Do your nuts require surgery?

Subject: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:05 AM

I have read some of the threads on guitar tuning and have not found this particular topic mentioned yet . If it has been discussed forgive me
It is now acknowledged by most , if not all luthiers that saddle compensation alone is not sufficient to guarantee true intonation. For best results, the nut has to be compensated as well. This concept seems ludicrous at first glance. I remember scoffing when I saw an advert for Stelling banjos many years ago describing their compensated nut. Like everyone else (I magine) my first thought was What happens when you put a capo on ?.
However, some months ago I came across an article by NZ luthier Stephen Delft explaining the whys and wherefores of the process, and it was so convincing I decided to give it a try on my own (low-end) Martin, which has never played satisfactorily in tune. The process was long and tedious, and would be expensive if you hired a luthier to do the job (unless you are on Spaw's ass-biting list, he would give you discount rates I am sure). But the effort was well worth it. Previous problem chords like D7 and A now sound sweet and true.
It is worth mentioning here that the reason Taylor guitars sound so true is that they implement a modified form of nut compensation at the factory by moving the nut fractionally forward from the theoretically correct position. They could still benefit from tweaking however. Martin as far as I am aware do not do this (they certainly didn't on mine) and it shows, at least to my ear..

If anyone is interested I will search out the URL for the article I mentioned, or a search for Stephen Delft might turn it up. There has been a US patent granted to Buzz Feiten for this system, incidentally, which to my mind demonstrates the idiocy of the US Patent office. It's a bit like Rod Stewart claiming copyright on "Wild Mountain Thyme" ....

Murray

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:25 AM

My first thought wasn't about a capo but what about guitars like my Fylde Falstaff which has a fret just after the nut?

Jon

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: GUEST, Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:56 AM

Jon, my understanding is that Roger Bucknall does in fact advance the zero fret just as Taylor does with the nut.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: GUEST,Murray MacLeod
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:06 AM

For anyone who is interested, the URL is
http://www.mimf.com/nutcomp/
Sorry for not being able to do a blue clicky ,,,,

Murray

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: MK
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:00 AM

The blue clicky thing.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 12:39 PM

Well, sometimes the action needs to be lowered at the nut, so I guess the answer would be, conditionally, yes, depending....

I've never heard of intonation being adjusted at the nut, but I suppose it could be in some cases.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM

Thanks for the link Mike. I've been fascinated with the Buzz Feiten system for a while now but never had the nerve to try it. I'm turning the rest of my life over to total self-indulgence, so maybe I'll give it it a try.

and yes....I DID think this thread title sounded like one of mine when I'm trying to get a lot of people to notice a "chord" thread!

Rick

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: GUEST,Mark Cohen
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 06:28 PM

Rick, I'm glad you said something because I was beginning to think I was the only one who had that reaction to the title; and I'm sure our GUEST was wondering why nobody else did.

Actually, after the obvious (and painful) initial reaction, my next thought was remembering a conversation with the woman in Oregon from whom we bought a filbert (hazelnut) orchard in 1991. In response to a question about why we couldn't drive through the orchard when it was time to pick the crop off the ground, she said, "Why, you'd crush your nuts!" Now I have macadamia nuts, and they are definitely a much tougher nut to crack.

Sorry, I'll sit down now and let the luthiers back in. Fascinating discussion.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 06:38 PM

Well Mark..........HAve you heard the feakin' Budweiser ads? The one about "Let's honor the outside the stands peanut vendor." First time I heard it I did a double take. GREAT LINES in it.......

Nothing like sitting in those aluminum seats crunching your nuts. Or sitting behind home plate rubbing mustard on your wienie.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 08:07 PM

Man comes hobbling up to the ice cream shop counter and orders a chocolate sundae.
Soda jerk;"Crushed nuts?
Customer;"Nope. Rheumatism."

troll

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Catrin
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 08:20 PM

George Melly

See that man, his suit is black
He carries his nuts around in a sack

See that man his suit is grey
He plays with his nuts all through the day

Nuts, nuts nuts I'm talkin' bout nuts
You get 'em from the peanut man
Nuts nuts nuts, I'm talkin' bout nuts
You'd better get 'em while you can

etc.

So sophisticated, so mature. *bg*

Catrin

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From:
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 08:38 PM

There is a peanut brand here called "Nobby's Nuts". A few years ago it had a wonderful advertising poster which had a picture of three very uppity English types sitting at a table and the woman is saying, "Let's nibble Nobby's Nuts". One of the men is dropping his monicle and the other is sitting with a ramrod straight back gaping with his mouth open.

I have heard the term "Buzz Feiten" off and on for a number of years. It will be very interesting to find out what is involved. Thanks Murray

Murray

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Mooh
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:13 PM

Well, some Washburns have the BF tuning system, and they're okay tuning wise, but it won't compensate for a choked sound. I suspect there's many a luthier who's been making this kind of compensation for a long time, without trying to take credit for inventing something. There's nothing new under the sun. Mooh.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:02 PM

Now that everyone has read the article and made the proper measurement adjustments, lets really optimize the full sound/intonation of each string with a Novax Fan Fretboard. Anybody played one?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 07:43 AM

...still trying to figure out why it is only the windings of my G strings that get stuck in my nuts.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Barbara
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:00 PM

Well, John, the do this yourself adjustment I've heard for that involves a nail file or an emery board. Or possibly just a fine bit of sandpaper. If, of course you were serious. Otherwise, stick to being a Bottom and let the other(s) work it out for you with the appropriate tools.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:20 PM

The only fanned fretboard I've tried was on a Dingwall bass, and it was very comfortable. Never tried one on a guitar. The bass intonation and tone was superb, but everything else on the instrument was top notch too, which helps alot. Great concept.

