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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: Bob Bolton Date: 26 Sep 12 - 09:33 PM G'day GUEST 26 Sepr 12 - 03.33, That versiion seems to be an interesting American "re-treading" of the remembered (... non-Victorian London ...) chorus - with new verses different from the circa 1850s street songsheet that spread all over the countries of the mid 19th century gold-rushes. Here, in Australia, it seems, mostly, to have been nostalgically remembered only as the 'romantic chorus' ... and danced widely as a waltz tune! Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: GUEST Date: 26 Sep 12 - 03:33 PM I have the little sheet music to A Starry Night for a Ramble, Kisss and Never Tell by Samuel Bagnall |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 23 Sep 11 - 09:38 AM SORRY BOB, Samuel Bagnal did not die before he was born, as I stated above. He actually died in 1855. Chers, ROY |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:12 PM Greetings Bob, Very good to hear from you. Unfortunately I don't now have the notes I made at the time of recording. I can't even remember the man's name. But I do recall that it was in 1968, not 'early 1960's' as I quoted in my other posting. My bloke was elderly, but perhaps not quite as old as I thought at the time, me being in my 30's then. My guess is that he would be around 65 The song was written by Samuel Bagnal, 1836 - 1655. In 1904 it was recorded by the Haydn Quartet, in Philadelphia, for the Victor label. The Haydn(pronounced 'Hayden') Quartet was a popular group of the time, singing in what we might now call 'Barbershop style.' II hope this is of some use to you.All the bes, ROY |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: Bob Bolton Date: 22 Sep 11 - 12:04 AM G'day Burl, Would you have any 'dating' for your informant's "... dances in his youth ..."? Since the song was a long time favourite waltz tune - out here in Australia - I can well imagine it being just as popular in Britain ... just on its musical merits. In (Colonial) Australia, it had the additional grabber of being a nostalgic memory of London (either home ... or departure point ... for many of those who came freely to Australia - lured by the chance of gold. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: RoyH (Burl) Date: 14 Sep 11 - 08:27 AM Sometime in the early 1960's I collected a version of this from an elderly man in Ashbourne, Derbyshire. He told me what a popular tune it had been at dances in his youth. I recorded him singing it on a 12inch reel to reel machine, along with several other recordings made in the Notts/Derbys area. Shortly after doing this I loaned the tape to someone who was 'Very intersted in folk music.' When it came back his kids had recorded pop music over the top of it. A hard lesson. All I remember about my informants version is that it began 'Some like a game of croquet.' He had a couple of music hall songs, one of which concerned a bloke who courted a girl in the rain. When their child was born it had an umbrella birth mark. I also remember the fine tea his wife laid out for my visit. Burl |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: Bob Bolton Date: 13 Sep 11 - 09:27 PM G'day GUEST / 20 Aug 11 - 07:36 AM, The broadsheets cited above, from Ron Edwards research trip in the 1980s, were widely published in the 'mid-1850s' ... all round Britain and Ireland. I gather there is at least one dateable printing from a London song sheet printer in 1854. This suggests why it remained such a 'nostalgic' song for the descendants of those who came to Australia in the "Gold Rushes", from ~1852 onwards. Samuel Bagnal may well have printed a copy a generation ro so later ... but the original clearly pre-dates "the 1870s". The Beers Family (re-worked) version almost certainly has a parallel path from the slightly earlier Americam Gold Rush. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: GUEST Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:36 AM My sources suggest the song was written by Samuel Bagnal in the early 1870s - I have a copy of the front page of the sheet music from a google search |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: Bob Bolton Date: 03 Jun 10 - 08:08 PM G'day again Jim, Gawd ... doesn't time fly! Ron Edwards' first book of facsimiles of Colonial Australian-relevant broadsides actually came out 2½ decades back! This is what I noted from my copy - and mentions what suggested my first 'dating': The broadside source for A Starry Night For A Ramble that was reproduced in The Convict Maid, Australian Folklore Occasional Paper No. 16, Ron Edwards, The Rams Skull Press, Kuranda, 1985 was a small broadside (250 x 190 mm) 'Printed at the Catnach Press by W. S. Fortey, 2 & 3 Monmouth Court, Seven Dials'. Edwards found this copy in the Kidson Collection, vol. 1, page 43, Mitchell Library, Glasgow. The text includes, among fashionable London diversions, Croquet (OED: 1858 – "... was introduced into Northern Ireland some twelve years ago from a French convent.]", and velocipede (OED citations between 1818 & 1850), which are evidence that both terms would be popular by around 1850. It was printed next to another song: I'll Have Your Number, which includes the term 'peeler' for a policeman, first cited by the OED in 1817 ... in Ireland ... and later for London. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: Bob Bolton Date: 03 Jun 10 - 02:39 AM G'day Jim, Yes ... the lyrics that I have worked by, for dating purposes, were reproduced, a decade or two back, by Ron Edwards, from the material he sighted in a funded study of broadside collections in Great Britain ... looking for "Australian Colonial Period" (1788 to 1900) broadsides that either mentioned Botany Bay / Australia / convict transportation - or were songs since collected from folk sources. I can look it up and give you the broadside publisher ... but there was no clear dating information, and I made my estimate from internal references and those in the other items on the same sheet(s). It turns out that I was pretty accurate, given the 'legitimate' publishing date that other researchers have, since, quoted (~ 1854 ...?). That certainly explains why it was so important to those who came here in the Gold Rushes ... starting early 1850s. Regards, Bob |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: A Starry Night for a Ramble (Beers Family From: Jim Dixon Date: 05 Feb 10 - 03:44 PM The sheet music can be seen at Indiana University: A STARRY NIGHT FOR A RAMBLE Samuel Bagnall In "Popular Songs Sung by Harry Vandemark, the Great Comic Vocalist" New York: E. H. Harding, [18--]* [The lyrics are exactly the same as those posted by Bob Bolton above, which he says came from a broadside. They begin:] 1. I like a game at croquet or bowling on the green,.... [* I found it mentioned in a couple periodicals in 1872. The sheet music was also published in Peterson's magazine, Volumes 63-64 (Philadelphia: [C.J. Peterson], Oct. 1873), page 238. However, that version has only 3 verses. The source cited there is "As published by Sep. Winner & Son,...Philadelphia."] |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bob Bolton Date: 11 Dec 00 - 06:17 AM G'day Charlie Baum, Thanks for that information. It gives me a good idea of the Beers Family and Fox Hollow. It doesn't do so much for the song, but that's folk music! At least I can see that Starry Night probably was a song surviving in the Eastern States, rather than the goldfields song it was in Australia. I appreciate all the help I have had on this topic. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Charlie Baum Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:00 PM The Fox Hollow Festival, in Petersburg, New York, ran for fifteen years from 1965-1979 (or 1966-1980). It was held on the Beers family property. They put up a few choice performers and family members in their home, but for the most part, everyone camped out, setting up tents in the fields and woods of their large back yard. There was a natural amphitheatre in the woods a few hundred feet behind the house that served as the mainstage, and some of the outbuildings on their property (notably the lodge and a gazebo or two) served as alternate concert venues. They built a pavilion for dancing off to the right, and the field to the right of the house served as the parking lot, except that it often became a muddy mire in the process. Outhouses were also set up in a couple of places on the property--though the were more like outhouse hotels, with many compartments each. But they still smelled like outhouses. The Saturday evening dance was held in the town hall at the bottom of the hill (a half-mile away, with an elevation loss of some 200-300 feet--I used to walk up and down the hill!) Petersburg sits astride Route 22, which runs North-South just inside the Eastern border of New York State, and the Beers family place was actually on the state highway that runs East-West from Albany to Williamstown, Massachusetts. Petersburg is some 20-25 miles East of Albany. It's a very hilly area, and the road from Petersburg to Williamstown crosses some very high steep hills that are considered locally to be mountains (a couple of thousand feet high). Bob Beers lost his life one winter in a car crash coming home from Williamstown and crossing those mountains in a winter storm. His wife Evelyne Beers later married Don Burnstine, and the two of them continued the Fox Hollow Festival until 1979 or 1980. When they discontinued it, Andy Spence, an Albany local, began the Old Songs Festival to take its place, evenutally moving it to the Altamont Fairgrounds, in ALtamont, New York, where it continues to this day (last weekend in June--quite possibly the