BS: Was the fix in?

Subject: Was the fix in?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:58 AM

Why did they punch twice?

As I watched the news and listened to reports, this question kept coming back to me. If, as a voter, you thought you punched the wrong hole, you would ask for a new ballot. Every ballot for President that I have ever used said "Vote for One". Why would someone intentionally invalidate their own ballot by punching a second time?

I personally don't think the ballot is that confusing. We use it in Chicago without the kind of problem they're having in Florida. But I can understand someone punching the wrong hole, even when they had seen the ballot in advance (in the paper and in the mail). Someone inadvertently voting for Buchanan is impossible to prove and must be wrung up as "too damn bad".

But I cannot understand how 19,000 people, all in a single county, all tried to fix their mistake by punching again when it's pretty common knowledge that voting twice would invalidate the ballot. The contention that 16,000 votes were similarly discounted in 1996 is also hard to understand. Did the same people make the same mistake two elections in a row and then get 3,000 of their friends to do the same thing?Unless you think that the 19,000 most confused people in the country all happen to live in the same county, you have to come to the conclusion that something else happened in Palm Beach County.

There are two ways to illegally skew a vote count: Give your own candidate more votes than he/she deserved, or eliminate votes for your opponent. I am beginning to think that votes for Al Gore in Palm Beach County were punched a second time by someone trying to invalidate those ballots.

This "second punching" could have easily been done during the time that the ballot boxes were "in transit". The polls closed at 7:00 and the votes weren't in and counted until 2:30 AM. It would have had to been done by someone without breaking the seal on the boxes, which would indicate that this was worked out according to a plan that was executed in at least the last two elections.

Although I don't see the point in whining over an election that was lost fair and square, I'm beginning to think that the fix was in. I don't think what happened in predominantly Democratic Palm Beach County was "voter confusion". I think it was vote fraud. And I'm from Chicago. We have more than a little experience with this stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:10 AM

Interesting points. Rog said a long time ago, they tried the butterfly ballots in New Hamshire, where he grew up. They found them to be so confusing and faulty, they trashed them and went to something else.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:17 AM

I don't know about vote fixing, but why are some places still using paper ballots of any kind? Here in Davidson County in the Great State of Tennessee, we have voting machines where you push little buttons and have a chance to stand there and check and double-check before you push the big VOTE button. That is the ONLY thing I have ever voted on in the 12 years I've been voting. If the Postal Service can make all manner of laws governing the standardization of postage scales and meters, why in the sam hill can't we have standardized voting equipment? In the computer age it seems silly to use paper ballots ESPECIALLY in a Presidential election when you are talking about millions of votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:34 AM

Kim, we use paper here in Wyoimg. We use a pencil to fill in the broken arrow which points to whomever we want to vote for. Then we feed the ballot into an electronic looking box which counts the ballots. I don't know if it also counts the votes.

I agree with you it does need to be more uniform.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: GUEST,Uncle J.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:46 AM

