Seth! More info on China please & Thanks

Subject: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 10:49 PM

Hi Seth. Really hoping I'm not stepping out of line here, but I've enjoyed your little snippets of life in China on various threads. I'd love to know (and I think others might too) some more of your impressions of that country. Is there an actual "music scene"? You've mentioned some North American Pop music that seems to be big there...what else? Are there actual music stores? Do people (kids) play guitar? Do they know Dylan, Seeger, Beatles etc.? I'm quite curious about the amount of "Westernization" that may or may not be going on. Is the internet very expensive? What's TV like?

Thanks

Rick

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Dec 00 - 11:01 PM

My thoughts egg-xactly, Rick. Hope you don't mind sharing some with us, Seth. I would be very interested in knowing more, too.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Jed at Work
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 11:39 AM

I worked in PR China for 6 weeks, a few years ago. Not long enough to get much more then a flavor of the culture, from a traveller's p[oint of view - but I did find it fascinating, and would love to go back.

The music I heard over PA systems in public places intrigued me. It was very common to hear a (presumably) Chinese orchestra playing Lennon and McCartny! American pop and Beatles seemed to be the most common tunes. Karaoke was an absolute rage, it seems to me, as well. And soooo many many American and European pop tunes topped the list of songs chosen by the locals to sing. That may be what you'd expect in the 'world traveller' louges like those in modern hotels or hotel districts - but this was also true in the rural settings I visited and even in the private karaoke systems (we spent a week in a military compound). The locals who particpated in the karaoke, at places I attended, all seemed to do just fine with the English lyrics, though many I met could not speak English.

I was not able to attend Chinese Opera, as I had very much wished. We planned to do that on a subsequent trip, but I never made that subsequent trip. I never saw/heard any signs of Western Folk music music, not even Dylan on the Karaoke - but it may have been there. Other signs of Western culture?

CNN was quite evident everywhere. Pizza Hut and Mc Donalds have booming businesses within walking distance of Tienenman Square (and eleswhere) and I even saw, amid dirt roads and donkey carts near the Great Tombs, Colonel Sanders standing on the roadside by a tiny Kentucky Fired Chicken! Totally incongruous, it seemed to me.

My favorite times there (aside from one or two marevlous banquets) were when we got to walk among the local folks in open air markets, or ride third class in the train from near Central China to Beijing (12 hour plus trip). We travelled to a few places where I saw NO other Anglos for a week. We attracted a lot of attention form locals, and it was common for us to draw a crowd of 20 or 30 people who just followed us to see what we were doing ... what we ate, what we looked at in the open air market, what we bought, and HOW we bought (scratching western number on the ground with a stick to haggle over price).

I got the impression that one could sit on the sidewalk of Cheng Sha (one of the South China cities we visited) and watch the city grow! Growth and prosperity were everywhere in those days, and tall beautiful gleaming glass and steel buildings were being built right alongside dirt floor huts! Wonderful place. I'd go back in a minute!

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Jed at Work
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 12:02 PM

I guess that's thread creep. Sorry, couldn't help myself!

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 02:08 PM

It is very interesting thread creep, Jed! And, not much of a creep from the subject anyway. Thanks!

kat

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: okthen
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 02:33 PM

Really good idea Rick,I'd love to know more,can we appoint someone to watch over this thread to stop it dropping off?'Spose pictures are out of the question.

cheers

bill

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 00 - 06:52 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 13 Dec 00 - 09:15 AM

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Dec 00 - 09:47 AM

I travelled through China into Tibet in the late 70s. Wonderful moments in Kunming with an elderly lady who had no teeth who decided to help me choose an embroidered cape for my niece. Before it was over, we had attracted a crowd (no one spoke English) and by an improvised sign language knew all about each other's families. The cape is still a family treasure - red corderoy with embroidered kittens.
Tibet is a magical place but painfully tainted by the destruction of the Cultural Revolution - a euphemism for genocide. My saddest observation was the complete absence of young people between the ages of 8 and 20. I saw only one teenage boy horribly maimed and prostrating himself before a temple hoping for a cure. Murder and forced abortions almost wiped out all the ethnic populations in China and Tibet. Twenty years later the memory still saddens and angers me. Sorry for the drift.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 13 Dec 00 - 12:35 PM

Seth, are you there?

