Songbooks: YOUR Favorite Hymn Books

Subject: YOUR Favorite Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM

This is a companion thread to the YOUR Favorite Hymns threads.

What are your favorite hymn books ... both in the sense of hymnals per se (collections of hymns) and in the sense of books about hymns, hymnody and hymnology?

If you were to be stranded on a desert island for a year and could have one but only one hymnal and no electricity (this eliminates using the 'Net to reach The Cyber Hymnal), what one hymnal would you take?

Off the top of my head I would say Chalice Hymnal (Disciples of Christ, 1995). Why? Because it's so eclectic.

Read any good books on hymns lately?

Now that I mention it, yes. I just started The Sound of the Dove : Singing in Appalachian Primitive Baptist Churches by Beverly Bush (!) Patterson (University of Illinoid Press, 1995) and even though I'm only about 50 pages into it I can tell it's worth finishing and then rereading (and singing along with; there's lots of musical and hymn-textual content as well as discussion and analysis.

Liland

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: MMario
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 11:08 AM

LIland, thank you for starting this thread. I don't have the knowledge to contirubute (I am still trying to get used to changing hymnals from the 1942 to the 1982 at church) but know there are at least a couple people "here" at the cat with a lot of knowledge in this area and I am looking forward to see a lively discussion and comparision of various hymnals.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Burke
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 12:07 PM

Sound of the Dove is a very good book. Once you are done with it, there are a couple from the Alabama Folklife Association that I like. Both come with CD's In the spirit : Alabama's sacred music traditions / edited by Henry Willett. Montgomery, AL : Black Belt Press for the Alabama Folklife Association, c1995. Try this to see a contents note. More specific to the Primitive Baptist style is Benjamin Lloyd's Hymn Book: A Primitive Baptist Song Tradition A book of essays with a CD recording documenting the history and current use of an historic hymn book.

Music of the highest class : elitism and populism in antebellum Boston / Michael Broyles. New Haven : Yale University Press, c1992. This book focuses on Boston, but is good for all of the Northeast from European settlement to the Civil War. There are several good chapters on the history of hymns in early America & explain how & why the music styles changed from the music that Billings wrote to Lowell Mason's style.

I'll do my hymnals later.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 12:47 PM

IVCF's Hymns III.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: Hymnals
From: Joe Offer
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:44 PM

I sure wish there were an online index of hymnals, like the UTK Song Index at the University of Tennessee, Knoxville. I often have a hard time finding hymns, and then realize I have them in my own library. Let me divide my hymnals into three categories:

• For Worship
  As a musician in a West Coast (US) Catholic church, I use the hymnals of the Oregon Catholic Press, and I'm reasonably satisfied with them; and I get supplemental stuff from the hymnals of GIA (Gregorian Institute of America), which seems to have the East Coast market. I suppose the modern hymnal that currently impresses me most is the 1989 United Methodist Hymnal. It has a very nice mix of traditional and newer hymns, and the editors seem to have used exquisite taste in choosing the hymns. I'd say it's a great hymnal for any mainstream church. I also like the Celebration Hymnal, although it's a bit heavy on commercial-sounding "praise music" - it's a good hymnal for Evangelical Christians, I think.
• For Nostalgia
  I'd like to have a hymnal of traditional Catholic music, but I haven't found one that satisfies me (i.e., I haven't found one that has the hymns I sang as a kid). My mom sold my Liber Usualis at a garage sale when they sold the Offer Family Homestead while I was away in the Army in Berlin, and now a reprint of that book costs $150 - it is THE comprehensive book of Gregorian Chant. I have a Kyriale and a Liber Cantualis and a book of chant Masses in modern notation, so I'm not chant-poor. I also have the St. Gregory Hymnal and the Pius X Hymnal, but neither is the ultimately satisfying Catholic traditional hymnal that I seek.
• For Fun
  I guess the hymnal "find" I'm proudest of is the Foursquare Hymnal, published in 1957 by the Echo Park Evangelistic Assiciation and the International Church of the Foursquare Gospel - it has a big picture of Sister Aimee Semple McPherson inside the front cover, and it's got lots of old-time gems like "Dwelling in Beulah Land."
  You'll also find lots of old-time hymns in Heavenly Highway Hymns, currently in print, from Brentwood-Benson Music Publishing - Dale Rose sold me on this one. If you're doing old-time or bluegrass gospel, this would be a good book to have.
  Praise sold me on the Country & Western Gospel Hymnal also from Brentwood-Benson. It comes in 5 volumes (plus a 6th "best of"), and the whole shebang costs about $65. There's some great old-timey stuff in these hymnals - songs that are really fun to sing.
  I was really pleased to find a 1957 AME Zion Hymnal (African Methodist Episcopal) because I expected to find it full of spirituals and black gospel, but I was disappointed to find it just has traditional Protestant hymns. If you like spirituals and black gospel, there are reprints available of the classic Slave Songs of the United States (Wm. Francis Allen, 1867), American Negro Songs (John W. Work, 1940), and American Negro Spirituals (James Weldon Johnson & J. Rosamond Johnson, 1925 & 1926). There's a recent book by Gwendolyn Sims Warren called Ev'ry Time I Feel the Spirit that gives a good overview of black religious music, plus words and music for 101 of the best songs.

