BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb

Subject: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Helen
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 05:03 PM

I just finished watching the BBC's (Beeb's) TV production of Mervyn Peake's weird trilogy of novels about Gormenghast. I read half of the trilogy when I was at Uni but never did get around to finishing it.

I was afraid that the TV version would have been sanitised and sentimentalised and all the weirdness would have been leached out of it, but no - not with Stephen Fry in it, and not when the BBC is in control.

It's a bit slow moving at times, but well worth watching if you like anything out of the ordinary.

Has anyone else seen it?

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Rizla the Green
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 05:33 PM

Yes I have...Brilliant stuff....as good as the books, you really should read all three.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 05:38 PM

It got panned by many of the TV critics in England, but that's what they do for a living. You don't weant to take much notice of those fellas. (The exception is Nancy Banks-Smith who writes in the Guardian, but not often enough, and she liked it.)

Pretty good, I thought, and imaginatively done. The "Chinese" feeling about the whole thing felt right to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Naemanson
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 05:45 PM

I have seen this mentioned in other threads. I must confess I have no idea what you are talking about!

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 05:53 PM

It's a trilogy written by a fella called Mervyn Peake back in the 1940s, and the BBC made a film of it. And here is a site about it

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Troll
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 08:39 PM

McGrath, Great site. Thanks. I hpoe that we can get the show over here.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 08:44 PM

They've shown it on BBC-America, I couldn't get into it...maybe I need to try the book, first.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 08:24 AM

Purely a personal thought, so don't slate me over this next statement....

but the series, was the biggest load of expensive twaddle going! Over rated, over produced and over here...

lol

Ella

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 01:08 PM

hey I liked it Ella, you should see most of the crap we get to watch over here, Friends, Changing Rooms....

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Morticia
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 01:14 PM

I loved it although, having read the books first, no-one looked as they were supposed to but that's always the case when you've read the book first......unless that's just me? I thought the costumes, scenery and atmosphere was just right though and the standard of acting was wonderful.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 01:38 PM

I started the trilogy because my mother recommended it but could not finish the first volume. Weird yes, but not weird enough for me and not weird in the way I wanted fantasy to be weird at the time. I also had real problems with the names. Come on, Prunesquallor? Oddly enough I still remember vividly the duel in the hall of spiders. Maybe I would like it better as a movie.

Subject: Gormenghast
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 02:30 PM

Saw it...

Hated it...

Tried to read it...

Hated it even more...

Funny thing about taste is how subjective it is eh...

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 02:38 PM

I echo Russ - I started to read Titus Groan and found it depressingly slow. I could not sympathise or empathise with any of the characters and my whole recollection is of a grey drab monochrome world.
The TV production on the other hand seemed to be attempting to create an Alice in Wonderland type of setting which I did not find at all true to the way I remember the book.
That said, it had an excellent cast and was well acted, although I only saw bits of it in passing.
Quack
GtD

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Helen
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 06:37 PM

I was hoping that the song by The Strawbs called Lady Fuschia would be included, but it wasn't. I've got the vinyl album with that track on it, but I haven't listened to it for years.

I agree with most of you - I was always in two minds about the books, especially as far as the storyline goes, but I loved the descriptions of the rooftops, the buildings, especially the giant tree (not big enough or complex enough in the tv show for my imagination) and the people.

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 06:58 PM

Not easy reading, I grant you. I always liked Flaye meself, he had integrity.

my whole recollection is of a grey drab monochrome world. The TV production on the other hand seemed to be attempting to create an Alice in Wonderland type of setting which I did not find at all true to the way I remember the book.

But Geoff, one great thing with the telly is, if you think it's better grey and monochrome, you can always make it that way with a press of a button. That way you can make some modern rubbish feel like a halfway decent 30s movie sometimes. The colours are sometimes better in Black and White, the same way the pictures can be better on radio.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 07:03 PM

Found books very dull at uni - well, I got about 40 pages in before giving up. Worse than Dickens.

Found the BBC show very self indulgent. All the luvviest luvvies just loving the chance to overact and scream at the tops of their voices. Wholly unconvincing.

The first and most important of the actor's craft is the suspension of disbelief, and some great names just don't do it - Peter Ustinov just plays Peter Ustinov, for example, and I feel the same about Meryl Streep (although she does do accents quite well). David Jason, for example, disappears into the part in about 10 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: GUEST,Lepus Rex... Damned cookie.
Date: 30 Dec 00 - 10:17 AM

God, I'm such a bum. The LAST time this subject came up, I meant to get my Gormenghast books out of storage, because I'd never finished reading them. All I can find is Titus Alone, and I can't start there... I'll have to head over to my locker today.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 30 Dec 00 - 12:37 PM

Thanks for the link!!! I've been wanting to see the production since I heard about it. (There was also a German-produced opera a couple years ago.) I adored the books and have been meaning to reread them for the past 25 years, but ... "Wake up you bloody city, bang your bells. I'm here to eat you!" Peake was a genius. Of course, I'm a sucker for universes within one piece of architecture. I even dream about them.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Dec 00 - 12:47 PM

"Found books very dull at uni - well, I got about 40 pages in before giving up. Worse than Dickens."