This is surely going down in the history books as "Clusterf^&#$ 2000"! Oh, by the way; you must be familiar with Algore's Campaign Director, Jim (i think) DALEY. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't his Daddy affectionately know around Chicago as "King" Daley, or something like that? Now there's a guy we can look up to as a role model for clean, fair, elections, no? How about the big Unions forcing employers to give Members Election day off (with pay, no doubt) so they could "volunteer" for the Party of choice; their choice, or the Union boss's choice? Which Party might THAT be, hmmmm??? Gee, our shop had to WORK Tuesday. Did yours? (You do "work", don't you?) And the "pack of smokes for your vote" trick with the derelicts of one city (where they actually got caught) was cute. Now which Party was it they were being "encouraged" to vote for? If the perps actually get prosecuted, tried and convicted of election fraud, that will be a good indication that it might have been GOP. But I don't think so. What I'm suggesting here, if you're still reading this, is that caution (is "discretion" still in the PC dictionary? I know that "Honor, "Truth" and "Responsibility" have long since been deleted) might be indicated here before we go pointing ALL of the accusitory fingers in the SAME direction, as our Komrades in the "news" and entertainment industry are so wont to do! Now I'm trying to be at least a little open-minded here, - which is admittedly a bit of a stretch for an old Yankee dissident redneck dittohead politically ATROCIOUS conservative Christian prolife NRA dinosaur (are we extinct yet?) ... but is it reasonable to ask fellow Americans, including those of alternative persuasion, to extend a reciprochal effort?
We had two "Americas" from 1861 to 1865, and I'm hearing some pundits claiming that it's shaking down to a similar polarization this week. As I stood on Little Round Top overlooking the hallowed ground of Gettysburg, I wondered; "How many gallons of blood were poured out on this place? How many gallons of tears flowed down in homes North and South as a consequence? Can we yet smell the acrid smoke from still-smouldering embers of resentment and hate wafting out from beneath that old pile of ashes remaining from the long-since Dead?". Do YOU want to go there again? Go to G-burg, or Anteitam, or Shiloh Hill, or Cold Harbor... and look for yourself; feel for yourself... THINK for YOURSELF! Walk among the silent white headstones in vast array, where fly the Battlejack and Stars & Stripes, sometimes side by side, and listen to the still, longago voices... then ask you heart. Do we really want to go stirring in that old pile of bones and ashes? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:29 AM

Bart: You make some excellent points and I'm with you all the way until you get to the conspiracy theory. I think 19,000 dumbos simply screwed up their ballots, and when their man didn't win, they decided to protest in hopes of being able to vote again.

The disappointed are looking to any possible avenue to keep this thing brewing. I've seen the ballot in question. We used to use that same ballot in Arizona, but have gone to the same type Wyoming evidently uses. The folks who voted for Buchanan but did not intend to, were just careless. Arrows are very easy to see, and an arrow pointed to each name on the ballot. Carelessness should not be rewarded by allowing those folks another shot at it. If Gore had won handily, you never would have heard the word Butterfly Ballot, in my opinion.

Guest Uncle: I read your whole post, and appreciate where you are coming from. Just a suggestion, though, you will stand a much better chance of folks reading long posts if you break it up into paragraphs. It's much easier to read that way.

Best, DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM

Yeah, but do you think it probable that someone could think they would get away with "fixing" 19,000 ballots?

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:57 AM

Geez, I should be ashamed of myself. I left out the part about the second-puncher being seen on the grassy knoll. . .

Actually, when I went back and re-read my post I realized that in stating the possibility that someone tampered with the ballots I made it sound like I believed that actually happened. And although it could have, it probably didn't. I heard on local public radio that around 120,000 ballots are routinely disqualified in Chicago alone each election. I don't know how many people are in Palm Beach County, but there is a good chance that 19,000 bad ballots is perfectly reaonable.

What I really wanted to point out is that there are legitimate reasons to question the results in Florida and to not rush to any conclusions. There is more to the Democrat's complaints than the whining of sore losers. Luckily for me there are some sensible heads here in the Mudcat who found substance in my post. I was trying to be provocative to draw people into the discussion and ended up sounding like Mel Gibson in that conspiracy movie with Julia Roberts (but it turned out he was more than just another goof, didn't it?).

At any rate, trying to figure out a way to avoid these kinds of dubious conclusions in the future is undoubtedly more productive than speculation (or allegation) of past fraud.

Bart, apologizing all the way

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:03 PM

I spent many years checking other peoples designs and then even more years in customer support debugging peoples computer programs.

A few mistakes are due entirely to the stupidity of the person making them. But MOST mistakes are created by confusing environments and/or instructions.

In this case the mistakes were CREATED by a confusing form layout. Now I think this was much more likely due to lack of experience on the part of the designers than to any ulterior motive. (If an ulterior motive was involved the layout would have been much more subtle)

The logic used by those who punched For Buchanan in place of Gore went as follows... "I punched the FIRST hole that aligned with Al Gore's name"

The logic for those who punced twice was exactly the same - until they thought about it - Then they thought "No this hole is right in the middle of Gore's name so THIS must be the one" and they punched again.

