PA systems

Subject: PA systems
From: GUEST,Rob O
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 01:02 PM

Hey all,

A friend and I are starting to look for some real work playing Irish Folk and we're not sure what kind of equipment we should be looking for. Here's what we do know: We need at least 5 channels (3 mikes and 2 instruments so ppl can sit in with us if we decide to add to our duo). We are going to be mainly playing in pubs where we are not nessecarily going to have a quiet and attentative audience. We are on a limited budget (We'd like to stay under $1000 if we can.

So we're looking for advice on: Where to find used gear, how much power we might need for the system, and general such advice.

Thanks Rob Osterman The Emerald Privateers

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: GUEST,UBU DanGuy
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 01:51 PM

I got myself a mackie powered mixer and I coudn't be happier. It has great built in reverb/equalizer...it is vey portable and quite affordable. The PPM series runs from 500 watt 6 channel mono to a 1200 watt stereo 8 channel input. I recommend getting the stereo because it is not mch off a price difference and allows a lot more versatility...I also got the extra power and inputs because that way I had a system I wouldn't be likely to outgrow quickly. If you only got 6 channels you might find yourself constrained if you ever want to add a backup guitar (in case of string breaking) or an extra input for a visiting friend.

more info here: http://www.mackie.com/Products/PPM_Series.asp

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: UB Ed
Date: 16 Feb 01 - 04:06 PM

No less than 8 channels; maybe 12 if you each have a couple of guitars ready when the string breaks in the middle of the song and all your good friends are playing along.

As much power as your pocketbook will allow. If you plan to play outdoors you'll be glad to have it. Additionally, more power should equate to a cleaner sound.

A speaker system that will capture highs and lows. There are some great smaller speakers, but consider a subwoofer to make it right. May be less expensive to go with larger, wider-range speakers.

Consider "building" the system as money comes in from gigs. Get a quality mixer/amp/reverb/eq and maybe rent speakers (and monitors) at first. Add on as more $ roll in from your many bookings! I believe the mixer will be your most critical component.

Carefully inspect and fully test all used equipment. Pots get dirty and gunky hanging out in a pub and can seriously degrade performance.

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: GUEST, Dropped Cookie
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 12:14 AM

Can anyone help find past threads on tech stuff? And I know there were some full of links. This 486 is a poor tool for Mudcat research, but there have been a lot of good ideas on this as I recall-- mics, everything. Soup to nuts sound.

Good luck.

~S~

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 12:59 AM

Ummm... why does a back up guitar need to have it's own channel?? Ya break a string, half unplug from the board, unplug from the instrument, plug into the new instrument, plug back into the board... easy peasy... I've been known to take the stage with 3 guitars, and I only run one channel for them... I do all my mixing on the guitar, and I use a danelectro foot peddle tuner to kill the signal to the board so there are no POWs!

ya need 5 channels, go 12.. the board will have more bells and whistels fer yer $$

;-)

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 10:34 AM

Yep.........I would agree. For what you have described, a minimum system would be an 8 channel powered amp head with some basic effects. Get good speakers with good bass response..........Community comes to mind.......and make sure you are using balanced mic's. SM 58's for the vocals, SM 57 for the instruments if they don't have onboard electronics. If you intend to use a soundhole pickup, and if said pickup doesn't have a preamp built in (like the Rare Earth does), then don't forget you will need a preamp or a powered direct box. And pay careful attention to spec's on the speakers. More speakers are ruined from underpowering than overpowering. If speaker likes 250W and you are running 100W out of the amps, this could be a problem.

If you can, I would step up to a Mackie 12 channel board and separate amp, instead of the powered amp head. Experience has shown me that you will need the extra channels at some point, as needs never decrease, they always increase.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 05:48 PM

Best advice I have: go to Musicians Friend website, watch their "scratch and dent" stuff -- some REAL bargains, and guarnteed to work just fine -- and BUY MACKIE!

Sarah

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: Justa Picker
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 05:55 PM

Definitely Mackie for the board.

Also, ask around and see if you can find an old pair of Bose 802's or even the older 800s. Fantastic speakers especially for vocals and acoustic instruments. A pair of them on stands can comfortably do a room of up to 300 people. Mind you they like power, so you would need a 500 watt amp (250 a side) to properly drive them.

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 06:43 PM

My only advice is: DON'T let anybody have their own system, and DON'T let anybody but the sound person have control over anything!! Run everybody through one board.

In my group, we have 2 different banjo players and one guitar player that all bring their own amps and speakers, and each one is in charge of HIS OWN sound. Consequently, the one banjo player always walks on either the fiddles or the vocalist.......and we can't get him to turn it down!!! He can't hear it, so he is convinced nobody else can either!

Last week, he brought a solid body electric + amp + speaker to a gig in a small room........first, I joked to him privately, then I made jokes over the mike, then I said "OUCH", and I finally just said, "BOB, you are TOO LOUD!! TURN IT DOWN!! He did, a little, but not enough.

Bottom line- - - Sound person is in charge of sound. Unfortunately, we don't have one.

