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DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs)
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Subject: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula & Akiba Date: 07 Oct 97 - 08:51 AM Was about to start this thread several hours ago when I decided to check the DT and Forum first. So, if I missed an earlier thread on this topic, at least gave it TOCT. We are partial to duets, esp. those written to the purpose. Know several. Alas! NOTFOLK! (Assume that is one word here.) Mostly from musicals; examples: "When The Children Are Asleep" from "Carousel." "Lida Rose (Quartet/solo in orig.)/ Dream of Now," "Goodnight, My Someone/ 76 Trombones," "My White Knight/ When a Woman's Got a Husband" and "Pick A Little, Talk A Little/ Goodnight Ladies" from "Music Man." "I Hear Singing/ You Don't Need Analyzing" from "Call Me Madam." "Let's Call The Whole Thing Off" from Annie Get Your Gun." "No Two People Have Ever Been So In Love" from "Hans Christian Anderson." Also, an arrangement of "THE GLORY OF LOVE / MAKIN' WHOOPEE!." An odd family fav. is the syncopated TRIO version of "The Snap! Crackle! Pop! Song;" (silly lyrics, but the rhythmically challenged should stay off the slopes!). That should be enough to give an idea. What we were wondering was, are there good examples of this type of duet or trio (not simply singing the same words in harmony) in the FOLK tradition? And where might we find 'em? Thanks. S&A
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Joe Offer Date: 07 Oct 97 - 03:34 PM Well, the first one that comes to mind is "Oh, No, John," [NO, JOHN, NO] which is in the database. I can't access it just now and type this message at the same time, but I think you can find it if you search under [yes or no]. I have a great recording of Paul Robeson doing it by himself, but it could easily be sung as an "answer" song.
Frank Loesser liked to write songs like that. I think there were a couple in his "Guys and Dolls," not that I can think of which ones they were. I auditioned to sing his "BABY IT'S COLD OUTSIDE" with Ravishing Rita from the church choir, but I lost out to another guy. In the end, the other guy couldn't handle the difficult timing on the song and the number was cut from the show, and I can continue to believe that I would have done a better job (but he and Rita ended up being an "item" for a year or more).
Like you, I can think of lots of good duets, but most of them are products of Tin Pan Alley. In another 50 years, once they've had a chance to age a little longer, people will be calling songs of that era "folk." Wait and see. Then I'll be able to sing those songs without having my folk music friends reject me. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Bert Date: 07 Oct 97 - 03:37 PM Also..."THERE'S A HOLE IN THE BUCKET" if you have the stamina for it. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Bert Date: 07 Oct 97 - 03:49 PM A few more... PAPER OF PINS THE KEEPER & THE WRAGGLE-TAGGLE GYPSIES |
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Subject: Lyr Add: YOU TRIED TO RUIN MY NAME From: Jack Date: 07 Oct 97 - 06:15 PM Here?s one in the old-time country vein from Wilma Lee and Stoney Cooper YOU TRIED TO RUIN MY NAME Written by Pee Wee King and Redd Stewart, 1951 As sung by Wilma Lee Cooper on "O Sister! The Women's Bluegrass Collection" (2001) CHORUS: You should go and hang your head in shame The way you tried to ruin my name You even tried to put the blame On me when all along 'twas you Who was breakin' every sacred vow You didn't worry where or how I hope that you are payin' for the way you left me cryin' here alone and blue With your fast talk and your smile so sweet I let you sweep me off my feet I thought my life would be complete To have you for my very own Like a sailboat with no wind around I had no power to turn you down You had your way with me till you grew tired and went your way and left me here alone. CHORUS