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Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested'
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Subject: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Bob Bolton Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:41 AM G'day DT Compilers, Idid try to send this to Joe Offer, but I mucked up the address ... then Joe told me he is off and away for a month or so. Therefore, I am posting this list of threads (last posting by me, as at yesterday) and I hope I can keep them in some sort of order (I foolishly hoped that the structure might have survived HTMLing). As far as I can see, none of these are in the DT ... or the VERSION in the posting is not included (this is relatively frequent, as I have often posted VARIANTS). I have also tried to highlight any items with copyright considerations by the symbol ©. Most of the items I have posted are either copyright free or come from very public sources, not repertoires of working professional musicians. A few of the songs concerned were not posted by me, but they are ones in which I became involved and I would still like to see them get into the DT. Regards, Bob Bolton
Threads that MAY be unharvested song postings (last posting to thread, as at 25 Oct 2000) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: wysiwyg Date: 26 Oct 00 - 12:59 AM Dang, Bob, that's a lotta songs thar! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Bob Bolton Date: 26 Oct 00 - 04:54 AM G'day Praise, Yeah, well, I like songs and I tend to post Australian songs when people ask ... or when there is any other good excuse. I was getting frustrated that I could not see many of them reaching the Digital tradition (about a dozen, which are not included in the 40 odd here). Of course, I admit that I seem to have trouble finding some when I post - then someone else says that the song is already there ... maybe the SuperSearch Camel drowned halfway across the Pacific! egards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: bigchuck Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:06 AM I've put some on that don't seem to havebeen harvested yet either. Bigchuck: Re:lyrics req: Ride, Buffalo Soldier Ride Bigchuck: Re: Lyric and chord req: Telluride |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: paddymac Date: 26 Oct 00 - 08:16 AM It's a daunting task, I'm sure, keeping up with the lyrics posted, and the harvest crew are volunteers, so I think it's appropriate to "cut 'em some slack". But, Bob's point is well taken. I suspect that there are many other catters out there with similar experiences. Maybe it might be helpful to seek and train additional volunteers for the harvets crew? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 26 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM See also this ongoing thread: Songs you've posted, where people are listing songs they've posted which remain unharvested; often with hyperlinks, which may make things a little easier. Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Jeri Date: 26 Oct 00 - 11:42 AM I think the crew consists mostly of Joe Offer, although Dick and Susan may grab lyrics directly out of the forum. I'm sure there would be a few willing volunteers to harvest songs, but we'd need to have the template down exactly. It could also get confusing if more people were doing it, but if the "crew" needs and wants more help, we're here. I do think this thread and the "Songs You've Posted" one are good ideas. I often trace threads to which I've posted songs and send a PM to Joe if they aren't harvested after a few days. I think we should include links to the thread either as blue clicky or the written URL (and perhaps the JoeClones could clickify them) so Joe doesn't have to do a search for all of them. I do wonder how lyrics in threads with titles including the prefixes can get missed. If Joe or anyone else filters for messages with those prefixes, they ought to all show up. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Bob Bolton Date: 27 Oct 00 - 04:17 AM G'day Bigchuck, Paddymac, Malcolm Douglas and Jeri, Thanks for your comments. I know that 'harvesting' takes some time and don't expect to see the DT sprouting something I posted last week. This list is a collation going back over 2 years and I have not bothered with a few recent items. I did try to send the list to Joe but he is 'off duty' for a while, so perhaps I will have to wait till he is back ... I just hoped there might be others gleaning the field. Regards (and thanks to eveyone that makes the wondeful DT possible) Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: GUEST,kernow Jon Date: 27 Oct 00 - 06:48 PM Bob Do I understand from your list that you have posted the lyrics to "I've Burnt The Toast on Both Sides Now"? I've searched but can't find them. KJ |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Jon Freeman Date: 27 Oct 00 - 07:52 PM I've just had a look at the first 3 on the list and they don't appear to have been harvested. There is a system with the harvesting and lyrics that have been collected are marked as such in the thread (that is why you see ^^ next to songs. It means that a volunteer has collected the song). Jon |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Bob Bolton Date: 28 Oct 00 - 02:32 AM G'day all, Kerenow Jon ... OOPS! mea culpa maxima, I had not deleted that thread from my working list because I am still trying to get into contact with he author, Evan Mathieson, and ask him if he will post the lyrics ... he is pretty peripatetic and I have not yet collared him in real world or on hos email ... and I should have deleted it from the final post. I actually realised this just after I pressed submit - when it was too late to change. Anyway, regard that as 'work in progress'.
