Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 08:07 AM

there are some very good concertina craftsmen out there, but a shortage of them, for amount of work, hence delays

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 05:42 PM

> Richard,I believe you had to wait a very long time to have one made

Two very long times for two of mine from two different makers. In both cases there were reasons and in neither case have I any grudge.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 08:26 PM

Richard,I believe you had to wait a very long time to have one made.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 06:06 PM

For me the major advantage of the anglo over other systems is that you have a home position with eight fingers on eight buttons. Depending on what tune you are playing and your personal inclinations and skill you move your fingers away from that home position to a greater or lesser extent, but in that home position you already have sixteen notes immediately available.

Of course, like most things in life, the anglo also has disadvantages. For some people the completely different sets of notes on push and pull are mind bending. And you can't (as on the other systems) change bellows direction independently of what notes you wish to play.

I advise anyone wondering what kind of musical instrument to take up to beg or borrow (preferably not steal) several different kinds to have a go on. With luck, one kind will quickly feel more natural than the others.

I dabbled with various instruments in my childhood and early adulthood, then one day I came upon a 20-key German concertina in a store room. I fiddled with it for a bit and found that it made some sense to me. I found the owner who sold it to me for the same £2 that it had cost him. I soon graduated to better instruments, and eventually to several 40-key anglos.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 01:49 PM

I do agree, Guran, about the importance of bellows control in any type of concertina. It can't do everything a violin bow can, but it is the source of dynamics, and hence of both rhythm in dance music and expression in slow tunes.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 11:52 AM

I have to add that some ( surprisingly not all) concertina tutors do mention the importance of bellows control BUT mostly just in general terms like "the bellows is the soul of the squeezebox" or "use the bellows like the bow of the violin"...but without much analysis of the practical aims and means for it.Allan Atlas ( for the English system) tried to some part to reawaken the "Victorian" approach of Regondi and others but it is possible to go much further than that. Alsepti ( or maybe firstly Lachenals) introduced the notorious "bowing valves" but maybe they just made things extra complicated...

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 03:59 AM

In the academic accordion "world" the button accordeon, and in Scandinavia particularly the free bass button accordeon, seems to be dominating over the piano accordion but that is not the main point - "bellows use" definitely - all since the days of 1930s ( Hugo Herrmann and others)- contrary to what you say has had a prominent part. "The folk world" as you say is different (but cajun/zydeco style for instance due to the rhythmical idiom is one exception) and it certainly might be fruitful having more contact or "synthesis" between the academic and folk players concerning development of playing techniques. Counts for all instruments....

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 02:32 AM

'Sometimes it is a bit sad that concertina playing has not been subject to "academic tuition" in similar way as accordion playing ( to some degree...) has at some musical university institutions. I am not so keen on theorizing practical matters myself but sometimes it may help no doubt"
Concertina playing has been the subject of many tutors, I have two at my website, www.dickmiles.com
there are also many workshops at festivals and also organised by concertina groups which do help with tuition.
Piano accordion players[ partly because of the weight of the instrument] are often in my experience, guilty of not thinking about bellows use, so much for piano accordion academic tuition., it seems to have had very little effect in the folk world.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM

Brian: "I don't agree. Bellows reversals do not achieve staccato"

Sometimes it is a bit sad that concertina playing has not been subject to "academic tuition" in similar way as accordion playing ( to some degree...) has at some musical university institutions. I am not so keen on theorizing practical matters myself but sometimes it may help no doubt.
Of course "staccato" can be achieved both by "finger articulation" and "bellows articulation" ( in accordion tuition those terms were introduced by Hugo Herrmann in the 1930s). Mostly in practise there are various degrees of combination.

Brian:( thumbstrap for anglo): It's not going to do much for your air button control, though!

That can be easily fixed! I have tried it myself and so has Colin Dipper and Geoff Crabb for some of their customers and quite a few players have done it for themselves by various modifications

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:23 PM

Anglo playing spontaneously stimulates more use of bellows articulation particularly for staccato

I don't agree. Bellows reversals do not achieve staccato, merely that one note stops when the next one starts, which isn't the same thing. I always recommend my students to practice staccato by quick release of the finger from the button.

With the Anglo on the other hand *adding* a thumb strap may relieve the thumb from crampful muscular strain.

It's not going to do much for your air button control, though!