What a shame the way you made me fall I gave my heart, my soul, my all In answer to your lovesick call In hope someday I'd be your wife But the only thing you gave to me Was bitter tears and misery I may be wrong but seems to me That you should pay for what you done 'cause you have ruined my life. CHORUS I really love this song, one of the quintessential anti-love duets. What makes it great for me is its fast, bouncy, almost fun melody (it has a lot in common with "I Heard the Bluebirds Sing"). With a good duet partner, you can really square off and sing the verses and the chorus right at each other. Kind of a duet-as-dogfight. It's a lot of fun. Best regards. Jack |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Jon W. Date: 07 Oct 97 - 06:41 PM What about call-and-response type songs? Most of these are in the "gospel" arena, which might not be quite what you're looking for, but there are a fair number of sea chanties that could be (and were) sung this way with a chanty man singing a line and a chorus singing a refrain afterwards. Unfortunately the partner doing the chorus (refrain) part gets a little bored singing the same words over and over. Here's one:
Sally Brown was a creole lady
Oh Sally Brown she took a notion etc. etc. Another idea I've heard is to simply trade verses. Or many songs are somewhat of a dialog between a man and a woman - these would be fairly easy to adapt into a duet. One I've thought of doing with my wife is "Fareweill tae Whiskey" which is in DT. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Charlie Baum Date: 08 Oct 97 - 01:10 AM Many of the songs by Lou and Peter Berryman fall into the category you're seeking. Oh yes, and most all of the songs are VERY funny. A quick check of the DT using the search "berryman" lists 9 of their songs, which is the tip of the iceberg. They've got nearly a dozen recordings and a Berryman/Berryman songbook available.
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Charles Date: 08 Oct 97 - 05:02 AM I never heard any English language multi-part folk songs, I'd come to believe they don't exist so I'm really interested in this thread. A lot of the time, folk comes to mean a song in English interpreted by a soloist in a particular story-teller style. Which is (ahem) a little bit restrictive. In French I know several multi-part traditional, popular (in the sense of from the people, by the people etc.) songs. Start with "canons": frère Jacques is a four-part song!
I'll add a few in a separate "French canons" thread. Canons are so familiar to me that I'm not sure how to explain how they work... The word canon (artillery gun) comes from the rolling sound of a battery of guns fired one after the other. Aux marches du palais (words in the French lyrics request thread, can't find the reference because my browser won't access the darn thread listing now) is a duet, and the tenor part is lovely. Belle qui prend ma vie (in the DB) is a four-part song though it's hard to count as "folk". It's not the kind of thing someone's grandmother used to sing. Do Negro Spirituals count as "folk"? And welsh choirs? Charles
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Oct 97 - 06:13 AM Charles, I wonder if what you refer to as a "canon" is the same as what is called a "round" in American music. "Frère Jacques" is exactly what we could call a "round." If you search the database under "@round" you will find dozens. So, am I right that "canon" and "round" are the same thing??? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula Date: 08 Oct 97 - 06:23 AM Dear Charles, Knew there were LOTS in French, where the folk-singing trad. appears to have been more of a group thing. Didn't mention this, at the first, because I was hoping to shake what few English persimmons there might be from that tree first. But my mouth is already watering for sweet French "pears." (Ouch!) Do please post as many as possible. Have learned, to my eternal delight, that I'm not the only fancier of rare fruit here.