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: SINSULL
Date: 13 Dec 00 - 10:48 PM

Seth,
Tell me what the women wear. In the 70s, it was the dreadful Mao jacket, pants, and cap. Men and women looked alike until you were three feet away. Fashion? Color? Style? Piercings? Come on. I need to know.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Dec 00 - 01:12 PM

SINSULL - I was struck by the fashions, even in the less modern cities, where many lived in what we would consider rustic or primitive homes, the ladies would all be pedaling to and from work on bicycles in skirts, heels and hose; modern, if primarily functional clothing. Men, likewise would wear functional clothing that may be classified business casual. It was easy to tell the Japanese tourists at a glance (and I only saw them in Beijing).

I understand your attahcment to the embroidered cape. Regretably I did not bring home any of the beautiful silk clothing I saw there, for my wife - but I was lucky enough to find her a hand made alpaca sweater from a trip to Equador. She has kept it carefully, and worn it on a few occasions.

I was also well aware of the harder times my Chinese friends had recently endured. They spoke freely of their life, their hopes and dreams - but were silent about the politics, and spoke carefully of the hardships they had suffered during the Red Guard days.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Seth
Date: 14 Dec 00 - 04:41 PM

I have been busy with school the last few days and the internet here is not too steady, so sometimes I can't post or bring up Mudcat. We are off to Nan Yang to look for the jade and turquoise mines. WInter in these parts of China is not a holiday postcard. THe sky is the color of laundry rinse water, and it's gray and brown and navy blue everywhere you look. The wind from Siberia comes to visit, and it makes January in Chicago seem like Carnaval! The wind blows the dirt and old plastic and garbage around, people are huddled in their clothes, everything just looks a little shabbier. BUT, people never lose their warmth, and it is something that I just don't find in the U.S.A., where streets are empty and stores are full. Here the streets are always full. Luoyang is an old,old city; Capital of nine dynasties they tell me, but the ninth was a long time ago, and it's been a long slide down ever since. THe Japanese occupied it for a while at the end of the Great War, it seems that they wrecked what wasn't falling down already. There has been a lot of rebuilding in the past twenty years. After I finish writing this, we are traveling ten miles out of the city to the dedication of the Long Men grottoes as an international cultural and historic site. They tell us that thousands of people will be there, plus international TV. We'll see. We are a long way from Beijing, geographicly,culturally and politically. As they say here, "The mountains are high and the Emporer? is far away." 90% of the news of China that comes to us from the TV is about Beijing, so Chinese people don't know much about the rest of China. I can't tell you horror stories, because I only can talk about what I see. IN this city of six million, the police don't carry guns, in fact , you just never see anyone with a firearm, which is a pleasant change from the U.S. I'll send more about NanYang and CHinese trains nest week My best to you Seth from CHina

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Dec 00 - 05:03 PM

Thank you, Seth! How wonderful and interesting to hear from you and to read your excellent descriptions! Thank you, thank you! Looking forward to the next installment.

kat

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 14 Dec 00 - 06:44 PM

Seth - I believe Luoyang is the city where I spent a week. If I am not mistaken it is a 12 hour train ride from Beijing. We stayed at a Military 'resort' or compound, close to the city. I bought paintings there at an open air market, and we ate scorpions at a banquet and little roasted sparrows on a stick. We also bought fresh roasted sweet potatoes from a street vendor - we did run afoul of the local military men (some of whom were armed) when we took a short cut across what was apparently a private place. But they must have decided we were harmless travellers and settled for chasing us off the property! I was told there were archeological sites nearby.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Dec 00 - 10:25 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Dec 00 - 06:41 PM

Thanks Seth,(and the other travellers as well!)

