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BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Lady McMoo Date: 30 Jan 01 - 12:00 PM I have never smoked in my life but, up until a couple of years ago, was doing up to 80 gigs a year, often in very smokey pubs. Some of these gigs were up to 4 or 5 hours. Like I think JulieB said above, I realised these gigs were actually making me feel very sick, probably a combination of a full day's day job, a couple of drinks, the excitement and adrenaline of playing, lack of sleep working into the wee hours and most of all, 4 or 5 hours of secondhand tobacco smoke. As I couldn't change the policy of the venues, and the level of smoking here in Belgium is incidentally far higher than anything I've encountered in the UK or the States and the attitude of smokers much more aggressive, the only option I had was to cut out those types of gigs completely. It was a joy to play in a couple of sessions last time I was in Boston as both pubs were non-smoking so far as I could see. I now do far fewer gigs but in places I know are smoke-free or, at least, well-ventilated. I regret this but there seems little else I can do if I'm going to keep my health. I'm not against freedom of choice in this matter but it does seem unfair that non-smokers have little choice other than to leave in many instances. Respectfully yours, mcmoo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,Bun Date: 30 Jan 01 - 11:29 AM I would not mind going to a non smoking folkclub, as long as someone told me in advance. the building I work in is all no smoking, I have got used to it. We stand outside like convicts! I try to be a responsible smoker, I would not dream of blowing smoke in someones face, or smoking if it upset people - I always ask. I love to in a huddle with two or three smokers, having a chat and a laugh. Its become such an anti social thing to do, that it makes you bond - a fellow leper! Bun |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: KingBrilliant Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:03 AM Jon - that's true. But someone else's cig-smoke in your face is a much more personal and immediate form of pollution for both parties. Hence more emotive. Kris |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Jon Freeman Date: 30 Jan 01 - 06:52 AM "How is it that smokers always make it out to be a matter of THEIR right to poison others? Where excatly did that right come from? I don't remember reading about it in the U.S. Constitution; do they have that right in Canada? UK? Curious in Seattle" I've just been re-reading this thread and question just occured to me: Don't most people, including non-smokers, defend this right to drive a car, to fly,etc. and isn't the effects of this pollution likely to do more damage than cigarette smoke? Curious in Llandudno. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: kendall Date: 29 Jan 01 - 09:44 AM I'm not about to defend smoking, but, it seems to me that if one can not afford to turn down a gig in a smoking venue, how can one afford the throat problems that might arise? When that happens, you cant sing at all! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Julie B Date: 29 Jan 01 - 08:31 AM I haven't seen any mention yet of vocal nodes/nodules within this thread. For anyone who's not familiar with them, and what they can mean for a singer, it's easy to find many sad stories on the web. For medical information, with good photos, see http://www.connectingvoices.com/current/9701/technical/9701t3_MD/9701t3_2.htm where it's expalined that the best way of avoiding vocal problems is avoiding smoke and smoky environments as often as possible. As an amateur, I don't have to sing, but my heart goes out to professionals who practice for years and then develop nodules because they cannot afford to say 'no' to singing in smoky venues. (If interested see related post from an affected singer on 'Non-smoking venues in the UK' thread). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: kendall Date: 27 Jan 01 - 01:27 PM thats MORE than a river.. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: kendall Date: 27 Jan 01 - 09:52 AM I used to come up with some unique excuses for smoking, bur, Clinton, you are a genius at it! One of my favorites was: "Any wimp can quit smoking, it takes a man to face cancer." Another ..a friend of mine had quit for some time, then took it up again. When I commented on it he said "I just got tired of being a slave to my willpower." And, my alltime favorite, "Denial is maor than a river in AFRICA" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,LEJ Date: 26 Jan 01 - 12:50 PM I quit smoking (tobacco) in 1980, but my group plays mainly in Taverns and Roadhouses where smoking is almost a requirement. Doesn't seem to bother me much, except that your clothing becomes saturated with it. I can see where a non-smoking policy would be beneficial in most folk venues where the nature of the music is a bit more, er, subtle? |