perfect small festival!) I last saw Evelyne when I sang with my chorus at the Troy Savings Bank Music Hall (a perfectly restored acoustic gem over a century old in the city of Troy, New York); Evelyne was on the Board that restored the music hall. --Charlie Baum |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bob Bolton Date: 10 Dec 00 - 09:17 PM G'day Willie-O, Thanks for that background on the Beers family. I guess they would have been reasonably local to the Fox Hollow area, to start a festival there. I was really wondering (given my dating and theory in respect of the Australian version) if they had a goldfields background, but it looks as if they might be New York State locals (dating way back ... suggested by Dutch name 'Beers'?). Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Willie-O Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:36 AM Quite a bit more to say about the Beers Family, which I don't know near as much about as Sandy et al would. Bob Beers' wife was (is?) Evelyn, who played and sang old songs in a kind of art-renaissance style not much in vogue nowadays (think Richard Dyer-Bennett if that means anything to you). The daughter, Martha, was married for some years to Eric Nagler, a consummate fiddler/banjoist/singer who has been one of the most popular children's performers in Canada for many years. The Beers family started the much-beloved Fox Hollow folk festival, a damn-near-perfect small trad festival in NY state near the Vt/Mass/NY corner which ran till the early eighties. Many Mudcatters would have been there--I know that's where I met Kendall Morse for example. There's a Mudcatter called "Hollowfox", wonder who that is? Willie-O who was there once or twice...
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bob Bolton Date: 10 Dec 00 - 06:26 AM G'day Bill D, Thanks for that. I may not have got across that, as an Australian without a really deep knowledge of American performers I don't know anything about this family. I would still like to know where (what state, at least) they lived and it would be nice to know more about the depth of family links. I am working on a running presumption that this song got to America in just the same way as it got to Australia: as a popular song in London at the exact time that so many people upped sticks and headed for somewhere that they might make a fortune. Some idea of the time of its arrival in America ... and whether it is still remembered ... and in which regions ... might help me see if this is a good theory or not. Regards, Bob Bolton
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bill D Date: 10 Dec 00 - 12:22 AM I am here..*grin*...but I know little more than I posted,....The Beers Family was active thru the 60s to the mid 70s, when Bob Beers died in an auto accident..his wife & daughter did some performing after that, but Bob was the soul of it all, and it was never the same....Bob got many of his songs from his family, but, as noted, he also would write, add and embellish...perhaps Sandy or Dick G know more of this...I will see what I can find.. |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bob Bolton Date: 09 Dec 00 - 10:35 PM G'day Bill D, Are you still out there? Has Mudcat finally let you back in after its customary weekend nosedive? I am particularly interested to see what the (presumed) American links are with what is a popular waltz in my part of Australia (and, apparently, a traditional jig in the UK). Regards Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bob Bolton Date: 06 Dec 00 - 09:17 PM G'day Bill D, I'm glad that is of interest. I wonder if you could fill in this parochial antipodean on the Beers family? Where are they from and how strong are the folk roots to their songs? (Where do they record? What are some of their recordings?) It is interesting to hear that they also encountered "a fragment of it". I wonder if it was the same 8 short lines we have in Australia. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bill D Date: 06 Dec 00 - 07:56 PM wonderful, Bob! Tha really fills out the story!...the Beers album I have it on says that a 97 year old man sang a fragment of it for Bob Beers, who developed it and added lines!...Obviously, Bob didn't have the internet in the 1950s & 60s..... Thanks for the effort! |
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Subject: Lyr Add: A STARRY NIGHT FOR A RAMBLE From: Bob Bolton Date: 06 Dec 00 - 08:06 AM G'day again, I'm back at my own computer and this is an extract from material I posted in the previous thread. I know I should do a lovely "Blue Clicky" ... but these things never work after midnight - my keyboard turns into a pumpkin!
The Australian collected texts (tune is well-known and in the standard collections):
It's a starry night for a ramble
A Starry Night for a Ramble
From a broadside located by Ron Edwards in the Mitchell Library, Glasgow, 1985.
