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BS: Political Correctness
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Subject: Political Correctness From: Dave the Gnome Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:57 AM Good few interesting threads recently - Gypsy and Nigger (or Wop, Spick, Spade, Dago, Polack, Mick - choose your own ethnic insult) are non PC at the moment. When, however, will the terms traveller and black become so? While I heartily agree that no-one has the right to subject anyone to terms which cause both offence and upset, who is it who writes the rules? We seem to have gone through our worst excesses of militant PC-ism(banning Enid Blyton books was one of the worse I came across!) but it still lurks there. I have recently seen a local council trying to ban the terms BC and AD as they are offensive to non-christians. A blackboard must still be refered to as a chalkboard in some areas and heaven help anyone talking about a chairman - even if the person in the chair IS male! Being too PC can have a very negative effect and end up becoming self-defeating. As our english teacher used to say - discuss.... Dave (English/Welsh/Polish/Russian with a hint of Irish) the Gnome BTW - there are only 2 things I hate. Racial predjudice and the French;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Gern Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:14 PM Good topic for discussion! I, for one, may be among the last to defend what is disparaged as PC. It seems to me that this term is most often foisted by those who are too absorbed in their own opinions and outlooks to consider the feelings of others. How foolish they make us look when we try to show some sensitivity. They exaggerate stories about PC excesses (I do NOT believe that blackboard story cited above, for example) and voice their hysteria over supposed conspiracies wishing to censor our society into some semblance of common courtesy. "Who writes the rules?" The "rules" of tolerance and consideration have already been etched upon your stony hearts! Despite the Limbaugh/Buchanan backlash against diversity and common courtesy, I intend to do my best to be considerate of the feelings of others, and hope to receive similar treatment. No "Liberal" conspiracy compels me toward this attitude; and no conservative's smug defense of intolerance will make me change. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: hesperis Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:31 PM Personally, I don't find BC and AD offensive. I do find it strange how Christians who don't know what it means, assume that BCE and CE still mean something Christian. But Christ had a lot of impact. I think it's silly to pretend that impact never happened in order to not offend someone. I don't mind it when guys open doors for me, either. If I get to the door first, I'll usually hold it, if I can. (Some doors are too heavy for me.) If I were a 300-pound 'rabid feminist' back in the days when we first started fighting for common recognition of our rights as human beings, I would have minded - strenuously! The thing that concerns me about equality is that, in fighting for our rights, we seem to have lost sight of the strengths we used to have. Diversity, kindness, time. We need a recognition that 'equal' doesn't have to mean 'exactly alike'. I think that now, there is a lot more respect for women in certain circles. And I think that we need to take a hard look at where we as a society are going. Yeah, there's a lot more work that needs to be done to get more women and minorities into economically healthy positions in society. But I also think that the way this society is set up is dehumanizing to people, and I don't want to support that. I find consumerism to be the greatest threat to my peace of mind. But I live in Canada, and it's not generally a place where being of the wrong religion or gender will get you killed. Even just being able to get a computer and be here on Mudcat means I'm living in a somewhat tolerant society. What happened to the life you could carve out with your own hands, according to your own principles? Did we ever have that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bert Date: 18 Sep 00 - 12:34 PM What has '300-pound' got to do with your argument? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: katlaughing Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:30 PM There was some excellent discussion in THIS THREAD, from last year. Thanks to Rick Fielding' suggestion, some of us decided to start using the term "ethically conscious" which makes more sense and hasn't been co-opted by the far right. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: MMario Date: 18 Sep 00 - 01:33 PM regarding the blackboard story - there ARE schools in which teachers are requested to refer to them as "chalkboards" rather then "blackboards" - and I know of at least one district that replaced all their old slate chalkboards with "greenboards" specifically to avoid the issue. it was a hotly contested debate in the school comittee as it was a very expensive item and done ONLY for PC.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Mrrzy Date: 18 Sep 00 - 02:08 PM And what IS a traveller, in the PC sense used in the opening post? Black I believe is only npon-PC for Americans of partially African descent, but I don't think it's PI for black people outside of the US... Am I wrong? -Mrr, who loves the French |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 00 - 02:16 PM I was once shafted badly by a 300 pound Antactic Hat Blocker with a nasty proclivity for shoe polish and yet I try to commune with the spirits of penguins. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bert Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:00 PM Well I not surprised you got shafted! You were paying too much attention to the ant's "act". Next time, dilute the shoe polish with the 'spirit of penguins' and pay less attention to the 'ant acts'. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Kim C Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM I think too many people have confused PC with good old-fashioned tact and manners. I asked my old roommate, who happened to be black, which she preferred - African-American or Black. She said, Honey, I'm Black. African-American's too long! It used to be that people could say what was on their minds without reproach (or litigation). Now we try to water things down, and change the names of things, but a rose by any other name... People who insist on speaking their minds are now often branded as evil, intolerant, etc. And granted, sometimes they are. And sometimes they are just people who don't know when to shut up. I think if people just remembered how to exercise good manners, and behaved politely to one another, this PC stuff might go away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Wincing Devil Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:15 PM Heaven Help us, we must't offend anyone! The precepts in the Declaration of Independence were patently offensive to George III. If you want an omlette, ya gotta break a few eggs! In some circles, the term PC in nonPC, it's MCS "MultiCulturally Sensitive". Just remember Aesop's Fable of the Man, His sone and the Old Donkey "When you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one".
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 00 - 03:25 PM Well I'm pleased to say you got a real ugly cat there WD. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:08 PM The basic rule always should be that you don't say things to hurt other people. There are some names which do hurt and insult other people, or that encourage bad attitudes towards them. Anyone half-way decent will try to avoid using names like that any time they can.
The trouble about making hard rules about this kind - what has been lumbered with the term PC is that it's too mechanical. It's like painting by numbers. If the attitudes behind the words stay the same, changing the words doesn't solve things. At best it can be a tool for trying to change some of those attitudes, but a pretty blunt tool.
That doesn't mean its not a good thing to get rid of words that have become insults. But words change and people change, and what's harmless today will be offensive tomorrow, and vice-versa. So long as there are people who want to insult other people, or see them as less than human, they are going to take whatever words there are, and use them in a way that conveys that. What happens is that the "new" words, the words that today would be called PC, become insults, because that is how they are used by people whose attitudes haven't changed.
And what also happens is that people who wish to promote division and hatred make up phony PC stories, or hunt out occasional absurdities, and spread them like urban legends.
And what also happens is that ambitious little tykes in positions of small authority have at times fed into that. They have seen PC as a toll they can use for office or academic politics and so forth, and these are the people who tend to lie behind the "occasional absurdities".
And sometimes they do it intentionally, because they want to promote division and hatred themselves. And I strongly suspect it was people like that who invented the absurd term PC in the first place. Hell, what is so "political" about being courteous to people who have been insulted every day of their lives?.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Tinker Date: 18 Sep 00 - 05:42 PM Perhaps as we continually raise the expectations bar, so that the things in the" would be nice" catagory continually cross into the "gotta have it catagory" we work harder and longer with less and less "Sabboth Time" And time to feed the soul. If you haven't fed yourself it can be hard to feed others the courtesy and care they need as well.Some folks feel you can subsitute rules for manners,but its the spirit that matters most. As a white woman with a handsome tall dark husband I can say the most cutting statements are usually made without words. Keep your hearts right and sing your song, intention does show through. I'm pretty protective of my kids, why else would we live in the world's most PC town. But I don't protect them from history, and song is one of the best tools I've found. We can use song to discuss words and attitudes they've been luck enough not to experience first hand. This summer my 9 year old came home from camp wanting to know why they had to stop singing Black Socks because someone decided it was racist. Honest. But if you look at White Wings and the fact its talking about boat sails and then look in the camp laundry bag.... Well some songs are just songs. He figured it out by himself. Okay I'm off my soap box... Thanks for the Vent Tinker |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Greg F. Date: 18 Sep 00 - 06:49 PM This is a tough 'un. Good friend several years ago was suspended from his New York State job- and almost lost it entirely- for relating the story of "Black Peter"- Sinter Klaas' sidekick- in talking about the Dutch Christmas tradition. This is not a joke. And he's still [blank]Peter to this day, as far as the facility is concerned.Don't know if they were also required to speak of [blank]smiths, [blank]-water fever, shoe [blank]ing, the crime of [blank]mail, etc.