Toujours,
Shula |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: alison Date: 08 Oct 97 - 06:49 AM Hi I agree, canons and rounds are the same thing. While we're picking out songs from the musicals, what about "What a swell party this is." from High Society, or "We're a couple of swells", from Easter Parade. Slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Wolfgang (Hell) Date: 08 Oct 97 - 07:09 AM "BABY IT'S COLD OUTSIDE" isn't a folk song, but I heard it performed as a duet by a folk duo. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Charles Date: 08 Oct 97 - 08:33 AM Yep, a canon is a round in proper English. It did occur to me as I was typing the description that I was being stupid, and everyone probably knew what it was. Just remembered Au clair de la lune too is multi-part. Charles
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Peter T. Date: 08 Oct 97 - 10:55 AM More tin-pan alley. "What A Swell Party This Is"[="Well Did You Evah?"]; Fred and Ginger: "A FINE ROMANCE". Hermione and Maurice: "I REMEMBER IT WELL" - see the getting older slot. "MOCKINGBIRD" from pop, and a lot of dreary others. I think a number of Beatles songs are disguised duets: Paul a setup verse, John a harder-nosed middle, or vice versa. "A Day in the Life" is an alternating duet. WORST IDEA EVER IN HISTORY: duets with the dead -- Nat Cole, Billie Holliday!!!!!!!!!!!! Stop, stop, stop!!!!!!!!!!!!!You should be ashamed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Peter T. Date: 08 Oct 97 - 11:11 AM Dear Shula and Akiba, Obviously a morning with time on my hands. Re: Carousel. As someone who was brought up on John Raitt, etc., I was recently intrigued by the new version done by Cameron Mackintosh for the National Theatre in London, and then to Broadway. He essentially went back and put all the real darkness and proto-industrialisation (the factory) back into it. I have a friend who saw it, and said it was devastating. The soundtrack albums are worth a listen. The orchestrations, etc., are quite strikingly harsh and much more interesting than the old Broadway or Lincoln Centre versions. The singers are young and unpolished, but affecting. The best duet -- If I Loved You (how could we forget?) -- is on the London recording, with a really sexual (!) Julie Jordon (no Shirley Jones she), Joanna Riding. "When The Children Are Asleep" is camped up on the same recording, but the new Broadway version of the song is O.K. Just thought you might be interested (Oh God, what is this doing on a folk site! -- might as well do a pre-emptive strike). Yours, Peter |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Bill Date: 09 Oct 97 - 02:31 AM Howdy All, I don't know that this is correct, but have been told by music teachers and those more musically literate than I am that rounds have parts starting and ending separately (1 start -- 2 start -- 3 start ---- 1 end -- 2 end -- 3 end) while canons may have all parts starting together in their separate parts of the song and certainly ends that way without the separate endings and dying off. I don't know, but that's what I've been told.
Allinkausay, |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Moira Cameron Date: 09 Oct 97 - 03:27 AM When I was in high school, I formed a duet with a classmate. We used other, established duet folksingers as inspiration. Duos like John Roberts and Tony Barrand, the Dransfield Brothers, Louis and Sally Killen (from live recordings my parents had on reel to reels) and others. One song that no one has mentioned yet is the wonderful love song by Leon Rosselson, "COBWEB OF DREAMS." Ewan MacColl recorded a good traditional Scottish conversation song, "THE SHEPHERD'S WIFE", which is a bit risque for family audiences but is a great song nonetheless. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Barry Date: 09 Oct 97 - 08:29 PM The Copper family, The Stewarts of Blair, now minus Belle, Gary & Vera Aspey, the Silly Sisters. Dolly & Shirley Collins, the Cossiey (sp?) Sisters, the Watersons, Cilla & Artie, what was Beggar's Velvet, Alison McMorland & Peta Webb, Kate & Anna McGarrigle, Hazel & Alice & the Carter Family all are harmonizing combos or deuts but I'm not sure these are what you were looking for. Barry |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Catfeet Date: 09 Oct 97 - 09:35 PM How about the most beautiful song I can think of, called "By my side" from Godspell. Two voices intertwining in simply gorgeous harmony. Catfeet |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Bruce Date: 09 Oct 97 - 10:05 PM HUNTINGTOWER. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula Date: 09 Oct 97 - 11:54 PM Dear folks, Lots of nice stuff here. Catfeet, like "By My Side" -- beautiful harmony. Another song fron Godspell is a better example of the kind of duet we meant: " All For The Best." In this arrangement, there are actually two DIFFERENT songs sung in syncopated juxtaposition. Some of the examples given above fit the bill, some are responsive, like "No, John, No," and some have two singers singing the same song in harmony. We like them all, but just have a special affection for the ones that have two or more songs interlaced. Hey, I just thought of an oldie that fits: PPM's Arrangement of "A'Soalin' " Also, mad for Madrigals, but they aren't "folk," are they?