Others who asked officials for help, received none because the officials didn't know either.

DougR, I suppose calling them 'dumbos' because they reacted differently than you would have to a confusing situation makes you feel very superior.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:12 PM

Bartholemew,

I suppose by now you heard the clarification from MSNBC last night that the 19,000 ballots did not represent 19,000 VOTES NOT CAST. They were a pile of ballots that WERE REPLACED WHEN PEOPLE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKE. The reason they were initially brought to the public's attention was to illustrate just how confusing the ballot was--NOT TO SAY THAT 19,000 VOTES WERE NOT CAST.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:17 PM

Well, if you make a ballot so simple even an idiot can use it...

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:29 PM

Excellent points Bartholomew. My and my family's experiences has convinced me that a certain level of paranoia is a good thing when thinking about politics in general and elections in particular. Where I grew up, election day was typical a day of miraculous resurrections, with the newly risen eager to vote.

John, my friend the judge has reminded me repeatedly that the people he deals with are not rocket scientists. If they were actually capable of conceiving and taking seriously the probable consequences of their actions they wouldn't be dealing with him. He's never encountered a miscreant who said, "I knew I'd never get away with this." As for the 19,000 figure, the thinking would probably be "Who's gonna notice or care about a measly 19,000 ballots."

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:34 PM

I suppose by now you heard the clarification from MSNBC last night that the 19,000 ballots did not represent 19,000 VOTES NOT CAST. They were a pile of ballots that WERE REPLACED WHEN PEOPLE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKE. The reason they were initially brought to the public's attention was to illustrate just how confusing the ballot was--NOT TO SAY THAT 19,000 VOTES WERE NOT CAST.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:41 PM

John H. - I had not heard that. Thanks for the info.

Bart

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:03 PM

Bert: no I do not think that I am superior to those disaffected voters, but I can read. I can see arrows and the direction in which they point.

John: I had not heard that either. I'm surprised more has not been made of it, if you heard correctly (not saying you didn't) but it's strange that news has been squelched.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:08 PM

Y'know Rick Fielding mentioned in another thread that media organizations are going to make a ratings KILLING on the continuing of a controversy. Does it really surprise you that information that would quell the squall would be spiked?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM

So does that mean that those 19,000 votes have been counted?

Here in Tennessee we had a snafu with the Motor/Voter thing... when you renew your driver's license, you can register to vote at the same time. Very handy for new residents. You check a little box on the application. But apparently you're supposed to fill out some forms or something. Anyway a whole bunch of people in Davidson County thought they were registered to vote because they checked the little box... but they weren't, since they hadn't filled out the papers too.

The Election Commission, realizing what was happening ON ELECTION DAY, kept their doors open until 7pm to register people and let them vote there (which doesn't usually happen). Several people did not make it there in time and were not able to vote.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:28 PM

KimC,

Yes. According to what I heard on MSNBC last night.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:48 PM

DougR, forgive me for concluding that your remark calling them 'dumbos' should indicate to me that you felt superior to them.

I will revise my opinion and assume that the 'dumbo' remark was intended to indicate 'equality'.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:59 PM

Ooooh!!

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:03 PM

Sorry, I just couldn't resist that. I think the world of Doug, he's a great guy, but I ain't gonna let him get away with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:33 PM

Me too bert.

I think Doug was simply using "Dumbo" in the "Dumbo the Elephant" sense....and of course that's the symbol for Republicans. He simply meant that a lot of Republicans actually voted for Buchannan when they meant to vote for Bush.

Now what about those "Donkeys" who say they were turned away at the polling station?

Yup, John Hardly, CNN, NBC, CBS etc. are over the moon about this! Every rightwing radio talkshow host as well. Can you imagine Rush Limbaugh's dillema if Bush had won (without controversey). He'd have had to devote the next four years to Hillary Clinton, and even HIS faithful would have gotten sick of that.

