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Music and competition?
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Subject: Music and competition? From: The Shambles Date: 30 Sep 00 - 08:14 PM Without actually hearing or making the music, the forum is largely reduced to talking about it. One of the things we seem to do is express our preferences for songs or performers and make comparisons between them. As a result of this, it sometimes it appears, from casual scanning of thread titles, that music is seen as a competitive exercise, when of course it is nothing of the sort.
For the whole joy of it is that everyone regardless of ability can enjoy the process of making music.
Musicians and their egos however, do compete. This can be very tiresome but can also lead to some wonderful music being created.
Is it possible for fine music to be created without any competition? Does the perception of having to compete musically, prevent some people from making music? |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: GUEST,JenEllen Date: 30 Sep 00 - 08:32 PM Wow, what a handful.... I initially thought this topic might be confined to modern music, but it isn't really... maybe the differences lie in the individual person's definition of competition? Musical styles don't seem to be invented, but an amalgam of styles that an individual learns and adapts to themselves. I've noticed some folks craft their musical style upon "I can do better that THAT"--hearing something and changing it to suit themselves, while others find that if it isn't played note for note, it isn't good enough. For myself, I don't find it beneficial to belittle others personal tastes. While I don't actively seek out, say, hip-hop music, there are songs that I may hear and adapt to my voice or playing. It's surely not that the first person wasn't "good enough", but that I enjoy it more if it is changed in small ways. I certainly don't take offense if someone adapts something of mine to suit themselves. But, the "process of making music" is different for each person. Some have to have active listeners to be productive, while others would lock away and create on their own. I certainly do believe that some folks would rather be silent than to make noise that others might not like. (thankfully there aren't many of those around HERE!*bg*) People make music more often than you think. Granted, it isn't Carnegie Hall, but there are enough hummers, whistlers, and automobile virtuosos to make the world interesting. ~Elle
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: GUEST,murray@mpce.mq.edu.au Date: 30 Sep 00 - 11:43 PM In a way I do think that competetiveness does prevent some people from making music. Even more is the distinction between "performing" and "making music". A lot of people think they are the same thing and that they have to be able to get on stage and play flawlessly before an audience rather than just amongst family and friends. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: GUEST,furry Date: 01 Oct 00 - 01:42 AM Shambles, If this has anything to do with the thread I started, I assure you, it was miss understood. My complaint was that a huge and grand tradition was being over shadowed, shallowed, and cheapened by praise for the work of one man over and over and over......... |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Oct 00 - 04:06 AM No your point was well made. It did however stir the old brain to the bigger picture of competition in music generally. This was the thread referred to Bashing Robert Johnson. |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 01 Oct 00 - 04:15 AM I don't think it can. On a personal note, I used to hang around with a lot of shanty singers. They were, with one exception, blokes, and the only other woman was a lady tenor. When I sang along, either with the tune, or with the other lady, I couldn't hear myself over the volume they created. Being a pushy sort of person who likes people to know she's there, I started to work out ways I could compete with this noise. The answer came when I started doing descants or the harmonies an octave up. None of the blokes could reach me up there, and it added a lighter sound to some of the heavier choruses. Tell you what, it scares the bejasus out of some blokes when you stand beside them or behind them and then let rip an octave above them!! On a general note - there has to be competition. If everyone just said, mmm that's a nice song, I can't do anything better, then we might not have had Mozart or Salieri competing for royal favour, we wouldn't have pop charts and we would have a lot of ships still stuck in the harbour!! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Oct 00 - 05:59 AM I'm not sure that "there has to be competition". There always WILL be competition as human beings are competitive, some more than others.
