Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 08:20 AM

DtG wrote: House the contents of the Tate gallery (The new Lowry centre in Salford looks like a gasometer - why shouldn't London art suffer the same fate?)

Well the modern Tate is housed an the old Bankside powerstation - will that do?

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:01 PM

Keith at work, as a northerner, I've got to say that some of those east London placenames sound evocative to me: Spitalfields, Whitechapel, Limehouse, Canary Wharf, Walford.... (only kidding). English Jon, our guest is also right, the song was definitely written by Jimmy Miller, who became better known as Ewan McColl.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 08:01 PM

Keith at work, as a northerner, I've got to say that some of those east London placenames sound evocative to me: Spitalfields, Whitechapel, Limehouse, Canary Wharf, Walford.... (only kidding). English Jon, our guest is also right, the song was definitely written by Jimmy Miller, who became better known as Ewan McColl.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:00 PM

He wrote it in 1950.
I think he meant that the sight of a pretty young girl in a summery frock was the only sign of the easing of Spring.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 01:41 PM

"It,s hard to think of Wapping and the Isle Of Dogs as romantic placenames."

No it's not - it all depends what happens to you there. I think that's part of what Ewan is getting at - in the context of a romance, all places become romantic. Anyway you get great sunsets from the Isle of Dogs sometimes.

I can never hear the line "springs a girl in the streets at night" without getting a vision of some Jill the Ripper character.

One thing about the old gasworks - they realy were smelly places, and the whole area around reeked of them. That wouldn't have needed pointing out at the time, but nowadays people don't have that association, because the gas pumped in from the North Sea doesn't have the smell.

I've got the feeling the song is a bit earlier than 1968. I'm sure I remember Ewan singing it in the Ballads and Blues Club in Soho Square in the late 50s.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Keith A at work
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 11:37 AM

Compare with his other song of love in the city "Sweet Thames Flow Softly" I think he must have lost his hard Northern edge when he came to London.
If you know them , it,s hard to think of Wapping and the Isle Of Dogs as romantic placenames.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 11:03 AM

I guess there must be something politicaly incorrect in gasometers if the powers that be now call them gasholders then...;-)

Use for old gasholders then????

New millenium dome (better than the last one)
Wall of death (Richard Thompson related thread)
House the contents of the Tate gallery (The new Lowry centre in Salford looks like a gasometer - why shouldn't London art suffer the same fate?)

Any more ideas???

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:49 AM

Now I don't like to be pedantic (LOL!) but I believe what I have always called gasometers as Dave does, are officially gasholders. Unrelated trivia thread creep: I understand the ones by King's Cross station in London are being demolished for development of the site and then re-erected afterwards as listed industrial heritage structures, though no-one knows what use to make of them!
RtS( who was brought up within sight and smell of Saltley gasworks in Birmingham so this song has always held resonances for me).

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:41 AM

Thanks for the Salford info Dave. Interesting.

Rick

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: English Jon
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:38 AM

1950... older than I thought. Definitely by Ewan though. Shoals o' herrin' is a mighty song too.. might dig that one out.

Jon

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:33 AM

Hiya Gary - Gasworks Croft is an easy one. A croft in this sense of the word is a bit of urban wasteland - Imagine old demolished building re-claimed by nature; full of Rose-Bay willow herb, dock, dandelion, old bricks etc. and you have a croft. Unlike the Scotish or Irish crofts which are 'small-holdings'. I guess the words have the same roots though.

The gasworks is where the coal gas for lighting/heating/cooking etc. was manufactured by heating coal until it gave off the gas to be stored in the Gasometers - which are the remaining bits! The other by-product was coke - coal with the combustible gases extracted. Dunno the full implications but it was used in other industries. So - Gasworks croft - bit of waste land at the side of the gasworks!

Springs a girl etc. Bit more difficult. Clever play on words by McColl??? A girl springs from nowhere? Spring is like a girl? I guess some 'McCollogists' in the cafe will know:-)

You need to know Salford, in particular 'Hanky (Hankinson)Park' to realy get into what McColl was trying to put across but his song is still a pretty good description of old Salford.

Try watching the 1961 film "A taste of honey" for a feel for Salford in the late 50's/early 60's. As well as being, IMO, a classic northern-gritty drama, a lot of it was filmed on location in Salford. For earlier history "Hobsons Choice" would be a goodread. Lowry's paintings give a good view as well and to round off the picture check out Salfords web site here to see how (again in my opinion) the council is now bugering things up!

Enjoy anyway and if you want answers to specific questions please fire away.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:27 AM

Yes, the 'Dirty Old Town'is Salford, scene of Ewan MacColl's childhood and adolescence. He wrote the song in 1950 to cover a set change in the Theatre Workshop production of 'Landscape with Chimneys', a Ewan MacColl play. There is a good version of it on 'BLACK & WHITE, EWAN MAcCOLL -THE DEFINITIVE COLLECTION'on Cooking Vinyl Records,COOKCD 038.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:20 AM

Great song Skarpi. Probably one of the most Mis-identified pieces of music ever written. I've had people INSIST that it was about Glasgow, Newcastle, Dublin(!!) and even Liverpool. MacColl told of fishermen scoffing at the idea that he wrote "Shoals of Herring". "That song's been in my family for 100 years" they'd tell him.

That's when you know you've been successful as a "folk" writer.

Rick

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: AndyG
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 10:13 AM

A croft is a piece of waste-ground. At the time the song was written this was often a WWII bomb-site. The "gasworks croft" would be a desolate piece of ground hard by the gasworks.

Spring is a season of the year :)
ie Spring's a girl... note my apostrophe, (not in the DT).

AndyG

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: English Jon
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:48 AM

Dirty Old Town was definitely written by Ewan McColl in about 1968. My Dad used to know Ewan, longtimeago.... so we know this is true.

Cheers,

Jon

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 09:44 AM

Dave, Anything else you can tell us about the words of Ewan MacColl's song? For example, I don't know what a "gasworks croft" is. Or why the girl "springs". Anything really ...

Garry

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:59 AM

Or Jimmy Miller............

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,skarpi Iceland.
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:38 AM

Thank you Dave. skarpi Iceland.

Subject: RE: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:36 AM

Ewan McColl - you are correct on all other scores. The gas works still stands btw - I drive past it every morning!

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: Who wrote ' Dirty Old Town '
From: GUEST,skarpi Iceland.
Date: 30 Jan 01 - 07:31 AM

Hallo all, who wrote Dirty old town? and is it about Salford town I think its in England?.

All the best skarpi Iceland.