PC- like so much else today- started off as an excellent idea to try to restore some civility to daily life and has gone tragically- and in some instances idiotically- awry.
Common sense in the application of the 'PC Code' would resolve the situation for the better- but common sence is seemingly also a product in short supply of late.:-) Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:01 PM Aw geez Greg....Have you no shame? I'm as common as they get. Dead common. And now you say my supply is short! How do you know anything about my supply? Have you been peeking in the bathroom window at my house? If you have, I know this is simple jealously as my supply is a real beauty! I expect an immediate apology. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Seamus Kennedy Date: 18 Sep 00 - 07:13 PM Sometimes you can't tell if something's offensive or insulting to a group unless you first make an (innocently) offensive statement. Then after the storm of protest has died down, and you've taken your lumps, you can decide whether or not to continue using said statement. If you continue using it, knowing that it's offensive, then it's no longer said in innocent ignorance, and you deserve to have the verbal shit slapped out of you. Seamus |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Greg F. Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:15 PM Actually, Spaw, I only had it second-hand from someone who peeked in your medicine cabinet--- :-) Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Sep 00 - 08:21 PM I'd be highly suspicious of the people involved in the type of case Greg mentioned, coming down viciuously on his friend inappropriately - they're either playing academic office politics, or trying to make PC a dirty word, or both. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Lonesome EJ Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:10 PM American Sports Teams. Pressure has been put on several teams to change their names because of implied ethnic slurs,mainly against Native Americans.Among these sports franchises are the Atlanta Braves,the Washington Redskins,the Kansas City Chiefs,and the Cleveland Indians.College teams like the Florida State Seminoles and the University of Utah Utes have also been criticized.Now,to me this exemplifies both extremes of the "politically correct" argument.Most people are aware that "redskin" is a derisive term roughly equivalent to "nigger".How the Washington team has held on to this name is beyond me- I believe it should be changed.The Cleveland Indians use a logo that features a stereotyped grinning "injun" that I believe Native Americans rightly find offensive.But what the heck is the problem with "Braves","Chiefs","Seminoles",and "Utes"? The first two have positive connotations,seeming to link the strength,nobility and courage of the Native American to that of their respective teams.And surely using the names of tribes like the Seminoles and Utes pays homage to these native inhabitants of Florida and Utah?Again,those who reasonably object to inappropriate terms take too broad a view,thus throwing their entire motives into doubt. And again,the Irish stereotype seems immune to the objection of Irish-Americans.Both the Boston Celtics and the Notre Dame Fighting Irish feature fierce little cartoon Irishmen with shamrocks in their hats,buckles on their shoes,and fists exiended pugnaciously. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: catspaw49 Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:44 PM Once again, I'm with you Leej. I don't get it at all. Let me give you a different take yet. This year, the National Hockey League welcomes a new franchise from here in Columbus, the Blue Jackets. There was a naming contest and several names were beaten out that made sense and were fine for a hockey team. The powers that be went with "Blue Jackets." Now if you just think about it, it sounds like a yellow jacket somewhat chilled from the ice and turning blue. Well, that ain't it. Does anybody know who Blue Jacket was? Sadly, most don't, including people here in Ohio where this Native American chief holds an important place in Ohio history. Now considering the situation with the teams like the Indians, I didn't see this as a great idea, but at least we might honor a great man as the team owners said. What any of this had to do with Hockey, I have no idea. Still I thought, what the hell.....folks will see a logo and ask about him. I must be really stupid to have even thought this. The logo is of a deranged looking wasp/yellow jacket looking "thing" with huge bright red eyeballs and a blue jacket on the body.......its completely bizarre! Were I a Native American, I'd be really pissed. Just being a resident of this weird place, I'm pretty incensed myself!!! If they had just called them the "Blue Jackets" and cranked out the bizarro bee, it would just have been Buckeye stupid. Since they promoted the history/honor angle instead.............personally, I think somebody ought to be shot for this one. I'm sure ol' Blue Jacket is turning in his grave after being so "honored." Actually I was hoping for "Puckeyes." At least it would show we have a sense of humor. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: MarkS Date: 18 Sep 00 - 10:59 PM So what is wrong with "Black?" That is the descriptive term of choice demanded by Stokley Carmichael, Jessie Jackson, et al, back in the 60s as replacement for Negro, if I remember correctly. Would a history of the Black Panthers now be non PC because it uses the groups own name? Dave the Gnome is right about PC being self defeating. He may also be right about the French! MarkS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Harold W Date: 18 Sep 00 - 11:08 PM Should "Hucleberry Finn" be re written because of its reference to Nigger Jim? I think NOT! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: katlaughing Date: 19 Sep 00 - 12:09 AM Should any of our Mudcatters who live in France and may be French come in here and read these remarks, humourously meant or not; or those of us who are related to people who are French? Lay off it will you? What if a new person came to the site, who was French and read these kinds of remarks? Would they want to come back? LeeJ, I don't know. I think an argument could be made against Braves. Wasn't that sort of akin to the "noble redman/savage" tag...another one of the whitehides takes on it? Spaw, totally agree about the Blue Jackets. That sounds asinine! kat-ethicallyconscious |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: John Hindsill Date: 19 Sep 00 - 12:48 AM Hesperis---I subscribe to Biblical Archaeolgy Review. There was a great uproar a few years ago when they began to use the abbrs. BCE (Before the Common Era) for BC, and CE (Common Era) for AD. Some folks threatened to cancel their subscriptions because of these blasphemies. Of course, some intransigents can substitute Christian for Common; then everybody can be unhappy.