Scorpions Jed? Now YOU know how to assimilate!

Rick

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 15 Dec 00 - 07:42 PM

I didn't always recognize what I was eating (thank God). It was always delicious (even the scorpions) so I just ate was given to me, and enjoyed it. The scorpions were unmistakable - deep fried and highly spiced. I decided they couldn't be much different from soft shell crabs and I love those, so I dug in ... and they were delicious! We also had too much of a drink they called Mo Tai (probably not spelled that way). It seems every few minutes one of our Chinese hosts would stand up and offer a long toast (in Chinese), and we'd all end by chugging this shot of booze, that tastes like the locker room smells! I didn't see a lot of social drinking in China, but it seemed to me here the object was to get drunk! I think our hosts were a bit disappointed in our unwillingness to continue pounding the vile liquid down!

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 03:48 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Jed at Work
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 04:48 PM

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 01:22 PM

Are you still in China, Seth?

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Seth
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 10:47 AM

IF you are close to my generation, male, American, then you remember the war comics of the nineteen fifties, with orange colored Chinese pilots flying their MIGs and saying things like " Eat leaden death, Yankee dogs" into their headphones, before they were blown to pieces by American Sabre jets. Later, before I came to China, I was warned by family, friends and travel guides how wily and tricky the Chinese were , and how it was part of their culture to try to rip off the unwary or unwise visitor. If you read guidebooks about China, you can read this too. It says that a Chinese merchant will lose face with his or her colleagues if they don't come out on the fat end of every deal. So… We decided to visit Nan Yang, a town about five hours away by train, famous for its jade and turquoise mines. It was gray. It was cold. The wind was down from Mongolia for a few days, which always makes every day feel a little like Cleveland in January. Snow blowing horizontally as the train left LouYang. Steam locomotives and Nuke plants. We were riding economy hard seat, which means just that. Seats are pieces of wood nailed together at right angles with the most minimal padding. Heat is supplied by a Chinese train crew woman shoveling coal into a boiler at the end of each car. There are fancier trains in China, but we weren't on one. We were riding with lots of our kids from school who were on their way home for vacation, so we were having an okay time in spite of the cold. Things went from worse to not so bad, and by the time we got to Nan Yang, one of our students decided that we needed help, (which was true) and he and his father helped us find a hotel that wasn't too expensive, but still pretty nice. We have gotten used to this kind of serendipity, it happens so often here that we tend to think of it as a sort of bank account that we can just draw on as necessary. We never did reach our goal of getting to the actual jade mine, we thought we were going there and then the cab driver stopped to ask directions of a police woman, who quickly doffed her hat and Sam Browne belt, hopped in the cab, and guided us to a jade shop-run by her mother and grandmother! But the things they had were lovely, the prices ( after negotiating ) were fair, and the policewoman was on of the most beautiful women I ever seen, so we did n't feel ripped off at all. When it became clear that we were done buying, policewoman jumped back in the cab and was gone like a cool breeze, which is also what we were standing in, with the temperature around zero and us miles past the end of the bus line not even sure where we were. What to do, What to do? Eating "tang" at this point in any Chinese journey is always a good strategy, for the soup served in this part of China will warm anyone up. Folks in Henan Province like soup to be very spicy, and when it's cold, spicy and thermally hot too. Later, we sloshed out to the highway to see if we could find a wandering bus or cab, but the serendipity angels sent a guy who pulled up in his new BMW, asked us in very good English if we needed a ride and he zipped us back to our hotel full of car heater and Chinese FM. He didn't ask for anything, just hoped that we were enjoying China. Things steadily got better as the days went on. Every time we had a need, a person appeared as if on cue to fill it. Leslie was chased out of a store by a merchant who noticed that Leslie had forgotten to get her change back. I was chased for half a block by a Muslim raisin seller who wanted to know if we had liked the noodle shop he had recommended. We couldn't find a receipt to get back a 200 Yuan hotel deposit; the hotel gave it to us anyway. We went to neighborhood restaurant three times to eat and the last time the whole staff gathered around to have pictures taken, wish us well, and, of course, the meal was free. And that's not all, that's just the stuff that I recall easily. I don't think that they get too many Americans coming through Nan Yang, I don't think that you could expect this in Beijing or Shanghai, but who knows? The warmth and kindness of Chinese people is amazing. I shake my head in wonder. Later, getting on the train to go back to Luo Yang, we got to see another side of Chinese life. Chinese people don't like to wait in line. There are no reserve seats on the hard seat train. There are many farmers with huge bags of peanuts, raisins, fleece to take to the larger markets of LuoYang. When the train arrives at the station, before it has completely stopped, before any passengers can get off, people are pushing, crowding, using their packages and bags as battering rams to get on the car so that they can get a seat. About ten minutes of chaotic insanity, while people yell and scream, threaten each other, call each other names and fight for seats. Wow. Then everyone calms down for the rest of the trip. The young men have all the best seats, and families and the old women have to take what they can get, which sometimes is no seat at all. I saw women as old as my mother sitting on the diamond plate between the cars because there was no seat for them inside. Then we ride through the beautiful Chinese country side in the late winter afternoon, the sun cutting the green fields at an oblique angle, making an etching of every goose, duck and muddy child we see in the villages along the rails. We share our food with our traveling companions, Chinese country folks who cough, spit, smoke, drink, and toss things out the train window. They laugh, showing their brown and broken teeth in big smiles as we attempt to communicate in Chinese, a source of never ending mirth to them. Chinese kids like jeans, printed T shirts, platform shoes, Backstreet Boys, all the pop icons. I haven't met a kid yet with a strong individual taste in Western music, but they are pretty open to what ever I try to do, at least in class. Biggest smash that I ever used: Do Ya Wanna Dance? old Beach Boys rock and roll.( 19 English words!) Biggest dud? Knockin' on Heaven's Door. They didn't get it, told me they hated it. Did I tell you that I love it here? Love from Seth in China