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Subject: In the red courner! From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Jan 01 - 12:29 PM Cigarette ash is NOT litter... like any other ash it's actually good for plants... I do not smoke in my car, so I don't flick butts out the window... And I light with strike anywhere matches... not that I really 'care' for the environment'... what's yer house made out of? trees, toxic paint, and fiberglass insulation I'll bet... To say nothing of the tar shingles ont he roof... So welcome to your glass house eh! And speaking of glass houses, with american choking the world with it's emissions, and clogging it's arteries with it's garbage, a few smoke packs aren't really gonna make a difference at all.... We may as well drop this whole fecking thing though... No one side is gonna convince the other, and we're so far off tipic it's not even funny! Didn't there used to be a folk music Message board around here somewhere? p.s. The world is whatever I want it to be... Don't like it? Tough! Stop me... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: kendall Date: 26 Jan 01 - 09:58 AM Bumper sticker in the USA The world is not your ashtray. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dunc Date: 26 Jan 01 - 07:05 AM Hey Clinton - Are you one of the tens of thousands of smokers who don't regard cigarette ends, ash, matches, empty disposable lighters, empty cigarette packets, etc. etc. as litter? Are you one of the legions of smokers who throw the lit remnants of their cigarettes out of their vehicles as the drive along not giving a care for where it ends up? I can't be sure - but my guess is that you may be. |
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Subject: And then there's the extream case From: Clinton Hammond Date: 26 Jan 01 - 01:24 AM Hey Hes... no offence, but if yer so allergic to smoke that walking past a smoker outside bothers you, you have way bigger problems!! What can I say, you got dealt a lousy hand... better cross the street if ya see me coming trailing a cloud of white smoke, cause I love to walk around the wild west end in winter, puffin like a steam train... especially at night... and if we're ever in the same non-smoking folk club, ya might wanna keep yer distance, cause I'll likley reek of the one I just stomped out on my way in... Enjoy the show eh! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST Date: 25 Jan 01 - 10:40 PM Our city passed an ordinance a few years ago banning smoking from all indoor public place - except bowling alleys and bars. However, my favorite local brew pub is non-smoking and they do just fine. I'm sure it helps that "none of our beers suck" and the music and food are good, too. I go there for all of the above reasons. . . and avoid a couple other places which have good food and music, and fairly decent beer- because smoking is allowed. It all seems to be a matter of preference and I haven't heard of any place in town going out of business because smoking was no longer allowed inside. Cheers, PoohBear |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: hesperis Date: 24 Jan 01 - 11:44 PM Wow. I haven't read this thread for a few days, so bear with me... this is going to be long!
"Just don't go there" I don't. I am almost a prisioner in my apartment because of it. Actually, I moved into a "non-smoking building" and then a year later the landlord changed his mind. Tried to find an apartment, the only non-smoking and no pets places were over $600 per month, and at the time, I was on a fixed income of $520. So I'm still living in the same place. "smoker would rather avoid the places where smoking is banned" - you think that's a convincing argument? I avoid places where smoking is, and that happens to be anywhere outside my apartment. Lovely social life I'm allowed to have because of your choices to smoke! Actually, I would rather there were no laws against smoking inside public buildings, because ever since those laws came into play, I haven't been able to avoid the stuff. Walk down the street, and get a lungful. Before, I could walk down the street, at least. I couldn't go into any stores or restaurants, but I could walk! I could get my shopping done without coughing. Yes, I know it's an addiction. But you know what, clean air is a NEED. Go without food for a few months - you'll live. Go without water for a few days - you'll live. Go without air for a few minutes - you're kaput. So go feed your addiction somewhere else! MT - you tell many smokers, (not all of them, thank god!) that you need clean air, and they will think that you are trying to force them to give it up