MMario---I suspect you are being had by that (apocryphal) story about the greenboard. Fifty [yes 50] years ago, long before ethnic awareness and PC, our elementary school installed green boards (interchagably called the greenboard or chalk board) and yellow chalk. It was felt, at that time, that that combination was easier on the students' eyes. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Hotspur Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:07 AM It seems to me that people who are worried about being PC are worried because they don't actually KNOW or talk to the people they don't want to offend. In many cases it's a form of discrimination in itself, because they spend time thinking up "non-offensive" terms rather than admitting it's impossible to lump a group of people together and have one set of criteria fit all of them. One of my high school teachers vehemently forbade her students from referring to her as African-American. she said she had no more connection to Africa than any other American whose family had been in this country for more than a hundred years. She wanted to be referred to as an American Negro. And my best friend hates to be called called Hispanic. It's Latina or nothing, baby! I personally, like many Americans, am a mutt, but mostly Scotch-Irish...does that make me a Celtic-American? *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Lepus Rex Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:08 AM What I find funny is how many people use the term 'Native American' here. I don't know about where you all live, but here in Minnesota, it's usually 'Indian' or 'American Indian,' or, preferably, the name of the person's tribe. 'Native American' is really sort of a silly term. I mean, my ancestors have been here in North America for generations, which makes me, my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. 'Native Americans,' even though I'm no Indian. Just wanted to make that point:) Spaw, thanks for the info on the 'Blue Jackets.' I'd been wondering what the name meant. It's too bad they wimped out with the logo... ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: Ethnic Humor From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Sep 00 - 01:17 AM Hey, I'm very proud of my French ancestry. But I know you hate me for what I am, and not my ancestry, so it's OK. Related to this topic of "Political Correctness" is the question of ethnic humor, and I guess I would include religious humor on a par with ethnic humor. I would hate to see ethnic humor done away with, but it is a very ticklish subject. In the 300,000 thread somebody told a joke about a dying Jewish man eating chocolate chip cookies his wife meant to serve at the funeral. I heard Garrison Keillor tell the same joke as an "Oly and Lena" Norwegian joke. I thought it was a pretty good joke, no matter what the ethnic group. I went to high school and college in Milwaukee, which has a huge Polish population, so I heard lots of "Polack" jokes - those were often quite nasty. Then there was the "blonde joke" fad, which tened to have a sexually demeaning tone - but some of them were light and funny. I'm Catholic and work in the church and attended a Catholic seminary for 8 years. I guess I've heard every priest/minister/rabbi joke ever thought of. Can't say I've minded most to them, but they do get tedious. Most of the time, I have been amused or no more than just mildly annoyed by anti-Catholic jokes, but I do have a few hot buttons. Jokes that depict priests as sexual predators are probably the worst - yes, there is a problem, but it is a very small minority of priests who are the cause of the problem and it horrible to defame all priests because of a few. Another is sexually degrading jokes about nuns - those are usually a double attack on both their gender and religion. I would bet that sexually degrading jokes about any ethnic group or religion could be a sensitive area, so maybe it's best to stay away from that. I'm sure every group has its "hot buttons" - areas that are particularly offensive. I think we should be careful to avoid those areas in our humor, but I don't think we need to completely purge our language and culture of all ethnic humor. There are certain things that various groups hold sacred, and those are sure "hot buttons." Joking about the Western Wall, Calvary, or Mecca can offend Jews, Christians, and Muslims quite easily, I believe. I don't think jokes about the dietary rules of the various groups are quite so sensitive. At least, I never have minded "mackerel snapper" jokes. Much ethnic humor springs from the ethnic groups themselves, and that sort of humor can often be rich and interesting (but can also be demeaning if it falls into the hands of the wrong people). Just because a Jew tells a Jewish joke, doesn't mean that a Gentile can get away with telling the same joke. It's an area to be careful in, but it's also an area where the objects of the humor need to try not to be overly sensitive. Much ethnic humor may come off as offensive, but very often it is not intended to offend. Very few of us tell jokes very well, so our attempts at humor often flop. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Terry K Date: 19 Sep 00 - 03:26 AM Thanks for the insight, Joe - you've given us all a very good guide as to how we should all censor our humour (SG -that's "sardonic grin") Cheers, Terry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Dave the Gnome Date: 19 Sep 00 - 04:36 AM Hey Kat - How can an Englishman like me (See first message in thread!) stop fighting the French??? Out of the last 500 years we have been at war with them for 400! The politcal correctness thing is still an issue - only a few weeks ago Carlise (north of England that is) council banned the local morris team from dancing in its council owned public places. Why - because they 'black up' their faces as part of the ritual. Never mind that was done traditionaly to preserve anonimity. The council decided it was offensive so therefore it must be! The worse thing is that the real racists out there use this as an excuse to say that black or any other ethnic minority are ruining traditional british culture. I must point out it is not the ethnic groups themselves who make these rules but often misguided and overly sensitive officials. Getting back to a folk music basis I have encountered a club which does not allow hunting songs. Much as I disaprove of hunting how can banning songs about it be justified? Do we also ban the shanties which stem from negro/slave work songs? Cock fighting songs? Songs about poverty and famine? Is this another manifestation of PC gone mad? I don't know the answers - perhaps someone can enlighten me! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: GUEST,Greg F.(not @ home) Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:02 AM Harold W.-
Didn't know if you were aware that Huckleberry Finn HAS been re-edited to remove the "N-Word" and with other subtle & not-so-subtle PC changes re-issued, and this new edition is the only one found in certain U.S. libraries. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Penny S. Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:08 AM Dave the gnome - surely in the interests of continuing the tradition, which is already about cocking a snook at authority, or why hide the faces, a period of using another colour would be appropriate. What party runs the council? Clown whiteface? Yellow, with Chicken Run mouths? And find private forecourts or somewhere. Make them look silly! Do you have a fool - mask him as the Council chair! Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: A Wandering Minstrel Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:25 AM Dave, There are clubs that don't like Hunting songs, clubs that dont like Whaling songs, even club organisers who dress you down for singing parodies! Our good old British middle-class folkie is only a microcosm of a society that is like blackpool rock, Break it anywhere and you'll find the words "bigotry" and "chauvinism" run right through. I'll forgive the French as long as that big supermarket in Boulogne is open! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Jeri Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:34 AM When it comes down to it, the people who are doing the hearing determine what is acceptible and what isn't. You can cry "but there's nothing wrong with what I said/sang." Fine, if there isn't anyone besides you involved in the communication process. (Are you singing in the shower? If not, you're going to hear about it.) It may be self-censorship, but it's more like putting a filter between your brain and mouth. Listeners need a filter between their ears and brain. It helps if both sides can try to understand the other. At one extreme, you wouldn't tell jokes about someone dying to a person who has just lost a loved one. It would be worse than insensitive, it would be cruel, because you'd probably know before you decided to tell the joke that it would hurt the person hearing it. I can believe there are people so dense that they don't even think about it. ("Who cares what he thinks, I think it's a hoot.") At the other extreme, there are people who seem to get a thrill out of being offended, and look for opportunities. I've met a few. One was offended that "black" was used to describe bad things. (As in "My, you're in a black mood today.") He just didn't believe that the term "black" could be used without implying race. Of course, he also told me that the Smurfs were Satanists. There are messages/songs/jokes that can hurt people, and it's common human decency to avoid that. You'll have absolutely no success telling people they don't have a right to feel hurt, and people will strongly resent it. There are messages/songs/jokes that offend people sensibilities, and while it's a good idea to try to forsee that, it may just be that the offended party's sensibilities are simply set to level 10 on the old "offence detector." In any case, it's not only the speaker's responsibility to try to be understandable (avoid misinterpretations), it's the hearer's responsibility to try to understand. Unfortunately, both sides often seem to think all of the responsiblity is on the other side. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: bob schwarer Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:03 AM And there are those who have found a career in being offended. Bob S. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bagpuss Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:19 AM According to Sid Kipper, there is a group in Norfolk called BAT - Bigots Against Tolerance. ;-) Bagpuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Carlin Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:24 AM I was going to stay out of this, but I can't stand it....... There is a difference between PC and common courtesy. If I decide (or recognize) that a particular statement or word would be offensive to an audience, and I refrain from using it, that is courtesy. PC on the other hand are speech codes imposed on the populace from above and enforced by institutional means. If it is the government that is the institution in question then it is undeniably censorship and patently unconstitutional....not to mention utterly inimical to the concept of a free society. Individuals are free to be offended by anything anyone else says. They are free to take steps to express their displeasure. But the thing about freedom is that everyone has some. This means that people are free to be offensive and use impolite language and, God help us, even racial and ethnic slurs. It is not the government's place to enforce the rules of politeness or good manners. It is a task for the populace at large. If a message is so outrageous that a societal consensus exists that it is unacceptable the meesenger will be punished. People won't buy his books/cds/, won't vote for him, or won't do business in his establishment. But if a person with a message than many find offensive can still obtain an audience that will support him, then obviously no consensus of opinion exists. Eventually statements and ideas must stand or fall on their own merit, not a government fiat. Personally, I follow the 'sticks and stones' theory. The world is a cold hard terrible place. People do horrible unspeakable things to each other everywhere, every day. If the worst thing that ever happens to you is offensive language.....the Gods have smiled upon you and you should count yourself fortunate.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Kim C Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:39 AM Several years back Mister and I went to Cherokee, North Carolina for a mini-vacation. Right smack on the reservation sat the Redskin Motel, big as life. I took a picture of it. A few weeks ago I had the great pleasure of meeting Chief Jim Billie, head of the Florida Seminoles. He has recorded a couple of CDs with Seminole legends and original songs, to try to make the old stories appealing to the young people. Anyway, he said, there are a lot of groups today complaining about people using their name to sell products or sports teams or whatever. We don't care. We're proud to be Seminoles. It's all right with us if you use our name - just win, okay? (He was quite a delightful man.) Someone later told me, and I don't know if it's true, that Florida State has some kind of contract or express permission to use the Seminole name. For the record, Mister and I own two Jeep Cherokees. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Sep 00 - 03:19 PM "Never speak of rope in the house of a man that's been hanged." Dave the Gnome, I'm still waiting to be enlightened on what might be considered wrong with the word "travellers". I've never heard it in a sense that could REMOTELY be considered derogatory to ANYONE, and can't imagine what such a usage could be. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Jeri Date: 19 Sep 00 - 04:01 PM Dave O, I just re-read Dave the Gnome's message, and what he alluded to was the fact that "traveler" (bet you a beer it only has one "L") might become un-PC in the future. Glad I re-read it - I used "Gypsy" in some messages in other threads without realizing it was considered a slur. Sorry - I sure didn't mean it that way... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Sep 00 - 04:19 PM PC is really organized (and intended compulsory) euphemism. The trouble with any euphemism is that the new "neutral" expression is still connected with the underlying referent, and will be used by people who used the old term. Those with a negative attitude to the referent will have a negative attitude even if obediently using the new term. On the other side of the coin, those who suspect negative attitudes are held will hear and see negative attitudes in and around the new term. In time the new term is poisoned (as "colored" was, and as "black" has been, both of which were put forward as "more kindly" substitutes for expressions seen as "loaded") and a new euphemism is needed to replace the old one, and equally uselessly. The whole thing becomes an exercise in futility. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Sep 00 - 04:26 PM Travellers - if you've never come across "traveller" used as a term of abuse Dave Oesterreich, you can't be living in England.
