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Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse
DigiTrad:
GARTAN MOTHER'S LULLABY
Related threads:
The Gartan Mother's Lullaby (sheet music) (14)
Garton Mother's Lullaby (14)
Chords Req: garten mothers lullaby (20)
Gartan area of Donegal (7)
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE GARTAN MOTHER'S LULLABY From: Alice Date: 03 Dec 00 - 02:51 PM I received this third verse too late to include in the corrections/additional info in the DT on THE GARTAN MOTHER'S LULLABY, but here it is. Sent to me by John McLaughlin, from the first published version in 1904 in "The Songs of Uladh [Ulster]" by Herbert Hughes and Joseph Campbell.
THE GARTAN MOTHER'S LULLABY Tune collected in Donegal by Herbert Hughes, lyrics by Joseph Campbell
Sleep O babe, for the red bee hums the silent twilight's fall
Dusk is drawn and the Green Man's thorn is wreathed in rings of fog
Faintly sweet doth the chapel bell, ring o'er the valley dim Alice Flynn
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Wavestar Date: 03 Dec 00 - 02:56 PM How lovely. Where do I find a tune for that? -J |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 03 Dec 00 - 03:19 PM Alice, Thanks for a great 3rd verse. I always felt the lullaby was not long enough. I have stayed near Gartan on many occasions (Church Hill, Donegal), and have never heard this 3rd verse. One of my relatives owns some property there and the property line extends into the lake, so he in fact owns part of Gartan lake, It's a beautiful spot, as is all of Donegal. When I sing the song to my grandaughter it really means something to me. Later on when she is older she will realize that one of her relatives owns part of the lake in the song. Thanks again, |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 03 Dec 00 - 03:26 PM Jimmy C, that is so cool. The John McLaughlin who sent me the third verse was responding to a page on my website that I dedicate to this song and information about it. John is from Donegal, too.
This is my favorite song to perform. It never fails to please. I'm very excited to have this third verse.
Wavestar, I think there is a midi in the database along with lyrics. I sent Joe Offer an update to the version in the database explaining some of history of the song. Unfortunately, I didn't have this third verse at the time. Alice
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 03 Dec 00 - 04:05 PM Beautiful new verse, Alice! Who/what is Tearmann, do you know? BTW I want to thank you for the extensive research on your web page about the meanings of the words; my mom's women's chorus performed it last season and they did some web research and found your page! I love this song and may add it to next season's music. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 03 Dec 00 - 04:36 PM This is from an Irish language webpage click here: (nice to have the pronunciation, too).
Word: tearmann (CHAR-uh-muhn) [t'aer@m@n]
Meaning: tearmann = sanctuary, refuge Usage:
tearmann éan (... AY-uhn) [... e:n] = bird sanctuary
History: Old Irish "termonn" (church land affording right of sanctuary;refuge) was borrowed from Latin "terminus" (limit, boundary), which camefrom Indo-European *ter-men- (boundary marker), from the base *ter- (peg,post, marker). The obvious cognate in Engish is "terminus".
Scottish Gaelic: tèarmann |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 03 Dec 00 - 11:50 PM Alice/Animaterra. There are a few words in the song that are difficult to relate to a lullaby. I suspect they may have a hidden meaning so I have sent a request to my relative to look for some local folklore books that may explain them. From my knowledge of the Irish language I came up with the following possible explanations. If and when I get the correct meaning I will surely let you know.
Aoibheall - (aoibheall means gamboling or it could have something to do with Aoibh = smile ?
Green Man's Thorn - Could be a hill, mountain or place ?
Siabhra ? - I know that siabhra means delusion but not clear about the meaning of siabhra in the song ?
Starry Bog - may be the sky Tearman ?( tearman = asylum/ reservation or sanctuary ) Would appreciate any other explanations . Whatever the meaning, this is one beautiful lullaby.
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 04 Dec 00 - 10:47 AM Jimmy C., I have explanations of the names and other words in the song at this page:click here The Green Man is another mythical character. Siabhra (Sheevra) are very mischievous, trouble making little people. Tearmann I already defined if you look earlier in this thread.
"The most famous Banshee of ancient times was that attached to the kingly house of O'Brien, Aibhill, who haunted the rock of Craglea above Killaloe, near the old palace of Kincora. In A.D. 1014 was fought the battle of Clontarf, from which the aged king, Brian Boru, knew that he would never come away alive, for the previous night Aibhill had appeared to him to tell him of his impending fate." The Green Man is another mythical character. Siabhra (Sheevra) are very mischievous, trouble making little people. Tearmann I already defined if you look earlier in this thread.