completely, or ban smoking completely, or in any way, try to force your choices down their throats. And you know why? Because just by lighting up in a public place, theiy are forcing their choice down your throat --- and they know it. That and a lot of smokers are "trying to quit". So if you don't smoke, or need them not to smoke, they feel guilty, and try to shift the blame. pseudolus - "extremists come out of the woodwork ". Well, of course. To some people, this is a matter of health and public safety. We already know that health isn't that important a value for most smokers. DtG - 'one week on - one week off' would not satisfy everyone. Have you ever seen the inside of a building that has been smoked in, even for a little while? The walls go yellow, dark spots appear even through fresh paint, drapes and curtains still smell of smoke. It's because the particles are still in the walls. You would have to start with a new building, or a room that hasn't been smoked in, if you wanted to please non-smokers. If you wanted to please the majority of non-smokers, merely fresh paint every few months, and dry-cleaning all the fabrics in the room would be tolerable. That wouldn't help me right now, but for most people, it would be ok. I know someone who was a chainsmoker until she moved into this one place. She saw it before it had been painted, and that was it! Cold turkey. Also, did you know that most people who smoke and are addicted to it, are actually allergic to it? Metchosin - "supposed concern for others health" - God, no! I'm concerned for my own. And that of the people I care about. My mother is actually worse with smoke than I am, because she smoked for a while. A few years later, she found out that she was allergic to it, and it really makes her ill. Many smokers obviously don't care about anyone's health, and least of all their own. "The non-smokers, by and large seem to be a less gregarious and cheerful lot" Of course. You try hiding out all your life, and then finally have it be somewhat safe. See how outgoing and gregarious you are! DtG - "How is being disabled in one of the more obvious ways different to being disabled by a dibilitating allergy" Allergies aren't legally recognized. As I know from personal experience of being harassed to get a job while I was really sick at home and "on the system". And the doctors could only give me temporary exemptions for "depression", which happens to be one of the symptoms of allergy. Funny, that's also one of the symptoms of addiction withdrawal... GaryT - "having a reasonably accessible smoking area with some protection from the elements. " YES! And good education about smoking, and places that really do help people quit, for free. And legislation to phase out the tobacco industry, that actually gives them something else to play with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,kendall Date: 24 Jan 01 - 07:08 PM Neither is allowed in Maine folk clubs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Les from Hull Date: 24 Jan 01 - 03:52 PM The notice on the wall at Nellie's (White Horse Folk Club, Beverley) asks for 'minimum smoking, please.' A very sensible approach. Maggie and I share a roll-up (as mentioned much earlier in the thread, they are less 'smokey'. You see, we only smoke when were drinking. And nobody has suggested a 'non-drinking' folk club yet as far as I know. Les |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Jan 01 - 05:13 AM "will be netter than your club" - should read better than... Although, obviously, my preef rooding isn't DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Jon Freeman Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:39 AM petr, I am not sure about your thoughts on taxes - I guess it pretty much depends on where you live. Where I live in Wales in the UK, 50g of Golden Virgina cost around œ8 and I belive that the going rate for 50g on the black market round here is œ3.50. The black market stuff will have been made over here, shipped to Europe (say France), bought legitimately over there, smuggled back to the UK and distributed and the final seller can still make a profit selling at œ4.50 less than the shops? I reckon that UK smokers make a huge and unfair contribution! Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Jan 01 - 04:10 AM Spot says "Dave The G. is this the same club we a talking about? :-)" Dunno, Spot - PM to let me know who you are and I will know better! Sounds like we have the same problem even if we are in different places - perhaps we should compare notes anyway. Seeing as Swinton will be netter than your club anyway (it is better than most) you may even learn a thing or two;-) Cheers DtG
