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BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important
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Subject: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Jim Dixon Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:08 PM Imagine this: You are in your favorite drug store, newsagent's, or bookshop. Strolling past a rack of magazines, you catch sight of the words "Now I Know Why" on a cover, indicating that the magazine contains an article by that name. Would you pick up that magazine? How about "Ominous Song"? Or "It Finally Happened!" Or "You Guys Need to See This!" Is there anything about those titles that makes you think you might enjoy reading it? If so, you've got far more time on your hands than I do. Is it just me, or have we had a rash of idiotic thread titles lately? I can understand when beginners start a thread with "Please Help" - they'll learn, if they stick with us. But seasoned Mudcatters should know better already. Am I the only one who is annoyed by this? (I know this topic has been discussed before, for example, here and here.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: MMario Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:10 PM Jim - you looked at the covers of magazines lately? That's basically the kind of stuff you see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: mousethief Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:19 PM Which is why I don't read a lot of magazines.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: rabbitrunning Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:25 PM Considering how many threads I don't read (for lack of time, mostly) it's kind of a relief to have idiotic thread titles. Makes the selection easier. [grin] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Jim Dixon Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:26 PM Mmario: Yes I have, and magazines annoy me too. But if I told you how much, I'd be indulging in too much thread creep already. My intent here is to keep focused on Mudcat. The point is, having been disappointed a number of times, you eventually quit looking. The saving grace of Mudcat is that threads that SEEM to be about music, usually ARE about music, at least for the first few posts. More and more, I find myself ignoring everything else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Jeri Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:38 PM I think the "they'll have to read this one to figure out what it's about" approach has the opposite effect. I skip a lot of threads with ambiguous titles. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Matt_R Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:43 PM How do you spell anal-retentive? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: mousethief Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:44 PM Without-the-hyphen.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: CarolC Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:47 PM It is my opinion (for what it's worth), that most (not necessarily all) first time "guest" posters who do not include their e-mail address in thier post, the large majority of anonymous posters, and several "member identities" who have been starting the kinds of threads that you describe, are actually just one person who has been a member of the Mudcat for some time. (I would obviously not put "It finally happened" in this category. I don't remember the "You guys need to see this" thread, so I can't comment on that one.) I have reason to believe that I know the identity of this person. It is also my opinion that this person is doing great harm to the Mudcat with this practice. I think this person's behavior is compulsive and that the individual in question does not have any control over it. However, I do wish that he/she would get some help for his/her problem and stop using the Mudcat in this way. I could be wrong, but this is what I think. Carol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: katlaughing Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:01 PM You may be right, Carol, some of them have that look to them. Jim, you are not alone in feeling this way. It's been bugging me a lot, too. Lot of threads I don't even open these days. Thanks, kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: catspaw49 Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:09 PM Aw damn....I thought this was going to be about the info on Coats&Clarks labels.....like"Cinnamon Blush-#963 BT.040473739,Lot23A56hg738." Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: wysiwyg Date: 17 Oct 00 - 07:26 PM I have responded to Jim in a PM. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: GUEST,Skipjack Date: 17 Oct 00 - 07:35 PM I sent Max a PM after late night discussions at Llanstock, basically asking if there's any way of putting the name of the thread owner on the front page with the title. This is suggested on the basis that one likes the writings of, say Peter T or Morty, but would not choose to open a thread started by someone like that chap who's always on about Orange stuff. It would be a more effective censoring tool for flame control. This would include guest names, too, where most of the crap originates (and me a guest, too!) Skipjack |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: IvanB Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:24 PM Lately, I've been reading few of the threads and posting to even fewer, because the titles just don't pull me in. On the other hand, I'm constantly amazed at the inane threads that seem to take on a life of their own. This happens because WE choose to post to them (even if only to decry their inanity), thus extending their lives. Let them die a quick and natural death, folks. Then, at least, they won't be bothersome for all that long. And frankly, whatever number of people are involved in starting these threads, if they're consistently ignored the initiators will probably lose interest. But it will take an effort on all our parts, and I'm not sure that's about to happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:40 PM Ivan, Spaw and I have been having that conversation about the "This thread sucks, let's keep it going" phenomenon. Truth be told, it takes a minute sometimes to open a thread, so I usually go for the intriguing titles first. If I open a thread and it turns out to be something I'm really not interested in, I can often tell within the first couple posts. If it gets interesting later, someone will eventually mention it in another thread. We've been on the verge of war lately over "How dare you not put a BS prefix on this thread" or whatever. Rich |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:23 AM This is long but please read it, it has a real idea in it to propose!!!! I suppose this is going to sound incredibly snotty, and honest, I don't mean it to, but after I calmed down (it took a long while this time and hurt like a son-of-a-bitch), I began to think about the issue raised here. And here is the first snotty-sounding question I came up with: Is it more important to treat people decently, or to be right? Guess what! I often am not treated decently! So what is so right about the opinion of someone who is being out and out rude to me, and why am I supposed to honor it? Well because my values say so, is why, but it is a question, admit it. If someone is technically right about something, but goes about making their point hurtfully, is that really right? They are the ones who are supposed to be in charge?? Whew. I'm glad they aren't! I'm glad Max is! (Max, if I go too far, do please tell me!!!!) Second snotty-sounding question. OK. About people who want music threads AND get really upset about other kinds of threads. A lot of times, in response to this concern, someone has said, well, go ahead and start a music thread then! OK. My question: Is it possible that it is not a thread ASKING for knowledge that the person would start, but what they are hoping for is one where someone else wants THEM to give the answer? In other words, is the solution of "go open a music thread" just not working because these people would have to title it, "Please ask me a question I know the answer to, and here is my area of expertise"? Is that what it boils down to? That we have a lot of folks here who are dying to transmit vast stores of knowledge, but the asking has dwindled? And they aren't getting to share what they know and this feels awful? (Please. Believe it or not, I am really trying to get it. Do those of you who assume I disagree with you try at all to get what I say or does it go right past you in a haze of your own ill feeling? Am I all alone over here on my side of the question trying to understand your viewpoint? Do you see there is a view from over here too?) OK. Here is why this second one is a GOOD question. If that really is the problem, we need to add a forum feature to harness it better, that's all! Call it the Mudcat Experts department or whatever... a listing of some of the areas of expertise you-all have!!! Here is an example. I DEEPLY want to know some stuff about Eriskay Love Lilt and My Love is Like a Red Red Rose. I got them on a Seamus Kenndy CD, so I asked Seamus, but it was because of an older recording on hammer dulcimer that I had fallen in love with first. The two versions were so different. I will start a thread on it, having exhausted what Seamus could tell me, and I did contact the other artist and I have her e-mailed thoughts to share as I ask more questions in a thread. BUT-- if we had an expertise listing, what a benefit! To PM the expert listed, "Hey, I have a question, can you please help me over in this thread [link provided]?? We had a thread like that actually (I STARTED IT) where I asked about the process of researching songs and several respondees said, hey, go PM so-and-so and get them in on this thread, they know a lot about what you have raised and I bet they would love to know this is being discussed. IT WAS A GREAT THREAD partly because I did that. They DID love it. SO what do you think about that??? ~Susan
