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Subject: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Lena Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:43 PM I heard the english version of the Breton song'" Son ar Chiste", and found the lyrics on the Digitrad (thanks,Elves,once again...).The information given there is a little bit coincise,I was wondering if anybody could tell me some more.Who (Not the name:the actual person,who was he,was he a performer,was he English or Irish or Scottish or American?!)was the man who adapted the lyrics,when?!And the poem used for the new lyrics, where does it come from and how old is it?!I imagined this version to be fairly old as well, and traditional,but apparently is not older than the first half of the 20th century...Thanks whoever helps. Lena |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: MK Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:51 PM I got the following : Ray Fisher married the words to the tune of the Breton "Son ar Chiste" (The Song of Cider) which was written in 1930 by a piper who is now a tramp on the streets of Paris. The story of the song is very close to that of the birth of Hercules, although there the timing of the trickery is, if anything, even more critical. from another site. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:51 AM The text in the DT is Martin Carthy's rewrite of the version sung by Ray Fisher (and the quote above is from the sleevenotes of his 1976 album, Crown of Horn), though the tune given with it here is the one sung by Anna Brown of Fife (Scotland) c.1783, and written down (perhaps not entirely accurately) by her nephew, Bob Scott. Ray Fisher's text is given in an old thread, Willie's Lady: Ray Fisher version There is a midi of the Breton tune, Son Ar Chiste, to which Ray Fisher set the song, at the Mudcat Midi pages: Click to play. Made from memory, so no guarantees as to its accuracy. There is some more background information in another thread: Help: Child # 6 Ray Fisher's version is a shortened and slightly re-written version of Anna Brown's set, which is the only full version known. Apparantly Professor Child (English and Scottish Popular Ballads) mentions a number of Danish variants of the story, but I don't have details at present. There is a reference at The Traditional Ballad Index: Willie's Lady [Child 6] but it doesn't really add much to the information we have here. For the benefit of anybody who doesn't know, Ray Fisher is a Scottish singer, (sister of Archie Fisher); Martin Carthy is English, though I think that his father was born in Ireland. I don't know the name of that Breton piper. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Lena Date: 12 Nov 00 - 08:59 AM Is that that important if Carthy's father was born in Ireland?!No,seriously,I'm beginning to find out now how sharp can be the cut between Irish folk people and English folk people... Thanks for the information,strangely the computer didn't give me any threads the first time,and when I got some threads out of the search,I had already posted this new one.So,sorry for taking space with a useless thread. Lena |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Anglo Date: 12 Nov 00 - 12:16 PM I'm not totally sure about the "Breton piper" attribution. Carthy says he got his information (cited above by Michael K.) from a "young Breton." Not wishing to be cynical, I remember however a young Englishman once assuring me that Bob Dylan wrote "House of the Rising Sun." The song "Ev Chistr 'ta, Laou" is sung by Kevin Conneff on the Chieftain's Celtic Wedding. They got their Breton material from Polig Monjarret, compiler of "Tonioù Breizh-Izel" an anthology of some 3,000 tunes - usually known as the big green book. In the introduction to that, in a discussion of Breton modes, he quotes a verse of this with the tune, as sung by Julien Gwernig in Scaër, September 1948. No mention of a composer or a piper. Unfortunately my notes from the Ray Fisher LP have gone AWOL, or I'd check on what she had to say as to where she learned the tune. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Susanne (skw) Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:29 PM Hamish Henderson, in his book 'Alias MacAlias', p. 84, dates the ballad (in its oral form) as long before the mid-seventeenth century. Apart form that I haven't found any helpful info. Playing the tune, I realised it has also been used for a different song, which was a fairly big hit for the Dutch band Bots (?) some years ago, and is still a very polular song on the German folk scene. The title is, I think 'Sieben Tage lang' (For seven days). I've no idea whether they'd know more about its origin. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Abby Sale Date: 12 Nov 00 - 08:35 PM Malcolm: For fie! For fie! - get thee to a Greigery. At least a Last Leaves. You will see a version that arguably entered the Robertson family before it did the Brown family. Greig read Child but Child never read Greig. Child thus missed out on a whole bunch of known stuff thereby. Belle's version also makes clear several nonsensely processed phrases in Brown - (Oh, like she never happened to notice a kid running around under her bed - it was a more likely a cat! Etc.) Elsewise, the summary & info you and Michael K. give is generally accepted. I always admired (and agreed with) Carthy's very high praise of Fisher in finding & using that tune. The fine, fine song had lain fallow for 200 years with no singable tune. If Greig's Belle Robertson had a tune, she (sadly) always refused to sing for Greig. But, if I understand the above aright, there's an error in suggesting that Brown's tune was given or sung in any of the above renditions - or any other place on Earth. Where you say it was recorded '(perhaps not entirely accurately) by her nephew, Bob Scott you likely greatly understate. He did not claim to be good at this --- he was only doing the best he could. This was the third time the text was recorded but the only time anyone ever ever tried the tune. It's in Bronson and even Bronson says it's impossible to be any representation of anything singable. Even if you try to fiddle a whole lot with that tune the best you get is extreme tedium. I've played it from Bronson & I very agree. I believe there was a real Breton piper as advertised - I've got a tiny bit of notes on him lying around somewhere. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 12 Nov 00 - 09:02 PM Abby: I wish I did have ready access to "Last Leaves"! I didn't mean to suggest that anyone ever recorded (except on paper) Anna Brown's tune, though it's not really as bad as people think; I've spent a bit of time with it, and it can be made to work, provided that one assumes it was very much a "bare bones" notation. Lena: It's completely irrelevant that Carthy's dad was born in Ireland, but you did ask about nationality...(and it's not a useless thread; please don't worry about that) Anglo: I'd be interested in any further information you might have. The tramp story never did sound terribly convincing, though the tune certainly was widely current in the mid-seventies; I first heard it played (on the guitar) by somebody on a train heading for Brussels from a Channel port (I forget which) well before I heard Carthy use it for "Willie's Lady"... Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Wolfgang Date: 13 Nov 00 - 04:27 AM Just a short addemdum to Susanne's reference to the Bots: The official title was 'Was wollen wir trinken (Sieben Tage lang)'. Looking at the score you realise that it is exactly the tune Martin Carthy uses for Willie's Lady. The Bots attribute it to a 'Breton folktune'. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Lena Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:20 AM Thanks everybody!
Anglo,I very much envy your knowledge on Breton matters ;)
It would have been fascinating if actually the ballad's marriage with the tune belonged to scottish or irish folk tradition since a LONG time before it actually does,as I thought in the beginning...It would have meant the survival of a tune through a huge slice of history in wich Breton celts and Britain celts went separate ways...ok,there goes the dreamer. (It makes me think:how old can a tune be,how long can a musical traditon last?!)(maybe I should start a thread about it...) |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Garry Gillard Date: 13 Nov 00 - 09:48 AM What Martin Carthy sings is here. Garry |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Abby Sale Date: 13 Nov 00 - 03:09 PM Malcolm: Yes, Last Leaves can be hard to get. I have a feeling only 12 copies were ever printed, famous as the book is. I finally got a copy from my local county library's Inter-Library Loan & copied it. If you don't have access to a copier, a bit of a chat with your local Kinko's or Office Depot manager should allow you to copy for 3¢ or 5¢ a page. Well worth it. One of my favorite treasures is Greig's several years' of articles (no tunes printed) as Folk-Song of the North-East - one of the wonderful reprints (1963) by Folklore Associates (mostly Goldstein.) All his comments & indexing is there. I've had this since first published but recently scored a copy for a friend on the online used book circuit. It was pretty easy - write & ask if you want some very good supplier URLs. But really, if you happen to have a surplus 1/2 year's salary just lying around, ask Greenhaus to order the full Greig~Duncan for you. It's much like buying a house - a bit of a bullet to bite but you'll be glad you did. After a while. I promise. Dick will get it for you at a good deal less than if you ordered direcctly from those sons of @#$%'s, Thin's in Edinburry. Wait a short bit, though - the 8th volume, the index has been announced but I don't think actually hit the shelves yet. Sid (Mrs. President Taylor) tells me not to hold my breath as Thin's often announces things years or even decades before they occur but I have faith that it will "shortly become available." I once waltzed right into Thin's, bought a lined notebook, paid for it and left the store all within two hours. I really have a lot of confidence in them from that experience. Thing is, Dick would combine your full order with the 8 or nine standing for the index and you'll save thousands of dollars in shipping costs & discounts. |