Anyway here is a short dissertation about it, since several people have indicated they aren't sure what it means.
The term came into wider use in a formal way back in the sixties, for two reasons.
The first reason is because it is useful general term to include a wide range of people. "Gypsies" historically is a term that only really applies to Romanies/Roma, who are the descendants of people who left North India many hundred years ago. While many of them have continued to keep on the move, in some places they have settled down and still stayed distinct from their neighbours.
But not all "Gypsies" are on the move; and by no means all people who have a travelling way of life are Romanies. In particular in Ireland and in Scotland there have been wandering groups of people with other origins, often called tinkers, because of traditional skills in mending cans and so forth.
And there have also been at all times people who have had to take to the road because of things that have happened in their lives - that especially happened in Ireland an Scotland with evictions.
And all these different people with all their different origins have at times intermingled, and you get people who are partly from one origin and partly from another. The word didacoi has been used for people who are partly Romany, and partly not, or who have a Romany way of life but aren't from Romany families.
So the word "traveller" was a word which referred to the way of life, rather than to the ethnic origin. And it is a way of countering the many people - including the present Home Secretary of England, Jack Straw - who have gone in for the "these aren't real Romanies - they are just Didacoi" sort of argument.
And the other thing about the word has been that all the other words - Gypsy, Tinker, Didacoi, and many more, have been used as insults, and still are so used.
But since there is still prejudice and hostility towards the people involved, inevitably the word "traveller" has now become used in a hostile sense as well. It's commonplace to see pubs with signs "No Travellers."
And what has confused matters more is that there was the phenomenon of "New Age Travellers", which was the term used for hippie type ex-housedwellers who took to the road in beat up, (and often beautifully decorated) vehicles, trying to run or attend free festivals and so forth. And these were joined by other people for whom a life on the road seemed a better option than staying-on in some squalid run down part of the city. And they came in for some vicious persecution and harassment, and the press always reported in terms of "Traveller convoys".
So the term Traveller is now a thoroughly confused one, because sometimes when people use it they mean specifically "New Age Travellers", and sometimes they mean just Gypsies, and sometime they use it to mean any and all of them.
And some traditional travellers don't like being associated with the post-hippies and so forth, because it means they find themselves up against two lots of prejudice at once, so they don't like the term. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: GUEST,Marc Date: 19 Sep 00 - 05:45 PM I guess this discussion just goes to show every thing is relitive. I work at a maritime museum in the northeast(US), untill recently performing music of the sea. A few years back we were critisized because our coffee cups said something about"Sailors liked there coffee as strong as love, and as black as sin." So we discuss changing the cups. (I don't remember what we did.) A few months latter the complainant is at a music program I'm doing and requests, at different times, Paddy works on the railway, and old Moke pickin on a banjo. I, trying to be polite oblige with a very detailed explanation af both chanties. Latter ,so as not to insult him, I ask this guy. How come you find the comment "black as sin" offensive, yet have no problem with racial slurs like Paddy, and Moke. He answers. Oh those are just nicknames, anyway those cultures haven't suffered anywhere near as much. Everything is relitive. Marc |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Jeri Date: 19 Sep 00 - 06:12 PM Marc, I do Old Moke, but I thought "moke" just meant a man. Would you please explain the racial slur? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bill D Date: 19 Sep 00 - 06:48 PM *sigh*...there's no winning...I did appreciate Bob Schwarer's comment "...there are those who have found a career in being offended." ....I have said myself that there are folks whose major hobby is flaunting their ethnic heritage and being offended at any remarks about it. I am Scots-Irish, and I care about and appreciate my history...but the jokes about it seldom bother me, IF they are good jokes, because most humorous stereotypes are based on 'some' exaggerated truth. The trick is in NOT being cruel and NOT simply using hateful jokes to belittle ANY group. It takes some listening & thinking to separate a clever, but rude joke from a friendly, funny one. If in doubt, wait!...and the remark about MEMBERS of a group having freedom to make reamrks that outsiders shouldn't, is right on!.... I worked once for a Russian Jew in a salvage yard...gruff old fellow who exemplified several sterotypes..*grin*..one day, we were unloading a truck, we almost dropped a piece of machinery as Dave watched.. "Hey..be careful, there...that's worth money!", he said, "You break it, we have to shoot you!" "Oh, Dave", replied my co-worker, "You gonna line us up by the shed there?" "No", replied Dave, straight-faced, "we tie you...back -to-back...save one bullet!" We were astounded..Dave NEVER made jokes, but he did then...and it was a joke that only HE could make..we would never have made a 'tightwad Jewish joke'...but it was funny HEARING it from him. Here in this forum, we have had many 'offenses'...some intentional, some innocent...and I'm sure there will be more....both sides need to be careful. Not every remark needs to be placed under a microscope...but not every remark needs to be made, either!