Hope people keep posting to this thread; this is a great start on a collection of duets, etc. Thanks to everyone, Akiba & Shula |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: dani Date: 10 Oct 97 - 09:42 AM Two very favorites: at Christmastime my sisters and I sing "It's beginning to look alot like Christmas" and "Pinecones and Hollyberries". It's very satisfying to sing, but I have no idea where we learned it or who sang it first. Also, a memory of long-ago car trips with my father and sisters, where he began, "crank,chiselchisel crank,chiselchisel" and the next person sang, "whoopWhoopWHOOP whoopWhoopWHOOP" and there were several other parts that together felt very good to sing for extended times. Now that I see it typed, it looks awfully silly. Anyone ever heard of this nonsense and remember the other parts? I'd love to teach it to my girls. Shula, how does one pronounce the word tzedakah? Dani |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Barbara Shaw Date: 10 Oct 97 - 02:22 PM There are thousands of duets in bluegrass! Examples of former and current artists appearing as (and singing) duets include: Jim & Jessy, the Louvin Brothers, the Osborne Brothers, Hazel Dickens and Alice Gerrard, Dry Branch Fire Squad (Ron Thomason and Suzanne Thomas singing many duets which often also include call-and-response), The Lynn Morris Band (Lynn and her husband Marshall Wilborn), Ralph Stanley singing duets with everyone on his "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning" CD, and many, many others. (Remember the Everly Brothers?) There's almost always two, three and four-part harmony in most bluegrass bands. For some great examples, listen to the Nashville Bluegrass Band doing a capella harmonies on the gospel album "To Be His Child." Examples of folk/country artists doing duets are: Jody Stecher & Kate Brislin and Barry & Holly Tashian, Robin & Linda Williams. Their albums are filled with beautiful duets. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Peter T. Date: 11 Oct 97 - 02:56 PM When you feel your duets aren't going well....
(abridged from NY Times this week) The Library of Congress has begun the observance of its 200th anniversary with a gala benefit performance and $2,500 a plate dinner on Tuesday night in Washington. The music for the gala was provided by Marilyn Horne and Jerry Hadley. They sang separately the songs of Cole Porter, George Gershwin, and Leonard Bernstein, and, not quite together, "YOU'RE JUST IN LOVE", an intricated Irving Berlin classic. Mr Hadley started badly and the pianist accompanying them, Brian Zeger, tried to catch up by faking it. Halfway through, Ms. Horne threw up her hands and yelled, "Stop!! We're going to start again, and this time we're going to do it right." At the dinner later, Mr. Hadley said, "My concentration flipped," and praised Ms. Horne for getting things back on course. The second try was a grand success. Yours, Peter |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula & Akiba Date: 11 Oct 97 - 08:47 PM Dear Peter T, Well, Hail! Pete, Ef'n sum'b'dy'd guv US $2,500 fer supper'n a song, fer t' lordy's sake, we'd'a fixt em' a raht nahs mess o' vittles 'n' dun got t' singin' raht t' FUST time, doncha speks?! Assume only one of the singers was doing the Ethyl Merman part: "Just In Love," which we mistakenly referred to by its first line: "You Don't Need Analysing," and the other was doing the Donald O'Connor part, "I Wonder Why," also referred to by first line: "I Hear Singing." No doubt this type of duet is a rhythmically high-risk undertaking, even for the famous, and famously well-paid. Timing is all. Shula & Akiba |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Peter T. Date: 12 Oct 97 - 10:48 AM Especially ironic given the musical it came from! ("I was born on a thousand acres, of Oklahoma, etc.....") Yours, Peter |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: judy Date: 12 Oct 97 - 12:30 PM Dani, How to pronounce tzedaka tze ("ts" from "treats", "eh" as in "ever") da-ka ("dah-kah" as in "father") one meaning is giving to charity another doing something rightgeous from the root letters tz (tzadick) d (daled), k (kaf) meaning right, correct or rightgeous Shula, I think the horserace song (I got the horse right here, his name is