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,kendall Date: 23 Jan 01 - 07:42 PM I've been planning to return for years now..the first trip I made there was with the love of my life who has since moved on. I still find it hard to visit certain places. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dunc Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:25 PM You can check out the NO SMOKING venue of Glenfarg Village Folk Club at http://www.glenfargvillagefolkclub.freeserve.co.uk/ |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dunc Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:20 PM Glenfarg Village Folk Club goes from strength to strength. It had its 21st annual festival last year. I became involved with the club about six years ago - spent 4 years as secretary and a short time as Chairman of the club. I don't know Chick McHardy but Garberlunzie still live in the village of Glenfarg and still perform all over Scotland. The guy who did all the bookings for the club when you visited was a Jim McIver from Perth. Where are you now and when are you coming back over to Perthshire? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,Kendall Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:09 PM Hey Dunc... I have fond memories of the Glenfarg Folk Club. I performed there 10 years ago last August and enjoyed it very much. Do you ever bump into a chap named Chick McHardy? I think he lives in Kinross...Also a duo called Gaberlunzie? Gordon Menzies set up my tour over there, and, it has been one of the high spots in my life..love Scotland, and the Scots. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dave Wynn Date: 23 Jan 01 - 03:50 PM When I smoked I tried to be sensitive to non smokers but did believe in my freedom to smoke provided it was in a smoke designated area. Now I am a non smoker I try to be sensitive to the needs of smokers provided they are in a smoke designated are. I didn't blow smoke in non smoking areas and I don't complain if a designated smoking area is smokey. It's a simple philosophy (from a simple guy!). The democracy thing is a non starter (I mean in this specific scenario not in general). It is unfair (strangely , I believe this) to force a totalitarian policy onto a minority via democracy. I would prefer to make the decision as one of the owners of the club and stand by the results. This way we take the flack and don't divide the patrons. We are occasionally lobbied by patrons and visiting performers for a no smoking venue and equally vociferously , but by fewer numerically , to remain a smoking permitted venue. We will have to bite the bullet eventually I think. Dave The G. is this the same club we a talking about? :-) Spot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Metchosin Date: 23 Jan 01 - 03:50 PM point, set and match. Told you so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dunc Date: 23 Jan 01 - 03:33 PM As a member of the Glenfarg Village Folk Club in Perthshire, Scotland, I was going home smelling like an ashtray. One night my daughter told me not to come anywhere near her as I STANK !!! That was the last straw for me. I called a club meeting which had a near 100% turnout of the membership. It was heated, passionate and emotional, but by a massive percentage the membership passed a NO SMOKING rule at the venue. Two members were insenced and never came back but the overall membership has risen and we very rarely (if ever) get any complaints from smokers. Do it! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,petr Date: 23 Jan 01 - 01:46 PM dave the gnome, I would say the smokers tax & hence entitlement to more benefits doesnt really work. The tax is more than offset by medical expenses for smoking related diseases.(which arent exclusive to smokers) 5000 people die in BC due to smoking related causes. (this doesnt include people fumbling for a cigarette while driving (or getting that hot ash on their laps) and causing accidents or fires etc.) dumping their disgusting ashes all over the place |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: John Routledge Date: 23 Jan 01 - 01:15 PM Excellent sentiments Gary T Cheers GB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Clinton Hammond Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:51 PM Ya tilly... it's supposed to be a folk club, not an AA meeting eh! Hhhhheeeeeyyyy! Maybe that's the answer... I'll join AA just so I can smoke as much as I want! LOL!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:45 PM How would it work if the Folk Clubs followed the Lines of a Democracy?? Try having a vote on smoke free evenings and/or clubs. If you lose, have another one in about 10 years time, you will probably win. Smokers are a dying breed after all is said and done! JohnB |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Julie B Date: 23 Jan 01 - 12:04 PM I like the post from Gary T. The clubs I do go to have smokers, but largely of the considerate kind (i.e. just smoke one or two in the break, sometimes go out). The clubs I never returned to contained rooms full of chain smokers, who seemed to revel in their ability to 'get up the noses' of the long-suffering non-smokers (who complained to me privately, but said they didn't feel they could raise the issue publicly as "it's always been this way". I really respect those smokers who are 'big' enough to make a compromise..like you Gary!