What happened to all those drums?

Subject: What happened to all those drums?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 02:08 AM

I was listening to Kate Rusby's "Hourglass" CD today, listening to the yummy percusion on a couple of the cuts, and it started me thinking. The bodhran is a traditional instrument, right? And Celtic music, in particular, is often quite percussive, right?

So ... given that the ancestry of many a U.S. citizen is Irish and Scots, and that this music is full of drumming, what the heck happened to all those drums? By the time the music crossed the ocean and ended up in Appalachia or in Southern music, generally, and certainly in what we have thought of for years as "Irish" music, the percussion seems to have gotten lost.

I've read lots and lots of pioneer diaries and I know for a fact that the whites in the Westward migration in this country, who were for the most part Irish and Scots immigrants, were very frightened of the drumming of both the African slaves and freedmen, and of the Native Americans. Granted, because they were traipsing across other people's land, they might have had a reason or two to wonder if the drums were beating out the sound of their own demise. But still, it seems as though the percussive aspect of their own music would have traveled with them.

So, what happened?

WW

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: BigDaddy
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 02:27 AM

Although mention of the bodhran as a Celtic instrument appears as far back, I believe, as the time of Julius Caesar, it seems to have vanished ages ago. Its resurrection would appear to be a fairly recent phenomenon (last thirty years). Conversing with an aged Irishman at the Gaelic League one evening a couple of years ago...we were talking about Irish music and he mentioned he didn't really care for the Chieftains. When I asked him why he replied, "they're all fine musicians and make some good music, but they're always using that damn drum!" Growing up in Ireland any time during the first half of this century, the bodhran was not a familiar thing. I would guess one would be hard-pressed to find reference to the bodhran anywhere from around 1000 AD up until, as I said, the past thirty years. It could well be that the drum was suppressed, as were the pipes and harp. When the Irish and Scots migrated to this side of the pond (17th & 18th centuries), I doubt that many brought instruments. Once here, the fiddle seems to have been the instrument of choice, with other stringed instruments to follow. Anyway, WW, you've got us off to an interesting start.

J.

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 02:41 AM

I don't have too much to add to BigDaddy's post, other than to note that the concertina and uilleann pipes didn't make it to appalachia either, probably for the same reason as BigDaddy pointed out about the bodhran, that at the time of emigration, those instruments weren't being played that much in Ireland. The music has seemed to gone into long stretches of doldrums and reemerging. The pub session is a pretty recent phenomenon - 50 years or so, I think. Wyo - check out the book Notes From The Heart by P.J. Curtis. He gives a good overview of the whys and wherefores of Irish music's development.

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 02:51 AM

Good question, WW. Here are a couple of sites with interesting articles on the history fo the bodhran:

Click Here;

Or, Here;

and, here is an excerpt from someone's article atthis site; someone who had the same question, sort of:

(their question was why the bodhran didn't become a part of Appalachian music.)"As I started reading, I found the answer to my question. According to the Ceolas bodhran site, the drum has been in existence as a ceremonial and a war drum for more than a thousand years. It wasn't until the 1960's that the bodhran even made its way as a musical instrument into the traditional Irish music scene. It didn't become popular until the 1970's and today is almost always played in accompaniment with Irish music.

My question turned out to be not as difficult to answer as I thought it might be. The reason the bodhran was not carried into traditional Appalachian music was because it wasn't considered a musical instrument until recently. An answer so simple as that was actually a great relief to me because my search for the truth in bodhran history had ended."

kat

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 06:02 AM

As said above, the drum in British culture has mostly been a military thing, plus of course in Scotland at least the town drummers, who it seems sometimes went in tandem with town pipers. I can think of no drums / drummers in old pictures or photos of groups of Scots musicians. Drummers in Scottish country dance bands employ a particularly military snare-led beat, derived I expect from pipe band drummers - another military invention. Drumming in US popular music seems to have come in from the military also, as with brass instruments. It is too simplistic as a total explanation, but ex-military instruments from post American Civil War days were at least part of the source. Until the black influence loosened up the sound of drummers, they were useful for enforcing the march beat, ordering the movements of troops, and of course banging about at the back of orchestras.

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 08:01 AM

chantyranger, as far as I can make out, Wheatstone started development of the concertina in 1829/30. Going by the dates, BigDaddy has given, that would explain the absence of what is such a portable instrument. Also, although the pipes are ancient, I believe the present form of Irish Pipe didn't start to emerge until the 18th century - perhaps these later additions of regulators helped re-kindle and interest in the pipes in Ireland - just a guess.

And kat "[the bodhran] is almost always played in accompaniment with Irish music" - if only it was!

