Tech: Cut Back on HTML

Subject: Cut Back on HTML
From: Max
Date: 04 Oct 97 - 10:47 AM

Hi, just wanted to throw a warning to those who use HTML and images in the forum. I noticed that it is increasing and effecting the Forum. I am adding measures to compensate but sometimes if you mess up a tag or forget to end-tag, the rest of that thread is caught in your code. Also I see some rather large images being posted. This is a no-no and may not make you popular witht the boys and girls that call this home. I am may go into the database and strip all HTML soon. For speed sake. Enlarging all your text is a bad idea and interupts to flow of the discussion. Just take all this as a note.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Oct 97 - 12:43 PM

"I may go into the database and strip all HTML soon"

that has an ominous ring, Max-I hope that does not mean we could not post 'live' links?
...I have tried to be reasonable and take your guidance about using images, and I don't think I have used anything larger than the t-shirt images...you said in the chat room that the server could handle them. Do you now mean that that has changed, or just that some users will have more trouble than others loading them?
This is like a very large house we all live in here, and we need to take care that we respect everyone else....as the 'landlord', you need to give us the clearest guidance possible about what the limits are, and I am sure that we will all try to stay within them

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Max
Date: 04 Oct 97 - 01:33 PM

I do not have a stylistic problem with images... but...

If an image is in a thread, and the link to the image is slow and or bad, the rest of the thread will load very slowly or not at all. Also, if one forgets to end a tag, it will apply whatever tag he used to the rest of the thread. So if someone makes their text 30 foot flaming letters, and forgets to end tag, the whole thread will be 30 foot flaming letters. Also, if one forgets to end a link tag, the whole thread will be hot. Links are very cool though, and I like them so I will leave all links.

It is just lately, speed has become a very talked-about issue, and the images being posted are getting larger. Since I am not going to delete old messages to thin out the database, thinning non-essential elements of the forum is the next step to make this the most efficient system possible.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Joe Offer
Date: 04 Oct 97 - 02:34 PM

Well, Max, please don't delete the Winnie-the-Pooh pictures until Shula gets to see them. She's be back Saturday night or Sunday.
Thinks seem to be very fast now, faster then they've ever been. You said something about Microsoft Internet Explorer slowing down the Net. Is that because of the volume caused by downloading a million browsers, or the "push" technology that automatically searches sites for new information, or what?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: RS
Date: 04 Oct 97 - 02:45 PM

I presume we could still use the "br" to end lines! (Now that I have finally figured out how to do it ...)

And Joe Offer's "Now, that's what I call FRESH" in the "Another New Feature" thread, would have been a grin but not a laugh, without the LARGE FONT (which I can't replicate yet!)

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Max
Date: 04 Oct 97 - 07:10 PM

The Microsoft thing with IE is that it downloads components of the browser as it needs them instead of one download and one insallation. It actually insalls over the net. And yes, that is push technology.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: dani
Date: 04 Oct 97 - 09:24 PM

I am abashed and sorry. The farthest thought from my mind was disturbing the peace. I am reformed. Dani

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Dick Wisan
Date: 05 Oct 97 - 12:37 AM

If "strip all HTML" means we get simple ASCII, where
things stay where you put 'em, well enough. If it
means you give us these HTML pages but remove the
BR's and P's and things, so we're back to where we
were before we figured out how to make this blasted

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Dick Wisan
Date: 05 Oct 97 - 12:40 AM

Hey! Why did mine --my last one-- come out on top?

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: gargoyle
Date: 05 Oct 97 - 11:29 PM

If I WANTED cutesy pictures - I would go to newsgroups that featured them. I want DIALOGUE on folk music - THAT is the attraction of the Mud-Cat.

Keep this the type of educational quality that has warrented its references by the Smithsonian Institution. There are millions of "Winnie-the-Poohs" on the Net. There is only ONE "MUD-CAT CAFE!!" Keep it legit!!

Dump the HTML - notepads are best for scholars.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Shula
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 06:41 AM

A thought: Wouldn't everyone be satisfied with a workable compromise? How about, if you really want to share an image, NOT replicating it here (clogging the files and alarming our beloved benefactors), but posting a hyperlink to it (Max thinks these are "very cool" -- distinctly heard him say so!)? Then we can get creative without overloading the forum or having to feel guilty afterward, and the gargoyle can simply move to the next posting with its feathers un-ruffled.

Another thought: If Max ever gets the jukebox going in the cyber-pub, he could SELECTIVLY post really pertinent, aesthetic or generally worthwhile images on a gallery page, updated weekly or monthly. But that can wait. The man gets no sleep as it is!

A final word: This operation needs more than our praises and blessings. Suppose we were, each of us, to set up a "pushke" (a collection box for what we call in English, "Charity", but in Hebrew, "JUSTICE" [tzedakah]) right beside our monitors, and every time we access The Mudcat Forum or the DT, we put in a dime, or a quarter, and an extra penny or nickel for each time we post to a thread. (Slips of paper as I.O.U. reminders could serve in a pinch.) At the end of each month we could send in our voluntary tolls by check or M.O. , and thus ensure that (to borrow from the T-shirt thread) Music OF the People, BY the People and FOR the People shall not perish from the Web! Lets get the New Year off to an horourable start by supporting the source of our mutual enjoyment.