Paul Revere) in Guys and Dolls has a different song sung with it. My mom knew a couple, I'll try and scare them up. judy |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula Date: 12 Oct 97 - 01:06 PM Dear Dani, Sorry for the failure to replymor quickly. Maybe you will be "charitable" enough to allow me to blame my memory lapse on the Yom Kippur fast. Judy has it right, (Thanks, Judy, for taking up my slack!), as long as you use the SECOND "e" in ever, which is the minimal "schwa" sound, not a fully voiced vowel like the first "e." Biblically speaking, all of creation is G-d's; we are merely stewards. Thus "the corners of the fields" and "the fallen wheat from the gathered sheaves" (see The Book of Ruth") are RIGHT- fully set aside for the poor -- that is, the nominal owner of the property must plant the whole field, but leave its corners unharvested so that the needy may come and help themselves to what is allocated to them by The Almighty. This is the precedent for seeing what is given to the poor, not as being left to the discretion of the giver, but as the RIGHTFUL property of those in need, and the "mitzvah" (good deed) not as being in the act of giving, but in the act of receiving back one's due graciously, from those who may temporarily hold it. It was a common practice, until fairly recently, for givers to thank the "schnorrers" (beggars with an attitude of entitlement) for allowing them to make the gift! The Jewish concept of "charity" is therefore rendered by a word that means to do a JUST or righteous act, not an act of pity. Supplying "the portion of the poor" is not an optional kindness, but an OBLIGATION, and failure to fully and properly discharge that obligation puts one in the category of those who would steal from helpless widows and orphans! (E.G. The current U.S.Congress. Couldn't guess my politics, couldja?) Ya probably shouldn't get me started, Dani. Why were you interested, (should have asked this first, I s'pose.)? Shalom,
Shula
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula Date: 12 Oct 97 - 01:16 PM Cor.: "reply more quickly" and "The Book of Ruth." Dear Judy, Thanks again for answering Dani. Have done Guys and Dolls, know the songs. There are actually THREE songs which comprise this arrangement called "Can Do." Great piece! Thanks, Shula |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: dick greenhaus Date: 12 Oct 97 - 07:44 PM C'mon Shula-- That's actually called FUGUE FOR TINHORNS. Which is a fairly neat pun. Re polyphonic folk music, there isn't much in the English speaking tradition, at least in traditional secular music. ACtually, except for the later introduction of Barber Shop, there isn't much of an English-speaking secular choral tradition, although a few modern performers have tried to introduce one. In non-secular music, there's some nice polyphony in shaped-note music, as well as in some of the material the Copper family sings. More recently, there's always WIMOWEH (I hesitate to call it African any more), and a nice gentle one called Sweet Potatoes. Larry and Odetta did a medley of THE GREAT HISTORICAL BUM and I WAS BORN ABOUT TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO that played the choruses against each other.And the practice of singing a chorus double-time against normal time has popped up in things like QUARTERMASTER CORPS and I'LL FLY AWAY. dick |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula Date: 12 Oct 97 - 09:18 PM Dear Dick, A honey of a pun, indeed, and I bow to the correction. Was in a hurry and let memory serve; should have looked it up. In pitiful and only partial defense, allow me to point out that it is the repetition of the lines "Can do, can do, if he says the horse can do; can do, can do!" in each of the three song parts' chorus, that lead cast members and others in the productions which I recall from ancient history, to reduce the unwieldy "Fugue" pun to the simpler "Can Do" when referring to the song in question. Sorry, just lazy today. Will try to improve accuracy in future. Always, Shula
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Subject: RE: Pun? Help! From: Charles Date: 13 Oct 97 - 11:09 AM Er... Can't see anything in Fugue fourteen Horns, er, Phew, g'for tin horns, er... My English is good but not that good.