Oh well, as I said elsewhere (~):
The moving finger writes ... and strikes 'submit', Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Susan of DT Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:34 AM Thanx guys. If life ever calms down I'll get on it. Note that we did not mark harvested songs until July 99 or so, so you cannot tell by looking for marks whether a song has been harvested. New versions of the DT come out twice a year. The April 00 version did not make its way to mudcat (I think) and the next one is almost ready. It can take a while for songs to get integrated. Links help to find the songs, or dates at a minimum. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Bob Bolton Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:08 PM G'day Susan of DT, Thanks for that. I realised that the ^^ mark was a recent innovation and I have looked at DT for every item I left in my list. I can't absolutely guarantee that means they aren't there ... I have had the experience of searching and not finding - yet sometimes the song is there ... perhaps under a different name, but possibly called just what I would expect it to be. Another point is that sometimes what I have posted is what I consider a valid and significant variant of a title already listed ... but this is a subjective opinion ... and one derived from my Australian and traditional perspectives. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 19 Jan 03 - 09:23 PM HEre's one from a while back. It doesn't seem to be in the new DT, so |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Bob Bolton Date: 19 Jan 03 - 09:51 PM G'day George, I'm afraid that, after waiting with bated breath for the 2002 DigiTrad, I found that scores of songs I had contributed over the past years didn't make it into the DT ... under any name or spelling. Sadly, I can see why many others have expressed frustration and anger. The Digital Tradition is still a wonderful recourse ... and it is all compiled by a few dedicated volunteers ... and their judgements are driven by very different motivations from those who post their favourite songs/versions. My obsession is with the Australian canon - and I can only hope to somehow interest the harvesters. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: GUEST,Q Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:03 PM Bob, your songs remain in limbo. You are just one of the forgotten. Putting Lyr. Add: makes no never mind. It is very difficult to find some songs. Whenever I check for cow-sheep-pioneer songs I look at this thread for your list. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:19 PM Bob, I agree. The DT is a great place, and the new edition is excellent. (I keep thinking I should e-mail them to ask to put it into alphabetic sections ala the onliine edition). For completists like myself, it's an on-going project. NEver ever be finished, there is always something to add. However, I'm not complaining. I'll just bookmark this thread, and post things in here once in a while. Assuming you don't mind. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Joe Offer Date: 19 Jan 03 - 10:53 PM I think that the philosophy of the Digital Tradition is that there is no sense of urgency about getting songs added - that it's better to take time to get it right, and to make corrections to our past mistakes. Songs that are posted here in the Forum are available to everyone, and we do our best to index them and make sure the song title is in the message title. If we leave them up for a while before they're added to the Digital Tradition, we're more likely to get proper lyrics, songwriter information, and background information. Dick has been putting emphasis on tunes - he's much more likely to add a song to the Digital Tradition if he can add lyrics and tune at the same time. MMario and I had been posting MIDI tunes as soon as we received them, but we aren't able to upload MIDIs currently. Now that we have a working Windows version of the Digital Tradition, you can expect to see new editions come out more frequently. Each new edition will ahve several hundred new songs added - but will not include all the new songs posted here. Still, it seems to make sense ot keep posting, since the songs are available to everyone who visits Mudcat. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: toadfrog Date: 19 Jan 03 - 11:25 PM Joe, I'm confused. Last time I checked, none of the songs I put in the forum were marked with golden arches, including not the ones previously so marked. Maybe I'm growing careless or crazy, but I did not notice any. I believe I pm'd you about Shepherds Arise Am I mistaken, or has there been a change of policy? |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Nigel Parsons Date: 20 Jan 03 - 07:35 AM Further to Malcolm's much earler comment. Songs You've posted II is a suitable thread for listing those, together with hypertext links. Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 08 Aug 03 - 05:55 PM From '98 Hiroshima Nagasaki Russian Roulette |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Aug 03 - 07:14 PM We're working on a new harvesting system. Once it's in place, we'll ask the clones go go through the Forum systematically and tag lyrics, and then the harvesters will go through and choose which ones to harvest. The one George pointed out is a good example - I don't know whether I'd harvest it or not. I'd probably flag it for Dick and Susan and ask that THEY think. And they'd probably think for a while. It's a good song, but will it ever be part of the 'folk canon"? Remember that all lyrics posted here immediately become part of a searchable database. Certain ones, mostly songs that have a particular permanence, are reviewed, refined, and added to the Digital Tradition. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Mark Clark Date: 09 Aug 03 - 11:08 AM “…will it ever be part of the ‘folk canon’?”I don't think I'm the one to provide guidance on the selection of songs for inclusion in the DT—you all seem to be doing a great job— but I'm curious about the “folk canon.” Does this refer to songs that already are being widely sung by folksingers? Again, I'm not suggesting any definition of my own, I'd just never thought about the problem of making the choice and find I'm a little curious about the process. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Aug 03 - 12:00 PM Hi, Mark - I guess you'd call it a subjective process - final decisions are made by Dick Greenhaus, but I suppose all of us who harvest have an effect on the outcome because Dick often doesn't get to see the songs we bypass. We look at what Dick has accepted before, and I suppose we screen out some songs based on our idea of what he likes and dislikes. If you look through the Digital Tradition, you'll see that most of the songs are what most people would call traditional. There are at least some more recent songs, but I suppose recent compositions aren't taken as readily as the older ones, for a number of reasons. Preference is given to songs we can get a tune for, and also to songs that are likely to be sung by somebody other than the songwriter. Pop songs aren't generally accepted unless they've achieved a certain timelessness. "Hiroshima Nagasaki" is a borderline case. If somebody could find a tune for it, it would have a much better chance of making it into the Digital Tradition. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: GUEST,Q Date: 09 Aug 03 - 03:37 PM The more I check out old songs (19th c or earlier), the more I find that the tunes applied to them vary. In other words, singers used whatever tune that suited the meter, their style, and the times. With a little effort, suitable tunes can be fitted to most of the broadsides in the Bodleian Library and elsewhere. Looking at a more modern song group, cowboy songs, many of the older ones have had more than one tune fitted to them. Even the printed sheet music varies. To me, the tune is singer's choice, and of secondary importance to the lyrics. Insistence on the one, true, tune seems to be a development that came along with cheap sheet music and the beginning of copyright law. For many songs, the tune used by the writer-singer will never be known. More pertinent to Bob Bolton's complaints, Meredith and Anderson, in their introduction to "Folk Songs of Australia," say "From the examples given it is seen how a song learned from a single source by two or more singers can end by being sung to vastly differing tunes; and how a dance tune played by several musicians in the same district will develop many variations that may well be the result of the direct influence of the instrument upon which it is played." Another comment in the same book states "Of the hundreds of items forming the basis of this book not one tune was played upon nor a single song accompanied by a fretted instrument." I have to disagree with the statement "If somebody could find a tune for it, it would have a much better chance of making it into the Digital Tradition." Tthe tune should be the choice of the interpreter-performer. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: Joe Offer Date: 09 Aug 03 - 10:16 PM For traditional songs, Q, you're absolutely correct. Recently-composed songs are another matter. I think people expect a tune, in most situations. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Songs that don't appear 'harvested' From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Date: 14 Aug 03 - 04:27 PM Someone just brought up some of the Si Bheag Si Mhor/Fairy Hills threads. Looking through I don't see that song as having been harvested. That's one such thread. |
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