"JUSTICE, JUSTICE SHALT THOU PURSUE!"

Shula

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Jon W.
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 10:59 AM

Writing HTML is a lot like programming - you never know how it will come out until you run it through the computer. With that in mind, there are two solutions I can think of for the problem of missing end tags (and perhaps other problems).

Solution 1:
We need a way to preview our handiwork before it gets posted to the thread. Add a "Preview" button down by the "Submit Message" and "Clear Entries" buttons.

Solution 2:
We need a way to correct our postings (for a while, at least) - an "edit" button could come up at the bottom of new entries to a thread, for say an hour or so, so that the person posting the entry, and only him/her, could correct it if necessary. I've seen this on another forum, see the thread "More work for Max." This would probably require HTML to be restricted to only registered users, as the cookie would no doubt be needed to accomplish this.

Of course, if you try anything fancy (especially links) you should at least re-read your message immediately after posting to be sure it worked.

Generally, though, I agree - except for line breaks and links, there's not much use for much other HTML in this forum. Besides, I don't know how to do that other stuff anyway-).

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Max
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 12:33 PM

Shula: It is just as much of a problem making a hyperlink to an image. If the server it is on goes down or is slow, it will hold up the listing of the threads. Also images are becomaing a pain when I try to fit messages into tables and the like. The minimum size of the table becomes the width of the widest image. Though this is a multimedia environment, so images should be able to be used.

I am working on a method in which members can edit their messages. Dick and I have an Admin version of the threads that we can go in and delete and edit threads and messages (if you've noticed double posts disapearing, this is why). But Dick and I can only do so much and we cannot let just anyone to have this power. So I am working on a way that lets you edit or delete only messages you posted. The tricky part here is not to affect the non-members enjoyment. Shouldn't be long.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Shula
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 01:02 PM

Hey Max, sorry; thought you'd given your imprimatur to hyperlinks. (See above.) Can see the bottleneck now that you point it out. No problem just leaving an URL is there, -- which is all I do, anyway? With an extra click or two, that still lets us share our "finds." For example, this gets my vote as "the graphic I'd most like to pinch for the wee bairnies of my acquaintance: http://www.lightwizard.com/Camelot/ (Ignore the scary warning, nothing bad happens.) further down the same page is another, equally enchanting, though smaller, image. Cynics and critics be warned: this one's for those young enough to believe in magic, not for you lot.

Would love editing capability. Hate wasting a new post on stupid little flubs. Max, Dick, have often wished I could tidy up the threads. You mean to say there is actually a way to do it?!

Curtseying to the wizards,

Shula

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: kibitzer
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 02:04 PM

I don't see hyperlinks as a problem-pages all over the net are FULL of hyperlinks that don't work! If I click on a link that does not work, or is slow, that slows ME down, but it won't affect anyone else! This is not like placing an 'inline' image here in a thread where it slows down anyone who tries to load the thread. (Unless I am missing something obvious...why would a link to an image be any different than a link to anything else?)..Addresses can always be posted as copy-and-paste:
--http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=2989&messages=13#14014
but that gets a little long!

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Charles
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 02:29 PM

A few months ago I was using Eudora and the system identified links automatically (it just decreted that anything starting with http:// was a link).

If we do need to abandon html in the forum, would that be a workable compromise? We get type-writer formatting to line up our text as we like, and web addresses we paste in become automatically clickable.

That said the best would be if we learnt to be careful with html tags.

Charles

Subject: Oops
From: Charles
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 02:32 PM

Ahem. What was I saying about html tags. Charles.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Jack (who is called jack)
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 03:21 PM

I am not arguing for or against links in forum postings per se, nor do I claim to speak for Dick or Max, but if people have links to sites that might interest DT subscribers please post them to the LINKS PAGE which Max created for just that purpose. Adding them is really easy, and you can classify them and include descriptions of what they contain.

Best Regards, Jack

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Joe Offer
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 05:15 PM

Hmmmmmmm.What is that [tt] command supposed to do, Jack? I think I found the problem. Instead of closing it with a slash, you repeated it. Hope this gets things back on track.
Max, when you say hyperlinks to images slow down the forum, are you referring to links that display images within the forum, or to the clickable links that actually take us to another Web site?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Max
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 10:05 PM

clickable links are of no harm. They can get anoying if they are bad links. But yes, we do have a links section. I do not care if you post links here and/or there. Images however are not links but loaded items. They are activated upon loading the thread. A link just sits there until you click it, while images load by themselves. It is the images that have the potential of slowing this forum down.

This has gotten to be a much more discussed item than I anticipated. My original idea was to stop the large text and the italics and the bolds etc, and not all or just that. It is only when what is in your message effects things outside your message or interupts the flow of the forum. If you post a message in a really large font, your going to annoy the readers and me.

Allowing stylistic control I must submit to your style, and I hope you all have some or this forum is going to turn tacky.