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: bbelle Date: 19 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM KimC ... I live in Tallahassee FL and I'm an alumna of Florida State University and a Seminoles fan. (sorry, max, we still won fair and square I am a Jew and you can call me "a Jew" "Jewish" "a landsman." Please, however, do not refer to a Jew as a "kike," in my presence, because I will explain that it is a derogatory term. I have friends of color, who interchangeably use the terms "African-American" and "Black." I have asked which term is proper and the answers are always mixed. Since I can't always remember who prefers who, I also use the term interchangeably. I am not a bigot and my friends know that and accept that whichever term I do use is respectful. I have friends of all colors, religions, creeds, and tenets. I don't tell ethnic jokes and I now walk away when someone does start telling one. For professional reasons, I don't make a "lesson" of it, but given the opportunity and the right moment, I will state my feelings. On this forum, I have friends, who comes from many walks of life, religions, colors, etc. I wouldn't for the life of me say anything that would hurt any of them. Over the last week, I have been reduced to tears many time because of what I have read. The anguish in Aine's voice was what made me sit up and say, aloud I might add, that I won't listen to cultural slurs anymore, regardless of who is doing the talking. She is my hero and "brought it all home" to me. I think PC-politically correct is a term borne out of a groups of peoples' desire to still say derogatory things about a culture, just to say it in a nicer way. We've already discussed this issue as regarding people who are deaf, physically-handicapped, etc. Most people who use PC terms are not trying to make a cultural slur sound nicer, they just use PC because they think it's expected of them. There's no crime in that. It is a crime, however, to not know the difference. So, it is my opinion, that if you don't know if the term is "nice," then don't say it because you run the risk of hurting someone you'd least imagine. moonjen (back and feeling strong) PC: I am vertically-challenged with culturally-diverse hair. Real: I'm short and my hair is coarse, curly, crinkly, bushy, and has a mind of its own.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:17 PM Moonchild, you say that if you don't know if a term is "nice" don't use it. That would rule out a huge part of EVERYONE's vocabulary. I had no idea until this thread that there could possibly be a question about "traveller" (or "traveler" as I would spell it), and then only about an hour ago I found out what was meant in a questionable way. There is no way I could have avoided it, never knowing there was a question. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: GUEST,Dave "Mr. Dressup" Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:38 PM Well, it's now time for me to get up on my soap box. I believe that words become offensive to people in direct proportion to the threat or worry of VIOLENCE in whatever society they live. Human stupidity causes many people to vent their childish frustrations or emotional insecurities against anyone they can invent some bull-sh*t "reason" to hate or denigrate. This is the source of most racism, sexism, or whatever like forms of denigration of one human upon another. When a lot of these type of cruel glorified school-yard bullies use a certain word to refer to their victims, then using those words (like "nigger" for example) are associated with the cruelty of the morons involved in racist/sexist/whatever-else-ist violence or denigration in any other form. When people in a certain group feel the fear of violence or economic threat, these words become more threatening to them. I am half Italian (as far as my ancestry is concerned; I was born in Canada). My grandfather came from Italy when he was 17 (he's 92 now), and to him the word "wop" holds a terrible sting because he encountered much predjudice against him when he first came to Canada many decades ago. Myself and the younger members of my family have never really encountered any severe predjudice or violence based on our being Italian, and so the word "wop" does not bother us very much. This may sound odd, but I believe that ANY word can lose a lot of its sting if a prolonged period of LACK OF VIOLENCE is maintained. If people feel less fear, words take on less of a menacing tone as generations progress. OK, I'll let someone else talk now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: bbelle Date: 19 Sep 00 - 07:45 PM doesterr ... But now you do know. I never knew that the term "traveller" was a cultural slur, either, but now I do and I won't use it. None of us is born knowing which words are cultural slurs. Now, wouldn't that be great?!? It's called learning as you go and hopefully we don't make the same mistakes twice. moonjen (thanks, 'spaw) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: DougR Date: 19 Sep 00 - 08:29 PM Scuse, Dave, but I think you were addressing Moonjen's message, not Moonchild. :>) DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:05 PM Spaw - your supply is hardly "a beauty". In fact, it would be no exaggeration to say that it resembles a wilted, month-old zuchinni suspended between two green chokecherries. At least, that's what I heard from one of your exgirlfriends...you know, the one with the braided armpits and the mohawk? :-)))) It is indeed extraordinary that Native Americans (American Indians...aboriginals...whatever...you know who I mean) would object to sports teams using names associated with American Indians. After all, the reason the sports team is using the name is precisely because those American Indians are seen as brave, resourceful, fast, effective, and so on. So why would it be seen as pejorative in some way? Suppose a team is called "the Pirates" or "the Buccaneers" or "the Crusaders" or "the Knights". Is this pejorative or insulting to pirates and knights? No, it isn't. One wonders whether some lawyer could convince the knights and pirates to take legal action against such a name, if there were a sizable minority of knights and pirates present in society these days? Well, I wouldn't be surprised if that happened. Silly? Damn right it's silly! I love American Indian values, and I see absolutely no harm in calling a team "the Indians", the "Redskins" or whatever. If someone does see harm in it, he's got either way too much time on his hands, or he's got a very large chip on his shoulder. That's the way it seems to me. If you want brotherhood, try spreading some by your own good will first, instead of nitpicking on everybody else for every little cultural thing that doesn't match your idea of a perfect world. Little Hawk has spoken. (to use a typical Indian style remark...it used to be, anyway). The point is, what is the real motivation behind naming a team the Redskins? The motivation is to show that the team is pugnacious, tough, and a good team. If the motivation is not harmfully intended, then what is the problem? If I hold a door open for someone, it is not condescension, it's normal courtesy. I hold doors open for anyone whatsoever...even Spaw. (couldn't resist that!) I had a black girlfriend for awhile. Excellent girl. One day we got in a big debate about the word "black". You're not "black", I said, you're coffee-coloured...like coffee with cream in it...so what's all this about black? (I was kind of kidding around at the time). Well, we got into quite a debate about that! Then I pointed out that I am not "white". Not even slightly! I'm a sort of pink, with overtones and undertones of a variety of other colours (talk to a good portrait painter about that)...but I am NOT WHITE! We've both been described in a completely false way by these words, I told her...so why don't we just dump the whole thing and be human instead...I'm a pink human and you're a brown human. She started to laugh at that point, thankfully. The only thing that matters is: what are your actual intentions?...not what words you use. Of course, a lazy mind would rather just deal with the bare words than go to all the trouble of digging deeper and figuring out what somebody else is actually trying to say. And thus, we get extraordinary books like Huckleberry Finn censored and banned by people who can't bother to think or look beyond the end of their own prejudice. I also find it intriguing that certain liberals will accuse conservatives of being bigots for challenging some political correctness...and certain conservatives will accuse liberals of being bigots for precisely the same reason!!! They both accuse the other of the same nefarious intentions in regard to this issue. In so doing they reveal only their own bigotry toward the other group. Now, that's funny. A plague on both their houses, I say! There are bigots on both the right and the left in every society...and bigots are most enamoured of political correctness...as long as it slants in the direction that happens to suit their particular set of prejudices. It's the very opposite of the credo "Live and let Live". Red China, for example, is a bastion of political correctness of the most extreme sort, and always has been. There, they shoot you for violating their notions of political correctness. As they do in most dictatorships. A "traveller", as far as I know, is someone enroute to a destination. Oh, by the way, I find any number of things offensive. Baseball caps on backwards, TV's in restaurants, loud drunks, aggressive people, Spaw's lack of underwear, the word "Nu-cu-lar", aggressive proselatizers of various fundamentalist faiths, aggressive atheists, some lawyers, some bankers, some politicians, boom cars, jetskis, loud motorboats, snowmobiles, O.J.Simpson, Bart Simpson, Jesse Helms, and on, and on, and on... My reaction to that is...to instead concentrate MOST of my time and attention on things I like, people I like, work I like, and situations I like. I'm gonna go and do that right now. If ya don't like it, write a letter to Ann Landers or something. Bye, bye... Live and let Live. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: catspaw49 Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:17 PM .....uh,huh..........."Its" doesn't need an apostrophe. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Sep 00 - 10:30 PM I know that, Spaw, but GEEEZ! Now I gotta look through the whole damn posting and find out which "its" or "it's" you mean...and even then I can't fix it. It's a real drag and it's not even worth its own amount of time to do so...is it? What say we launch a "pedantic grammar nazi" thread? On second thought...NO! Anything but open that can of worms again.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Terry K Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:15 AM I'm not sure you're using the word "pedantic" in its strictly correct meaning. Cheers, Terry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Ebbie Date: 20 Sep 00 - 02:11 AM Look again, Spaw: if your referring to LH's "...it's normal courtesy", he's kerect. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Airto Date: 20 Sep 00 - 07:26 AM Some words are clearly pejorative and always were, such as nigger, kike and wop. Others, such as tinker, have become pejorative (something to do with the way certain people spit it out, I think). And others still, such as coloured and alien, while sounding neutral are in fact discriminatory because of the concept of otherness they contain. But isn't there another category comprised by words which are in themselves OK even though the group being described is oppressed? To my mind, the existence of pubs with 'No Traveller' signs doesn't make the term traveller pejorative in itself any more than the 'No blacks or Irish' signs, which used to be commonplace in England, put those terms out of bounds. Finally, I would like to know into which of the above categories people think the term gypsy should go. It is only in the last few days that I've become aware of possible doubts about its acceptability.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Sep 00 - 08:57 AM I didn't mean to say that traveller - spell it how you like - is a term to avoid. It's as good a term as any to refer to people who have a wandering way of life, either of their own choosing or because it has been forced on them. But it needs to be used with tact, and it's as well to be aware of the different meanings it has. (I once met someone who had assumed that that "No travellers" in a pub meant no "commercial travellers" coming in and trying to get the landlady or the customers to buy things they don't need, like double-glazing or extra insurance.) If someone would sooner be called a Gypsy, that's the word you use.