The bottom line (oops, s'cuse me, MY bottom line) is that the political future of everyone involved in this is KAPUT! Neither Bush, Chaney, Al, Joey, especially Jeb, and possibly Colin, will forever be connected with a snafu that is gonna stay vicious for a long time. Does anyone think that Dubya will get co-operation from Dems? Does anyone think that Algore will get co-operation from Repubs? Have you seen the not-so-carefully concealed hatred from the candidates' flacks the last three days? Do you think that's gonna mellow out? I don't.

I'd be lookin' at 2004 if I was a politician, and trying to find two candidates who had NO involvement in this. I'm not blaming Bush and Gore. I think for politicians they're probably decent men....but they sure fell into a pool of quicksand.

Possible scenario: Gore concedes. Bush inaugurates. Several months later the lawsuits go in favour of the Florida voters who say they were jobbed. Results are overturned. Turns out that Gore wins vote AND electoral vote.....BUT he conceded.

OI VAY! YO MAMA!

Rick (why the hell am I so interested in American politics?.....'cause you should see how dull Canadian politics are.)

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 06:46 PM

Ok, bert, Rick: I shouldn't have used the word "dumbo." I should have limited my remarks to those folks who have difficulty following directions, cannot read, or cannot figure out what all those arrows pointing to names means.

Is that better?

Dumbo is a quicker way to say it, but I don't want to offend ANYBODY! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:13 PM

What bothers me the most about this whole election is that you cannot trust the motives of anyone involved. There are no "statesmen" in this mess, just venal little people looking for a way to squeeze out a little advantage over the other guy. Where is the sense of doing what is best for the country in all this? The only time you hear that phrase invoked it comes after some guy makes the suggestion that the other side should give up.

I suppose it's what we deserve - we can't even have a discussion of the "facts" without assuming that they have been skewed for partisan reasons. Democracy assumes that - at bottom - we are honorable in our intentions, informed in our opinions and fair in our judgments. Well, we're very near the bottom and I see scant evidence of these characteristics in the general populace. Present company excluded, of course.

Enjoy the day, Catters. We will all survive this. Who knows? We may even end up better for it.

Bart

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:47 PM

Doug, I have not seen this form but a badly designed form will confuse even those who don't normally have dificulty in following directions and the blame can only lie with the designers of the form. Perhaps you would care to explain why this problem only appears to of occured to such a degree in one area - are you suggesting that this area has a higher percentage of "dumbo's" (or people that can't follow directions) than in the rest of the US.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 03:18 PM

Jon: I'm surprised you haven't seen the ballot, which has been shown numerous times on CNN, MSNBC and other networks. But since you haven't, to me, it looks very clear. If one had one's head up you know what, it is concievable that one could accidentily punch the wrong place I suppose, but that would be the only way, i think. Please keep in mind the vast majority of voters did not have a problem in the county. I would not be too surprised to learn (though we never will) that many of those who are screaming are not really sure which hole they punched. So much publicity has been devoted to the subject, many of those might just not remember whether they punched the right hole or not. Just conjecture on my part, of course.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 03:31 PM

But DougR- I think that is really the point. One shouldn't have to remember which hole one punched, only know which candidate one meant to vote for. Which does seem to point to a basic flaw in the format.

In looking at the ballot replica, the only part that seems confusing to me is that the Reform Party block is higher in space than the Dems. But in voting, one might not automatically scan from left to right but as a list from top to bottom, in which case the second arrow/hole would seem to belong to the Democratic ticket.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:19 PM

DougR,

I consider my self to be a person with at least a little bit of intelligence. We had a confusing ballot where I voted as well. Not, I think, as confusing as the ones in Palm Beach County.

We did not have any time limit on how long we could spend on making sure we had done it correctly. I probably spent at least ten minutes on it. If I had had a five minute time limit imposed upon me, as the people in Palm Beach County did, I might have made a mistake, as well.

Do you want to call me a dumbo?

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:30 PM

What? MSNBC is claiming the double-punched ballots are throw-aways that had been replaced?