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Jon Freeman Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:45 AM You make a lot of sense Bill. I am not sure what to think about drugs and legislations (I tend towards ALL drugs being legal even though nicotine and alcohol are my only 2 poisons - I am too scared to get addicted to more altough I have cannabis which makes me feel ill). I believe that your thoughts on small qtys of alcohol being beneficial may be correct... I guess I wish the damn things never existed in the first place. Jon .. mind you, non alocholic Glenmorangie Bill.... ?? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Bill D Date: 23 Jan 01 - 11:09 AM Jon...I do understand your differentiation about using 'substances'...I have no idea why it works that way. My brother was much like you. I suspect I may simply be lucky that I am not drawn to smoke, and can drink without abusing it. I do know that nicotine and tar are unhealthy in any amounts, while alcohol..within limits...can even be beneficial. I would never try to ban alcohol, but merely try to figure out more ways to deal with it. Tobacco, on the other hand, I would like to see gradually disappear...I wonder how those whose genetic 'wiring' makes tobacco attractive would live if they had never heard of it. ...I truly do have sympathy for those who are addicted, but I have NO sympathy for the tobacco companies who flatly LIED for many years about the truth regarding their products! (It may be hard for regular smokers to realize how difficult it can be to cope when someone CANNOT stand smoke... I had a friend who once had a reservation at a motel..and had requested a non-smoking room...When she arrived, they tried to give her a room that had simply been cleaned and ashtrays removed...and she was barely a foot inside the door when she knew...! She had to wait an hour till a REAL non-smoking room was ready...(Yeah..it was a cheaper motel...still...*sigh*) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Gary T Date: 23 Jan 01 - 10:06 AM I smoke. I try to be considerate towards non-smokers, and by and large I find they are considerate to me. I like pizza, but I HATE green (bell) peppers. If a pizza has been cooked with green peppers on it, the taste permeates every bite even if the peppers are taken off before I eat it. There's no getting away from it. I gather from talking to friends that smoke likewise permeates the air (even outdoors if not too far away), as well as lingering in clothing, furniture, car interiors, etc. If it's around (or has been around, in some cases), they will suffer. Reactions of non-smokers to smoke and its residue ranges from mild annoyance to significant physical sickness. Much as I appreciate the convenience of being able to light up in my seat at a restaurant or show, I must concede that it is far easier for me to step outside for 5 minutes than for someone sensitive to smoke to bear its effects the entire time they're in the place. Thus I cannot in good conscience condemn non-smoking venues, though I am allowed to resent them a bit (BG, but a grain of truth). It would seem to me that the majority of smokers can adapt to a non-smoking venue more comfortably than the majority of non-smokers can adapt to a smoking one. It helps a great deal, and is only considerate, to make accommodation for smokers when feasible--having a reasonably accessible smoking area with some protection from the elements. There are enough differences between smoking and drinking, and between smoke-sensitivity and other physical handicaps, to make comparisons and analogies in those areas valid only in certain narrow senses. I don't have a case history to share, but I would have to say that offering a smoke-free atmosphere, along with the most convenient smoking area possible, seems to make the most sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Clinton Hammond Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:55 AM Kinda, kendal... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,kendall Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:35 AM I repeat.. I have to breathe..you DONT have to smoke.Look, if you are in a non smoking venue, and, you "Need" a smoke, it makes sense to take the stink outside. That only takes a few minutes. However, if I'm in a smoking venue, does it make sense for me to leave just to get some unpolluted air? You would miss a few minutes, I would miss most of the show. And that remark about "smoke belching cars" there again, we are dependent on our cars..we must drive..you dont have to smoke. Ok, enough of the devils advocate stuff..I dont go into places where smoking is permitted because they are probably in the majority, conversely, you smokers have the choice to come in or stay out. In other words When in Rome, do as Romans do. Isn't this basically what you were trying to say Clinton? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:25 AM Apolgies Clinton - thought you was in Windsor, UK. I retract the remark about you not coming to our Mudcat 'do' - guess it was a bit far! If you had have been there or at any of our regular folk nights you would see we are far from dull. I should have guessed by the name you were in the wrong Windsor...;-) DtG |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Julie B Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:17 AM I feel very happy to see this debate. I get very poorly from being in smokey venues...it sadly took me years to realise this; I just thought I was forever 'catching a bug!'. I even gave the office christmas party a miss this year.. and guess what? I had my first 'cold free' Christmas for years. I only go to 2 of 5 local folk clubs, as the other three are very smokey. My friends also feel and do the same. There is a big demand for smoke free pubs, but, because the non-smokers usually feel too guilty to complain and say how they feel, I don't know if you will get them very soon!!! The smokers are far more vocal! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Jan 01 - 08:12 AM Hi Clinton - good points but.... 1. I wouldn't complain about the noise either. You HAVE to have noise at at a motor cycle rally - you DO NOT HAVE to have smoking at a folk club. 2. I am not equating non-smokers to disabled. The anolgy was aimed your other illustration ("if yer a non-smoker or allergic... tough". How is being disabled in one of the more obvious ways different to being disabled by a dibilitating allergy? 3. Start my own non-smoking venue? This is my folk club. I started it 20 years ago with a couple of mates. I run it. I book and pay the acts. I take the flack from militant smokers when I suggest we might try the occasional non-smoking night! What else do you suggest I do? 4. The local venues do well with or without my money - so do the local pushers and prostitutes. What does this mean? 5. "less gregarious and cheerful". Dunno where this came from - not me for sure. 6. "Sounds like a pretty damn dull crowd!" - Were you not at the (smoking) Mudcat gathering in our club with others from all over the country? I guess not. 7. What has all this got to do with the original question anyway (Go to the top of the thread and look at the question). Or is this just a smokescreen.... (Yuk!) Cheers Dave the Gnome
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Subject: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Clinton Hammond Date: 23 Jan 01 - 07:28 AM Dave... 1... Depends how radical a non-smoker you are... I wouldn't go to a motorcycle rally and complain about the noise...
2... You don't seriously think that being an non smoker and being handicapped are even remotly the same thing do you?!?!?! Smoking or nonsmoking is a personal choice... Disabled isn't!
What I say to you, if yer so concerned that your area has no non-smoking venue, maybe you 'd better start one... There's no pub in Windsor where I can order chinese food while getting a foot massage... and there likely won't be until -I- open one... Evidently, you local venues are doing quite well without your $$... and that's the bottom line! "less gregarious and cheerful" Sounds like a pretty damn dull crowd! LOL!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Metchosin Date: 23 Jan 01 - 06:30 AM Very interesting thread, I wasn't going to touch it with a ten foot pole. The vitriol about non-smoking/smoking venues has been going on here in B.C. for about the past ten years and after awhile it gets tedious, because some feel that it gives them a God given right to be rude. But from what I have read Dave and personal experience, I don't think your week on/week off will satisfy the anti-smoking lobby.
The unfortunate thing, seemingly not satisfied having the public venue law passed in B.C., some non-smokers continue to harangue smokers, when they comply and take their habit to the street outside of public buildings. Smokers outside continue to be regaled by passing non-smokers, who use their supposed concern for others health, as an excuse to be publicly rude and intrusive into another's life, then smugly step into their fume belching cars and buses, comforting themselves with the fact that they have done a good deed and reinforcing their sense of superiority.