And please, could we do without using that nasty word "moron" - it's got too many associations from its origins as a nasty term used by nasty pseudo-scientists: moron.n A term used by American psychologists and criminologists of children and adult persons of feeble, undeveloped, or degenerate mind or character. (Dictionary definition.)
And I'm not objecting because I think using the word insults the kind of people Dave Dressup used it of by likening them to people with learning difficulties, but because it insults people with learning difficulties by likening them to insensitive oafs like the people Dave is referring to.
(Other than that I think what Dave Dressup says is pretty spot-on. Except I'd extend "violence" to include the kind of hostility and suspicion that lies behind it, and is often present even when outright violence does not occur.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Sep 00 - 09:46 AM The word "moron", curiously enough, spawned (!) an entire genre of jokes when my mother was a kid, back in the 30's and 40's. They were like Newfie jokes or elephant jokes... What did the little moron say when his bicycle fell over...? What did the little moron do when the moon was blue...? How do you get a little moron to tie his shoes? And so on, and so on...apparently there were hundreds of them, all using the term "little moron". Strange, eh? Has anyone else heard about this particular variety of running joke? It appears to have run its course by the end of the 40's. And I think we can all be thankful for that! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: GUEST Date: 20 Sep 00 - 12:13 PM Yes, 4 words: imbecile, idiot, moron, and cretin are all scientific words that were created to catagorise the level of metal retardation of adults and children. The terms identify at what age level a person's mental capacity is. They are classed as syndromes as well, e.g. cretinism. Not funny. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: rabbitrunning Date: 20 Sep 00 - 12:16 PM Nope, sorry, the little moron jokes were still very much around on the playgrounds when I was a kid in Denver in the mid-to-late 1960's. Mind you, we took moron to mean someone who was too dumb to put an ice cream cone in his mouth instead of on his forehead, so even at the age of ten I thought that they were cartoons. We moved to Omaha when I was fourteen. There I heard a lot of the same jokes (from Polish friends) as Polack jokes and was appalled! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 20 Sep 00 - 12:42 PM In Minnesota,years ago, the Polack, Ethnickian, Kentuckian (et cetera, et cetera, ad nauseam) jokes showed up frequently as Finnlander jokes. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Airto Date: 20 Sep 00 - 12:52 PM I felt I needed some clarification, McGrath, because I'd noticed some people vowing in this and other current threads to stop using the terms traveller and gypsy on the grounds that they cause offence. Would you agree that, when used with precision, these terms are not in themselves derogatory, and are in fact useful? And that there's no need for people to ditch them?
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: GUEST,petr Date: 20 Sep 00 - 01:58 PM In Canada now, the term is first nations (as opposed to Native Indian). The story that I would like to relate is about the west coast nations that took offense when staff in the UBC museum of anthropology would explain the story behind totem poles to tourists. Now, each totem pole is somewhat like a coat of arms or family crest and often involves a tale involving animals such as ravens, killer whales etc. But in recent years it has come to light that the story of a given totem pole or carving can only be told by a member of that family. It cannot be told by anyone. In their culture that would be a terrible offense and might offend the spirits of their ancestors or some such reason. It got to the point when the museum staff would explain the meaning behind the beautifully carved entrance doors (by well known Haida artist Bill Reid who was of mixed heritage) first nations protesters would stand at their side and cry "you cannot tell that story, you have no right". Consequently the museum staff no longer do so, they simply say they cannot tell the story. My only reaction to that is that it is a little sad that that it is a kind of censorship - that it would be offensive to them for anyone to tell the folktale. Also, that the tales themselves will inevitably be lost as the families disappear. Essentially it is about respect for one cultures beliefs and values. A few years ago there was a lawsuit of human rights violations brought by group of Sikhs who were refused entry (at a cab drivers convention) because the hall they rented was a Royal Canadian Legion and the rules of every legion hall require that all headgear be removed out of respect. The outcome ultimately was that the legion hall had to alter their rules.. but who decides which cultures rules take predence or which is more valid. Similarly in a court case involving a trial of the Air India bombing (in which over 300 perished, and yet received scant coverage in the US), when a defence lawyer mentioned that all Sikhs are bound by their religion to carry a ceremonial sword and the judge mentioned that no weapons are allowed in the courtroom there was an uproar. Petr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Sep 00 - 02:13 PM I quite agree, Airto. With accuracy and tactfully there's nothing wrong with them. People are insulted when there is an intent of insulting; and when there is an inaccuracy which is insulting in itself. "Didacoi" is perhaps a different matter from "gypsy" or "traveller" - in a way it's a word like "half-caste". I've never heard it used except when there is a hostile intent.