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 11:09 AM

chuckle - nice stories, Seth. Thanks for the thoughts. I too have similar memories. You said "the warmth and kindness of Chinese people is amazing" - and I have similar recollections; even in Beijing, where we were picked up by a passing van, late one night and driven back to the hotel, for no reason except the driver wishing to be helpful. I also had a shop keeper seek us out the day after he had suggested a restaurant, to see if we had enjoyed the food.

I hope I find my way back there one day, but in the meantime - please keep passing on the stories!

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Night Owl
Date: 08 Feb 01 - 11:10 PM

thanks for the post Seth.....wonderful reading. Getting a seat on the train there sounds remarkably similar to rush hour on the MTA in downtown Boston.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:31 PM

On a related subject, the US State Dept has issued a warning for Americans travelling in China. This is not a political move, this is based upon the current list of Americans held there today for speaking views unpopular to the Chinese gov't and the experiences of several others recently detained and interrogated for their political speach.

I hope all goes well Seth (others). I trust you are in good hands, but thought you might appreciate seeing the news. I have posted this text to the "Hianan" thread - to be sure the word gets out.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: SINSULL
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 01:06 PM

Seth, That was a wonderful tale. We left first class to wander to the back of the train and play Bridge with assorted passengers. Some languages are universal. Unfortunately a crowd gathered and we were officially asked to leave.Thanks for reminding me of some nice memories.