I have no fear that all of you will create a nice comprimise and I will not have to delete or edit anything. I am adding a measure tonight to force tags within messages to be ended at the end of the message. That is, bad html will no longer effect the rest of the forum. So you can relax Joe (just kidding).

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: rich r
Date: 06 Oct 97 - 10:50 PM

In an effort to display my ignorance as well as my annoyance with having to use arcane computer tricks to keep lines from running together, is there a simple way to make posts look like they do in the reply box. From my point of view this has to do with hard returns and little else. Lines are either run together or double-spaced. I store my own files in a word processor with no html codes, so if I copy one in here I have to edit, either put in html signals or extra hard returns or slashes or something $$$$. If I type something in here with the codes and then save it, I have to go back and clean it up. Is there any hope for the simpletons and lazy good for nothings in this group?

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Shula
Date: 07 Oct 97 - 03:25 AM

O.K. Max,

Once more for clarity. Just want to be sure I have this right. Hyperlinks to PAGES do NOT cause problems; hyperlinks to IMAGES DO cause problems. Do hyperlinks to MIDI files cause problems? Actually, should be asking if hyperlinks can be made to MIDI or other musical sites? Oh, bother!

Thanks, Max,

Shula

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Oct 97 - 05:03 AM

Gee, Max, I thought I had finally found my calling in life - wandering around closing tags so the forum doesn't appear in 32-point Greek letters. Now I've been replaced by a few lines of code. Might as well put Old Joe out to pasture, I guess.

-Old Joe-

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Charles
Date: 07 Oct 97 - 05:06 AM

The <img> command is a problem because the image is downloaded there and then, but there's nothing wrong with a link to an image, like this (don't click it) Go and see the cool image over there!. That would cause no trouble at all, and since I assume all the images we put on site are kept in other sites anyway, it would not be difficult. Or alternatively, is there a way in the <img> command to say "don't download unless clicked"?

Charles

PS. the stupid <tt> that wasn't close before was mine (and involuntary). Jack was just caught in. Sorry.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Max
Date: 07 Oct 97 - 01:41 PM

OK Joe, your job should be done. A little HTML trick on my part. Each message is in its own table. HTML Tables automatically end tags when the table ends. So we should not have any mistakes anymore that effect other threads. Let's see...

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Oct 97 - 08:07 PM

of course, all the browsers have a feature that YOU can turn off & on that says "dont show me ANY graphics until I specifically ask for them!" You simply operate with that feature turned on and all web sites pop up as fast as they possibly can.....then, if you see a place where graphics might be interesting, you click each one individually.When I had a slow modem and an old machine, I ran that way most of the time....in Netscape 4, it's in a drop-down menu at the top under 'edit'..then click 'preferences' at the bottom of the list..then the 'advanced' list has a box to check labeled 'automatically load images'....if you want to turn off the graphics, uncheck the box......sounds complicated if you have never looked in there, but it takes about 4 seconds....Netscape 3.xxx is even easier...there is only a 2 step process...click on the boxes at the top until you see the 'automatically load images' command..(I'm in Netscape 4.0 now...I forget..[it's sort of in the middle...'view', or 'preferences']) Internet Explorer has a similar feature in one of its menus...but I don't use IE...(feels like driving a Hyundai, to me!)

so, if you are here...(or somewhere else)...and you hit a slow place that might be due to slow graphics, you can hit 'stop' and turn off the graphics and try again...it might speed things up considerably...

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Shula
Date: 07 Oct 97 - 08:22 PM

Max,

What happened? The Mudcat closed its doors again today and now that it has reopened, everything is moving in S-L-O-O-O-O-O-W M-O-O-O-O-O-T-I-O-N. Can't get to the end of some of the longer threads, no matter how long I wait. Arrrrgggggg!!!!!....!........!.........! Couldn't have anything to do with the table thingies you put in, could it?

Taking root,

Shula

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Max
Date: 07 Oct 97 - 09:13 PM

Bill D: That fixes things for the individual who can live without graphics but does nothing for my site.

Tell you what, every one forget about this and go on to some folk stuff.

Shula: I do not think the tables are slowing things down. The net has been really slow today in general and we were having poor connections earlier today. Having a techie come out in the morning to look things over. Just another bill.

Subject: RE: Cut Back on HTML
From: Alan of Australia
Date: 08 Oct 97 - 10:42 AM

Sorry Max,
As one of the offenders here I promise to watch my HTML in future.

Earlier in this thread Jon W. said in part "you never know how it will come out until you run it through the computer. With that in mind, there are two solutions I can think of
Solution 1:
We need a way to preview our handiwork before it gets posted to the thread.
Solution 2:
We need a way to correct our postings"

Actually, with a small amount of work you can do all this already:
Do what I'm doing right now - type up your posting offline using whatever editor you like (e.g. Notepad), using HTML tags (sparingly in future) then save the file with a .htm extension.
Then open the file in your browser. For most of us the easiest way to do that is double click on the new file's icon. You can see the result in the privacy of your own computer and not make embarrassing mistakes in public.
Then copy your entire text from your editor and paste into the message box.
This gives you both of the above solutions.

Cheers,
Alan