I don't think Peake would have objected in the least to being put in the dock with Dickens!

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 30 Dec 00 - 03:42 PM

Roger.... I know.... I am from the UK too... though I must admit, I try NOT to watch too much tv if possible...

Ella

:)

and yes all those boring tv better your home things.... pure dross!

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 07:23 AM

I loved it - especialy Eric Sykes portrayal of the Doctors butler and the scenes with the schoolmasters:-)

More importantly for me, I, like others said before, could not get into the books. My twin 15 year old daughters, after seeing the series, are now half way through the written trilogy. Having seen them survive on a diet of rock magazines and Terry Pratchett for the last few years it is very pleasant to see them expanding their reading base.

Not that there is anything wrong with Terry Pratchett but while he is waiting to get into the 'classic' genre Mervyn Peake is already there and on school reading lists!

Happy new year one and all

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 09:06 AM

I mentioned Gormenghast on the list last January after seeing it over here (Toronto) on CITY TV. I've been waiting for it to be released over here so I can have it without commercials.

The book (also at Uni) took me several attempts to reach page 200 or so but then the sheer imagination took over. I managed the second volume in 2 days.

It is my favourite work of fiction (Bulkagov's Master & Marguerita is a close second). The BBC's version was excellent, in my opinion and very faithful. Having just returned from the UK last night I saw some comments such as "Gormenghastly" which say more about the critic as opposed to the production. That being said, it is certainly not every ones cup of tea.

(I thought it might have been shown on PBS - WUBG(?) are co-prducers according to credits, but they didn't seem to know what I was talking about when I contacted them about it)

All the best for the new year

Cheers Rana

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Grab
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 02:37 PM

Come on, the books are seriously over-rated. What makes it worse is that there's an OK story in there trying to get out (at least in the first 2 books, which are the ones dramatised), but Peake's writing bogs the whole thing down. What he needed was a good editor to say, "Look, this is OK but it's not right. Take it back, rework it a bit, and get it sorted." The 2-dimensional nature of every character (even Steerpike) made it something of an endurance exercise since you don't actually care what happens to any of the characters involved. Peake seems to have spent too long writing essays, and forgot that he was writing a story for ppl to read rather than a text to be analysed. The series actually made it better IMO, basically by putting some depth and life in the characters.

That's the first 2 books anyway. The 3rd book (Titus Alone) is a dreadful mess, mainly cos Peake was on some serious hallucinogenic drugs at the time, and without the Flower Power ppl getting into Tolkien and other fantasy books like Gormenghast, I doubt it'd ever have been published.

And Peake and Dickens are the classic example of what's wrong with school reading lists. On the one hand there's Peake writing tedious pages of nothing, which you're forced to sit and analyse. And on the other hand there's Dickens, who wrote the 19th century equivalent of Neighbours or Dallas. Their only advantage is that they're old - they offer little in the way of guidance in how to write, and they're hardly entertainment.

Never mind, Dave - give Pratchett another 40 years, and he'll be on the reading lists too. By then the books'll be old enough to be "classic literature".

Grab.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Helen
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 07:14 PM

Grab,

Now I remember why I never finished the Peake books. You've hit the nail on the head. I never liked Dickens either for the same reasons you have said.

I always wondered what it would be like not having tv, movies etc and whether I would plough through Dickens novels, but I think I would have found them tedious even then.

IMHO, Pratchett already is a classic novelist - like Van Gogh etc - not yet recognised in his own time. (Depends on your definition of "classic", eh?)

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 09:38 AM

Grab,

I think it's all to do with peoples tastes. The work ranks high with me for the sheer imagination. I agree, the books could probably have done with a good edit - it took me ages to get into it, also the Beeb got the 2 books down to 4hrs with out missing a beat. The 3rd book was never edited properly by Peake (would have probably doubled in size!); however, the contrast to the world of Gormenghast - which to me asked whether I was reading about the past ages or future - was another example of his imaginative powers. I suppose I'm not in the habit of dissecting the quality of prose (we had to choose between English Lit. & Geology for 'O'-level at school and I did the latter).