I'd like to recommend one other hymnal for worship. It's a hundred-page gem from GIA called Taize': Songs for Prayer. These are songs from the interdenominational, coeducational Taize' monastery in France, mostly written by the late Jacques Berthier. Most of these songs are short phrases sung over and over again, with simple, haunting melodies. At least two churches here in Sacramento have weekly hours of sung Taize' prayer, usually led by a cantor and a single instrument (guiter or piano, usually). These sessions are most effective by candle light. The interdenominational background of the music is appealing to liberals, and conservative Catholics like it because it often uses Latin. I think the music of Taize' would be wonderful for any mainstream Christian congregation, either for regular worship services or for a Taize' prayer hour. I'll be glad to e-mail a couple of RealMedia examples to anybody who's interested in this music - but I can't get to it until after December 1. If you're interested, click on my name below to send me an e-mail, and put the word "Taize" in the subject title of your message so I remember what it was I was supposed to send you. By the way, the name of the monastery is pronounced "tuh-ZAY."

-Joe Offer (click to e-mail)-

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Jim Krause
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:08 PM

I am a fan of a capella four part harmony. I enjoy most singing hymns from The Sacred Harp or German chorales. The Taize hymns when done in four part harmony a capella are simply gorgeous.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:26 PM

Soddy, if you like a capella four-part harmony, you should come to our church of a Sunday. That's all we do.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Burke
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 06:07 PM

There's a really complete index available on microfilm to 5000 hymnals. It was a huge volunteer project before desktop computers were around. It's 179 reels. I suspect they'd love to computerize it, but need the money. Go here for a teaser.

In terms of hymns, I just won't survive alone on that legendary desert island. I want to sing with others. Like soddy I want 3-4 part, love it a cappella. Sacred Harp, 1991 edition is my first choice.

I'm not really familiar enough with others to have a preference. I like the Episcopal Hymnal fine for church. On the island, I'll take the edition that omits the service music and includes more harmonies. What I'd really want, though is a hymnal with traditional mainstream hymns but also the old time gospel music & some of the newer stuff. Anyone familiar with the current non-denominational offerings from Zondervan or other evangelical publishers? A Baptist (Broadman?) or Methodist hymnal might do it.

One older hymnal I've been getting some mileage out of lately is "Great Songs of the Church" from the Church of Christ. I found 10 for $1 each at a library booksale a couple of years ago. About half have a 1970's appendix, the rest date to 1930's. The first half is "Gospel Songs" & there are a lot of good ones. Part 2 is 'hymns' and then there are small sections for children & special music. It includes an a cappella arrangement of the Hallelujah Chorus. The best thing, though, is that with 10 copies I can sing from it with friends.

I'd also want some word only books with meter marked so I can find words I like & fit them to tunes I know. There's a new edition of Isaac Watt's The Psalms and Hymns of Isaac Watts out that I don't have yet. The Primitive Baptist books are small & easy to pack, Primitive Hymns, compiled by Benjamin Lloyd and one folks call Goble for it's compiler, that really titled Primitive Baptist hymn book for all lovers of sacred song.

Alex what's the style of your 4 part a cappella? Does the congregation sing in parts or just the choir? Is this unique to your congregation, or does it reflect denominational practice, which is ....?

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM

Aw, I think I'd take my binder full of the ones I have learned or want to, and my autoharp and a pencil to do arrangements.

Then I'd hop into the autoharp and float over to see Burke. She can sing loud enough, BTW, that at least two other islanders would have paddled over in their guitar and banjo from nearby.