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 08:13 AM

Guran",With Anglo on the other hand good legato playing can be a major challenge of course" not if you play in the key of b flat, or if you cross rows
more bollocks from Guran, "while English players spontaneously use more finger articultion and many of them have difficulties creating a crisp staccato" it is very easy to create crisp staccato on the english, particularly with jumps of a fifth using one finger.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

Brian:"What Alistair described in his workshop was not reversing the bellows as per the anglo. His point was that, since on the anglo one button controls two opposed reeds and their associated valves, when you change bellows direction one valve shuts and the corresponding one on the opposite side opens simultaneously, so one reed begins to sound at precisely the same moment its opposite is cut abruptly to nothing. That gives you very precise punctuation. The business of dynamics does not necessarily depend on bellows reversals"

Hmm, technically there is some point in that, but in practise ( You know as an anglo player..) it is only occasionally that you get two consecutive notes of the same button so that initiation/onset of the two notes is strictly "bellows-articulated" - at the moment of reversal as you say. In most activities there is some varying combination of finger-articulation and bellows-articulation. Anglo playing spontaneously stimulates more use of bellows articulation particularly for staccato while English players spontaneously use more finger articultion and many of them have difficulties creating a crisp staccato. AA certainly is one who has learnt to master this all the same. With Anglo on the other hand good legato playing can be a major challenge of course.

Concerning AA:s style he likely had some practise prior to the first recordings... but nevertheless intense English-playing puts a great deal of ( usually unhealthy)unphysiological stress on thumb joints, particularly the second one which may cause wear and inflammatory reactions.This may be counteracted by a proper wrist support combined with a hand/wrist strap so that the load on the thumb is reduced.

With the Anglo on the other hand *adding* a thumb strap may relieve the thumb from crampful muscular strain.
Most concertina players play seated despite the instrument may seem so handy for doing it standing.There are reasons for that....

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 09:50 AM

the possibility to get ( firstly) the single note rhythmical effect from Anglo-playing by using the English in a similar way. "All" you have to do is reversing the bellows likewise.All the notes are there. There is a number of English-players doing trad "Irish" music this way. BUT it is a lot more demanding doing energetic and loud multi note Morris style Anglo-playing using an English likewise.

What Alistair described in his workshop was not reversing the bellows as per the anglo. His point was that, since on the anglo one button controls two opposed reeds and their associated valves, when you change bellows direction one valve shuts and the corresponding one on the opposite side opens simultaneously, so one reed begins to sound at precisely the same moment its opposite is cut abruptly to nothing. That gives you very precise punctuation. The business of dynamics does not necessarily depend on bellows reversals.

As far as playing morris dance music on an English goes, although it clearly can be done, the kind of accompanying chording easily achieved on an anglo would be very hard to imitate convincingly.

I'll ask Alistair about the health of his thumb joints next time I see him. However, his playing has been extremely dynamic since his earliest recordings, so I don't think it's decades of practice that have enabled him to play like that.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM

Brian, YES...I agree of course concerning the possibility to get ( firstly) the single note rhythmical effect from Anglo-playing by using the English in a similar way. "All" you have to do is reversing the bellows likewise.All the notes are there. There is a number of English-players doing trad "Irish" music this way. BUT it is a lot more demanding doing energetic and loud multi note Morris style Anglo-playing using an English likewise.

AA as an example - from decades of intensive prof practise likely got unusual strength and thus means to get along pretty well ( but I would not be surprised if he begins suffering from arthrosis in his thumb joints by now...). Anyway ...everyone ( AA too...) would be able to do it easier using an Anglo/Duet handstrap with the English rather than the unstable thumbstrap/fingerplate arrangement.

YES...I also believe the "trad Irish Anglo idiom originates simply from availability of "cheap anglo concertinas" which in reality to a great part were "cheap german concertinas" marketed in Ireland.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 08:32 AM

I suspect the popularity of the anglo in Irish music might have been due to the availability of cheap instruments.

As anglo player myself I feel duty-bound to mention the name Alistair Anderson in connection with bouncy playing. He gave a very interesting workshop years ago in which he explained how the bounciness imparted by bellows reversals could be duplicated on the English by a combination of clipping note lengths and momentary changes in bellows pressure.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:56 AM

Howard!