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: jeffp Date: 18 Oct 00 - 09:53 AM Susan - you raise an interesting point, especially with your second question. I don't think the question is snotty at all. In fact you may have hit the nail right on the head with respect to a number of people here. My area of knowledge useful to most Mudcatters is quite narrow compared to many others here. Even so, I am overjoyed when somebody asks a question that I can answer. When you have been receiving more than giving, it's nice to be able to balance the books sometime. However, I suspect a lot of the people with knowledge are shy about blowing their own horns, so it might be difficult to assemble such a list. We might want to have nominations from other Catters, who usually have a pretty good idea of who knows what. jeffp |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:00 AM jeffp, you are very smart. Your idea makes question one and question two resolve nicely. Thanks for reading all of it. I was expecting a flame when I opened this thread, and how lovely that it was you, instead. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: GUEST,Phantom Lurker Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:04 AM CarolC - Why do you think would anyone bother to post to Mudcat with as many different identities as you claim? What harm is the person doing? If you respond, be specific about damage done. Don't simpy repeat vague "the sky is falling" claims. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: KingBrilliant Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:24 AM I don't mind the bullshit threads, if I'm not in the mood I don't look. But one thing struck me the other day. There seem to be a lot of threads about situations people are having in their lives involving people outside of the mudcat family. I am concerned that we should remember that we are broadcasting here (its not a cozy chat with a limited and private group). Some of the things I read about would mortify me if I were the person being mentioned. Publicising other people's problems also seems pretty unhelpful and potentially damaging. I won't give specifics because that would start an argument that I don't want to have. I just needed to get it off my chest & this seemed a reasonably appropriate thread, so I feel lots better now, cheers. Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: A Wandering Minstrel Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:28 AM I have to go along with Rich and Rabbitrunning. it's the intriguing titles suck you in. For myself I read the Lyrics Req threads first, then threads I've posted to, to see if there were any replies and then the serendipitous threads with the "What the..." titles. What might be nice (and I know some sites do it) is to flag the threads you have posted to so you can keep up with a dialogue Praise and Jeffps idea has merits but I would be afraid that this would lead to a sort of mudcat expertise police. I would not presume to know what another mudcatter might or might not be an authority on and it would tend to frighten away newcomers. You can never tell.. I thought the "penguin contents" thread was going to be a searing exposee of McVities fillings policy and it turned out to be all about something entirely different :D |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Jeri Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:44 AM Praise, I also think you're right in that a lot of the knowledgable people don't start threads because they don't need answers. They wait for someone to ask a question, and the questions about folk music are dwindling. I don't see anything wrong with NOT waiting for a question to start a discussion, as in "Let me relate an anecdote about this song/musician/place." It's just that the people with the information wait for others to start things. It's become less a place to ask and answer questions and just discuss folk music. I'm not placing a value judgement on that last bit - I think Mudcat has to try on a few different styles and will always change. I do miss the music discussions, though. It's my theory that a lot of the knowledgable people have left or nearly left. There isn't as much call for actual information, and most of the discussions are based on opinion. One reason we'd have to PM them to tell them about a thread is they just don't read the threads as much as they used to. And sometimes the music threads are titled to look like non-music ones, sometimes the non-music ones look like music discussions. Could be frustrating. I could just be being cynical here - it's been known to happen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:57 AM Praise's suggestion that people lamenting the lack of music threads might be because they have answers rather than the questions makes sense. Mind you, if you've got some area of interest expertise you don't have to wait for a question to make it available. There's provision in the Mudcat for articles; and a thread doesn't need to start with a question, it can start with someone expressing an opinion, for example.
I prefer thread titles that are straighforward, rather than ones that set out to be "intriguing", which doesn't normally work. But the great thing about threads is that soemthing that starts out as facetious,or offensive,or silly can turn into something interesting. It's all doiwn to us.
It helps sometimes to draw people's attention to threads where they might have useful information to give, by sending them PMs, or by sticking a link in a post where some other discussion was starting to become relevant.