So many guitars, so little time. Mooh.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: John Hardly
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:39 PM

Actually, I've tried an emory board, fine sandpaper, pencil lead, hacksaw blade, even a slip of paper under the string and still on two of my three guitars I still get the "PING!" of a stuck string and it's only the G. Presumably because its windings are fine enough to bite into the plastic. I'm ready for a neck reset on one and when I have that done I'm going to replace the nut with bone to see if that helps.--John

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 02:53 PM

It's not possible to make a guitar that plays in true pitch in every key. The notes you get are always an average - but that goes for almost every instrument except brass. Two points - (1) old Spanish guitar makers sometimes made the compensation by cutting a little (about 1/10") from the top of the fingerboard; (2) if you're trying to adjust a nut and overcut the slot, it's a lot easier to fill the slot up with epoxy adhesive and file back down than it is to try and fit a new nut. And if you're trying to change the nut on a Martin, saw it off with a fine X-Acto saw or a veneer saw, pare the mess out with a chisel and fit a new oversize nut. The glue they use is so strong that if you just try to chip the nut off (which works on most other makes) you'll spend the following day trying to glue the top of the fingerboard back together.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:16 PM

Buzz Feiten - the ONLY thing to do with an instrument.

I just got Old Mose back from my Luthier (Clicky) and cannot believe the difference! The session that Mark made last night is the first I've played Mose upon the return. Four straight hours of music and it was in tune and on time all night! Capo or not it just would not go out of tune. And he rang like a bell. My bass is much better, the midrange sparkles, and the high end is like the finest of church bells. The harmonics made my ears ring they are so clear. Unbelieveable.

Jon shortened the neck by .020 of an inch, swung the high E end of the bridge nut towards the back of the guitar by .120 of an inch. Each string is now perfectly in tune with the rest and with the instrument. This is not so much a "tuning system" but an intonation system that puts the instrument in touch with itself.

I am just not able to believe this work has made such a dramatic change. I went over to Charlie's place, the dear friend who loaned me his 42 D-18 to grump about with while Mose was in the shop. He was blown away by the difference.

It cost me $250.00 to have the job done, and I wouldn't even dream of attempting it myself, and I have a brand new instrument in my hands. I've loved Old Mose since I met him in Dorsey Music's old shop 26 years ago - and I'm falling in love all over again. The really weird thing is that the guitar is starting to "settle in" again. It's like once again the sound improves with each song - I haven't hung Mose in front of any speakers and am not liable to - but it is sounding so much better.

WOW

Anyone else have any experience with this system?? Sure worked for me.

Provided my blue clicky is on you'll see the shop where Old Mose has been worked on and what Jon does for a living. He has some really finely aged wood in there and wants to build me an instrument. But that should probably be an addition to another thread??

Steve

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:22 PM

Interesting Steve, I'm trying to understand what the difference would be in shortening the neck a fiftieth of an inch or moving the bridge the same distance. 'Cept that it is much more difficult and would cost more.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:23 PM

Correct (Clicky) is here for my Luthier.

Steve

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:26 PM

Dam clickies anyway - getting in too big a hurry! Try this one - (Clik?)

I'd e-mail Jon and ask him bert -

Steve

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 05:32 PM

bert - I don't pretend to understand the movement except in a basic sense that any change in the distance from string end to end will produce a different pitch. Like water in a jug - more water higher tone. So it makes sense to me that by making them equidistant in length as far as tone goes then it also would seem to make them produce sound with an improvement in clarity. It sure woke mine up. An unbelieveable amount!

Steve

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Jeri
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 06:01 PM

He only moved one end of the bridge back. If he'd moved the other end of the bridge up instead of shortening the neck, it probably would have played hell with pitch.

I think my nut's OK, but my bridge needs to be raised. The action is like butter, but the 2 lowest strings buzz when I get above the 5th fret or so. They make an intersting "snap" sound when I really hit the bass strings. It would work for blues, but that buzz is just annoying. The questionably sane Mr. Fielding has suggested doing something weird (my, what a shock) involving coffee stirrers. I expect I'll have to change the strings someday, and may try it then. (I'm not quite sure how to get the saddle off, but suspect it involves sliding it backward.) Maybe this calls for yet another creatively named thread: "Oh, That Low (guitar) Bridge."

The more I play, the more I really love this guitar. It was relatively inexpensive, but I've messed around with "name" instruments in stores, and I still like the sound of mine better.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: 53
Date: 09 Dec 01 - 07:02 PM

we have 2 big baby taylors and here just recently we had some nut surgery performed on them and they recovered very well and they play much better. BOB

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Newport Boy
Date: 09 May 11 - 10:21 AM

But at least most of us can spell!

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 May 11 - 03:24 PM

Intellect is invisible to a man who has none. So too good taste.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:17 PM

GUEST,anp[heni harrrison had a lobotomy. Don't use big words with him.

Subject: RE: Do your nuts require surgery?
From: gnu
Date: 09 May 11 - 04:32 PM

Hahahahahaaa.... hahahahaaaaa