federal crop insurance, etc. -- it's an ongoing process, you can bet the agribusiness lobbyists are working their butts off right now to undermine any progress we make, it's never really over.

Biskit, I know writing letters and waiting don't do much for you right now -- hope things work out for you, wish you the best.

lot of good points here, gotta take a break here and sort them out...

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Biskit
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 03:10 PM

Heating oil is Kerosene,(more refined but same deal) red fuel(red dye) is farm diesel, usually 20 to 30 cents cheaper, still #2 diesel but They put the dye in so trucks can't use it(red dye=no taxes paid),if ya get caught with even a trace of red dye in your tanks Whoa Baby!27 8x10 color glossy photos,with circles an' arrows, and a paragraph on the back of each one explainin' what each one was.(thank you Arlo) you get the point though,.. eh? peace-Biskit-9who's still lookin' fer a town job)

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 03:36 PM

Grab, you acknowledge a very important point. We do expect fishermen and farmers to be guardians of the enviroment, but its funny how we don't expect carworkers to limit the number of cars or for miners /oil workers to reduce output of fossil fuels to save the enviroment. I live in Hull and have great respect fo anyone who risked their lives for fishing. I also think though that it is important to acknowledge the failure of goverments in Europe and worldwide to police the industry fairly and impartially.

Subject: RE: BS: Food, Farmers, making a living
From: Gypsy
Date: 22 Sep 00 - 08:50 PM

Hallelujah, and please shop at our local farmers market. We have 8 in the county, offering the case of the week delivery, etc. There are a tremendous amount of small farmers here. I would love to have a few less customers that say, "You think pretty highly of your produce at those prices!" The better half and I work hard, and cull heavily to provide clean, poison free fruit for our people. It is not easy to be in the agribusiness, but man, it's even more work doin' the mom and pop bit. (Gypsy who loves her work, but would like more time for her hammer dulcimer....)