If so many people double-punched intentionally -- well, that's a conspiracy theory as well, it seems to me. Just as much as the theory that the ballots have been tampered with.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:36 PM

He has done, Carol. Sevaral Times! He's a real gentleman.
Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Stewart
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:05 PM

Whatever happened to common (uncommon?) sense in this whole matter. According to the US constitution, it is up to each state to decide how its electorial votes will be decided. In Florida (and I would guess all other states) the final vote has to be certified in some way or other after all the votes have been counted. And if margin is less than a certain percentage, a recount is mandatory before final certification. So what's wrong with simply waiting until final certification (particularly in an election that is this close). Then if there are legal challenges, let them go through the courts (which in most cases are reluctant to change the final outcome). Here, one candidate wants to take the uncertified tally before all the votes have been counted, because that would give him the election. The other candidate wants to keep challenging until it turns around in his favor. As Bartholomew said, "there are no statesmen in this mess". Both candidates are so weak, that whoever wins this one is going to be a one-termer, and the other party sure to win in the next election. So let's just wait until all the votes are counted and certified and graciously accept whoever the winner (not whiner) happens to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM

Carol: Of course not. You voted didn't you? You said it was a bit confusing but you did vote! Didn't your state supply you with a sample ballot in advance? I think most states did. Florida did.

And your remark, Guest Stackley/Greg F, or whoever, is as usual, insulting, personal and uncalled for.

I have apologized for using the word, "Dumbo" in this, or another thread. It was a poor choice of words on my part. Please, though, Greg, Stackely, etc., don't feel I'm apologizing to you. I can't imagine a scenario where that might happen.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM

"Jon: I'm surprised you haven't seen the ballot, which has been shown numerous times on CNN, MSNBC and other networks"

Ah but Doug, I live in the UK and besides that, I don't have a TV or buy newspapers.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 07:01 PM

I'll tell you what's uncalled for, Doug. It's linking my name with someone else's, repeatedly, with no evidence to back up your accusations. Or are you such an egotistical bastard that can't believe more than one person might think you're a supercilious asshole?

But thanks for your puerile comments.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 08:13 PM

DougR,

I did not see a sample ballot for my precinct. I don't know if any were given out.

The instructions that came with the sample ballot in Palm Beach County, Florida said quite clearly, "Punch the hole that is to the right of the candidates name." Except some of the holes were not to the right of some of the candidates' names.

I can see how an inteligent and thoughtful person who read the instructions ahead of time, and who was facing a five minute time limit and several ballot initiatives to vote on, could, in their haste, get it wrong.

As I said, if I had not had as much time as I needed (easily twice as long as five minutes), I could very easily have made a mistake myself.

But, really, the reason I posted earlier is because it saddens me to see name calling in the forum, especially when it comes from someone I usually associate with gentlemanly behavior.

I see that you have apologised and so my faith in you is now restored.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM

Thanks, Carol.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 07:01 PM

All I know is..Jeb promised Dubbya the election in Florida. Have you seen the papers? A mere 3 years ago, Dubbya signed legislation to force a hand recount of close elections. Guess he's now above the law?

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 08:52 AM

I agree with Bart that statesmanship hasn't been much in evidence for the past week. In some ways this is the first true test of quasi-Presidential leadership that Bush and Gore have been offered. So far, I don't give either of them high marks. Gore has been the better of the two (marginally), by absenting himself from the controversy as much as possible, while Bush has tried to play a transparent "presumptive President" public relations game. But either one of them could have been more of a stabilizing influence had they stepped out front to personally appeal to the better natures of their constituents, rather than using surrogates to raise the stakes the way they have. And either one could still exercise leadership by making decisions that are formulated with the country's best interests in mind, rather than just mobilizing the ambulance chasers and legal spin doctors.