That seems a better way of tapping into expertise than any formal arrangement. Imagine the potential ructions, with people resenting that they weren't officially accepted as experts, or that someone else was. Or you'd have modest people feeling reluctant to chip in with info they had, because they'd feel they weren't entitled to. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Little Neophyte Date: 18 Oct 00 - 12:29 PM I tend to agree with Jeri. There has been a shift in the Mudcat forum but it is the kind of place where things are always changing. Like the saying goes about the weather....'if you don't like the weather, be patient, it will change'. I do miss the hard core musicians. If they are not reading or posting as much, from my experience, they tend to not come back. Yet I had excellent responses to the most recent music thread I started even though I had created a luring title. I felt grateful for the wonderful answers I received. I would not want to see Mudcatters on expertise lists. If I have expertise in something I will offer my knowledge when asked or I will choose to offer it when I feel a need to make what I have learned known. I do not have a need to find people willing to listen to what I know. Except for my sister. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: CarolC Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:03 PM Phantom Lurker, I suspect that you are trying to draw me into an argument. But I also think your question deserves an answer. I can't speak for you. I don't know exactly why you are doing this. I can speculate, however. I think maybe you don't even know, yourself, why you do this. I suspect that you just feel compelled to do it. It is my opinion, that you just can't not do it. I think there are professionals who can help you figure out what the reasons are for this behavior, and help you find better and less destructive ways of dealing with whatever it is that you've got going on. As far as what damage is being done is concerned, look at this thread. Several people have mentioned the fact that they don't feel inclined to spend the time opening threads anymore because such a large number of them are just your attempt to jerk their chain. As for myself, I have become very mistrustful of people who post as guest, now. And you know from some of our previous interactions, that I used to be very welcoming of people who post as guest. I have become that way because I don't like the way it makes me feel when I know that my chain is being jerked. You are trivializing the Mudcat. People are becoming cynical about the direction in which the Mudcat is headed. Some of that may be snob factor, but I think that most of it is just the fact that it takes up a lot of someone's time to open a thread and read the posts to it. When a thread exists simply for the purpose of jerking peoples' chains, people feel that their time has been wasted. They feel that they wish they had opened only threads that were sincere. But it's frequently not possible to tell which ones are which until after the time has been invested in getting into the thread and seeing what it's about. And there are a lot of good hearted people here who take many of your threads and posts at face value without questioning your motives. You start a thread sounding sincere, and they respond. Then, you post to it under a second and maybe even a third Guest name, and you get an argument stirred up. This creates animosity between people who would otherwise have good will toward each other. You may say, "Well, if that's how they are, then they deserve it." Phantom Lurker, I think you know very well yourself, that each of us has within us the ability to act negatively. When you deliberately try to bring out these qualities in people and you do it in a forum like this one that is essentially a permanent record, you pollute it. And you create an environment in which people feel less inclined to trust one another. I, personally, think that behavior like this doesn't happen unless the person who is engaging it is experiencing some kind of profound discomfort. I'm asking you to get some help for this. I don't think I'm the only one who knows who you are. I'm pretty sure there are others. So you're not just hurting us. You're hurting you're real identity, as well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: wysiwyg Date: 18 Oct 00 - 09:34 PM For the record, I have no personal investment in the idea I advanced, it was more a way of fleshing out in my own mind the dynamic I thought I might be seeing, and the feedback has been generally affirming of that view. Of this thread, I have most enjoyed the PMs that resulted from it. Jim Dixon and I seem to be off to an excellent and thoughtful discussion. I find it kind of interesting that the more fruitful discussion occurred there instead of in the open. More and more I feel like I am writing here at the Mudcat to specific people, not into a vast void, and that is an odd shift for me personally. I dunno what it means. CarolC, I don't really know who you are addressing but you are making so much sense out of what you obviously perceive that it sounds like a lot of truth to me. I'd love to get to know you sometime, and I note we have been passing each other in the hall here quite a bit. I like how you wrote ewhat you see, is what I am trying to say. I see real thought evolving in this thread. It's nice to see. ~Susan |