"What's black and blue and floats in the bay?" The last fella that told a Newfie joke in here..." I'd like to think that's based on a true incident. And there's versions of that for "Irish jokes" and "Polack jokes" and "Kerryman jokes" and the rest. But probably not for "moron jokes", which makes them a good bit worse than the others. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Penny S. Date: 20 Sep 00 - 06:52 PM The way I learned it, cretinism was related to iodine deficiency, and a collection of symptoms found in people who developed as foetuses where the element was in short supply, where adults might be found with goitre. It included a failure of brain development. Rather different from simply age relating the development, but it doesn't excuse the term being used as an insult. A friend of mine asked me about the insult "paki unit", not recognising the second part. I knew. We have a special needs language unit attached to our school, and the children there are referred to as units, with the same derogatory meaning as cretin etc. We try to stop it... Penny |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Lepus Rex Date: 20 Sep 00 - 07:33 PM Thread creep, here: Dave, yeah, Finns were one of the nationalities considered 'less than white' back in the old days, due to their Uralic language and (by Swedish standards) often 'Eastern' looks. A friend of mine has actually talked to people up North who feared her because she's Finnish; some folks up there still think Finnish and Saami people all know witchcraft ("Whoa, like, I was just kidding about Finnlanders... You're not gonna, like, curse me, are you?"). Sort of sad, but SHE enjoyed it:) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: bob schwarer Date: 21 Sep 00 - 06:37 AM This from http://bonehead.oddballs.com/ Bonehead award three goes to the Boeing Company. It's a political correctness gone mad award. Now this is dangerous because the last time I gave Boeing a bonehead award they started bouncing all the mailings that go to Boeing employees. But we'll give it a go anyway. I received the following from a Boeing employee, Lynda. Thanks, Lynda! In Lynda's words: Y'know those big round things that hang from the wings of a jet airplane - the things that make it go? Well, here in Boeing's 737 factory we have recently been informed that we may not call them "engines" anymore. Seems that somebody got offended because "engine" sounds too much like "Injun" and they felt it was a racial slur. We are supposed to call them "powerplants" now. Really. What next? Bob S. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Ringer Date: 21 Sep 00 - 10:15 AM I'm afraid I can't see the problem with the "little moron" jokes: they can, surely, only be seen as slurs against the intellectually deficient by joyless humourless oafs with no imagination. They're merely puns on the word moron. Doesn't PC allow puns? (I must confess that I can't think of the funny replies to Little Hawk's examples - except possibly the first - so I've assumed they're all in the same category as the only such joke I can remember: There were two morons on a bridge. Why did only the big one fall off? Because the other was a little more on.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: GUEST Date: 21 Sep 00 - 10:23 AM Not surprising, considering you call the French 'revolting' |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: rabbitrunning Date: 21 Sep 00 - 10:50 AM As a children's librarian I run into people all the time who think that no one outside a culture can possibly interpret anything about someone or something from that culture. These people get annoyed with me for telling or singing African/South American/African-American/etc. folktales and songs because I'm white. Then I get the people who think that children should only ever hear stories and songs from their "own" culture. They get mad at me for telling Irish/French/Polish/Norwegian/etc. stories or songs to "children of color." The kids don't care. If the story's a good one, they want to hear it again and again and again. I liked the early sixties, when Multiculturalism meant that everybody sang everybody's songs.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Ringer Date: 21 Sep 00 - 01:27 PM Which bit's not surprising, GUEST? If you want to argue, you must address my argument, not my (admittedly feeble) attempts at humour in another thread. There, you'll have noticed, I also refer to the English (my own nation) as revolting. I'm making a pun: revolting can mean "being in a state of revolt" as well as "inspiring revulsion". In the pre-PC days, puns used to be reckoned humourous. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 21 Sep 00 - 02:15 PM I think the PC craze seems to work backwards. In other words, after hearing protestations over short(Vertically Challenged), poor (Financially disadvantaged), and so on ad nauseum, then the joke versions ie; garbageman/sanitation engineer, the real injustices tend to get lumped in and discredited with the fake. It's very much like the African American who swears hid diarrhea is the direct result of the white man or the high school drop out of some minority who insists that NASA passed him ove for that white, male, Protestant, graduate of MIT, based on skin color. Enough of these and the genuine unfair hiring practice get laughed at. I will admit, on the other hand, that I once told a friend (with all the feigned indignation I could muster with a straight face) that I would prefer to be called a "European American" Slán, Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Lonesome EJ Date: 21 Sep 00 - 02:41 PM DaveO...Kentuckian Jokes?! What's this? Actually,my daughter had The Drew Carey Show on last night and I heard what I suppose was a Kentuckian Joke... Drew- "I couldn't get to first base with her." Drew's Pal- "Oh? What exactly is first base?" Drew- "I'm not sure,but in Kentucky second base is a barrel." Lame joke. And consider this. Drew Carey and Catspaw are Ohioans. Abraham Lincoln and I are from Kentucky. I rest my case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 21 Sep 00 - 03:01 PM Here in Indiana, what might be Polack, Finnlander, or Moron jokes are often Kentuckian jokes. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 00 - 05:03 PM "I'm afraid I can't see the problem with the "little moron" jokes: they can, surely, only be seen as slurs against the intellectually deficient by joyless humourless oafs with no imagination. They're merely puns on the word moron."
Well I suppose you could think up punning jokes about "little Nigger" or "little Yid" too if you set your mind to it. But I wouldn't advise it.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Ringer Date: 22 Sep 00 - 03:49 AM But would you advise against it, McGrath, on the grounds that it would be wrong (or insensitive or demeaning or whatever) or merely that it would stir up a hornets' nest? If the former, then I might want to debate your reasoning but if you convinced me then I wouldn't make the joke. If the latter, then I think I'd pack antihistamine but joke away. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Dave the Gnome Date: 22 Sep 00 - 05:22 AM Seeing as I started the thread I guess I had better try to round it off? Seems like everyone is in some sort of agreement that racist/sexist/anything-else-ist slurs are a problem. On the other hand political correctness, in my opionion and that of a good few contributers, seems to cause its own problems as well. We are all, hopefuly, like minded, mature individuals here. We don't need the rules applied by the humourless beaurocrats of Whitehall, Washington or wherever else in the world. Let's use our common sense instead. Don't make purposely offensive statements but don't, on the other hand, take offense at anyone requesting or posting songs with offensive lyrics. Words and meanings change constantly. Just because I sing about a gay fuselier doesn't mean I am promoting or decrying homosexuality in the armed forces. I don't, however, sing my Suzie, she's a niggers gal because I feel uncomfortable with the term. (Original version of the Hooker John shanty BTW - I substitute the word with sailor and it scans just as well.) At the end of the day if we are good at self government we will not need interference from the thought police at all! Cheers one and all for submitting and making an interesting and informative discussion. Dave the gnome, still British and proud of it. or should I say Dave the verticaly challenged, Vive la France! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 00 - 05:52 AM "But would you advise against it, McGrath, on the grounds that it would be wrong (or insensitive or demeaning or whatever) or merely that it would stir up a hornets' nest?"
Primarily on the former grounds. But you never can tell, there might be a parent or a brother of someone with a learning disability standing next to you. And more strength to their elbow. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: CamiSu Date: 22 Sep 00 - 10:02 AM Gee, seems like I'm too late, it's all been said, and wrapped up. However, I would add my voice to those that say some words are hateful in themselves, (I still can feel the hurt/shock I felt, when a classmate called my friend 'nigger', which I'm sure wasn't a patch on what SHE felt.) Some I know are slurs, but I don't know against who, (and thanks moonjen for educating me that one, I'd never known who that referred to) and others are simply identifiers used with no malice. (I am a short, brown-haired, middle-aged --oh no! that hurts!--woman of mostly European ancestry. Lots of words.) I use the word Traveller with respect and I think it has been pretty clear on this forum that most people have meant it that way. I DO think that overboard PC, such as the NY State stuff and avoiding words that only SOUND like slurs (engine? Oh, PLEASE!!!) Maybe some people need to carry a dictionary. That said I think there needs to be, as well as careful listening, careful speaking. Little Hawk, it is not just listeners that need to avoid laziness. It is more work to think about what we say, but it is worth what we gain as our children learn to be more and more accepting of differences, until tolerance turns to welcome. p.s. Pitr, what if the stories of the totems were written, either by the artist (who is certainly telling the original story) or by a member of that particular clan? Then the stories don't get lost, and the restrictions are met. Respect on both sides. Cami Su |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: leprechaun Date: 22 Sep 00 - 10:07 AM Q. How many politically correct people does it take to change a lightbulb? A. THAT'S NOT FUNNY! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bert Date: 22 Sep 00 - 11:21 AM And what about that guy who got fired for saying 'niggardly'? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Lepus Rex Date: 22 Sep 00 - 11:31 AM bert, I was going to mention that guy earlier, but couldn't remember his name. That was Washington D.C. ombudsman David Howard, and he was actually forced to resign. I belive he was re-hired later. Here's an article from Salon. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bert Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:03 PM Thanks for finding him, I couldn't remember who he was either. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Wolfgang Date: 22 Sep 00 - 12:57 PM Which affair (D. Howard) was made even more complicated since Howard was the first openly gay appointee of the Mayor and the respective pressure group intervened on Howards behalf (he was rehired). The affair led to some remarkable citations as: 'You hate to think you have to censor your language to meet other people's lack of understanding,' and to follow up protests: Student Demands 'Niggardly' be Prohibited at University of Wisconsin (02/03/99) Student Amelia Rideau is upset that her professor used the 'N-ardly' word at least twice: Once on Jan. 25 during a class on 14th-century English poet Geoffrey Chaucer, and once in a subsequent class to explain the word's meaning. Ms. Rideau was outraged, and is demanding the UW implement a speech code which would punish anyone using what she described as 'offensive' language - including the 'N-ardly' word. She urged the university not to require proof of intent before punishing verbal villains such as her professor. According to the Star Tribune: "Upset about the word' s similarity to a racial slur, Rideau talked to her professor, who then explained the word' s background, she said. On Friday, the professor repeated the word and defined it for the class, Rideau said. Angry he revisited the topic after she asked him not to, Rideau began to cry and stormed from the room. On Monday, she brought three black friends with her to the class for support, she said." (Associated Press, via Star Tribune 02/03/99) [link http://www2.startribune.com/cgi-bin/stOnLine/article?thisStory=70706124 ] Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Lepus Rex Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:09 PM Wow, I missed that last story, Wolfgang. It'd be almost funny if it weren't so sad that a college student was ignorant of the meaning and etymology of the word 'niggardly.' That's a word I've known since... I was a kid. And I ain't got no book-learnin'. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: mousethief Date: 22 Sep 00 - 01:15 PM So what you're saying, Lepus, is that your education is niggardly but your vocabulary ain't?