There are areas of human endeavour where competition is needed but I do not think that music is one of them. I for one could certainly live withour 'pop' charts. Do they serve any useful purpose? |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Pinetop Slim Date: 01 Oct 00 - 06:29 AM Jams strike me as the closest thing to a perfect balance of competition and cooperation. Two guitarists, e.g., may well be trying to outdo each other while swapping licks, but they're doing it within a cooperative framework where everyone is playing the same musical theme at the same speed. The same applies to song circles when singers bring in their harmonies. Some of us stay away from ensemble music not for fear of competition, but fear of screwing up the cooperation by going off beat, off key or just plain off ... And so what if somebody's attitude is "my lick (my harmony) is better than yours" if the effort makes the total presentation better? |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Little Neophyte Date: 01 Oct 00 - 06:53 AM In regards to Liz' comment 'there has to be competition. If everyone just said, mmm that's a nice song, I can't do anything better, then we might not have had Mozart' I am not sure if Mozart was into competing. I think Mozart was just 'doing his thing'. As for the Bashing Robert Johnson thread. I think it was the title of this thread that I found disturbing. After reading that thread I could appreciate the fact that the true founders of the blues had been overlooked. What I had a hard time understand was why Robert Johnson needed to be bashed? I learned more from the names people suggested I should listen to if I wanted to understand the foundation of blues, rather than the discussion that put down Robert Johnson for becoming so successful. Competition is a state of the mind. Not everyone feels competitive. Well at least I do not feel competitive. If I get anywhere with my music it is because like Mozart, I was just 'doing my thing'. As for jam sessions being competitive, I bet there are great players hidden within those sessions that are so humble you have no idea how good they really are because it is more important to them to be participating in the group and helping the others bring out the best of their music. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: John Hardly Date: 01 Oct 00 - 08:11 AM Hey, Thanks for starting this thread--I wanted to do the same to see what you all thought on the topic (but I can't create a thread for some reason). I remember reading that Pat Donohue almost didn't enter Winfield early on because he didn't want music misunderstood as a competition. John |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 01 Oct 00 - 08:36 AM Pinetop, I think you're on to something. In many sports, the competetive edge drives the individual to do better than the rest, sometimes at all costs. In a performing group of musicians, the individuals strive to join with the group to make the best music they possibly can. Sometimes one or another musician will take the melody and then the urge towards "personal best" kicks in even stronger, but the goal is always for the music, not for the personal god medal. Ideally, at least. |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 01 Oct 00 - 05:08 PM I'd love to agree, that the human competes In music, and sports and business; repletes However, my friend, cooperation completes What dividing and conquering deletes
I have often wondered why the world of music is filled with the ego garbage that 'competitive-pecking-order-orientation'd' individuals project. You'd tell me that the best things in life are created by competing..., and I say BUNK! |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Oct 00 - 05:41 PM The best spotlight is the sun.
In a sense the person we're really competing with is ourselves, trying to do better than we have before. Other people might give use something to measure ourselves against and keep us company, but if it's just about beating other people it's a silly game.
And "competing against ourselves" is metaphor anyway. Other metaphors like "exploring new territory" or "breaking new ground" are probably more helpful.
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Oct 00 - 06:02 PM We do seem to love contests, competitions and polls though. I am thinking of those absurd classical music contests, usually for fine young musicians, where they end up judging a violin player agaist a pecussionist.... |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Oct 00 - 07:46 PM end up judging a violin player against a pecussionist....
Sounds like the Mudcat in a bodhran bashing thread. Or those dog shows where they have a class for "dog the judges would like to take home with them. |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: dick greenhaus Date: 01 Oct 00 - 07:49 PM And then there are the Fiddle contests, and banjo contests and the flood of competitions in Ireland for titles like "All-Ireland Bodrhan Champion of 1998". Pshaw. |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Oct 00 - 08:09 PM But at least the contests in the Fleadh Ceoil and so forth are like against like. The "Young Musician of the Year" stuff is like a version of the Olympics in which the swimmers and the runners and the weight-lifters were being jusdged against teach other.