Turns out all the islands are only a short distance apart-- there are so many of them it's actually quite crowded, even if they are invisible sometimes. When the people on them sing, even if only to themselves, it's a dead giveaway.

~S~

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:17 PM

Our style is primarily Russian SATB, with Carpatho-Rusyn (primarily 3-part (SAB)), and a little Greek/Byzantine (mostly 2-part (SB)) thrown in for good measure. It's an Eastern Orthodox church of Russian descent, although everything is done in English these days, and most of us are converts rather than lifelong (or "cradle") members.

We do some Rachmaninov, and one piece by Tchaikovsky; otherwise it's by composers I've never heard of.

Very lovely stuff, though. A delight to sing.

The choir leads the congregation, who mostly sing the Soprano part (people able to pick out the parts are generally recruited quickly into the choir!). The regular Sunday Liturgy service is about 2 hours long and well over 2/3 of it is sung. Then there's Vespers (Sat. nite, about 45 min., and well over 3/4 sung) and Matins (Sun. morning, during church school, about 1 hour, 100% sung).

By the end of the weekend, my vocal chords have gotten a pretty good workout!

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:51 PM

Songs Of Praise, Oxford Univesity Press Enlarged edition 1931 (renewed in the USA 1959) thirty seventh impression 1966.. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Burke
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:52 PM

Loud! You think I'm loud? Compared to the other people in that room?

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:58 PM

Dave, I just checked Songs of Praise out of the public library, and am just beginning to leaf through it. I notice it's got O for 1000 Tongues set to yet another tune I don't know (though frankly, it doesn't look as interesting as Lyngham, which I'm enjoying now that I know how the words fit). But a songbook edited by the likes of Dearmer, Vaughan Williams and Shaw is almost sure to have some gems in it.

Liland

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 12:54 PM

My favourite bathroom companion is a 1935/6 version of the Oxford Book of Carols. It only cost me $10can too. JohnB

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 07:41 PM

Songs and Hymns of Fellowship, combined edition. Has nearly 2000 songs and traditional hymns in it, and is wonderful. Failing that it would have to be a harmony edition of Hymns Ancient and Modern, so I can learn the alto parts....

LTS

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Marion
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 11:01 PM

I like "Voices United", which is used in United churches in Canada (maybe elsewhere, I don't know) because it includes descants for a lot of the hymns. I have a steady gig playing violin at the local United Church once a month, and I find that playing the descant on fiddle while the organ and choir works nicely. I write the descants if I have to, but it's nice to find them in the book.

And here's another vote for Taize music.

Marion

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 11:23 PM

Yes, Taize music is lovely.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Taizé
From: Haruo
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:43 PM

Does it need to be dark for Taizé? I'm thinking of trying to get a noontime Taizé (or at least Taizé-style) service started at Fremont Baptist, but I'm worried about whether we can darken the sanctuary sufficiently -- even in Seattle, "Fiat Lux" is occasionally obeyed -- as I associate Taizé with candlelit evenings.

Liland

PS I'll be at a retreat on Vashon Island this evening and all day tomorrow, so if anybody posts as Liland during that period, you'll know you've been hacked.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: MMario
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM

no reason why you can't do Taizé during the day. Just select your music appropriatly. The only Taizé I've ever heard has all been during daylight hours.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: mousethief
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 03:08 PM

Does it say "to be performed after dark only" in the sheet music? All the Taizé I've ever sung was during the day. Perhaps I should go to confession for this sin?

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Penny S.
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 03:13 PM

Dave, thanks for mentioning Songs of Praise. I'm just looking through to spot ones I remember from school.

"All the scenes of nature quicken", to a Chinese based tune called Shanghai.

"By the breadth of the blue", to Hickling Broad

"Forth in thy name", tune by Orlando Gibbons, Angel's Song ( I remember the Ancient and Modern flattened out the rhythm appallingly)

"So here hath been dawning", to Hardwick

just for starters.

Then there was Congregational Praise, complied for the Congregationalists, and with hymns I've not seen anywhere else. Though these may not be they.

"The God of Abram Praise" to Leoni

"The spacious firmament", to London (Think its in SOP, too)

"My song is love unknown" to John Ireland's tune

"Fairest Lord Jesus", to St, Elisabeth

They were a singing church in a way the Anglicans are not. Pity.

