ocarolan query

Subject: ocarolan query
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 11:19 AM

Would anyone have any biographical information on the subject of the O'Carolan piece "Squire Parsons," or know anything about the incident(s) that inspired the music?

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:25 PM

It's not O'Carolan. It's Carolan, if the Carolan part is all you're using to identify him and his work.

If you use his first name (which I happen to disremember right at this moment, but isn't it Turlan?) it would be Turlan O Carolan. Note no apostrophe. Also, of course, no period.

Why?

The first and last name usage means "Turlan of the Carolans", but it's not English, and there's no "f" to drop to justify the apostrophe. And if you refer only to the family name it doesn't need the attributive O.

Dave (the pedant) Oesterreich

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Jeri
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:32 PM

I like to be pedantic too - can I play? It's "Turlough."

I don't have any info on the tune, but I'll see if I can find something.

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 01:07 PM

Check with Lesley the Contemplator or Bruce Olsen.

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: paddymac
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 02:02 PM

I just reviewed "The Complete Works of O'Carolan", which includes an 8-page bio by Grainne Yeats. The tune "Squire Parsons" is included, but the bio contains no mention of it, although there are several anecdotes included therein.

Dave - I claim no special talents in Gaelic, but my understanding of the patronymic prefixes "O" and "Mac/Mc" are that they are both demonstrative of families of gaelic origin, as opposed to the many other origins of surnames now common in Ireland, and the the "O" means "grandson of" and the "Mac/Mc" means "son of". Thus, in the original useage, "Turlough O'Carolan" would mean "Turlough, grandson of Carolan" rather than "Turlough of the Carolans". Your suggested "Turlough of the Carolans", is, however, an entirely reasonable interpretation applicable to the period after the 11th/12th century when surnames came into general use in Ireland. While proper gaelic useage might well decree the use, or not, of the prefix under variable circumstances, I think it's fair to say that modern English useage requires use of the prefix, as an essential element of the surname, in the same manner as the "fitz" prefix of Norman origin but now firmly established in Ireland. I think a shorter way to say all that is that there may be several "right" answers as to whether or not to use the prefix.

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:15 PM

Fairly recently there was a thread here which gave a link to a Turlough O Carolan site, which was VERY thorough in its biography etc. One point made very convincingly there is what I tried to point out in my earlier post.

I just tried the thread search, trying to find that thread with its link, but it's not working at the moment. I highly recommend the site I'm referring to, if you can find the link.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Catrin
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:34 PM

Hi Pintop,

Here's a a link to a site I found doing a google search. I found contemplator too, which looks really good, but I see Sorcha's already supplied the link to that one.

and here's another one

Good luck,

Catrin

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Lynn W
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:36 PM

Donal O'Sullivan in his book Carolan says that this tune "may be" by Carolan. He says "....The principal Parsons family in Ireland is that of the Earl of Rosse at Birr.... but Birr is outside Carolan's district, and if the tune was composed by him the subject is probably William Parsons of Garadice, County Leitrim. Garadice House stood on the shore of the pretty lake of that name......Carolan must have known the squire, because he would pass through Garadice on his way home to Mohill from the Maguires of Tempo. William Parsons died on the 29th March 1730."

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:41 PM

The time line at The Contmeplator's site says the tune was "probably composed before 1735" so a death date of 1730 fits nicely.

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 05:46 PM

Dave's remembered it quite well, but sadly not quite well enough for the pedant status to which he aspires. What he has part-remembered, I think, is this explanation. I won't repeat it here - it all comes down to opinion in the end anyway - I'll just urge folk to click the blue clicky. You'll find yourself in a wonderful site devoted to the said Turlough O'Carolan.

The thread Dave recalled is probably this one. It doesn't discuss the name spelling, but does include a link to the site above.

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Noreen
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 06:06 PM

The return of the pedant-in-chief... Welcome back, Fionn! :0)

Noreen

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Pinetop Slim
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 11:54 AM

Thanks for all the help. As for all the debate over whether to use O'...

Subject: RE: ocarolan query
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 05:20 PM

Fionn:

Oh, I'm a pedant, all right. I've just proven myself not so good a pedant, is all. :-D

Dave Oesterreich