John McLaughlin sent me more information about the Green Man when he emailed the third verse:
AOIBHEALL OF CARRAIGH-LIATH
Commonly known as "Aoibhinn the Beautiful" is queen of the northern fairies, as Cliodhna of Tonn-Cliodhna is queen of the southern. For further information on this interesting lady see Douglas Hyde's "Literary History of Ireland", also, Dr Joyce's "Irish Names of Places".
THE GREEN MAN
Fear-glas is own brother to the Scottish Bodach-Glas, or Fetch. They say if you see him in the morning, "no ill follows", but if at night, death or some other terrible misfortune will surely overtake you. He is sometimes called Fear-Liath, or the Grey Man. There is a curious fissure in the cliff-face near Beann--mor (Fair Head) in the Co[unty] Aondruim [Antrim]. It is called Cosan-fhir-liath i.e. the Grey Man's Path and the fisher people dwelling about these coasts tell some wonderful stories of the Genius that is supposed to make it his highway to the sea in his daily journeys from Cuil-na-locha inland. Mrs. S.C. Hall has recorded a typical one. She writes;-
"The Grey Man's path most riveted our attention. 'Did you ever see the Grey Man?' we inquired of a boatman. 'God forbid it's not that sort I'd be liking to see. The likes of him only comes to the place for trouble. I heard say, before the great ship was wrecked off Port-na-Spania, he was known to have decoyed the vessel in and that when he 'ticed it on the rocks he flitted away to his own berth up there and clapped his hands, and the echo of that clap pitched yon rock out to sea from the headland, as you would pitch a marble.'
"And was he never seen since"?
'It was a year or two before the troubles that my father, dodging about in his boat, thinking to run to Baile-Mairge, for it was winter time, saw it between him and the setting sun, like a wreath of smoke passing over the water. As it drew near the coast it grew into the shape of a giant, folded in his cloak from head to foot. Then it went up the cliff and stopped where that fallen pillar rests. Above the path, there, it made a pause and turning round spread its arms forward either for a blessing or a curse. Too well it was proved to be a curse', added the boatman; and then he went on to tell of the ruin of the neighbouring colliery by the fall of part of the cliff above its works. 'And who knows' says he in conclusion, 'what might happen if the Grey man comes to pay us another visit?' The Fear-liath is cousin-once-removed to that gruesome joker Fear-Dearg [the Red Man], and some distant relation of Fear-Gorta, the Man of Hunger, or Famine Spirit:- "The Brown Man o' the moor, that stays
Beneath the heather-bell"
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All the best, as we say here,
John McLaughlin
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I invited John to join Mudcat, and he has attempted to get in when the site was busy. I am hoping he becomes a member and participates in the discussion. Alice Flynn
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,Ian M. Date: 04 Dec 00 - 12:01 PM When I was in Dunfanaghy in 1975 there was a John McLaughlin sang and played the accordion in the pub at night. If your correspondent is the same person I would like to thank him for the pleasure he gave us that summer. The song has been recorded by the Dubliners and the Corries amongst others. Good Luck. Ian M. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 04 Dec 00 - 12:48 PM Still hoping John will join and introduce himself... I don't know if he is the same John, Ian M. He says, "I retired from my job as a librarian a few years ago and spend a lot of my time researching this sort of stuff. I've loved Irish music since the day I was born, it's in my blood." He lives in Scotland now. He is new to the internet, but it seems to me like he would fit right in here. Alice Flynn
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 04 Dec 00 - 01:13 PM Alice, Thanks a lot. Looking for ward to having John join us, he would be a great addition. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: harpmolly Date: 04 Dec 00 - 03:54 PM Oooh! I love this song. I heard it first, oddly enough, on a random children's song treasury cassette I found at a thrift store for about fifty cents *grin*. The song was sung by Meryl Streep, and quite hauntingly, too. For the most part, the tape wasn't quite so impressive (except for a hilarious rendition of "Cushie Butterfield" sung by Sting in some sort of really thick brogue or cockney. It's classic ;) Can anyone tell me the pronunciation of "A leanbhan O"? Meryl just sings, "And lyin' there, O, my child...". I've seen it written out as "A lyin van O", but I don't know if that's correct. Help much appreciated--I'd really like to put this song on my demo tape, if it ever gets made *grin* P.S. I'm trying line breaks. I don't know what I'm doing, so please forgive any weird formatting... Moll |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 04 Dec 00 - 04:28 PM I love, love, LOVE this place! Thank you, Alice, for more wonderful info on one of my favorite songs. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 04 Dec 00 - 05:49 PM Mollificent,