Thanks for your points on Tzedaka Shula. Something I'll bear in mind as I'm going to Bosnia next week. Charles |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: dick greenhaus Date: 13 Oct 97 - 01:35 PM Charles-Don't dig too deep. Horns are musical instruments; Tin Horns are gamblers. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Peter T. Date: 13 Oct 97 - 02:43 PM Entering briefly into this fugal form (Fugaces Labunter Annie was a old girlfriend of mine), I remind you, Dick, of the great doo-wop tradition. Yours, The Duke of Earl, The Penguins, The Moonglows, the Four Satins, etc.... |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula Date: 13 Oct 97 - 05:32 PM Dear Peter, Back atcha: "SILHOUETTES," "Get A Job," "YAKETY YAK, (Don't Talk Back!)" Sha-n'-nah-nah!, Sha-n'-nah-n'-nah! Shula |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula Date: 14 Oct 97 - 09:09 PM Dear Folks, This has been a most enjoyable fishing expedition. Thanks, all 'round! Vaguely remember an English folksong (?), with "duet potential" along the lines of "NO, JOHN, NO," which repeats the line: "Nob'dy askt ye, Sirrah, she said, Sirrah, she said, Sirrah, she said...," replete with double entendre, sung to a jaunty, teasing jig tune. Checked DT under a variety of spellings, and variants of the phrases to no avail. Any clue? [=PRETTY MAID] Thanks again to all, Shula |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Nonie Rider Date: 15 Oct 97 - 01:36 PM I checked for the terms "nobody asked," and found that the database has a variation, "DABBLING IN THE DEW," which is more polished but more cluttered, but I know I've heard something closer to what you describe too. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Date: 17 Oct 97 - 10:44 PM Shula, My mom remembered something she may have heard on the Steve Allen show. Not folk but it does fit your category: The first person sang "I hear music but there's no one there" (something, something) "I wonder why; I wonder why" And the second person sang at the same time: "I don't mind harmonizing" (something, something) "surprising". This might ring a bell with someone. [=YOU'RE JUST IN LOVE] judy
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Jerry Friedman Date: 18 Oct 97 - 04:36 PM Don't forget Simon and Garfunkel's beautiful "SCARBOROUGH FAIR / CANTICLE". (And for the Broadway list, don't forget "One", from "A Chorus Line".) What Shula and Akiba are looking for is called "counterpoint"--two or more DIFFERENT melodies sung at the same time. In the best counterpoint, the melodies are interesting in their own right; also they are different in rhythm, have different climaxes and different pauses, etc. After having been developed in Europe by non-folk musicians, and brought to several peaks of simultaneous academic and artistic perfection (Palestrina et al., Bach and Handel, Mozart), counterpoint has become part of European and American folk music--but unfortunately for Akiba and Shula, vocal counterpoint in folk music is pretty rare. The countermelody is more often taken by a fiddle, a clarinet, etc. (Possibly you could find fiddle parts that can be adapted for your voices.) A special kind of counterpoint is called a canon. In a canon, the voices imitate each other with a delay (or some other difference). The simplest kind canon is the two-part round. There are more complicated kinds: three or four parts, two parts starting at different times and in different keys, the second part rising where the first part falls and vice-versa (inversion), slowed down (augmentation), sped up (diminution), played backward (crab canons), and probably others. As Bill points out, some of these canons can have the parts starting together, and they usually deviate from strict imitation enough to end together. If you want to hear classical canons, there's the one by Pachelbel that everyone knows, and otherwise, you can't do better than Bach's "Musical Offering". There are other classical forms that use imitation between voices, but not with perfect strictness. One is the madrigal. Another is the fugue (which has at least three parts and starts out with a certain pattern of strict imitation). My possibly wrong impression of the "Fugue for Tinhorns" is that all three vocal parts have the same tune except for being in different keys (and except for the very end). In that case, it would be a canon. It could also fit the pattern of a fugue, in which case it would be a "canonic fugue". Shula and Akiba, if you want folk songs with counterpoint, you might actually try doing it yourself. After a little study, writing an acceptable countermelody to a given melody turns out to be not all that hard, and kind of fun. What's hard is making it better than acceptable. You could start with "The Keeper"--I've only heard the "hey down, ho down" part sung in unison, but it cries out for simple counterpoint. And of course, someone might accuse you of desecration, as I think people accused Paul Simon. As Lord Peter Wimsey said to Harriet Vane after hearing Bach's Concerto for Two Violins, "Anyone can have the harmony if they'll leave us the counterpoint." (That's close, anyway--now someone can correct me. It's from Dorothy Sayers's excellent mystery novel Gaudy Night.) |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Shula & Akiba Date: 19 Oct 97 - 01:30 AM Dear Dick,
We used to sing a version of what I presume is "The Quartermaster's Corps" or "Store," on the schoolbus, where one side of the bus would do the chorus slowly, and the other side would do it in "doubletime." MUCH better than "99 Bottles!