Penny

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Bradypus
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 06:52 PM

I'll join Liz with Songs of Fellowship 1&2, or Mission Praise 1&2, which is a very similar collection - the best of the old hymns, together with a selection of more modern praise hymns / songs. The combination is important - the old and the new together.

I was reading the article on hymns in the Oxford Dictionary of Music (to see what it had to say about 'fuguing tunes' after Burke's comments about Lyngham), and I thought the following quote was interesting:

"Whilst the average hymn book contains 400-500 hymns, the ordinary congregation sings only fifty or sixty".

The trouble is finding a book which contains the right fifty or sixty!

Bradypus

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Burke
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 07:48 PM

I have a question for the folks to the east of the Atlantic.

As any good American tourist I went into a fair number old of C of E churches both large & small while in England. I'm sort of compulsive about checking out hymnals when in a church. I saw very few with music and the word only books did not list either meter or tune names. I'd like to think this means the music director/organist has options on what tune to play, but suspect they have versions with the music pretty fixed. So what's up? The only chuches in the US that would provide word only books are the ones doing the really old way of the Primitive/Regular Baptists or ones totally into contemporary prise music. Even though the majority of the people can't read music, half the singers I know who can read music & sing harmonies learned to do it singing hymns in church. One of the big complaints in our choir is that too many hymns in our hymnal do not have harmonies. Is there a sort of official stance that all singing should be unison? If people aren't given a chance to learn I can see why they'd end up with only 50-60 that they know.

Is this word only situation also the case for the non-established churches? Are the books you folks have been mentioning used in the established church? What churches do use them, or are they used more in informal settings? How do people feel about not having music, or did I just happen to hit the wrong ones?

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Bradypus
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 08:12 PM

My own experience - others may vary.

I've never been in a church which provided music copies for everyone in the congregation. Applies to both established and non-established churches. Those who really like to see the music bring their own music copies of the hymn books. The choir will have music copies.

The organist can choose which tune to play, but for most hymns the congregation will expect the 'usual' tune; for some hymns there are two or three tunes that can be chosen. Sometimes the person leading the service will ask for a specific tune, usually before the service, so the organist knows what's coming. Situation is exactly the same for accompanists other than the organist.

Harmonies usually come from tradition, or from the choir, so are learned by osmosis, rather than taught. New hymns / worship[ songs may be taught a bit the first time, but is't usually a case of follow a strong lead, and pick it up as you can.

This based on a variety of Baptist, Presbetyrian and (very) low Anglican. Others may have different experiences.

Bradypus

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Burke
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 08:20 PM

I think there was a time in the US when many people owned their own hymnals & brought them to church. I've heard of them as common confirmation presents. Now we expect our churches to provide them. If the pews are completly full some will have to share, but not everyone.

I take it then, that the various books mentioned have both word only & with music editions. How big is the music edition of the one with 2000 in it? Is it several volumes?

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 08:41 PM

The problem nowadays with the "bring your own hymnal" idea is that people are too mobile, both in where they live, and what church they attend. When you lived in the same town all your life, and went to the same church all your life, you could get your own copy of the hymnal they use, and be safe bringing it to church with you every Sunday.

Nowadays, people move on the average every -- what? -- 7 years, and then you have to go looking for a new church. The larger denominations all have in-house hymnal publishing groups, but if you go to a "non-denominational" or smaller denom. church, then you never know what hymnal (if any!) they will be using the first time you show up. Or how long they'll keep using that hymnal until they decide to jump to a new one.

And even if you settle down in one of the "big" denoms, there may not be one of those churches in your town if you move to a small enough town, or one in a different part of the country.

Further, even more often than they move, it seems, some people have itchy butts and can't sit in the same pew more than a year or so, and have to go to a different church.

Not that anybody here has this unpleasant quality, but the churches have to take those who do into account, along with the movers and all that. Thus each church these days has to stock enough hymnals for everyone.

By and large I think that it's not that we've decided the church should be responsible for this and have shaken off responsibility from ourselves; rather, changing demographics as far as how often people move, and how "loyal" they are to one church, have made it a necessity for the church to supply the hymnals rather than the worshippers themselves.

Must my $.02.

Of course I go to a church that doesn't even HAVE hymnals. But that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish!

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Penny S.
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 07:06 AM

I know that Congregational Praise, words only, had metre information, because when I was a child, looking at it was one of the ways I passed sermon time, finding out which hymns could be sung to the same tune. Some churches I've seen with melody lines only. There's not a lot of harmony outside of the Methodists.