Jon

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 01:33 PM

I've given to understand that the bodhrán really didn't come into the music as much of an instrument until the céilí band evolved, which was purely a matter of volume. When the larger dances got to be to big for one fiddle, they got two fiddles, and gradually started to use this German thingamajig called an accordian,because it was like a fiddle with a built in PA system. As more and more musicians started playing together, the need for one or more people underlining the rhythm became necessary. Actually it was drum kit first but some people felt that it was too modern and so this antiquated old drum that really hadn't had much use came to fill the bill. I'm told their were a few recordings going back to the 20's that included a bodhrán, and one of the Wheels of the World compilations has a track that features bones as rhythm instrument, but it few and far between. My same friend who shared some of the céilí band info, told me he has old recordings of a player who placed a tambourine inside a bodhrán and I've old bodhrán players with bangles on their drums, but Bruce refuses to lend me these recordings for fear I'll bring a tambourine to sessions. (I wouldn't!)

There is of course mention of the bodhrán being used in the hunting of the wren on St. Stephen's day (12/26) going way back, but it's unclear as to in what capacity. I'm given to understand that the hunting of the wren was actuall a sort of door-to-door busking and didn't really have to do with actual hunting. It's also possible that the busking ritual is patterned after an older tradition that actual did involve bird hunting. Of course this is all third or forth hand information that I'm repeating.

And finally, Wyo, thanks for the mention of that "yummy percussion". That sentiment is not very common. Partly due to the fact that there is a common belif about precussive instruments that states that ownership constitutes ablility to play (in public). In fact it is a quicker route to being able to play and I think that this may be responsible for poor etiquette amongst some players. The less time one comes around before playing, the less opportunity to get a feel for the unwritten rules before playing out. I was blessed with a teacher who pounded etiquette into me, and encouraged me to wait a long time before playing, to attend sessions without my drum, before playing, and this is something I pass on to my students. Once again, thanks for the praise of the instrument. It means a lot coming from a "real musician".

Slán agat,
Rich

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 01:40 PM

Also, I'm given to understand, that before players, like Peadar Mercier and ultimately,Johnny McDonagh got a hold of the instrument, it really wasn't much to listen to.

Rich

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 02:53 PM

The percussion was always of course provided by the feet.

In dancing specifically, but also by the musicians's feet.

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 03:24 PM

rich, it is a shame that a number of bodhran players have got the instrument such a bad reputation as it is an excellent instrument in the right hands. Another factor I have noticed is that some people take up the bodhran with the attitude "I don't think I can play an instument but I can play a rythym" - roughly translated as "I don't really want to spend any time learning or listening to others, I just want something to bash so that I feel as if I'm part of the session".

Jon

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 06:29 PM

This set me thinking - do they use bones in any of the American traditions? I know blue grass players don't seem to like any kind of percussion, but that's only one style.

And what about the penny whistle or the flute? Do they have a home in American folk music (apart from in Irish type sessions)?

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 06:56 PM

Anyone know the Gaelic for the ancient Irish curse "May a hundred thousand Bodhran players get drunk and play at your wedding" Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 10:45 PM

I blush to admit that the first time I heard it was on Sinead O'Connor's version of "Foggy Dew" on a Chieftain's album several years ago. And I was spellbound.But then, I'm a sucker for haunting, stirring music of many stripes.

I think the reason you have so many people picking up drums and percussion instruments of various kinds is maybe because of the laziness you mention, Jon, but maybe also because they yearn to make music and the drums and tambourines, etc., do seem more accessible. This yearning to make music exists in most of us, though most of our souls remain mute, perhaps because of a lack of confidence, or a feeling that there's no way we could possibly learn to play something with all those strings or keys.

As one who's been struggling for the past year trying to play guitar and still feeling utterly inept and frustrated by the noise I'm making rather than music, I sympathize. I don't think it serves to ascribe the worst possible motive to people, even if they're clumsy in their execution of the thing. We all start from vast degrees of ignorance and learn, it is hoped, a bit as we go along, thanks to the kindesss and example of other, more experienced musicians.

And thanks, Rich, for including me in that number. I don't quite feel that I've earned that designation ("musician") yet, but I'm at least staying in the game ...

ww

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 11:03 PM

I agree with WW, I love the sounds of drums, esp. the bodhran. The other that I love to listen to is the taiko drum of Japanese culture and the dombek from the middle East. I have CD's of both, nothing but "yummy percussion."

I think some people are just rbash and have no sense of etiquette, no matter the instrument. Wish they'd all had teachers like oyu, Rich.