This needs to play itself out in accordance with US and Florida law, and for all the bumps in the road I am glad that is what seems to be happening. But in the mean time we need leaders who can go beyond the legal minutiae and communicate with the American people in a way that makes it clear they will always put the country's interests first. That's what a true leader would do in this situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM

Whistlestop: The Secretary of State in Florida has announced that all hand counting of all ballots that are being recounted must be completed by 5:00 PM tomorrow afternoon. A member of the Elections Commission read the state statute that requires that to happen on television. Yet, the Democrats are crying foul because the Secretary of State will not violate, or simply ignore state law, and extend the deadline.

Are the Democrats being reasonable? Sure, many will say, because the Secretary of State is not jumping through their hoop.

Yes, Bush has been seen as making preparations to assume the presidency. He has been engagedin discussions with his staff and Cheney about the possible transition.

What has Gore been doing? Playing touch football on his lawn? Sure he has. That offers the press ample photo ops, so he can be pictured as merely sitting back and letting the process proceed. If, in fact, he is not behind closed doors doing the same thing with his staff that Bush is doing with his, IMHO, he is a fool.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:22 PM

Doug, I assume (and hope) that both Bush and Gore are planning for the future, however uncertain it may be. But in addition to communicating with their advisors behind closed doors, they should be communicating openly with the rest of us. All the strategizing and posturing they are doing is permissible, and perhaps necessary. But it isn't evidence of great leadership. And despite my personal preferences (I voted for Gore, and I know you voted for Bush), at the moment I think they are both coming up short in the leadership department. Gore may be pretending that he is leaving all this to others. Bush is certainly pretending that he is "the winner" at this point (and his staged "cabinet building" is offensive, in my opinion). That's a lot of pretense; I think we have a right to expect better.

An honest, unbiased person would recognize that there are legitimate points on both sides of this debate. Bush is right that we all need, or will need, a sense of finality to this election -- that these recounts can't go on indefinitely. Gore is right that we all need some confidence that the election was fair, and the vote count was accurate -- confidence neither side can truly have, at the moment. In my opinion both are squandering an opportunity to approach this honestly, acknowledge the ambiguity of the result, and work in a statesmanlike way towards a solution that is based on more than rhetoric and procedural hair-splitting. Think about it -- based on what you're seeing right now, can you see either one of these guys brokering a Mideast peace deal?

Respectfully yours (in all sincerity) -- WS

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:35 PM

It think those voters who were screwed out of voting should be counted. Then, if Dub Dub is in fact the winner, ok. Let him serve. (he wont last more than 4 years anyway). BUT the drunken liar will never be MY president.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:59 PM

WS: I can't see one thing in your post to disagree with. But, either way the count goes in Florida, we are going to have one of those guys trying to broker a mideast settlement. They are all we have.

So, Kendall, if Bush wins, who IS going to be your president? You're just not going to have one? Wish you lived nearby, and we could just go down to the Dubliner and have a Guinness together.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: Bert
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:59 PM

Yup, that's better Doug, You're a gentleman.

Bert.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:00 PM

Well, bert, WC, why don't you join me and Kendall then?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:09 PM

Kendall, I'm assuming you're a US citizen, and unless you're going to change your citizenship, whichever of these two jerks wins will be your president as well as the rest of ours'.

This "he's not my president" attitude is what gave us the whitewater-cum-lewinsky investigation, with its attendant spending of millions of taxpayer dollars (I thought the Republicans were supposed to be AGAINST spending taxpayer money? I guess witch-hunts have an automatic exemption?).

If Dubya wins, he will be my president. If Gore wins, he will be my president. Whichever one wins, God help us for the next 4 years.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: kendall
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 04:02 PM

denial is more than just a river in Africa..

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 04:11 PM

Your funny, Kendall.

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:26 PM

I suspecdt that, sooner or later the folk-wisdowm of Amwerica will decide this was a fix if Bush gets in, and a failed fix if Gore gets in, regardless of what the actual truth was. The alternative is just too embarassing.

Is the saying about not being able to organise a booze-up in a brewery current in the States?

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:56 PM

I'm not familiar with that term, McGrath.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Was the fix in?
From: mousethief
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:03 PM

Me too. But I like the expression, nevertheless.

Alex
O..O
=o=