Musical, that is.

My comments above about the Orlando Gibbons tune came from one church, where I thought the elderly organist was playing wrongly, but eventually sneaked a look at the music version,and found it had been written that way. There was a group of us in the congregation who tried to hold the long notes as long as possible, and push the singing back to the real version every time it was sung. Quite funny.

Also the word correctors in another church. Here, the head of the local school had, without discussion, brought in a new hymn book. As the church used the school book for children's services, they had to go along with it. This book had had the words modernised, with the exclusion of thee and thou...sometimes, rewrites have been done by poets, and work. These were done by people with no soul for words, or the way they work with music. The changes had distorted the rhyme schemes, and led to the loss of good phrases, and phrasing. So there we were, the holders of the true word, at the back of the congregation, singing it right. It's sad that children will grow up having had the passion and the power simplified out of the language of worship. Imagine "Dear Lord and Father," thee-less. And since that was written by a man who used thee and thou for everyone, it was not special language in his case, so that argument for change isn't valid.

Penny

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 05:32 PM

Bradypus wrote:

"Whilst the average hymn book contains 400-500 hymns, the ordinary congregation sings only fifty or sixty". [quoting Oxford Dictionary of Music]

The trouble is finding a book which contains the right fifty or sixty!

...or a congregation that is out of the ordinary!

Liland

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 05:53 PM

Because I happen to be conversant with the older forms of English where "thou/thee" and "mine eyes" were normal, I think I am bothered more by (a) texts that randomly (as far as I can tell anyhow) switch back and forth, calling God "Thou" in one line or stanza and "You" in the next or vice versa, or (b) texts that read "My eyes have seen the glory" or "We give Thee but Thy own", than I am by competent and thorough modernizations. (Most hymnals that have tried to modernize "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind" have gone far beyond the pronouns, though. At least in the US "mankind" is nowadays frequently "humankind" ("Dear Lord embracing humankind" is the incipit of one published version I've seen), and some (especially UCC, the quondam Congregationalists) seem to feel there's something deleteriously patriarchal about calling God LORD.) When I switch from "thou/thee" to "ye/you" or back it's intentional and grammatically motivated, as in verse six of "In Bethlem Town", where the "thine" addresses Joseph alone, while the "your"'s encompass Mary and Jesus as well. But most modern English speakers, even literate and well educated ones, don't have a command of these niceties of Elizabethan usage.

6.God said to Joseph and his wife:
To Egypt go, to save your li-ee-ife.
Thine ancient namesake as a slave
To Egypt came your folk to save.

Too-loo-ree-lask, too-loo-ree-lun,

A sim'lar task awaits your son.

As you can tell, I'm back from the retreat of the last couple days. I wrote a little ditty on a wood louse, "The Potato Bug Hymn", to O Tannenbaum, while on retreat. See my forthcoming thread "Entomographical Hymnody: The Potato Bug Hymn".

Liland

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Bradypus
Date: 22 Oct 00 - 05:56 PM

Liland - Our congregation is out of the ordinary! (but not musically).

Burke - Songs of Fellowship vol 1 has 640 hymns on 1178 pages. Volume 2 takes us up to 1150 hymns, but it doesn't have page numbers - however we seem to be talking about 2000+ pages to cover the scope of the book of words in the pews. The good news is that the music books are musician friendly - clearly laid out, with guitar chords and words, and even with one verse of words lined up with the music (which can be important when it's not intuitively obvious how the piece is to be sung - cf the Lyngham discussion.

We don't use Hymns of Fellowship - that was Liz - but it seems that would double the size yet again.

Bradypus

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 06:35 AM

Yesterday morning I woke to "Praise to the Lord, the Almighty" on the radio, de-thee'd. Strangely, they had left in the difficult language of "ponder anew", which took me years to decipher.

Penny

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 11:09 AM

Yeah. Ponder a new what?

The people who do the modernizations are not usually half the poets the original lyricists were (alas, that's often been the case with earlier "alt."erers of hymn texts, too), and they're usually, it seems, working off of checklists. Check to make sure the thee's and thou's have been removed (and if you happen to remember, do something to sort of restore the rhymes). Etc. I write a lot of parodic verse, but most of my parodies are better as rhymed English lyrics than a lot of what you find in some of the more recent hymnals. (Not exactly bragging, just stating the facts, ma'am.)