Jon, that wasn't my quote. What did you mean, that you wish they would only play in Irish sessions or that they aren't heard enough in Irish sessions? Just not clear.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 11:23 PM

OK kat, I see what you mean by not your quote - you were referring to some other reference - sorry. As for what I meant, I was being ironic (I think) - if and when they are played in accompaniment in Irish (or other) music they are great but the sad reality is that they are too frequently battered in a fashion that I could not possibly class as accompaniment.

WW, that is undersandable till they come out to play in sessions and try to dominate. The ones that genuinely realise the might have something to learn play quietly or listen and learn how to fit in.

Jon

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 11:35 PM

Yeah, I know what you mean. Buttheads come in all shapes, sizes and musical orientations. I just do not know how to clue in the devotedly clueless ... Maybe this is where "metal music" came from? It seems to be the right consciousness ...

ww

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 24 Sep 00 - 11:45 PM

I'm glad to read so much positive stuff about percussion. It's a lot of fun under the right circumstances, but it's the easiest instrument to be an asshole with. I found a weird perk to it though. On a visit to Chicago en route to the Milwaukee festival this year I was treated very well at sessions. A lot had to do with the fact that I was playing some fine sessions with some fine players whom all had a generally good sense of etiquette, but partly because they've put up with so many "bodhrán owners" (as opposed to players) that they treated me like a rare find. I'm a competent player and good for having played a relatively short time (roughly 5 years) but I was viewed as a lot better than I would classify myself.
Slán,
Rich

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Marymac90
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 12:28 AM

Bones have been played in American music. I was at a workshop on bones given by an older white guy, Percy Danforth, (who's by now most likely deceased) at the Gottagetgon Festival in about 1975 or 6. (Back then it was held on the site of the Fox Hollow fest.) He demonstrated with some actual bone bones, but he sold wooden "bones" to neophytes like me. The bone ones had a brighter sound.

Appalachian music has also used spoons and limberjacks for rhythm instruments. Quebecois music is famous for incorporating the sound of dancing feet.

Marymac

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Noreen
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 05:31 AM

Come on then, Marymac- whay's a limberjack? ...Unless it's a typo for lumberjack... hmmm, now how would that work?

...receding into the distance...I'm a limberjack and I'm OK......

Noreen

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 05:38 AM

Bones have been widely used in Europe for hundreds of years, spoons for at least 100 years - both seem more associated with virtuoso or comic players than as band / dance instruments. African and Oriental drum culture is of course incredibly rich, diverse, and thrilling. Scottish pipe band drumming is believed to have derived from Swiss canton drumming, and was revitalised 30 years by a man named I thin Alex Dickson, who drew on West African drum choirs for his ideas!

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 06:36 AM

More recently didgeridoos have taken off as an instrument of choice for people who want an instrument without strings or keyboards or such. They don't seem to turn up to sessions with them so much, though the didge works quite well as a drone with Irish music.

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Jeri
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 09:37 AM

MaryMac, I was at the same workshop as you. I bought a set of bones and stained them there. Percy Danforth was incredible - could play with both hands...different things with both hands. I bought a set of high-tech bones from a guy in Delaware (although I think he was from Maryland) who had learned from Percy.

Bones began in Appalachia, I believe, and are used these days in the US, often for dance accompaniment, sometimes for songs.

Limberjack here. They're very easy to play, but there's a possibility of becoming a viruoso. I've seen people make the little guy stand on his head and play, play on hands and knees, and get the left and right sides of his body going in opposite directions.
Andy's Front Hall - Bones and limberjacks for sale.
Video of Percy Danforth from Mel Bay available here.

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 25 Sep 00 - 11:09 AM

Dave, That can be arranged! :-)

Yes there is a worrying tendency for those who can't learn an instrument to grab something they can bang on. I have known one or two pick-ups where the bodhran players outnumbered everyone else. This probably stems from the warrior origins of the Bodhran (look guys, I can bang my shield with my spear too!)

Also while etiquette says that you don't use someone elses instrument without asking this doesn't seem to apply to Bodhrans.This is v. annoying if you're leaving the drum to warm and come back to find some talentless fool pounding away on a slack skin

Having only played one for about twenty years I guess I still have a lot to learn but I have just about mastered keeping in time and "knowing when to stop"

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 12:20 AM

Bones are supposed to have been first played in ancient Egypt.
I've been to a few of those sessions where the bodhráns outnumber everybody. You always have at least two people who don't believe there should be one playing at a time. "We don't need to take turns. We can play fin together. See?" BANGBANGBANGBANG Or what about the guy who is willing to put down his drum periodically, but immediately has to pick up something else. I probably will play bones to 3 tunes over the course of a 2-3 hour session and only if I feel they'll add something. I never play bones for more than 1 tune in a set and I play them pretty quietly. Some people will spend the whole session alternating between BANGBANGBANG and CLACKCLACKCLACK. I used to bring a triangle to sessions, but quit at the request of a friend who said the ringing would linger in his ear and make it hard to play with the other melody players.