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:07 PM Getting back to Seminoles and Utes and so forth - if it was Seminoles and Utes etc objecting, I could relate to that. "First the bastards steal our country - now they are stealing our names". But from what's been said here that doesn't seem to be where the objections came.
But I'd see it as only elementary good manners in such a case to get the approval of the tribal council or whatever. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: mousethief Date: 22 Sep 00 - 02:15 PM Ironically there is some pressure (not a lot) to get the Cleveland Indians to change the name of their team. This is ironic because the team was named in honor of an actual Native American baseball player from the early years of the 1900's (whose name (alas!) I have forgotten). Ignorance is a dangerous thing. (and I should know!)
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: DougR Date: 22 Sep 00 - 04:06 PM We have a mountain peak here in Phoenix, Arizona, that has always been referred to as "Squaw Peak." A relatively new freeway that runs by "Squaw Peak" is also named the "Squaw Peak Expressway." There have been several efforts made since PC became popular to change the name of both of them. Leaders of the movement to change are two young Native American girls who have had some success in getting various name changes made in the West because they felt the names (Native American related) were not PC. So far, the peak and the freeway names have not been changed. Do I think the names should be changed? No. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bert Date: 22 Sep 00 - 04:10 PM My daughter tells me that Squaw means prostitute. I would suggest that that's what they be called from now on. 'Prostitue Peak' has a nice ring to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: mousethief Date: 22 Sep 00 - 04:15 PM The "Squaw"="Prostitute" thing is an urban myth. Look at snopes.com. We had a creek here (near Seattle) called "Nigger Creek" which the WHITE folks worked hard to change the name of, but the BLACK folks wanted it kept, because it was a historical marker of the fact that a black man homesteaded there in our state's pioneer days. His name was something boring like Johnson, and the powers-that-be ultimately changed the name of the creek to Johnson Creek in his honor, but that (according to the people fighting the name change) doesn't relay the fact that a large chunk of Snohomish County was owned by a freedman in the mid-to-late 1800s to the person driving over the creek or seeing it on a map. PC is funny business, ain't it?
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bert Date: 22 Sep 00 - 04:19 PM Well my daughter got it from her tribal leaders - but what would they know? BTW Alex, I love your additions to the Mudcat Songbook. Great songs are what this place is all about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: mousethief Date: 22 Sep 00 - 04:39 PM Tribal leaders can be wrong. I'm sure you'll agree, one doesn't have to be a WASP to be fooled by an urban legend. :-) Thanks for the compliment on the songs. I think it's the one thing I do reasonably well (although that is always open for debate!).
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Bert Date: 22 Sep 00 - 05:22 PM Thanks for the link Alex. YOU can be the one to tell Rachael though;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: bbelle Date: 22 Sep 00 - 05:26 PM I moved from Portland, Oregon, to Fairbanks, Alaska, and the culture shock was enormous. The worst was in the prejudice against the Eskimos and Indians. I couldn't believe the bigotry and the words used to describe these wonderful people. And, lest someone wants to point out to me this Eskimo or that Indian, who did this or that, just as in real life, there are those who do not make their heritage proud. My point is not the latter, but the fact that, no matter who they are, they are treated with abject prejudice. Remember, I'm talking about Fairbanks, specifically, and cannot speak for Juneau, Anchorage, etc. One day I mentioned to a group, with whom I worked, that I was going blueberry picking with my sis. Without batting an eye, one of them told me to be careful of the "niggerheads." My chin hit the floor. I asked her if she didn't mean "tussocks?" She said oh, yeah, but the tops are all nappy like "nigger's hair," so that's what everyone calls them. When my sis and I arrived at the berry patch, I asked her what these "things" are called. She looked at me very straight and said "tussocks, but some people have a different name for them." Again, this occurred in Fairbanks and I have no knowledge whether the term is used in other locals, not is it everyone in Fairbanks, who used the term, because there are many who wouldn't. So, if a prejudicial term is acceptable to a region of people, is it acceptable to all?
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: DougR Date: 23 Sep 00 - 04:57 PM Moonjen: Nope. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: bbelle Date: 23 Sep 00 - 05:15 PM Doug: Exactly my sentiments. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: CamiSu Date: 23 Sep 00 - 07:05 PM Moonjen, That is astonishing! I can hardly believe anyone in the US in this day and age would then continue with her explanation, given your reaction. Impolite AND insensitive, or is the word 'numb'? Not acceptable here. Cami Su |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: bbelle Date: 23 Sep 00 - 07:17 PM Cami Su ... Not so suprising, considering this is the same person who, upon discovering I'm Jewish, said: "Huh. I never seen a Jewesh person before. Your nose ain't big like the rest of 'em. Good thing. giggle giggle giggle" Please note - The above are not typos or grammatical errors. It is written verbatim. No, it isn't acceptable. I left that job, within a few weeks, because of the way people "talked." And, it was quite evident that I didn't fit into whatever niche they'd carved for themselves.
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: mousethief Date: 23 Sep 00 - 08:01 PM Native Alaskans have had nothing but grief, it seems, since the purchase. In the book "Orthodox Alaska" it tells of how the US gov't sent Presbyterian "missionaries" to the "heathens" -- the people in question were Russian Orthodox, and their priests were all Alaska-born natives (some of mixed blood but many pure Tlingit/etc.). They were told that they were Americans now and their prayer books and gospel books, written in the cyrillic alphabet but in their various tribal languages, were burned, and their children were forcibly removed from their parents and sent to boarding schools on the mainland where they were "Americanized." My heart goes out to the natives of Alaska, and it pains me to hear your story, although I'm glad you mentioned it.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: MarkS Date: 23 Sep 00 - 08:47 PM Everybody should come to Pennsylvania. Here we tell Amish jokes with no problem at all. Since they don't read the newspapers, listen to the radio, or watch television, so they don't know to get indignant about the behavior of the rest of us! MarkS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Political Correctness From: Frankham Date: 24 Sep 00 - 01:05 PM The problem as I see it is that the term "Politically Correct" which emanated from the left wing movement as a criticism of itself became a political tool for those who adovocate hate politics. Refraining from referring to someone by a derogatory name is not "political correctness" as I understand the term. It applies to an acceptance and unasailability of an orthodoxy of a system of government. Using racial epithets or derogatory language in a dramatic context to enlighten folks against this kind of practice is useful as in the intent of Twain's sympathy for the plight of his character in Tom Sawyer. Also, under controlled circumstances and in the proper context, a song might be presented for historical reasons to show a particular period of history even if it was obnoxious without offense if taken in the proper spirit by an audience. Here, an editorial policy on the part of the performer is in order. Those who holler ethnic slurs can't hide behind the line of defense that castigates enlightened people from recoiling in protest or disgust by calling them PC. In short, the term PC is now being used as a political weapon by those with malice. They know they offend and sort of roll in it like a pig in you know what. I applaud Rick's "Ethically Conscious" like to see this being added to the dialogue. There is this: those who defend the use of inappropriate racial slurs because they follow a system of logic that says it's ok for them to do it could also be called PC. It cuts both ways. Frank |