Like you I always found Dickens tedious to try and read. The dramatisations were always enjoyable - quality soaps! (:-)). I finally got through Nicholas Nickleby (fairly efficiently on streetcar rides to and from work) after watching the RSC stage production. I learnt to skip through the bits of tedious prose. It's struck me that TV has also learnt on paring down the stories to the essentuals, and manged to do so with out losing the essence. I seem to remember the BBC productions would run to 13 episodes whereas they can do them in a couple now - eg. Oliver Twist and David Copperfield.

One point that struck me a few years ago re. reading Dickens was that I had no trouble in reading Zola. I then realised that this may be because I was reading a modern English translation of his work. I wondered whether a modern English translation of Dickens would be more readable.

So, as said, it all comes down to what you are looking for in a story. Out of interest, what are your favourites?

Regards Rana

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: annamill
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 09:52 AM

I though our Mudcat 'bbc' had done the production. We used to call her beebs affectionately. Don't know the work, but I'm always looking. I'll have a gander.

Love, annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Helen
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 05:20 PM

About Dickens,

From memory, I think Dickens wrote most of his "novels" as serials in newspapers, so they were probably written over a long period of time, episode by episode, without the benefit of a re-write. I think a lot of good (good, as in well-crafted, conceptually integrated, etc)novels are written and then re-written in the light of the twists and turns that the novelist has put in along the way and which he/she did not foresee at the beginning.

I think a radical re-edit of Dickens would be really good. The story lines and characters are ok but the rambling on and on is just too much for my liking.

Rana,

I think you are right about tv scripting reducing it to the essentials - clever thought!!

Helen

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 03 Jan 01 - 06:05 PM

Could not stand Gormenghastly -either the books or the TV production- a complete waste of time. I do love Dickens especially Little Dorritt (obviously) but if you like the style but find him tedious then I beg you to read Wilkie Collins -who is often overshadowed by Dickens but is certainly his equal. His best novel is probably one of his least known 'No Name' and is about two sisters disinherited by their illegitimacy and how they regain their fortune-absolutely brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 09:09 AM

I'll second the Wilkie Collins recommendations. When I first read Moonstone and Woman in White I couldn't put them down. I should re-read the others - I remebert reading No Name but not the story.

Rana

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 07:20 PM

Heh heh heh, I like the Dickens remarks. I'm pathetically proud of the fact that I never finished the loathsome "Great Expectations" that was on my A-level syllabus. I tried reading Gormenghast, and couldn't (much like the detestable Ulysses), then I re-read it after the BBC production. I liked the TV vesion. Espcially Jonathan Rhys-Meyers cheekbones - hellllloooooo, MMmmmmmmrrr! (He has an elfin face, I think that's what I liked...)
Don't get me wrong - I love books, am a complete book addict, but Dickens is too moralistic and dry, Peake rambles and Joyce writes too much like a Public Schoolboy for my liking. But then, who am I to criticise?

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: sophocleese
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 10:03 PM

Oh well I was the only one in my University class who read all of Tom Jones. I love being able to sink completely into a different world, something I haven't done since my eldest started crawling. I read the Titus Groan trilogy in my last year of highschool and couldn't put it down once I was well underway. A lot of the details are forgotten but some images remain fairly clear still. I'm waiting for BBC's version to be available on video so I can watch it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gormenghast: production by the Beeb
From: Grab
Date: 05 Jan 01 - 09:30 AM

Rana, usually whatever I'm reading at the time. Whether it's good or bad, I'll finish it anyway, but then a typical paperback only takes me a couple of hours so it's no worse than sitting through a bad film.

A better option than Peake but in the same vein is Stephen Donaldson. He's a bit of a show-off in using long words for the sake of it (and he tends to use the same long words all the time, so it's not cos he uses them naturally! :-) For depth of vision, the Gap-war series doesn't have much competition, and the "Daughter of Regals" short stories are pretty damn good too and more accessible. Stephen King's Dark Tower series started well, but has vanished up its own bum in basically becoming a series of product placements for his other books. Oh, and Neal Stephenson's Snow Crash isn't anything like it but it's genius nonetheless.

You're dead right about Dickens adapting well as a TV series - basically he was writing half-hour Victorian soap operas, the same way that Conan Doyle was writing 2-hour detective features, so the pacing adapts itself well to an episodic TV treatment. But the screenwriter has the option of editting the book to get a coherent script, and the director and actors have the option of tweaking the script and presentation to make it more believable/interesting/whatever.

Dickens used the text fairly well to embed the "in previous episodes" stuff into the current episode - these things would run for months at a time, so you couldn't guarantee not to miss one somewhere and hence he had to have some way of filling in anyone who'd arrived halfway through. It's not done too badly on that score, but when you read it all the way through as a book it doesn't work well - it just seems like he keeps repeating stuff.

Grab.