Slán,
Rich

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Noreen
Date: 26 Sep 00 - 10:54 AM

Thanx, Jeri- I've seen them used in English folk music but never heard them called limberjacks. Never heard them called anything that I can remember, apart from 'dolls on the end of a plank'! :0)

Noreen

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Sep 00 - 09:51 AM

"Were the bones ever used in American music?"

In answer I will quote a song by Stephen Foster:

The time is never dreary if the darkey never groans
The ladies never weary with the rattle of the bones

The song is called "Ring, Ring the Banjo."

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 12:55 AM

Rich (bodhrani, etc), I think it's called "subtlety," and "musicality." Always a treat no matter what your instrument. Can't tell you the number of singarounds I've been to in which, when you start a song and it's "Your" song, other people just jump right in and sing the whole damned thing with you. I love having people work subtle harmonies around what I'm doing, but sometimes, dammit, it ain't a chorale work!

But again, I think it's mostly a matter of ignorance == and sometimes sheer arrogance. But mostly people just don't know any better.

ww

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 02:16 AM

Have any of you read a short story about a young man who goes to watch a master on the bones and it winds up the master teaches him or something, but the catch at at the end, that leaves you gasping is either the master, or the kid who wants to be best (ssory i cannot remember) had his lower leg amputated in order to have the *best* bones which would resonate with himself. It was an earier little horror story. Extremely well-written in some anthology I got from the library, probably mid-1980's.I would really like to find it and read it, again.

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: M.Ted
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 03:26 AM

Just to underscore the above, the Bones were a standard instrument in the Minstrel Show, the player, "Mr. Bones", tended to deliver punch lines, I think--

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: A Wandering Minstrel
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 09:44 AM

Kat,

I have heard something like this, except in the version I heard the guy needed the perfect pipe and ends up using his own shin bone.... I think this featured in a recent copy of Heavy Metal magazine

8-#

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 00 - 01:48 PM

So the bones settled in North America all right.

Any takers for my other question - "And what about the penny whistle or the flute? Do they have a home in American folk music (apart from in Irish type sessions)?"

I don't primarily mean, are there revival folkies playing them (though that'd be interesting too), but were or are there any traditional musicians playing the whistle or flute?

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall)
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 12:55 AM

Sorry, with all this nice stuff being said about percussion for once I gotta refresh this for a little while.

Slán,
Rich

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: WyoWoman
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 03:22 PM

McGrath--I don't know of any, but my knowledge is fairly rudimentary.

Kat, that sounds exceedingly Eudora Welty-ish to me. Certainly the kind of thing she'd do, but I can't place the story. I'd love it if we could find out... Talk about the lengths to which an artist will go!

there you go, Rich, refreshed again.

You know, I have these little shakers that I love to play -- mine are in the shape of a plum and a goose-necked squash, some are egg-shaped, etc. -- but if you bring 'em out at many a folk gathering, you're looked upon askance. I heard later that I deeply damanged my reputation with a group of trad (bluegrassy trad, not celtic-y trad) people in New Mexico when I showed up with actual percussion-type playthings.

Tha' heck with them, I say. If you can't add a little ooomph were it seems appropriate, that just ain't my kind of music.

WW

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:40 PM

I never understand why bodhran players are so hard on themselves, as to how many should be playing at one time?

Is it not the same for any other instrument? You can hear all of the finer points of an individuals playing, if they are playing on their own. But when many fiddles, say, are playing together, you may lose some of those finer points but are you are not gaining something else?

Subject: RE: What happened to all those drums?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 01:00 PM

Not necessarily. It can works well, but I suspect only if they are highly disiplined. At one time every year Cambridge Folk Festival used to be enlivened by a bunch of seven Swedes with fiddles, who were pretty good. (Playing Swedish music too, which is well worth getting into.)

But normally more than two or three of any instrument together is excessive. Even when they are all in tune - at least with bodhrans you don't have to worry about that. (And I think I'd sooner have six bodhrans than one bongo drunmmer.)

Even if there's just one other guitar playing I tend to stick a capo on and play a different set of chord shapes, to avoid muddying thing up for each other. (Of course that tends to bugger it up if they are trying to follow what I'm doing, but that's really not the idea - I can generally compensate for the capo if I'm trying to follow what they are doing, because I'm used to it.)