"A leanbhan O"? would be pronounced A LAN VAN OH leanbh = child |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Snuffy Date: 04 Dec 00 - 07:18 PM a hilarious rendition of "Cushie Butterfield" sung by Sting in some sort of really thick brogue or cockney.?? Cushie Butterfield is a Geordie song from Tyneside, and that's where Sting comes from. I suppose if you've never heard Geordie before it can sound strange, but brogue or Cockney??? Do me a favour! Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 04 Dec 00 - 10:26 PM Alice, Just got an e-mail from my Gartan relative. Tearman does mean refuge etc as posted above but there is a town by the name of Termon (Tearman) which is about 3 miles from Gartan so I imagine that "Tearmann's peasant voices swell" comes from the people in the village singing or chanting, maybe for some ancient festival ?. What do you think ?. He will get info on the other words but I don't imagine they will be any different from what you have listed. I did not think this lullaby was so popular - even Meryl Streep sings it !!!! |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 04 Dec 00 - 11:04 PM Thanks, Jimmy C. I should have posted more of John's email that I got as a follow up today.
quote: "You're welcome to use any info from me, it's all in the public domain anyway.
Did you know that Gartan means "little garden", Tearmann (Termon in English), a village a few miles north of Lough Gartan, means "sanctuary" (or church) land. (I'm not an Irish speaker, this info is from ref books). Can you get the 1:50,000 Irish Ordnance Survey maps over there? If so the relevant area is covered by Sheet 6 (Letterkenny). I'm not sure if the Starry Boig is an actual or imaginary place name. Funny thing is that Campbell never visted Donegal until years after he wrote Gartan. Did you know that he lectured at Fordham Uni (NY) for ten years in the 20s and 30s? Gartan was the birthplace of St Columba and was the scene of a terrible eviction in 1861 when hundreds were thrown off the Derryveagh Estate and emigrated to Australia with money raised from a public appeal as a result of the outcry. I retired from my job as a librarian a few years ago and spend a lot of my time researching this sort of stuff. I've loved Irish music since the day I was born, it's in my blood......I've got the Mary O'Hara album with Gartan. Have you heard Barbara Mullen's version? Not in the same technical class as Mary but quite spellbinding in it's own way. It's on a double CD- "Irish Cream, the Great Singers & Songs of Ireland, 1913-1955". EMI number 7243 8 32657 2 5. Issued in 1995. A wonderful collection......"
Still waiting to see if John joins us. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: harpmolly Date: 05 Dec 00 - 11:41 AM Snuffy, my apologies! ;) I didn't mean that it *was* specifically a brogue or cockney, but I couldn't identify the accent, and those terms are the closest I could come for the sort of dialect I was looking for. Thanks for setting me straight...and sorry for setting your teeth on edge (I know that feeling well!) Anyway, it's a hilarious song. :) Molly |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: harpmolly Date: 05 Dec 00 - 11:43 AM P.S. Sorry for thread creep, too *g* |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 05 Dec 00 - 12:05 PM Alice, Thanks for the info. Please, Please. Please get this guy John on to the Mudact as soon as possible. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Snuffy Date: 05 Dec 00 - 07:00 PM Molli I didn't mean to snap your head off - things come out harsher in print than you mean. "Do me a favour" is Cockney, and was meant to convey that my comment was humorous. Guess I'll have to start using **BG** and :) in future. Wassail! V |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 05 Dec 00 - 11:01 PM Another email from John McLaughlin with more information this time about Herbert Hughes and Joseph Campbell.
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Dear Alice
I'm delighted at folk are responding to the third verse, it's just amazing what's going on out there. You may find the following interesting meantime.
Herbert Hughes (1882-1937) was a native of Belfast and a classically educated musician, at the Royal College in London. He was a child progidy, being chief church organist at eight years of age. He provided the music for Star of the County Down and She Moved through the Fair (lyrics by Padraic Colum, 1881-1972). At age 20 he co-founded the Irish Folksong Society.