Liland

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 01:15 PM

In Scotland, in a B&B, I once saw a hymnal in which every page was literally split (cut) in two. The music was printed on the top part, the words on the bottom part. This made it possible to mix and match tunes with words. You could turn to (say) page 125 on the top and page 221 on the bottom.

I have no idea whether the hymns themselves were interesting, but as a book, it sure was a curiosity. I have never seen anything like it anywhere else.

The book seemed old, but I don't remember whether there was a date printed in it.

Does anybody have any more information about this hymnal, or this type of hymnal? Does it have a name? Anyone ever actually used one? Any information about what church(es) used them and when?

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 03:14 PM

I had another thought on the thee thou thing. It is the imposition of metropolitan language on those (up north?) who still thee and tha each other! And the loss of that usage has hidden what all that God language really meant. Inferiors do not use the tu form to superiors. It is used in close personal relationships, or from superiors to those below (like calling mature slaves boy and girl, I suppose). Since it obviously isn't the second, it must have been the first, and would have fitted with the Abba/Daddy usage of Jesus.

And Liland, have you noticed the rhyme schemes on some more modern hymns? Verse one, all the rhymes the tune demands, plus, sometimes, internal rhymes very well done. Verse two, line ends still rhyming, though possibly some rhymes are weaker, but no internal rhymes. Verse three, some rhymes reduced to assonance, Verse four - some line end rhymes, of whatever sort lost, too. Verse five, if there is one, none.

Penny

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Bradypus
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 07:12 PM

Jim - It was almost certainly a Scottish Psalter, or psalm book. Generally used by the Free Church of Scotland (known as the 'wee frees'. The ones I've seen simply have metrical psalms, and perhaps some paraphrases (verses of the Bible set to a singable meter). Because there are only a few meters used in this case, it's easy (and less boring) to vary the tune - any match of words and tune (same meter) will probably do! (I'm not an expert, perhaps someone else will correct me).

In use, the singing would probably be unaccompanied, with the precentor (lead singer) giving the note, and everyone else joining in, often in harmony. I think the precentor may be allowed a pitch pipe or tuning fork, but no other instruments used in worship in these churches. Probably still used today; certainly still in use twenty years ago when I used to visit Dornoch every summer.

Bradypus

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Burke
Date: 23 Oct 00 - 07:35 PM

Our library has one of those split pages books. The Psalter in metre and scripture paraphrases with tunes : authorized for use in public worship by the Church of Scotland, the United Free Church of Scotland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Presbyterian Church of Australia, the Presbyterian Church of New Zealand, the Presbyterian Church of South Africa. London : H. Milford ; Oxford University Press, 1923.

The Pslams are in order 1-150. I don't recall the arrangement of the tunes, but there is a recommended tune for each psalm. My first impression was that it was good for mix & match, but on looking later, keeping the Psalms together as a whole seemed at least as important. In researching it I found it is sometimes bound with the hymnal for the above named churches. It's title escapes me, The church hymnary, maybe.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 11:13 AM

Burke, you say in the second paragraph you don't recall the title, but you gave it in the first paragraph! Such a book (Dutch door design or otherwise) is normally called the Psalter.

Liland

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Burke
Date: 24 Oct 00 - 08:05 PM

No, ours is a 247 p. version, Psalms only. It's also issued bound with an 867 p. hymnal. Now I have looked it up "Church hymnary has separate t.p. Music edited by John Stainer." Publication dates start as early as 1899. Only the first 240 pages of either are cut.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 25 Oct 00 - 11:40 AM

Sorry, I misunderstood what it was you didn't have the title for.

Liland

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 02:12 AM

Just as an FYI, should anyone want to ask me to look something up, here's a list of the hymnals (generally with dates and either denominational orientations or publishers) in my personal collection:

Adoru kantante, 1971 (KELI)
Adoru: Ekumena diserva libro, 2001 (IKUE/KELI)
African Methodist Episcopal Zion Bicentennial Hymnal, The, 1996 (AME Zion)
Al Dio sonu nova kant'!, 1958 (German Catholic Esperanto)
At the Lighting of the Lamps, 1995 (McGuckin)
Baptist Hymnal, 1975 (Southern Baptist)
Baptist Hymnal, 1991 (Southern Baptist)
Bring Many Names, 1989 (Wren)
Celebration Hymnal, The, 1997 (Word Music)
Chalice Hymnal, 1995 (Disciples of Christ)
Christian Worship, 1941 (Northern Baptist/Disciples)
Ekumena diserva libro I (IKUE/KELI, Taizé)
Ekumena diserva libro II (IKUE/KELI)
Ekumena diserva libro III (IKUE, Masses)
Esperanta himnaro, 1985 (Gentle)
Espero internacia (prunte: ca. 1920, US Esperanto)
Evangelia kantaro, 1952 (Swedish KELI)
Favorites Number Five, 1961 (Singspiration)
Gather Comprehensive 2nd ed., 2004 (Catholic)
Himnaro Esperanta 4th ed. (British KELI)
Himnaro Esperanta 5th ed., 1966 (British KELI)
Himnu la komunumo, 1997 (Ros')
Hymnal 1940, 1940 (Episcopal)
Hymnal 1982, 1982 (Episcopal)
Hymnal for Church and Home, 1927 (Lutheran)
Hymnal for Worship and Celebration, The, 1986 (Word Music)
Hymnal: A Worship Book, 1992 (Mennonite)
Hymnary, The, 1960 (United Church of Canada)
Hymnbook, The, 1955 (Presbyterian/Reformed)
Hymns for Creative Living, 1935 (Northern Baptist)
Hymns for Creatures Great and Small, 1997 (Animal Rights)
Hymns for the Family of God, 1976 (Paragon/Gaither)
Hymns for the Living Church, 1974 (Hope)
Hymns for the Spiritual Journey, 1992 (Anderson, Deal, Romney)
Hymns of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, 1985 (Mormon)
Liberala himnaro (ca. 1947, British Esperanto)
Lift Every Voice and Sing II, 1993 (Episcopal, African-American)
Lutheran Book of Worship, 1978 (4 US Lutheran bodies)
Methodist Hymnal, The, 1935 (3 US Methodist bodies)
Methodist Hymnal, The, 1966 (Methodist)
New Century Hymnal, The, 1995 (United Church of Christ)
New Hymnal for American Youth, 1930 (Appleton)
New Hymnal for Colleges and Schools, A, 1992 (Yale)
New National Baptist Hymnal, The, 2001 (National Baptist)
Ni vivu laŭeble plej bele, (Polish Catholic Esperanto)
Pilgrim Hymnal, 1958 (Congregational UCC)
Presyterian Hymnal, The, 1990 (Presbyterian)
Psalter Hymnal, 1988 (Christian Reformed)
Reasons to Sing, 1971 (Nazarene)
賛美歌, 1954 (Japanese Protestant)
讃美歌―讃美歌第二編, 1967 (Japanese Protestant)
賛美歌 21, 1995 (Japanese Protestant)
Sankta Nikolao en Nederlando (Dutch Esperanto Christmas Songs)
Select Songs of Praise, 1924 (Northern Baptist)
Service Book and Hymnal, 1958 (8 US Lutheran bodies)
Service Hymnal, The, 1952 (Hope)
Sing to the Lord, 1993 (Nazarene)
Songs of Praise Number One, 1904 (Presbyterian)
Songs of Worship, n.d. (Presbyterian, local)
Tero kaj Ĉielo kantu, ca. 1990 (KELI)
Thánh Ca, 1983 (Vietnamese, Christian & Missionary Alliance)
Thuma Mina, 1995 (German, ecumenical)
TTT-Himnaro Cigneta (online, Esperanto, 1997-2006)
United Methodist Hymnal, The, 1989 (Methodist)
Wonder, Love and Praise, 1997 (Episcopal)
Worship & Rejoice, 2001 (Hope)
Worship and Service Hymnal, 1957 (Hope)
Worship Supplement, 1969 (Missouri Synod Lutheran)
Worshiping Church, The, 1990 (Hope)
Youth Favorites, 1963 (Singspiration)

You may need to adjust browser settings to see the three Japanese titles (Sanbika, Sanbika & Sanbika Dainibu, and Sanbika 21, respectively, romanized) if indeed they can be viewed here at all.

I will entertain suggestions as to what my next few purchases in this field ought to be. (PM me.)

Haruo

PS: Incidentally, I believe I started this thread as "Hymnals". Where is the style book that says we must say "Hymn Books" instead of "Hymnals", and when and by whom was the thread retitled? Just curious. I find it a bit disorienting, that's all.

