Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period

Subject: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 04:28 PM

I am looking for music and lyrics for songs from the time of the French and Indian War. More specifically, I am looking for songs that would have been sung by the members of the 42nd Highland Regiment (aka the Black Watch). I expect they would mostly have been shanties and work songs, but expect a number of Scottish songs would have been mixed in (though with the proscription against anything Scottish, maybe not).

I apologize in advance if I am mis-using this forum, but am impressed enough with what I have read so far to be very hopeful of obtaining some invaluable assistance.

Terry Wessling aka Pvt Michael Lindsay, 42nd Regiment of Foote, circa 1758

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 05:39 PM

That's not misusing the Mudcat, it's the kind of question that brings us to life.

I can't help,but I'm posting this to refresh it and make it more likely the people who can answer this see it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 07:10 PM

By Lake Erie's Banks we stand,
Sword and bay'net in our hands,
To drive the French without delay
Over the hills and far away.

Whoe'er is young, whoe'er is free
Will come and go along with me
To drive the French without delay
Over the hills and far away.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 22-Aug-02.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 08:47 PM

You ought to be safe enough with Scottish material from the period; "proscription" is in part a myth based on a misunderstanding of what actually happened in the aftermath of the Jacobite Rebellions.  In any case, such bans as there were, were limited in scope: obviously Jacobite material would be out, but pretty well anything else, (in English) would be alright -including the Highland Pipes, since, despite what a lot of people believe, they were never banned.  I can't really speak for work-songs, but I'd be surprised if the Black Watch had much to do with shanties at any time; marches might be nearer the mark.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 08:28 AM

Terry,

Try "Hot Stuff",- just substitute "42nd Regiment" for "47th Regiment" (I've heard it sung that way enough times).
"Over the Hills and Far Away" (it does date from the time of Queen Anne)
"How Stands the Glass Around?"
How about "Farewell to Lochaber" and "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" are they of the right period? I would recommend the books(and/or records) "Songs and Music of the Redcoats" by (IIRC)Lewis Windstock and "The Wandering Soldier" by Roy Palmer. Both these books are nearly 20 years old, but if your local library can get hold of a copy, they should be worth a look.

Regards

Walrus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 08:57 AM

Dick, intersting, but what is the rest of the song and how do I find the music?

Malcolm, at the risk of deviating from the topic (and I do admit we are a daft bunch of Yanks with Scottish heritage), our research would indicate otherwise. Please reply to me off-list if you wish to discuss this further.

Walrus, thank you very much. I am assuming that I can fine the information on the first 5 songs on this list?

Terry (Lindsay, whatever)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 12:03 PM

Lindsay- The tune is the ever-popular "Over the Hills and Far Away" (it's in the DT in several incarnations. ) I don't know anything about the song, except that I heard Burl Ives sing it as in introduction to some other song, several hundreds of years ago.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 12:26 PM

Terry,

"Hot Stuff", "Over the Hills and Far Away" (4 versions, including one from the Beggers; Opera - 1703),"How Stands the Glass Around?" and "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" are all in the DigiTrad (I've just checked - although the book "Songs and Music..."gives a longer version of "Hot Stuff) "Farewell to Lochaber" appears on the "Songs and Music..." record (along with all the rest except "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants" ), but the book will give you such little gems as "The British Bayoneteers" - a centre company parody/version of "British Grenadiers". I can't be definite about dates as I was always more interested in the Napoleonic period over the Seven Years War. If I get a chance, I try and fing some bits when I get home.

Regards

Walrus.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 02:55 PM

Walrus,

Thanks! I have called our local library and determined that many of the local colleges have copies of "Songs and Music of the Redcoats". They have put in a request to loan one to me.

I'll check out DigiTrad tonight (no sound at work) for the other songs you mentioned. I am drooling over "Twa Recruitin' Sergeants".

BTW, our regiment is looking to branch in Rev and Napoleonic in the near future. I may be contacting you again.

Lindsay

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Timehiker
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:40 AM

Lindsay,
From "The Highlanders at Waterloo 1815" by Neil Morrison, a sketchbook affair done for the Napoleonic Association in Europe:
"The Flow'rs o' the Forest" by Miss Jane Elliot, published in 1755. "Annie Laurie" by Lady John Scott, from an earlier song written around 1700. "Maggie Lauder" by Francis Semple, circa 1642, set to an air popular in 1730. "Muirland Willie" before 1724. It also has "Lochaber No More" by Allen Ramsey, set to a tune from "Orpheus Caledonius", 1725. I don't know if this is the same as "Farewell to Lochaber" or not.I was told this Lochaber song was from the Napoleonic wars, but you may be able to research Allen Ramsey and see when he was living.
You also don't have to limit yourself to Scottish songs. The men of the 42nd likely heard other songs in their travels and sang what they liked. I wouldn't discard any good English drinking song from the period. And, given your Nom de guerre(spelling?), you may like "Leezie Lindsay" by Burns.
I take it you are a reenactor? If so, where do you operate? I reenact the French and Indian war with Preston's Augusta County (Virginia) Rangers, and the Revolution with the VII Virginia regiment.