Joseph Campbell (1879-1944) came from a fairly well to do Belfast family of road builders but he gave it all up to be a poet. He had a mystical nature (as evident in Gartan). In 1906 he wrote, "all things on earth to me are known, for I have the gift of the Murrain stone" ( a "magic" hollow stone from which cattle would be made to drink in the hope of preventing them catching the deadly disease, murrain). The folks might like these verses by him,
The Orangeman
Priests
He was an ardent republican but only worked as a sort of medical orderly in Dublin during the 1916 Rising. During the Civil War (1923) he was arrested and interned for 18 months. The injustice (he hadn't partook in the fighting, only supporting the Republicans verbally) and harsh prison regime sickened him of Irish politics and he emigrated to NY in 1925, earning a living teaching Irish lit and culture at Fordham Univ. He wrote hundreds of poems and a number of plays but success on the grand scale eluded him He spent the last five years of his life living quietly in the Wicklow Hills. His editor Austin Clarke (himself a major poet, of course) wrote "In the spring of 1944 his nearest neighbours in the glen noticed that no turf smoke was coming from the chimney and became alarmed. The poet was found dead where he had falled across the hearth stone". As I (John McLaughlin) have written elsewhere "Appropriately the last sounds Joseph Campbell heard were those that he loved and which had helped inspire one of his best known songs",
The crickets sing you lullably, beside the dying fire.....
John
PS I'm not the guy who sang in a Donegal pub in 1975. I'm tone deaf and only sing when no one else is within earshot. I'm from the townland of Crockglass in Inishowen. My surname is 3rd most common in Donegal and 20th in Ireland so there are a lot of us about! |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST Date: 03 Feb 01 - 04:23 PM Wow! Magic. I'm just finding my way around; followed up Leila 'women's music request, moved on to Animatera, ended up here. I love this song, so can now add the new verse. Thanks, all |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Susan-Marie Date: 03 Feb 01 - 09:46 PM Just this evening I decided to add this song to our band's play list for St pat's day, and here is a thread on it revived by a guest so I don't have to search for it. Truly amazing. I do have a question for fans of this song - does the third verse sound a tad too Christian as compared to the first two? The first two verses are about nature and fairies and a ban-shee....and then the third one brings in a chapel and hymns. It just seems weird, like the song originally had only the first two verses and then someone decided it had to have a Christian verse in order to make it acceptable. The same thing happens with "Lagan Love" - two verses of nature stuff and then a third verse about chasteness. Does anyone else think it's strange? |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Noreen Date: 03 Feb 01 - 11:30 PM Susan-Marie, I agree with your thoughts. Much as I congratulate you, Alice, on your research, this lovely song only ever had two verses whenever I heard it, and I don't think this third verse quite 'fits'. Sorry. Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:25 AM The lyrics of both Lagan Love and Gartan Mother's Lullaby were written by Joseph Campbell. There is nothing inconsistent in the lyrics. Nature motifs and mythological references do not equal non-Christian. I love singing the song now in its complete form. Even Mary O'Hara, who recorded this song, notes that she loved the writings of Tolkein so much that she named her home Rivendell... and she was a devout Catholic, at one time a cloistered nun. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: sophocleese Date: 04 Feb 01 - 12:45 AM Nifty. I didn't particularly like the third verse when I first read it here but wasn't sure if that was because of the verse itself or because it was unfamiliar. I was and am also a little uncomfortable with the Christian references, largely because there is no sign of them in the first two verses. Perhaps the third verse has been dropped by many singers because they also think that it doesn't quite work and has the feel of an afterthought; even if the afterthought was that of the original writer. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 04 Feb 01 - 01:42 AM I like the third verse and only wish there was a 4th, This is a beautiful lullaby, thats all, It would be very difficult for any Irish song from that region not to have spiritual connections as religion was a major part of their lives. The idea of an added verse with christian overtones just to make it acceptable is nonsense. There are hundreds of songs all over the place that are accepted and have no christian overtones at all. If you are not comfortable with the third verse then don't sing it. I find it strange for people to feel ok singing about fairies, goblins and banshees etc and things that don't exist but object to a reference to a hymn or a chapel bell ?. Hymns do exist, chapel bells do ring out especially in a place called Church Hill where there are two churches almost opposite each other. The reason most singers only sing 2 verses is because that it all they knew. Thanks to Alice and her indepth research we now have 3 verses. Sing all 3 or only 2 take your choice, I will sing all 3. Thanks Alice. slainte |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:54 AM Yes! My chorus is thrilled to be singing