I agree though that "pshaw" is a fair comment on those kind of competitions. (You just end up with Michael Flattleys...) |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Ely Date: 01 Oct 00 - 08:58 PM I've tried not to compare the musicians I listen to. If I didn't like them, I wouldn't have their music. I don't expect Gillian Welch to be Norman Blake to be Buddy Holly to be Etta Baker. They're all different and I like them all the more for doing it their way. Besides, I don't think "better" is always better. I played guitar for a square-dance band and we sometimes played with other guitarists who were far better on the instrument than I was, but they weren't better in a band because they had to "out-lick" everybody and get noticed. I'm a lousy guitarist on my own but I'm reliable and unobtrusive backup. |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 01 Oct 00 - 11:00 PM Some good things being said here. I don't know how well I like the idea of competitions. If I were making my living doing this I might think differently butI'm not sure overall how beneficiall they are. A title can open some doors for a young musician that's trying to get a start but it can inevitably do harm if a player in question tries to play a lot of hey-check-this-out licks without any substance behind it. And it can lead to the problem of being "good enough" and no one has ever strode to make progress once they were "good enough". I know the higher I'm thinking of my playing at any given moment, the less teachable I am. Also, as McGrath pointed out with the Michael Flatley comment, there is a tendency for champions to want to reinvent the wheel. Look at Eileen Ivers. She started out as a fine traditional fiddler and now she's practically techno. And Shambles, I have to agree. It is unfair to a fiddler to expect him or her to compete with a percussionist. :-) LOL Slán agat, Rich |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:03 AM With all due respects, My Ivers CD seems quite egocentric, and it is hard for me to find the substance in it.... The flash is not enough by itself...IMHO. |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: The Shambles Date: 02 Oct 00 - 01:51 AM In the particular contest I was thinking about, the pecussionist won! No surprise eh? *smiles* |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Ely Date: 02 Oct 00 - 02:18 AM I saw a certain well-known musician in concert a few years ago--someone whose earlier work I have enjoyed tremendously on recording--and he was so bad I wanted to leave. He beat his poor hammered dulcimer almost to death, butchered a set of O'Carolan tunes, sang a lot of cutesy stuff to appeal to his newer, trendier audience. My mother was so jealous to hear that I was going to see him and I had to call her and tell her he was awful. He was technically right-on but there was no music in it. His ego could have filled a gymnasium. Incidentally, this is why I have no desire to go back to the Texas lap dulcimer championship, despite encouragement from friends. Glen Rose is a wonderful exhibition of talent, but the style of playing required to do well in the competition grates on my ears. |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 02 Oct 00 - 12:23 PM It is uncanny how much/often people now-a-days associate the ego with professionalism. ..."with an attitude" is a positive thing, and why?, because it's a crutch for us to use when all else fails, IMHO. When I have played slow careful songs and captivated folks with them, often it seems as though they don't know why they have been moved,... are confused... but smiling ;-) The competitions disturb the contestants, ruin their; comraderie, their open comments,and their easy-going relationship with other musicians. And thrill/impression value becomes all important. I have had to take time off from playing, because the ridiculous cloud of judgement that hung over certain people, got in my eyes and burned like coal smoke. Parents of 'contestants' are the worst. Nasty when people hope you make a mistake... The bottom line for me now, is am I reaching people? The co-mingling of souls and hightened sense of psychic 'safeness' that occurs when we are listening to an engaging story, hearing a hypnotic song, or singing together, is worth more than all the "competitions" rolled into one. In My Most Humble Opinion! |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:47 PM Thomas, On a visit to Chicago this year I had to say the one of the nicest things was the lack of attitude. I played with some mighty players that had weight to throw around BUT DIDN'T! There is a big difference between confidence and cockiness. If Martin Hayes can play likh Maritn Hayes and still be humble, where does anybody in traditional music get off playing the prima donna? Rich |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Mbo Date: 02 Oct 00 - 06:50 PM "I hate the way that even though you know you're wrong you say you're right You think everything you've done's fantastic Your music shite keeps me up all night." |
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Subject: RE: Music and competition? From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:19 PM Sorry Mbo, I was just thinking out loud... ;>) |
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