It IS impossible for simple anatomic reasons! Instead of bringing up *fairly* successful examples ( like Dave T. ) the "principle" in it is this: Whoever you are you will be able to transmit force/energy from the arms to the instrument more efficiently with the handstrap connection than with the thumbstrap/fingerplate concept and energetic bellows reversals ( necessary for bouncy playing) demands comfortable and efficient "pumping".

Speed...picking single note playing of scales or chromatic runs ( which is the best indicator) of "speed" as such.. you will find nobody able to execute the same speed as with the english using any other of the common concertina systems. You CAN do it - and even faster for some passages - with an accordion though but the cause of that is the option using a "flyng hand" as with the piano. Concerning instrument "speed" in general the two-hand-superiority ca be illustrated by a hammered dulcimer or vibraphone as well.

Concerning choice of instrument I absolutely agree. One funny thing remains as a puzzle for me however - the English ought to be more suitable for the typical "Irish" idiom than the Anglo... but tradition got its own pathways, not necessarily rational ones.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:47 AM

".It is in principle impossible to get the same bouncy rhythm as in trad morris anglo playing using an english...."

Difficult but not impossible - listen to Dave Townsend playing morris tunes on "Portrait of a Concertina".

"For speed...selfevidently the english system is the "fastest" ...you use two hands for the same job as one with other systems"

The Irish style can be pretty fast, so this isn't self-evident, although as this style also tends to use two hands playing melody on both sides of the instrument there is some affinity with English Concertina. Harmonic styles, on both Anglo and Duet, usually favour slower tunes.

Although all three systems are called 'concertina' and share similar construction, in playing terms they are so different as to be separate instruments. The decision which system to go for is a difficult one, and the best guide is probably the type of music you want to play, and the system used by players you admire and want to emulate.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 02:31 PM

control is important, Guran, so is self discipline.
hobby horses end up becoming like the pub bore

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 01:20 PM

Just noticed this thread and of course I cannot control myself from trotting with this hobbyhorse of mine again:

The major difference between anglo and english concerning the option playing energetically and rhythmically is the HANDLE... ( i e the poor stability the english type offers) .It is in principle impossible to get the same bouncy rhythm as in trad morris anglo playing using an english....
UNLESS the handle is modified so that the stability ( the connection between hand and instrument) is enlarged. This can be done by using a steadier thumbstrap,combined with a wrist support, and a suitable wriststrap.. BUT of course this means that the available keyboard range is somewhat reduced. For most folk music however you may get along pretty well with 40 keys ( or even 32) You reach more buttons transversely ( as with the anglo or Jeffries or Hayden duet) than longitudinally ( as with the english)

For speed...selfevidently the english system is the "fastest" ...you use two hands for the same job as one with other systems

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM

It is easier to play at a fast speed on the english, but what is the feckin point the music is not about speed its about lilt and pulse and rythym, the anglo can be played faster if more row criossing and less bellows changes are used, but a lot of english players should slow down and change or articulate bellows control more often, the anglo because of bellows reversdals is naturally more rhytmic. for morris dancing it is imo really important for english players not to sludge notes. to articulate bellows by either reversing bellows or pulling bellows ryhtmically in the same direction, for northumbrian music finger attack and staccato can be used to stylistically emulate the northunbrian pipes

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Mjolnir
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 01:19 PM

How does playing at speed compare between English and Anglo? I understand that the intent of having consecutive notes on alternate sides of the English was to facilitate rapid play, but what does that amount to in practice? Watching videos on YouTube, it seems as though the things people play on Anglo tend not to have as dense a melody line, but how much of that is a property of the instrument itself, as opposed say to the types of music that people tend to use each instrument for?

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 04:19 AM

I was given a cheap 20 button D/A which makes for interesting playing sometimes :-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:38 AM

An Anglo doesn't have to be C/G. I use my G/D for sessions, for all types of music. I prefer the lower notes as well.

Robin

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM

yes ,however irish music in d major is often played up the c row, crossing to acciodentl row for c# and g row or other row for f#, but irish can be played using g as home row and polaying in d major just going to accidental row for c#,i believe chris droney does that.
all the systems hve advantages and disadvantages, i found english easiest, but i realise that was because i had played snare drum practising 5 stroke and 7 stroke rolls a lot, so had very good left right coordination

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:39 PM

Provided it is a 30 key there is no problem playing in D on a C/G Anglo. In fact a lot of Irish music is played in D on a C/G but I am either not that clever or not that way inclined ;-)

DtG

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Mjolnir
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 02:49 PM

Reviving this thread as a prospective concertina player.