1. I like a game at croquet or bowling on the green,
The broadside is, of course, undated with no author named, but it is marked:
The term velocipede in the fourth stanza, appears (cited by the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary) about 1819 and, by 1849 was 'now obsolescent'. Croquet, in the first line is cited, in English usage, by the SOED from 1858 (although the game appeared in France in the 17th century).
There is another song printed on the same sheet: I'll Have Your Number, in which a policeman is called a Peeler. This term first meant an Irish constable (1817) but came to mean an English one after Sir Robert Peel's Police Act of 1828. The SOED first cites this use from 1851.
It may well be that such works of popular song would use idiomatic terms before they were seen by Oxford scholars in formal literature. The text reads like a recital of fashionable pursuits and, with the double entendre in the third stanza, suggests an early Music Hall song.
From the internal evidence, it would seem that the song dates from the mid to late 1850s. The few lines that survive in Australia, the chorus and the second half of the first stanza, are those that do not refer to the fashions and habits of London.
Bob Bolton
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bob Bolton Date: 05 Dec 00 - 09:29 PM G'day Seth, Bill D & Luke, The waltz tune Starry Night for a Ramble is still popular in Australia. I was asked if there were more words than the 8 short lines associated with it here and I came across an old London broadsheet, in material relating to Australian songs, tunes and versions, gleaned from the major UK libraries by Ron Edwards, an Australian folklorist. I don't have the full words handty to this computer, but I will look them up tonight (actually, I think I posted them to DigiTrad, but they may not yet be in the latest version). Anyway, this version talks about popular pastimes of the big city - about 1855 - contrasting them with the simple pleasures of a ramble on a starry night with a "significant other". As the song was popular (probably on the music hall stage) around the time many British packed up and came to look for gold in Australia (and America at much the same time) it probably spread widely and quickly. Here in Australia, all the guff about London pastimes was quickly forgotten and only the delights of a starry night remained (and it slowed down from the 6/8 jig remebered in Britain to a nice 3/4 waltz). I am interested to see Bill D's (or the Beers family's) extra verses (which also completely forget the fashionable fripperies of Victorian London). Where do these come from geographically and how far back do they trace the song? I know that it was a very much loved song in Australia and have heard of a family being gathered around the death bed of an old man (grandfather of the person who passed on this tale), asked by him to sing this very song, the last thing he heard on this earth. If my posted version is not yet in DigiTrad, I will pop a copy in this thread later tonight, after I get back form singing for country patients, down in Sydney for chemo or radiation treatments at St Vincent's Hospital. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: Lyr Add: A STARRY NIGHT TO RAMBLE From: Bill D Date: 05 Dec 00 - 08:11 PM ^^Here we go...
A starry night to ramble through the flowery dell,
Of all the things that I love best that fill me with delight,
I know a gal who'll ramble, down by the wishing well.
Across the hill and down the lane, my love and I will go.
We'll stand beneath the old oak tree, embrace and linger there, (Sounds better in the singing than it reads in print. *grin*) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bill D Date: 05 Dec 00 - 06:31 PM ...found the record...playing it now...will get those words posted soon...(sorry to be so late..it was a LONG weekend) |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Luke Date: 03 Dec 00 - 11:55 PM A stary night to ramble beneath the wintry nell Among the brush and bramble we'll kiss and never tell Of all the things that I love best that fill me with delight It is to take a ramble all on a stary night It's been a very long time since I heard this one, but I always loved it. Not sure if Bob wrote this or if it is old. It was always hard to figure with him. I hope someone here knows where to find it. Good hunting, Luke |
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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramb From: Bill D Date: 03 Dec 00 - 07:24 PM song is called "A Starry night to Ramble" I think....can 'almost' do it from memory....but I'd better go dig out the LP...will type the words soon
"Of all the things that I do love, that fill me with delight |
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Subject: Beers Family Song Lyric: Take a Ramble From: Seth Date: 03 Dec 00 - 03:40 PM I'm looking for lyrics to the song "Take a Ramble" or "Of All the Things the I Love Best" from the Beers Family LP "Introducing the Beers Family". My wife is not a very good singer, but what she knows, she knows, and this is one of the songs we can sing together without her losing the melodic thread somewhere-but we need the words. Help! Thanks Seth from China |
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