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: cetmst
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 09:38 AM

I have a collection of about 70 books of Hymns, Sacred Songs, Spirituals and Gospel plus about 16 books of Christmas Music
which I can post at sometime when my busy retirement schedule allows if anyone is interested. Included are books inherited from my grandparents' library, he a Covenanter Presbyterian minister and grandmother the descendent of a long line of German Reformed and Protestant Episcopal Clergy. These include two copies of the Book of Common Prayer of the Protestant Episcopal Church, cover inscribed with my great grandmother's name (Maria)Louisa Zeller (b. 1834) with the date March 1857 pencilled on the flyleaf, including The Psalter, Psalms of David in Metre and Hymns Suited to the Feasts and Fasts of the Church; Hymns for the Reformed Church in the United States (frontispiece missing but appears from family history to be ca 1850); Psalms and Hymns Adapted to Social, Private and Public Worship in the Presbyterian Church in the United States of America, approved and authorized by the General Assembly, Presbyterian Board of Publications, 1843 (words only)

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:16 PM

Just a note to laud Christian Life HymnalThe Christian Life Hymnal. Wonderful job. My review is at Amazon.

Haruo

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: masato sakurai
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 05:58 PM

Dutch-door type is usually called "split-leaf psalter." Still used by the Free Church of Scotland (See this review). I have four such books:

The Book of Psalms In Metre and The Scottish Hymnal, with accompanying tunes [Published for use in churches by authority of the General Assembly; The harmonies of the tunes revised by W.H. Monk] (Edinburgh: Thomas Nelson, [1872], 1884) [Tonic sol-fa notation]

The Psalter in Metre and Scripture Paraphrases, with tunes, authorized for use in public worship (Edinburgh etc.: Henry Frowde, 1900)

The Scottish Psalter 1929: Metrical Version and Scripture Paraphrases with Tunes (London etc.: Oxford University Press, n.d. [1929]) (N.B.: there's also a prose psalm edition of The Scottish Psalter 1929, which is a different book.)

The Scottish Psalmody, Being The Scottish Metrical Version of The Psalms (1650), with Tunes, revised edition (n.p.: The General Assembly of The Free Church of Scotland, 1977) [Tonic sol-fa notation]

Subject: RE: Hymn Books
From: Haruo
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 06:55 PM

Is the Scottish Free Church still a psalms-only (no human hymns) outfit? Also, how many different meters do they use, and how in such a book do you keep from trying to sing SM to 87.87.D?

Haruo

Subject: RE: YOUR Favorite Hymn Books
From: masato sakurai
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 07:40 PM

"In first three centuries of its existence, the Church of Scotland only used metrical psalms and paraphrases (portions of Scripture) sung without musical accompaniment. This is still the case in the Free Church of Scotland." (From Hymnbooks of the Church of Scotland - Wikipedia)

Subject: RE: YOUR Favorite Hymn Books
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 08:03 PM

Jerry Rasmussen introduced me to the New National Baptist Hymnal - it's about twelve bucks at a number of vendors. Lots of wonderful gospel music.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: YOUR Favorite Hymn Books
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Jan 07 - 09:08 PM

Well, I'll expose myself too. I generally like whatever is in my hands best, but lately that's prescribed by my parish as "Common Praise, Anglican Church Of Canada". Much better than its predecessor, imo. Also like Hymns Ancient & Modern, and especially The Cambridge Hymnal.

Don't have the numbers of books some of you all will have, just a few dozen, but maybe I should start a list before I get too many.

Peace, Mooh.

Subject: RE: YOUR Favorite Hymn Books
From: danensis
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 02:50 PM

My favourite is Sankey and Moody. I think my edition is dated about 1883 but its put away at the moment so I can't check,

John

Subject: Link to "I Bid You Goodnight" mp3
From: Haruo
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 03:58 PM

Does your Sankey & Moody have The Christian's Good Night in it? This is the hymn (text by Sarah Doudney, tune by Sankey) that, after being folk-processed in the Bahamas and melded with some call-and-response lines from the Spirituals, became the Grateful Dead's signature sign-off "I Bid You Goodnight". Tom Rawson has it on his latest CD (Listen).

I only know The Christian's Good Night from the Cyber Hymnal, myself.

Haruo

Subject: RE: YOUR Favorite Hymn Books
From: GUEST, Topsie
Date: 17 Jan 07 - 06:41 PM

We had Songs of Praise at school. Definitely my favourite hymn book, not because of the hymns but because of the most wonderful feather-light softness of the pages - a totally sensual experience.