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: Big Mick
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 06:51 PM

I wouldn't play in your band, Sorcha. Not because of you, of course. I had the same problem with the bass in a band I was in. He was the only person who refused to give up control of his volume control. Even his wife would tell him he was too loud. Finally I told him he would be without a pretty fair singer if he didn't let the sound guy control the mix. He refused..............I left. What comes out of those mainspeakers is not just your music, it is your reputation and the result of endless rehearsal hours. I will not perform with folks that think their sound is more important than the finished product coming out of the sound system........................Young man, would you mind taking this soapbox outta here.....I'm done with it and its in the way............T'anks!!

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: Sorcha
Date: 17 Feb 01 - 07:29 PM

I know, Mick. Several of us would play elsewhere if we had a choice, but we don't have a reliable sound person, and we are not really a BAND.......we are a Non Profit (501 3 C) club.......so, we can't limit membership,charge real money, or do a lot of other things that would help the over all timber of the group.

Of course, the other side of that story is that none of us really want to be in a Professional Band.......that has serious drawbacks, too.

The group owns its own sound system, but its parts are either in my attic, or an integral part of my living room........if it gets hauled, I haul it. If it gets used, my hubby is sound man......and he is often not available to help load, set up, or run sound.

Sometimes, it is the choice of the Devil or the Deep Blue Sea.........(and the vocalist is the BEST friend of the offending banjo player!)

(wanna hear some more whines about my life in general? I didn't think so........small grin)

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: GUEST,UBU Dan
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 09:24 AM

Although I agree with Big Mick : "If you can, I would step up to a Mackie 12 channel board and separate amp, instead of the powered amp head. "

I recommended the PPM series because you mentioned being on a budget. I have alot of flexibility because I own a Mackie PPM powered mixer and my brother owns a much larger (16 channel I think) Mackie board with 2 seperate 1200 watt amps, a reverb unit etc...

I have generally found that the most tiring part of playing out is setting up and packing up...The PPM is portable and can actually be carried up a flight of stairs by one person.

Although you can swith the plug on your main guitar/backup guitar/twelve string guitar/non standard tuned guitar/ etc... having extra inputs to keep all of them plugged in at once is a very nice convienience. I would still argue that you would want the extra inputs for visiting friends.

Buying a used guitar can be done safely if you know what you are doing, but buying used sound equipment is far more risky. Beware of damaged, scratched, and used equipment unless the vendor has an acceptable return policy. I know I wouldn't be able to tell what condition the equipment was in from looking at it or even playing it a just few times.

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: GUEST,Ken
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 09:57 AM

OK, I just came across this site while searching for something else but while I was here I thought I would add my two cents. Just to note, I am a professional sound technician and have put together many a sound system for many different requirements. I am also the sound tech for the annual Celtic Festival in Wasaga Beach, ON CANADA. Anyways, my two cents are this. While every part of a sound system is important, it all begins with the mics. A good quality mic is essential for picking up the quality of sound in your voice/instrument. Even a Mackie will sound bad if it is fed a poor signal. I suggest checking out Audio-Technica mics for vocals, their line has interesting tailored response curves for voice. ALWAYS try a mic before buying it, and compare it to other mics in the same system. Try renting some to hear them in use, not just in the store. Also, mics on accoustic instruments may work well in the studio, but that's about it. Live accoustic mics will let you down, either with feedback or by the fact that the mic will sound radically different when you move a little or if it is not set up in the exact same place every time. I would recommend looking into getting an onboard mic installed. I have worked with everything from accoustic guitars and double bass to fiddles and harps, and let me assure you, an onboard mic sounds better every time. Of course, all good onboard accoustic mics will require phantom power, so be SURE to make that an option on whatever mixer you choose. As for the mixer, yes MACKIE makes excellent powered mixers, and for anything requiring less than say, 16-24 channels, I see nothing wrong with powered mixers. Separate mixer and power amps lends to problems with ground loops and signal path that can be avoided with powered mixers. Get one that will power monitors as well, then you are just 'plug and go'. I also agree with whoever said get stuff as money permits. Speakers can be rented, but having the same mics and mixer will greatly help keep your sound consistant. Oh, also check out Yprkville Sound powered mixers, they make some nice ones too. Also remember, this stuff all plugs together with cables, a $500 mic doesn't deserve to be plugged into a $5 cable....

Subject: RE: PA systems
From: DonMeixner
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 05:16 PM

My band uses as Peavy 9 channel powered mixer. I haven't used a Mackie but I see them everywhere I go.

My advice: Go into debt now and get the very best you can find> With as many channels as you can afford. Surely one will go belly up just as you start a job and youi'll need the input space.

Can't beat the SM 57 & 58s for the money. But get them all the same. Nit picky of me but thats an opinion others seem to share as well. Get heavy duty cables. Get really good stands. Stands will outlast Mics.

Get monitors! We use Peavy HotSpots. they are on stands at about shoulder level and being deaf in one ear these things are a necessity for me.

Get excellent Mains. I feel its better to have four medium sized mains than two big ones. Others may differ.

Get covers for everything, protect the investment.

Best small sound system I have ever heard is Seamus Kennedy's, maybe he will chime in here.

Don Meixner