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Subject: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:16 PM I love the music threads, and I learn a lot from them. There still are a lot of fascinating discussions going on here, enough to satisfy any folk musician willing to look. I don't often start threads, however. I think it's usually harder to come up with an intelligent question, than it is to come up with an intelligent answer. Besides, if I have a question about something, I usually search for an existing thread on it, and then add my question to that thread. The music threads here that have been going on for years are the ones that really fascinate me. I generally stay out of the other threads unless they really sound intriguing. I admit that there is a lot of good that goes on in the "BS" threads, but I just don't have time for it. I do get annoyed at flamebait threads, and at the Mudcatters who respond to them instead of letting them die. I also get annoyed at "copycat" threads - when one person starts a thread that gets a good response, ten others start a similar thread - and those copycat threads can get pretty insipid. Maybe I'm wrong. I was going to question the "what's your favorite" genre of threads, and I put "favorite" in the filter and set the clock back three years - lots of interesting threads came up, along with just a few duds. Then I put "favourite" in the box, and the list was about the same mix - with surprisingly few duds. I think Jim Dixon makes a good point - he usually does. The thread title and the first message can make or break a thread, whether it's a music thread or a "BS" thread. Threads are what make or break Mudcat, so I think we should be careful how we shape them. The thread titles are the first thing people see when they come to the Forum - if the threads don't sound interesting, they won't stick around long. So, yeah, I think it's a good idea to use care and intelligence when we start threads. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Little Neophyte Date: 19 Oct 00 - 11:11 AM I agree with Joe. I love the music threads and I do learn a lot from them and other discussion threads too. I also enjoy started music threads. Maybe I should reconsider my thread titles.........'For A Musical Good Time, Play The Banjo'. Is that a better title? I was not in the best of moods when I posted earlier. I was feeling frustrated and discouraged by some of the BS threads. Those feelings come and go periodically. I guess it is best not to jump to conclusions & post at those times. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: GUEST,Phantom Lurker Date: 19 Oct 00 - 11:52 AM Thanks for answering my questions. I agree that it is not a good thing to try to stir up arguments and create situations in which people are encouraged to exhibit negative qualities. That is why I do not do it. You are unhappy with Mudcat and "Phantom Lurker" has become a focus for that unhappiness. I am sorry that Mudcat is no longer exactly what you wish it to be, but it is not my fault. You really don't know who I am. Honest. It is literally impossible for you to know who I am. The patterns you think you see are not there. The only interactions I have had with "CarolC" are as "Phantom Lurker." I don't post nearly as much as you think I do. Max can eliminate "Guest" postings at any time. He will probably do so if he ever decides that allowing "Guest" postings is producing more harm than benefit. This is a great forum. I love it. If Max changes the rules I'll not leave in a fit of pique. I'll take a cab. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 00 - 11:57 AM "Then I put "favourite" in the box, and the list was about the same mix - with surprisingly few duds." A pat on the back for thosds se of us on the Mudcat who aren't from America!
Actually, I think it is just that there aren't so many of us. And the pain-in-the-arses (or -asses) are a pretty small proportion of Mudcatters anyway, so even if the same proportion of us over here fall into that category (which I imagine is the case), that wouldn't add up to many.
Joe writes "I don't often start threads, however. I think it's usually harder to come up with an intelligent question, than it is to come up with an intelligent answer." But I don't think there's any need to think of asking a question as the only reason to start a thread. That isn't how all conversations start in the face-to-face world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: campfire Date: 19 Oct 00 - 05:25 PM Maybe not all, but don't many, McGrath? If you're in a room full of people, don't conversations start out with questions? "Come here often?" (*bg*) or "How do you know the host?" "What do you do for a living?" One doesn't walk in and say "My favorite song is Fields of Athenry - please comment as you see fit". I agree with Praise and Joe and whoever else up there stated that without something to ASK, it's harder to start a thread. Not impossible, I agree, but more difficult. Maybe I'm wrong (often!) but it seems more polite to say "What's your favorite______" than to state my own preferences and hope that someone adds something (I think that was called Killing the Thread). So I just learned how to play a song on the guitar. Big deal, I probably would not start a thread about it. It's the song I can't figure out and need help with that would prompt me to start a thread, no? campfire |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: CarolC Date: 19 Oct 00 - 05:36 PM Phantom Lurker, Nice try, but it didn't work. Carol |
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 00 - 08:11 PM "You won't believe what just happened to me..."
"I've just written a new song I'd like you to hear..."
"The weatherman says there won't be a hurrucane tonight, but you can't believe those fellas..."
"I've been reading a book that says that the world is flat after all..."
"You look as if you could use a drink..."
"I've just won the lottery..."
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Subject: RE: BS: Why Thread Titles Are Important From: Jolly Date: 20 Oct 00 - 01:38 AM Point taken, McGrath. I stand corrected. campfire, too lazy to change cookies for one post |