Clinton, further to the non-smoking situation in B.C. in bars, pubs, restaurants and other public places, from what I have observed, despite the law, quite a few smoking pubs and bars still openly exist in contravention of the by-law. Does that still give us Canadian staus? I guess smokers just butt out when the by-law enforcement officer is in the vicinity. In those pubs where there is no smoking inside, where the space is available, most owner's have got around the by-law by covering outside patios with awnings, tent walls and wall mounting gas heaters for those that still want to smoke. It works on the coast, but I have not been up to Ft. St. John to see what it is like at forty below. My brother (an ardent non-smoker), who regularly plays at one of the now totally non smoking pubs (before and after the law), has noticed a significant change and decline in clientele, particularly in the off season, since the law came into effect. The non-smokers, by and large seem to be a less gregarious and cheerful lot than those in attendance before the bylaw. He's sometimes a bit whistful. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Jon Freeman Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:46 AM DTG, just try the non-smoking club, it could turn out to be the best move you have made (and this is coming from a hardened smoker who would be unlikely to attend). I'm not sure whether you and Spot The Dog are representing the same club or not but I seem to remember that you both live in the Manchester area (or Stockport? - all seems to me living in N Wales to be pretty much the same area) where there must be a big catchment area which is likely to have a number of people not going out to folk clubs for reasons mentioned by the non-smokers in this thread. On reflection, your situation(or situations) is rather different to where I am as folk players (and potential audience) are so few - i.e. there is a lot less room to cater for smoking and non-smoking venues here. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Jan 01 - 04:07 AM Clinton says 1. "If I'm in a place where I can't smoke and I really gotta have one, I go the hell somewhere else... if it's so easy for a smokers to do, why is it so hard for a non-smoker to do??" Its so hard for me to do because there just ain't any no-smoking folk venues in my area - Are you saying that because I don't smoke I should not be allowed to attend folk clubs??? and also 2. "But in a place where smoking is unrestriced... if yer a non-smoker or allergic... tough... life sucks... get a helmet... Just don't go there?!?! Isn't that the mature thing to do rather than going to such a place and expecting to get your own way???" In a place where there is no disabled access - if you are disabled - tough - life sucks. Is this realy acceptable??? Sorry but these arguments do not realy stand up to close scrutiny. I will happily give you a good argument for smoking - You pay more taxes than non-smokers and should therefore get some additional benefits! It's the only one which I could use and keep a straight face when I used to smoke. I'll think of counter sooner or later but it is a tough one! I do agree with your general theme though - lets have non-smoking and unrestricted smoking venues. I would be more than happy with that as long as there are some non-smoking folky venues. After reading the thread I think we need to have a 'one week on - one week off' trial at our club - would that satisfy everyone??? Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Jon Freeman Date: 23 Jan 01 - 03:38 AM Bill, I don't know how typical I am of smokers but there is a BIG difference between enjoying a substance and not being able to enjoy oneself without a substance. I fall into the latter category. Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Clinton Hammond Date: 22 Jan 01 - 10:08 PM Bill D... my point exactily... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Dave Wynn Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:25 PM Thank you all, I have read everything to date and will talk with the other two organisers. Just to round up what I have read here. It's probably going to be difficult. We need to be very diplomatic and care for peoples freedoms while trying to cater for majority opinion. If we were to use a poll of the audience we know the majority are non smokers and we know they would support a non smoking policy. We are not a democratic club . We are three persons who own and run the club. What we say goes in the end and it's up to the club patrons to vote with their feet. This is not trying to sound hard edged but just stating the reality. We are all ex smokers who quit (3 years ago) but the real reason I asked for advice was that one night we had to put on the extractor fan because the room was uncomfortably thick with smoke and got some earache from two smokers (regular singers) about the fans noise. A jolly discussion evolved around the lines of this thread with no conclusion. Please do not continue the devisive postings ...I wanted advice and contruction not division. (or please continue if you are enjoying it , I wouldn't like to interfere with anyones freedoms ;-) I promise I will post another thread (for those who are interested) with our decision and results. Spot. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Bill D Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:23 PM lordy, I am tired of stupid 'guests' who bait and attack without the courage to sign their name |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: Bill D Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:18 PM confessions may be in order...though I have never had ONE puff from a cigarette,I tried..30 years ago to smoke a pipe. There are SUCH interesting tobaccos and elegant, interesting pipes...and it dod NOT involve inhaling...but as I read, I realized that ALL smoke has dangers, and I just never was very good at it...I'd carry the pipe around and forget to light it....so, when I met Rita, and she was allergic to it, I simply gave it up...... anyone wanta buy several VERY nice pipes? Meerschaum and a couple other quite nice,different models...*grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Smoking vs Non Smoking Venues From: GUEST,Grim Reaper Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:12 PM Hey Clinton Hammond...Keep on smoking! You'll see me sooner than later. Oh, by the way, you do know that you stink like a filthy ashtray. |