it with the new verse! I'm pointing them to your web page, Alice, so be ready! |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: InOBU Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:20 AM I first heard this from Mary Bergan's sister, and the great Joe McKenna's equally great wife, Antonette McKenna. It was a great day when I got the words off a friend, and thanks for the new verce. Larry |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: sophocleese Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:31 AM I'll wade back in here again. First off I love the tune, like Jimmy C I wish there was another verse to sing. I sang the first two verses to my kids and I still sing it to them at times. I was delighted to read that there was another verse and then I was disappointed when I read the third verse. It may be unfamiliarity with it, it may be because of the reference to chapel bells and lambs, or it may simply be that the third verse is not as wild as the previous two. The dying fire and the cricket can be heard and felt in many places where chapel bells do not ring. Perhaps my discomfort with the third verse just has to do with this limiting of its options. I will likely learn the third verse anyway simply to find out if my discomfort with it dies away with greater familiarity, any excuse to sing more of it. But I do wonder why so many of us knew only two verses; why is the third verse not so well known? An editing decision years ago, repeated in reprints (and why did the editor cut that verse) or because others didn't like the third verse as well, forgot it and didn't pass it on? When all is said and done it is a lovely tune. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: sophocleese Date: 04 Feb 01 - 10:44 AM I meant to add as well that uncomfortable as I am with the verse I'm still grateful that Alice found it. Thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST Date: 04 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM My mother was as lief to sing "Baby wants the moon to play with" as "There is a green Hill far away" as a lullaby, and although I agree those are separate songs,the mix of mystical/religious doesn't jar with me. Most "Christian" festivities, including many of those we've recently celebrated, are Pagan in origin,surely? Once more, thanks, Alice; a fascinating thread, this. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 04 Feb 01 - 04:18 PM My page on this song is updated now. I added information provided to me by John McLoughlin, reorganized the page, and added another illustration. Regarding the interest in using elements of mythology and nature, I am surprised that anyone would think they would exclude references to Christianity, Judaism, or any other religion in the same song. Here is something John McLoughlin wrote to me about the author of these lyrics, Joseph Campbell: ===== Joseph Campbell (1879-1944) came from a fairly well to do Belfast family of road builders but he gave it all up to be a poet. He had a mystical nature (as evident in Gartan). In 1906 he wrote, "all things on earth to me are known, for I have the gift of the Murrain stone" ( a "magic" hollow stone from which cattle would be made to drink in the hope of preventing them catching the deadly disease, murrain).
The song was first published in 1904 in "The Songs of Uladh [Ulster]" by Herbert Hughes and Joseph Campbell. Both were from Belfast, Hughes being a Protestant (Methodist) and Campbell a Catholic. Hughes collected the trad melody in Donegal (of which I am a native) the previous year and Campbell wrote the lyrics. Myth, fantasy, and nature themes can be used and appreciated by Christians just as much as by anyone else. After all, C. S. Lewis, the Christian apologist, wrote the Chronicles Of Narnia. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,Lorraine Date: 04 Feb 01 - 06:48 PM Thank you Alice for the new verse. I'll have to play with it for a while to see if it becomes mine. The song has long been one of my favorites. Thanks again Lorraine |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 04 Feb 01 - 08:44 PM By the way, here again is the link to my page on this song, now updated: |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: sophocleese Date: 04 Feb 01 - 09:14 PM Christian images can and are often mixed very well with other images, nature, pagan whatever. In the case of this third verse though there has been no mixing of the overtly Christian before it suddenly shows up in the third verse; so it feels more added than blended. That's the surprise and part of the discomfort. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:37 AM But considering the source, it's pretty understandable. A gentleman in 1904 is writing a lullabye. He sets the scene of mystery and ancient Irish beings. He's evoking the beauty, mystery, and awe of Lough Gartan. But it's a lullabye, which means that by the end of the song the child should be lulled. He's also from a time and place where there's a dominant faith perspective- Christian. So he concludes the song with a peaceful, lulling scene that brings the song 'round to the dominant world view. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Susan-Marie Date: 05 Feb 01 - 02:05 PM I've enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts about this, and as I suspected, a lot depends on context. ALice is absolutely right that the author probably saw no contradiction between fairies and angels, because his culture was full of both. I, however, am an American, a recovering ex-Catholic, and tentative pagan, so for me the relms of Christianity and fairies are very separate. If I ever manage to integrate the various pieces of my life, I may feel more comfortable with the third verse. Then again, I may still agree with sophocleese, that it feels like an afterthought. In the meantime, I want to sing the two verses I do like in both English and gaelic. Can anyone point me to a recording of it in gaelic? I have gaelic lyrics from a pennywhistle book, and if I don't see them elsewhere in the forum or on ALice's page, I'll post them. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 05 Feb 01 - 03:18 PM Joseph Campbell wrote the lyrics (poem) in English. If there are Gaelic lyrics, someone else created them or translated the poem. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Susan-Marie Date: 05 Feb 01 - 04:15 PM That's what I figured. I'll post the gaelic lyrics tomorrow and maybe some gaelic speaker can tell us if it's a decent set of lyrics or not. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 05 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM On second thought, since Campbell was part of the "Irish Revival" period, and for a time changed his name to a gaelicized form, he may have written a Gaelic translation of the poem. Here is what John McLoughlin wrote to me when he first sent the third verse: Hughes collected the trad melody in Donegal (of which I am a native) the previous year and Campbell wrote the lyrics. His other best known song is of course "My Lagan Love". He dropped the Irish form of his name after hearing someone call him Sam McCatwail !! |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 06 Feb 01 - 01:50 AM Susan-Marie, are your Irish language lyrics the same as the ones I posted at the Gartan sheet music thread? I immediately thought they had an inauthentic, modern ring to them. Annraoi, who would be more of an expert in these matters, also thinks they are a quite recent translation. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Susan-Marie Date: 07 Feb 01 - 02:52 PM Yes, Phillip, those are the same gaelic lyrics I have from "Whistle and Sing" book 2 published by Ashardan, N. Ireland. They do not list an author for the song, nor the english lyrics. How funny! I'm sure Campbell is chuckling in his grave. Can you explain to a non-gaelic speaker why they seemed inauthentic?
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Jimmy C Date: 07 Feb 01 - 11:43 PM Susan-Marie - The producer of Whistle and Sing book 2 "Eamonn Jordan' is a friend of mine. I do not not think that he has e-mail yet but I will know soon. I plan to be in Ireland in May for 2 weeks only. If I get a chance I will ask him where he got the irish words for this song. He lives up in the wilds of Donegal so I may not get to visit him, However I will certainly visit the McIvors. Their twin daughters Aislinn and Shauna are my nieces,they did the graphics and music compositing for the books. if all else fails I will e-mail Mary and Eugene before I go, they can phone Eamonn, hopefully they will have an answer before I arrive. BTW. Mary McIvor's brother owns part of Gartan Lake. I am married to their sister, He is the one that I told Alice about. I honestly think that the song was first written in English. usually whan you translate from Irish to English the flow of words etc is not as fluid as the english wording of this song, but I may be wrong. slan Jimmy |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Big Mick Date: 10 Feb 01 - 01:25 PM Alice.........as I said in the other thread, you are one of the greatest assets in the Mudcat. I have known of this song for years, but have been fascinated by your discussion of it. While my family emigrated out of Galway, they actually came from Raphoe in Donegal. This song is a wonderful link and I am pleased as I can be to have the third verse. Great job............and welcome Big Tim a.k.a. John. All the best, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 05 Aug 01 - 11:01 AM I moved my website. Here is an updated link.The Gartan Mother's Lullaby |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 05 Aug 01 - 05:47 PM Thanks for the update, Alice! |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,Mickey Date: 15 Nov 03 - 04:15 PM I wonder why everyone dismisses the Irish version so easily. I would suppose that there was some Irish language text to the air before the English ones were written. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,Tom Mac Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:32 PM Interesting also that the Gaelic verses given correspond to the first two of the English one. What might this mean for the validity of the third verse? |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 15 Nov 03 - 07:50 PM I expect it means that the translator into Gaelic of the first two verses of Campbell's poem was unaware, as a good many people are, that there is a third. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,Mickey Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:22 AM I think we are here again at the chicken and egg stage without even being able to decide whether the English or Irish verses are respectively chicken or egg. I expect that there were words in Irish to the tune before Campbell composed his verses to it. Whether those words are the same as the Irish version given on this site is another question and would require specific research. Does anyone know for instance the earliest source of the Irish language text? As a parallel, we might think of the Seoithín Seo lullaby discussed under a different thread here - also given under the title Mullach an tSí to avoid confusion with other Seoithíní. The commonly used Irish text to that was written by Tomás Ó Ceallaigh (and subsequently translated into English). However there were words to the tune before that (possibly changing every time the song was sung) and two versions are given in Amhráin Mhaighe Seola. What Pádraigín Ní Uallacháin seems to have done (although this is not stated in her notes and there might be an independent source) is to put the uiseo, uiseo vocables from one version into what was Tomás Ó Ceallaigh's verses. I'd imagine the Uiseo, uiseo version (given to Mrs Costello by Micheál Breathnach) is a witness to the way in which the lullaby was sung before Ó Ceallaigh supplied his verses. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Alice Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:21 AM This thread is so old that my site has moved once again since the last link update: THE GARTAN MOTHER'S LULLABY http://my.montana.net/aliceflynn/gartan.html |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,An Púca Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:44 PM Alice - don't worry, I actually found this site through yours and not the other way around. Mickey, Tom and Malcolm - I have actually done some checking on the Irish version given in the other thread and while the first one does compare with Campbell's first verse, the second does not. I do have an Irish text corresponding to Campbell's second verse, however, in an old school book. The text which will make our discussion properly relevant to the title of the thread - another verse - is as follows: Tá an dubhach dá shíneadh 's fáinní ceo Ar dhraighneán an fhíoghair ghlais thuas Seolfaidh síodhbhra a bhád go ló Ar an riascach lonnrach úd; A leinbhín ó, tá an ghealach bhán Go drúcht-fhliuch ag sileadh na ndeor Mar chluineann an suantraighe siamsach sámh Chugat-sa a chanaim, a stór. If this is a translation, it must be commended. It not only manages to give everything that is in Campbell's verse, but also includes alliteration and other devices to be expected in Irish poetic composition. The book unfortunately does not give a date of publication but it is in the old Gaelic type and as some of you will know from the spelling, predates the introduction of the Caighdeán and standardised orthography. It wouldn't however predate Herbert Hughes' and Campbell's publications as it seems to have been published with the imprimatur of the Irish Department of Education which wouldn't have happened before Independence. Having given this verse, the site now contains an Irish version corresponding to the first two of Campbell's verses. The other Irish language verse given in the other thread doesn't however correspond to any of Campbell's verses, containing none of his references apart from a coincidental occurrence of angels where Campbell has angel-dreams. So in keeping with the thread title, we have another other verse - four in total. Its origins may be in the realms of eggs and chickens alright, but it might be a duck-egg or a goose-egg. It is definitely not of the same quality of composition as the other two Irish verses. For the sake of completeness, I'll give the text of the first verse from the old school book too as, in some aspects, it improves the text given in the other thread on this site: Codail a leinbh le crónán na mbeach Tráthnóna ciúin tá ann Sí Aoibheall a thagann ó'n liath-chreig aird An tír fá chlúid do bhádhadh A leinbhín ó, mo chuid den tsaoghal Is tusa dúil mo chléibh, Ó canann an creagar an suantraighe séimh Le hais na teine tréith. It seems to me that the greatest argument in favour of Campbell's being the original lies in his consistent rhyming scheme, where he has end-rhyme between every second line in groups of four lines. The reason I say the above text is an improvement on the other from some aspects, is that it might be argued that the older dative case "aird" would rhyme with "mbeach" whereas "ard" might not. While "séimh" instead of "sámh" at the end of line 7 could be argued to be another improvement ("séimh" can rhyme with "saoghal" ), there are counter arguments to that one. 1) It means that the same end-rhyme is used for four consecutive lines; 2) the local Donegal pronunciation of "saoghal" would not rhyme with "séimh", thereby making this a more "learned" composition (the pronunciation required for the rhyme does exist however in many other songs and the word is so pronounced in song for that reason by singers who would pronounce it differently in speech). |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,Tom Mac Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:12 PM Mickey could of course be right about there being an Irish text before Campbell wrote the English version, but I doubt if it is the extant Irish language text. In the Herbert Hughes book Songs of Uladh he has written the following note: "I got this air from Cáit Ní Dhubhthaigh who sang it to me. She heard it at a fair in Leitir-Canadhnain when she was a child. It was sung to a ballad now forgotten." |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,An Púca Date: 16 Nov 03 - 04:32 PM This is interesting. Does anyone know of any notes in the other Hughes publications (Irish Country Songs)? And does Nancy Calthorpe give any indication of her source? Or Mary O'Hara for that matter? |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:15 