Dear Judy,
Dear Nonie,
Dear Jerry,
Excellent essay. Right on point. We feared that asking for examples of contrapuntal harmony from the musical vernacular might be counterproductive. It appears, however, that there is no substitute for precise description. Then, again, while there is little harm in catching a few that must be thrown back, it might well not have occurred to all the kind folk who responded to our query to include examples of a provincial and/or proletarian nature, had we requested "counterpoint." Nu? (Look forward to reading "Gaudy Night.")
Contrapuntally yours,
SAhkuilbaa |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Barry Date: 19 Oct 97 - 11:53 PM Shula, in the DT give "WINDMILLS" a try, and use the "around & around went the big sails" as a chorus. Using those words & melody sing it against a verse, you could also sing the verse in harmony (as stated) while 2 other voices are using the same method while singing the chorus, at the same time. Never tried it as a round, don't think it'll work. Barry |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Jerry Friedman Date: 20 Oct 97 - 05:18 PM S.&A., "Gaudy Night" is one of my favorite mysteries, but if you like it and want to go back and read the rest of Sayers's mysteries (it's the second-last), be aware that "Gaudy Night" settles something that the earlier "Strong Poison" and "Have his Carcase" left in suspense. Believe it or not, I'm not done. Here are some word comments: Dick, I checked the song list of "Guys and Dolls" on the Web and the only title I found for that brilliant first song was "Fugue for Tinhorns". BUT in Shula's defense, once in my youth this song was on "Name that Tune", and they said they would have accepted any of three titles: "FfT", "Can Do", and "I Got the Horse Right Here". (That's the only thing I ever learned from that show.) Also, I wouldn't translate "tinhorn" as "gambler". More "cheap, fast-talking loudmouth", including not only touts (as in "Guys and Dolls") but also shills, barkers, politicians... Charles, according to the Oxford English Dictionary and Eric Partridge, "cannon" does not come from "canon". (It comes through Old French from Old Italian "cannone", meaning large reed or tube, and is ultimately related to "cane". Incidentally, "canon" means "rule", in music referring to the rule that gives the second part from the first, etc.) Judy, the name of the first letter in "tsedakah" is "tsaddi", not "tsaddick". (A scholar would probably write "sadhe", with a dot under the s.) You may have been thinking of the word "tsaddik", meaning a righteous or holy man. The second letter is called "dalet", not "daled". Dani, you might be interested to know that in the Sephardic pronunciation, which I believe is standard in Israel, "tsedakah" is accented on the last syllable, with the first e (or schwa) reduced almost to silence. Judy gave the Ashkenazic pronunciation, which a lot of American Jews use. |
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Subject: RE: DUETS, (And Other Multi-Part Songs) From: Nonie Rider Date: 21 Oct 97 - 07:58 PM Re "Nobody ask't ye, Sirrah, she said." We had a variant in our Mother Goose Rhymes book, so I presume it's pretty common. I don't remember the full thang, but it was something like:
Where are you going, my pretty young maid? (Various verses, all ending with "..., Sir, she said."
Last verse, he concludes that he won't marry her; So, I presume this was a stripped-down, no-burden-or-chorus version of the song you're talking about. |
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