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Subject: a bit more bull From: Abby Sale Date: 13 Nov 00 - 03:38 PM Just for the cap, do go hear Ray sing it if you haven't. Much as I truly admire Carthy & own many of his records - this particular song never happened to strike me as interesting & I never paid much attention to his singing of it. One day the spouse was driving us through the Florida swamps and I was reading and sometimes reciting or singing stuff in the Oxford Book of ballads. Out popped this song & hit me for a total loop. I don't think that'd ever happened from a printed page (no tunes there) before - and especially when I had Carthy's version for years. I didn't even recognize it as the same song! Soon I picked up Ray's amazing record from Folk-Legacy (I've said before that people should be required to simply buy their entire catalog - kind of a record-a-month plan.) And then I knew that this was right. What a song! Her notes are very interesting on the whole song but the only reference to the tune is: I have set this magnificent ballad to the tune of a Breton drinking song - I've no idea what it's called. All the rest of the info on the tune came later on. Sorry I don't have any good Scots-Breton connection to offer but have a think at THE HOLLY BEARS A BERRY (SANS DAY CAROL). This very old song seems to celebrate a Breton saint. Maybe something for you. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Lena Date: 13 Nov 00 - 05:39 PM Sounds vaguely french(not particularly Breton,but french...) |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 13 Nov 00 - 06:38 PM Not even the University here in Sheffield has Last Leaves, but they do have Greig-Duncan 1-3, and Bronson, so that will just have to do me for now; besides, I'm still only partway through "collecting" Child! What I really must do, though, is pick up that Ray Fisher record; I've a couple of her others, and have seen her a couple of times, but never that particular song... Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Abby Sale Date: 13 Nov 00 - 07:46 PM Oh! I didn'r realize you was in Englishland. Well, never mind all that how-to-buy advice. Except that those products are great and may well be available in UK Inter-library or used book sources. Long's you's in Sheffield, maaybe you can advise. I keep seeing notes about the Sheffield Socialist Choir & their records & stuff. Do I want to buy them? I've never seen clips at CDNow or anything. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 13 Nov 00 - 10:00 PM I'm not much judge of that sort of music, but I've known a number of people who have been involved with the Choir over the years. There is a website: Sheffield Socialist Choir which has track listings of their recordings and some sound samples, together with a price list. (Roderick Douglas is not an immediate relation of mine, so far as I know!) |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Garry Gillard Date: 14 Nov 00 - 04:09 AM To go back to the kid under the bed. I was hoping this might happen to be explained in this thread. Perhaps it was (explained) in another? Garry |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Callie Date: 14 Nov 00 - 07:06 AM The goat beneath the bed is part of the spell, methinks. Callie |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: GUEST,xy@chaos-lounge.com Date: 14 Nov 00 - 07:28 AM Hi Lena, Could you please send me your email address so I can chat re:coming to Sydney. Cheers, Nigel |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Abby Sale Date: 14 Nov 00 - 08:04 AM OK. I found some of my notes I posted in 1994. That was when I was still gating through to internet from a private BBS. Bad memory - toad, not cat. Makes even more sense. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Msg#: 2 Date: 25 Oct 94 08:53:19 From: Abby Sale To: Uucp, 1:363/198.1 Subj: "Willie's Lady" ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ To: folktalk@leo.vsla.edu sg sg> One song, of which I am curious, was one about a king or prince named We don't know his station. Just that he was a son-of-a-witch. sg> to find out what the curse was and to undo it. Does anyone know this I've e-mailed both Fisher's version (slightly corrected) which I already Coupla comments on this outstanding ballad. Child reports it's sole So nobody sang it from 1783 until Ray Fisher married it to the modern Nevertheless, there's a partial version given in Greig's _Last Leaves_, This is fragmentary & it's basically the same as Child (A) but the We still don't know if the "Billy blin'" is a household brownie "Ye mak an image o the clay, A face o wax to it ye'll gie." The several charms used are still of the "binding" sort Willie kills the "ted" (ie, toad) that was beneath the lady's |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Anglo Date: 14 Nov 00 - 12:46 PM Just a note for anyone desperate for a copy of Last Leaves - there's one available at BookFinder.com for just over $80 US (I'm not quite _that_ desperate at the moment). Malcolm, I would have posted more if I knew anything else, but I already contributed my entire knowledge. I've been singing Martin's version of this song for years. Coming back to Breton/British links, this may rate another thread if anyone knows anything, but it seems to me I've seen Jabadaw, as a tune or a dance, in both Cornish and Breton contexts, though I wonder if the Cornish was a modern borrowing from the Breton as they have tried to establish the "Celticness" of Cornish culture with the reintroduction of the language and suchlike. |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: GUEST,Heather Date: 09 Aug 08 - 02:11 PM I know this thread is old, but in case someone seeking info comes across it, it's a Ted (toad, her familiar, caged) beneath the Bed, not a kid or a cat. For one thing, it rhymes :-) For another, I found that (ted = toad) on another site about Willie's Lady. Heather in Bremerton |
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Subject: RE: Willie's Lady:more info? From: Nerd Date: 09 Aug 08 - 03:18 PM Yes, Abby said as much, two posts (and eight years) ago... |
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