PM No notes are given in Irish County Songs (I, 1909, 74-7) beyond "Words by Seosamh McCathmhaoil" and "County Donegal", the latter relating to the tune, of course. This was while Campbell was still affecting the Gaelic spelling of his name referred to earlier. There is a general tendency to assume that songs written to traditional tunes by late 19th and early 20th century Irish poets in particular "must" have Gaelic language antecedents, but this is not necessarily the case. Equally, there is a tendency to assume that Gaelic verses "must" be older than verses made in English, but this, too is not necessarily so; sometimes it can be demonstrated, but often it is no more than wishful thinking. Until any Gaelic text can be shown at the very least to be earlier than 1904 (see first post in this thread), we have to assume that Campbell's text is the original. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,An Púca Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:08 PM I agree totally that the Campbell words in English are most likely the original of the two versions extant and that the Irish text is the translation. Nonetheless there is much to be admired in the work of the anonymous translator who has produced a song of similar quality to Campbell's, worthy of the same praise given to the English languge text above. Extrinsic factors, including some of the roots of the "wishful thinking" to which Malcolm Douglas refers, causes a different judgement of the intrinsic value of the Irish version. The difference is in their contexts. The romantic, Celtic twilight atmosphere of the Campbell words and the conscious composition of them are totally acceptable in English and in the context of similar songs of that time. In the case of the Irish words, the similar atmosphere and the conscious nature of the work is felt to be artificial in contrast with songs which were more in keeping with the traditions of the literature of that language. Further wishful thinking causes people to think (recte wish) that all of this literature came from the "folk" rather than from the conscious work of an author (however good or bad she/he might be). In my opinion, the anonymous translator has performed his/her task brilliantly, given that the text is not prose and not merely metrical but must be able to be sung. Possibly the greatest review the Irish translator could receive is this: if (hypothetically) his/her's were the original, Campbell would be due the same review. In saying that, I must make clear that I do not consider the second verse given from the Calthorpe book to be the work of the same translator (nor indeed a translation at all). It has a looser rhyming scheme and is derivative of other lullaby texts rather than of an imaginative composition such as Campbell's. Malcolm might however join me in lamenting the probable loss of the words Cáit Ní Dhubhthaigh heard to the same air on a fair-day in Letterkenny. He should be assured that I would be willing to dismiss it as drivel, if it were such, no matter what language it was in. On the subject of Seosamh Mac Cathmhaoil, didn't Herbert Hughes also go under an Irish pen-name during some of those years - something more elaborate like Pádraig Mac Aodha O Néill? And Campbell's brother supplied illustrations under the guise Seaghan Mac Cathmhaoil. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:53 PM So much of value was lost because the early, "antiquarian" collectors were in the main interested only in texts and so ignored the tunes to which they were sung; and because the collectors of the later 19th and early 20th centuries were all-out for the melodies and frequently neglected to note more than a snatch of the words. Of course, this was often inadvertent (a tune may remain in the memory when you get home, but without a notebook, what is to become of the song it went with?) but this has left us rather in the dark a lot of the time, particularly as, even when material was published, it so often appeared with texts extensively (or entirely) re-written, and lacking vital information which the collectors or editors possessed, but failed to mention. Some of this can be recovered from such MS collections as survive and are accessible, but much is lost. That general observation applies equally to Britain and to Ireland, I think. Further comment was made on the various pen-names used by Hughes and his friends in an earlier discussion, Lagan Love. See particularly John Moulden's remarks. |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: Big Tim Date: 17 Nov 03 - 11:33 AM On the title page of "Songs of Uladh" it is stated " collected and arranged by Padraig mac Aodh o Neill [Herbert Hughes], with words by Seosamh mac Cathmhaoil [Joseph Campbell], and designs by Seaghan mac Cathmhaoil [John Campbell]". John Patrick Campbell (1883-1962)was, like his brother, born in Belfast and was trained as an artist at the Belfast School of Art. From 1911 onwards he spent much of his life in America where his greatest achievement in the memories of those who knew him there, was an Irish pageant produced in the Armory, New York. (From Kate Newmann's "Dictionary of Ulster Biography"). |
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Subject: RE: Gartan Mother's Lullaby - another verse From: GUEST,jo Date: 01 Mar 08 - 01:37 PM Can anyone give me a copy/sell me EMI CD 7243 8 32657 2 5 Irish Cream Great Singers 1913-1955 can't get this anyhwere??? |
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