I'm wondering what people would recommend for someone who'd be interested in playing contra dance tunes at some point in the future, as well as the occasional sea song. I've found a few critiques of anglos to the effect that modern dance tunes tend to be keyed to D, which can be a bit of a problem for an instrument tuned to C/G. I'm curious how much of a difficulty that really is, and whether an english or duet would be better suited to the sort of music I'm interested in.

Thanks

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 01:56 PM

try the Button Box.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 01:55 PM

Guest - Go to   concertina.net and report the theft. Then post your query there. Good luck - Tom

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 01:32 PM

My 48 key Stagi treble concertina was recently stolen from me at Port Authority in NYC and I'm trying to find one to replace it. Unfortunately, as a recent college graduate I really can't afford a new one at around $900. Would anyone on here know of someone looking to sell one, or a place to find used instruments? Thanks in advance for anything.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:18 PM

Ah, Ralphie, you've described the very first Anglo I ever played. I first saw it in about 1976 in Canberra and last saw it a year or so later in Melbourne. It had red leather straps, its reeds were accordion reeds and it was C/G. I've always wondered who the maker was.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM

Hmmm... although they're awkwardly laid out, I find them useful for Morris tunes - Lilliburlero, for example - as I play chords with the tune 'on top'.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

yes, but the buttons on the extreme right hand side,of the 30 key anglo,on the accidental row,and on the g row,are very squeaky,and are in my opinion not much use for chordal work .[I am talking about two buttons].

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:34 AM

Mmmm.
Playing McCann upside down.
Have just tried it.....Oo-Er missus!!!!
Very weird!!
Just as an aside, and to annoy any dogs reading this. When I was working with Nigel Chippendale in "Eric" He had a horrible looking (White Pearloid) 20 Key Anglo, (I think it was C/G) but it was tuned an octave up. Painful to listen to, but, always got a laugh when we played Telstar!!
I wonder what happened to it?
Regards Ralphie

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM

the Hayden Duet,can be played successfully in the same manner.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Rowan
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 06:52 PM

Models of the English concertina were made over the whole range of orchestral pitch, although only the original trebles were intented for orchestration as equivalent to voilins. Beyond the bass there is the contrabass, the lowest note of which is 26Hz; the human ear can't distinguish anything lower as a separate pitch. The reed for this note, BTW, is about 4" long, 3/4" wide and has a brass 'slab' rivetted to its free end to slow it down.

While on orchestrations, Percy Grainger wrote several peices with concertina parts and used Duets for them. From memory there are a couple in the Percy Grainger Museum and one of them is a 56 key Wheatstone. Also from memory, the parts required huge chords rather than dexterity in melody lines.

Another BTW; the McCann (Maccann.....etc) is, as far as I know, the only concer you an pick up upside down and still play successfully.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,JWB
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 08:51 PM

Sorry, hit the enter key too soon on that last post. Must be anonymous...

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,J
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 08:50 PM

Those high notes on the right hand side of my Anglo are just waiting for me to expand my skill enough to make use of them. I recently played a trio set with Bob Webb on McCann Duet, and Bob Walser on Anglo, and I doubled the melody an octave up in the key of G. I had a chance to practice, which allowed me to find the scale from G above middle C on up beyond the next G. Not particularly pleasant when playing solo, but it was fun as part of the trio.

Being reminded that those notes are there is a stimulus to figuring out how to use them in arrangements. Honestly, I believe I could work on the Anglo for another quarter century and still not explore all the possibilities. While I'm tempted to buy a concertina in other keys, there seems to be so much to learn about my C/G that it's hard to justify.

Jerry

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 02:12 PM

What I enjoyed with Brian Peters "Anglophillia" was his use of the higher notes on the right hand in his chord formations and I know this is something he lists as one of his interests.Chording on the right hand as well as the left is not practiced by many Anglo players and good on Brian to show us how it should be done.
Al

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM

Hello Anahata,the english is very good for playing octaves,octaves the english is also very good for playing chords,and they can be played very rythmically.
what is difficult [onthe english]is playing melody and accompaniment.
the secret lies in putting light chords on the offbeat.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 09:43 AM

"It is theoretically possible to play songs in other keys with the standard configuration concertinas but it does require learning new fingerwork patterns, some of which are awkward."