Can you give us an idea of how students and the "man on the street" are reacting to the recent spy plane incident?
Mary

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 03:02 PM

Ah the undiscovered jewels of Mudcat! I missed this the first time around. What a great descriptive piece by Seth.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: GUEST,Seth from China
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 07:21 PM

My experiences here after the Hainan Island incident haven't been too bad, considering the feeling of most Chinese about it. No demonstrations, no personal hostility at all, many small and personal gestures of support from students and Chinese teachers. When you are one of the very few Americans in this city of six million, it means a lot. Chinese friends say " We know this has nothing to do with you or our friendship." which is true, but very nice to hear anyway. Part of the teaching in grade school and beyond is loyalty and obedience to parents, school and country, and that goes back to Confucious. It's reinforced by military training starting in grade one, class monitors who enforce good behavior, line leaders who march all their pals to the dining hall and when they do daily exercise. It is difficult to get a class to turn in an assignment without "cheating", because they are all programmed to be responsible for the success of their classmates as well as themselves, so they help each other, but each person still wants to come out on top. Chinese have mixed feelings about the U.S. I've talked with many older people , and they tell me of the love they will always have for the country that was their World War 2 ally against the Japanese. Nixon and Kissinger, scoundrels in the U.S., are heroes here, because of their efforts to end China's international isolation. Chinese loved Clinton, who they saw as an appropriatly lusty and virile leader, who traveled to China snd talked to the people directly. The popular term for the current resident is "Bu-xiao" ( boo-shaow)which is a pun on his name which can be roughly translated as "weenie, wimp, wanker,wuss, dweeb,dork, dickhead"! America here is seen as the class ruffian, who is sometimes your friend, but often not,powerful, dangerous, but full of life and energy that is very attractive. Chinese feel that they need to work with us, be trading partners, but they sure don't want to be Americans. Nor do they want the U.S. government to be telling them the role they should play in world affairs. In the agrarian centuries past, China's huge population was an advantage in times of conflict. Now, China is try-ing to leave that behind and create a nation of fewer, more educated people. It's a long process, but as my Chinese friends tell me, so was building the Great Wall. THis is why I'm here. The students at our school ( who well may be running the country in a few years)will not think faceless foreign demons when they consider America. They will remember teachers who talked with them, played with them, sang, traveled, ate with them, scolded them, brought them books, and cared about them, the pictures of our children and grandchildren, just about their ages, that they admired on the wall of our apartment. They will carry the thought that at least most of us are interested in a peaceful and stable world where we can all grow up. I will be leaving here in two months to return to the States. My plan is to work in the U.S. for a while, see my kids and my mom, and then return to China. Be well Seth

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 10:25 AM

I am envious of your experience, Seth! I enjoyed my short time working in PRChina and would love to return one day. Thanks for sharing so much of your experience here on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 20 Apr 01 - 08:09 PM

Wonderful, valuable thread. Thanks a million, Seth, your turn of phrase is a joy. (And thanks for nudging him, Rick.)

Subject: RE: Seth! More info on China please & Thanks
From: roopoo
Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:36 AM

I can vouch for the lack of hostility after the latest incident. My husband (late of Siberia) is now going to be fixed in Shenyang for a bit over 2 years. he hasn't reported anything. The only thing that he's fighting against at the moment is EEC beaurocracy which is hampering his work!

He has got a very swish apartment in the city, and has acquired a decent bike to use around the place. He says the car drivers are absolute anarchists, but the only sign of any "road rage" he has ever come across was the fist-fight between a motorist and the moped rider he had just knocked off! He says the taxi drivers are all very friendly. The city of Shenyang has a strip of pretty parkland through which he says runs one of the most polluted rivers he has seen. He says it is black and oily with all sorts of crap (probably literally) in it. Where the level has risen and gone down it has left a crusty deposit. The river runs into a lake, and he says now that it has thawed the stench for as much as 20 metres away is awful. It is full of dead fish!

He often cycles down to the local markets to buy his vegetables and really is only bemoaning the lack of cheese and ground coffee in the shops. He doesn't like the beer, which he says is flavourless and weak, so he is making his own!. He's a bit concerned that while he is over here his rather zealous cleaner might tip the bucket of "dirty water" away!

It's early days yet, but I think if it wasn't for European beaurocrats (it's an EC job he's on) he'd be really enjoying himself. Takes his driving test when he gets back.

Andrea