Take care
Timehiker

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:10 AM

Timehiker, thanks for the input. Given that fact that we would have traveled by ship (it takes to long to walk across the Atlantic), I think we would have picked up some shanties as well.

Our unit is based in the Twin Cities of Minneapolis and St Paul, Minnesota. We can field about 20 soldiers if schedules work out okay. Generally 8 to 10 make any given event. For most events, with the exception of a corporal, we are all privates. Ocassionally we have a leftenant to act as an interpreter for the public. Please feel free to visit our website http://www.highlandregiment.org to view some pictures. If you wish to communicate outside of this forum, I can be reached at [e-mail].

Lindsay

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:52 AM

I will be out of town from about 4PM today, until Monday morning 23 October. Our Highland Regiment re-enactors will be in attendance at the Big Muddy Rendezvous in Winona, MN. I will be unable to reply to any messages until that time. Thank you again to everyone who has contributed to my quest for knowledge.

Aefauldlie, Pvt Michael Lindsay, 42nd Regiment of Foote (aka Terry Wessling)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 11:05 AM

Shanties were never sung (as work songs anyway) on Royal Navy ships, to the best of my knowledge. (That's what Stan Hugill said anyway.) I think they were felt to encourage the wrong kinds of attitudes, and be bad for discipline.

Of course you might get troops carried on a non-navy vessel, I suppose. But I suspect they'd be operating under navy rules for the voyage...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 11:42 AM

Damn, you mean I wasted all that time learning Barret's Privateers (yeah, I know it's after my time period :o).

BTW, who is Stan Hugill?

I guess we'll have to be content with the other songs that I have been steered to.

Thanks for the input.

Lindsay

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: GeorgeH
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 11:52 AM

Yup, McGrath hits the nail on the head, as usual.

Stan Hugil was (I think he's no longer with us) the last great chronicler of songs of the sea . . he did actually work under sail.

As McGrath says, shanties were not used as worksongs in the RN - while there are reports of their being sung "off duty" (and scant evidence for the claims of their being banned) the limited info. I've seen on this suggests that the troops being carried weren't able to with the RN men.

G.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:34 PM

Here's a link to stuff about his main book and here is a picture of him (it's from the site of Stan Hugill Yachting Club Society in Krakow, which is not just Polish, but well inland).

There are some good French army songs too - I'd imagine that armies used to pinch each others songs then as well. En passant par Lorraine, Malbrouk s'en va-t-en guerre:

Malbrouk s'en va-t-en guerre,
Mironton, mironton, mirontaine;
Malbrouk s'en va-t-en guerre.
Nul sait quand reviendra.
Il reviendra z'a pâques-
Mironton, mironton, mirontaine ...
Ou à la Trinité.

Which is to the tune of "for he's a jolly good fellow."

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:55 PM

Oddly enough, I ordered this book last Friday. Even though the songs might not be applicable for Regimental use, I'm sure my pirate friends and I will enjoy them.

Lindsay, sometimes scourge of waves (maybe I just have scurvy).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 06:46 PM

Try lime juice

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:33 PM

McGrath has said what I was going to say about shanties (actually I did say it: I posted a message yesterday, but it didn't "take", for some reason, though it's still there as an empty entry on my list); so far as the Pipes go, the most recent authority -to the best of my knowledge- is John G. Gibson, Traditional Gaelic Bagpiping, 1745 - 1945, (McGill-Queen's University Press/ National Museums of Scotland, 1998): I've quoted a relevant passage on an earlier thread, here:  Bagpipes in America

If you have more recent information that contradicts Gibson's findings, please do let me know.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: Lindsay
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 09:31 AM

McGrath, wouldn't that make me a limey? Oh yeah, I guess I am. Anyway, I've been looking at Art's book. I'm thinking some of the songs I've thought we shanties might not be. I'm talking about "Barret's Privateers" and "Rolling to Maui". They were not in the book. Comments?

Lindsay

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Music from the F&I time period
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 15 Jun 05 - 06:37 AM

Lost it in the recent troubles, but "Barret's Privateers" is a Stan Rogers song and I believe Maui wasn't even discovered yet. Someone else pointed out that they aren't shanties anyway.
Now does anyone know if "Whisky You're the Divil" is from around this time, the Napoleonic Wars, or much later?