Funny how often I see or hear that said about diatonic/chromatic instruments.
It's like saying a piano keyboard is best for playing in C major, and it starts getting tricky in other keys.
Exactly the same is true of almost every instrument ever invented. The only difference is that to play classical music you have to learn all of those finger patterns, while in folk music you can get away with not bothering.

I'm quite lazy with the Anglo. Sometimes I think I ought to sit down with it and practice playing major and minor scales in all keys, going up a semitone at a time, like I used to (and still do sometimes) with the cello. I know I'd get quite good at it if I did it enough, that it would take months to perfect, and that I'd be able to play some amazing stuff eventually.

The only thing that the Anglo can really do better in C, F and G is use low notes as the basis for chords - there are big gaps in the scale at the low end. In the middle range, playing in remote keys is a simple matter of practice!

Similar with my Saltarelle 2½ row melodeon - fully chromatic over three octaves on the RHS, but let down on the chords and basses.
If I could be bothered to learn the fingerings for playing in other keys... some people have.

Anahata

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 07:15 AM

and possibly, Anglo players, may agree, about some of their very high notes being replaced with something more useful.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM

English concertinas come in various sizes. Treble corresponds to violin. I have a tenor-treble, equivalent to viola. There is the baritone, an octave below the treble with no stringed equivalent, and bass which I think covers the first position cello range.

Like Dick, I don't find much use for the top octave. I think Andy Norman, currently of Sussex soon to be of Shropshire, has been known to make a 36 key tenor.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM

yes,I have a 56 key tenor treble,although I dont use it quite as much as my 48 key,It being a little heavier on the wrists.its very useful for recording.
I hardly ever go above high c sharp[topstring on fiddle],I find the notes very squeaky,To my mind the idea of building a box, that has the range of the tenor treble without the notes above high d[on top string, fiddle]is quite a good one.Dick Miles.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 02:18 AM

I wish I hadn't started the food analogy now, this is just getting silly!
Greg B.
Dick M will no doubt correct me, but there is an English in a lower range (not sure precisely what, no doubt someone will enlighten me) called the Tenor-Treble.
I don't know how many were made, but I would suggest that the reason you don't see many coming up for sale is that they are just too damned useful! (Or the owners have a dog that they don't want to offend!)
Interesting price comparison SS
I don't think that you would get a new Wheatstone made by Mr Dickinson for that price. I can see him going apoplectic at the very thought!!!

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:30 PM

Just checked that out and the equivalent price in 2006 money would have been £803.44 !!

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM

Martin - rather syrupy concepts there. As to your food analogy - yup, if I was in the market for a non-stringed instrument at the moment you might well have sold the idea of a melodeon to me but, though I could go with the attraction of the Wagon Wheel and the cups of tea to follow, the use of the ketchup rather lost the vote for me there... so far Ralphie's argument is more persuasive, although I have to say that I'd always understood that in recent years meals at the Ivy were rather over-rated!! Just waiting now to see if a Jeffries player leaps into the fray to defend his blatant attack ... it's interesting sitting on the side-lines - i don't play a concertina, so what would I know???

Loved the link, BTW Diane, but mind you 12 guineas then would be worth a hell of a lot more now... might check that out and come back on it.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM

Captain Birdseye, of course it's a trade-off. It's a 'funny
note' and not exactly in the system, and I'd much prefer
a 56-key that went down the extra few notes rather than the
usual one which goes up so high that it calls only the dogs,
to the low F. For song accompaniment in usual keys, though
it's useful. Louis Killen swears by it.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM

Presumably she could make sweet music with someone and stick to the beet.

I'll get caned for that.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:08 AM

I could never understand the mindset of diatonic addicts and put it down to a surfeit of E numbers and sugar.

But I now find a player, Mary Baker, of the chromatically logical English to have been behind excess sugar production. And she bought her Wheatstone for 12 guineas.

Life is unfair.

Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:50 AM

Ralphie add this to your list:

Melodeon.......Pate de fois gras and black truffle on Mother's Pride with ketchup, hold the pickle. Tea, two sugars and a Wagon Wheel for afters.

Work that one out - I can't.