Help: Fighting for Strangers

Subject: Fighting for Strangers
From: MMario
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 04:46 PM

One of the Songs missing tunes in the DT is FIGHTING FOR STRANGERS per the notes, the tune is "He Who Would Valiant Be". I would have to assume they mean the hymn.

the commonest tunes I could find for the hymn were St. Dunstan's and Monk's Gate

Be danged if I can get the lyrics to scan to either! Several problems

I cannot get lyrics to parse to the music as written.

Verses in the DT are twice as long as the tune (okay, I know, can repeat)

How does the chorus fit in?

Anyone want to take a shot at at?

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Snuffy
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 06:47 PM

Reinhard Zierkes Steeleye Span website says this about Fighting for Strangers

Steeleye Span recorded this track for the last (and one of the finest) album of their "classic" line-up, Rocket Cottage. A live recording from the 1991 tour was released on the CD Tonight's The Night. Another live recording from St. David's Hall, Cardiff on December 6, 1994 was released on the video 25 Live: The Classic Twenty Fifth Anniversary Tour Concert.

This song is a tragic military montage of three songs segued together against layers of percussive over-dubbing. The results were both experimental and exciting. The chorus is from Our Captain Cried All Hands, which can be found e.g. on Martin Carthy's album Byker Hill.

So it looks like it's nothing as easy as one tune. Anyone got a recording?

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Morticia
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 06:55 PM

Mmario, I have a recording which I can MP3 and send you if you would find that helpful. Please PM me your e-mail if you would,but I am just about to go on holiday for week so if someone can do it sooner, great.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 07:11 PM

Like their "Weaver and the Factory Maid", it's a not-altogether-comfortable mishmash of bits of several separate and unrelated songs, with the rhythm interfered with to make it sound more fashionable.  I've been putting off making midis for those two, because I just know it's going to be at least as annoying as (and even slower than) doing the ironing; however, I will do it if nobody else makes a better offer.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 07:57 PM

The proper folk song title for "Fighting for Strangers" is "Our Captain called all hands", JFSS #3, p. 131, 1901, and Purlsow's 'The Constant Lovers', p. 62 (both with tunes).

"Weaver and factory maid" is descended from the 17th century "Will the Weaver and Charity the Chambermaid", which is indeed two songs telescoped together (in my opinion, but not Roy Palmer's). See that and the songs it was made from in Scarce Songs 1 on my website.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Feb 01 - 08:12 PM

Quite so, Bruce.  Steeleye Span, however, bastardised both songs to a thoroughly confusing extent for reasons of their own (each one, as recorded by them, is a composite of at least three distinct songs); since the DT texts in question are taken from their recordings, it falls to some unfortunate (probably me) to provide usable tunes for them.  I will be sure, as I always try to be, to give a precise provenance for each bit.  Obviously, I would hope that the DT will eventually incorporate any such information so that no poor innocent believes either song, as presented, to be in any way traditional, but it's not up to me.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 02:24 AM

Professionals entertainers I expect to bastardize songs, that's why I don't take folk songs from records that aren't from traditional singers except in rare instances, and I didn't call them folk songs. Ballad-L recently had a discussion of the differences between the songs John A. Lomax published and the versions he actually collected. Commerciallization of folk for new pop and profit seems to be the norm.

That's why I reccomend DT with cautions. Many, probably most, songs there aren't from traditional singers.

I contributed some songs to the forum about 2 years ago that haven't made it into DT yet. Much more annoying is I'm credited with several songs I didn't contribute (mostly from MS's Scottish nursery rhymes-Murray on Saltspring in the Forum).

PS: Malcolm if you want to get on Ballad-L with better amateurs and some professionals in the field, just send me a blank message (my email address is on my homepage) so I can get your email, and I'll send you info to sign up. Messages come to your email box, in spurts, a max of about 6 a day, and many days nothing, so it's not too time consuming to handle even if you're not interested in the subject. Several here are on it. Todays spurt was the same question as Lamarca's here in Aug. 1997 on the origin of "The Serving Maid's Holliday" (search on 'serving'). Replys from Steve Roud and others. I later heard Lemarca sing the song beautifully (as usual), and "The Broom of Cowdenknowes", too.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Noreen
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 08:43 AM

'Our Captain Cried All Hands' is the same tune as for 'He who would Valiant Be'. Can't get the links above to play, MMario, so can't tell you which of those it is, sorry.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: wes.w
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 09:00 AM

Isn't 'He who would Valiant..' tune Monksgate, a Baring Gould job on'A Blacksmith Courted Me' (nine months or better)? Mrs Veryall of Horsham rings bells too, Bert LLoyd, English Book of Penguin Folk Songs? Oh poor ageing brain!

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: MMario
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 09:31 AM

Malcolm - I was hoping someone else could either come up with the tune and/or enough information to allow me to do it. You do yoeman service as it is! (not that I will object if you do get to it first.)

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Mar 01 - 10:08 AM

That would be Vaughan Williams rather than Baring Gould, "Monks Gate" being the place (near Horsham in Sussex) where that particular variant was collected, from Mrs. Verrall.  Published in the Journal of the Folk Song Society, as Bruce says above (vol. II, no.8, 1906, I think; the one Bruce mentioned is another variant).  So far as I remember, they only used the second 2 lines of that tune; the rest was mostly "Johnny I Hardly Knew You", with a bit of something else stuck in as well.

Though written music would make a helpful start, they played around with their sources so much in this that probably nobody could make an accurate transcription without having the recording to listen to, or a memory far more reliable than mine; I don't have a copy of "Rocket Cottage", as I'd ceased to take S. Span seriously by then (downhill from the day Carthy left, I reckon).  You go for it, and I'll think about it as well.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 04:17 AM

I always thought the 'Fighting for Strangers' tune (from Steeleye) was the tune to the hymn I know as 'To be a Pilgim'. It certainly fits to that.

DtG

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Trevor
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 05:27 AM

Hello.

I've got a recording of, I think, Martin Carthy and Dave Swarbrick, performing 'Our Captain...'. It uses the hymn tune that we normally associate with 'To be a pilgrim' and he does manage to make the words fit. I sing it and for some reason the syllables are in different places every time. I can probably give some indication of how it scans if that would be of any use, or if you want to p-mail me I'll arrange to let you have a copy of the recording.

Cheers

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: wes.w
Date: 02 Mar 01 - 08:42 AM

Dave the Gnome - Thats the one I think too.
There's an interesting version of 'A Blacksmith Courted Me' on a recent Vulcheva Jenkins Incident CD, same tune almost, but with the Bulgarian bends.
And yes Malcom, Martin Carthy leaving was the end of Steeleye for me too.

Subject: Tune Add: Fighting for Strangers
From: OldPossum
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 05:55 PM

X:1
T:Fighting For Strangers
B:Steeleye Span: Original Masters
M:4/4
L:1/4
K:G
[|=F2 _B G|
M:2/4
A (_B/A/)|
M:4/4
G3 =F|(D/C/)(_B,/C/) (D/_E) =F/-|=F2 z1 _B|
=F2 F F/(G/-|
M:2/4
G/=F/)(_E/D/)|
M:4/4
C2 z1 G|=F _B, A,3/2 B,/-|_B,4|z4|
z3 E/^C/|B, E E F|G G G F/E/|D D (D/C/)B,/C/|
D D D E|B, E E/D/E/F/|G (F/G/) G A/G/|G/G/G/G/ G/F/E/G/|
F/F/F/F/ F E/F/|G G/G/-G z/ A/|F F F G/F/|G G F E|F2 F A|
B/A/G/A/ G/F/(G/F/)|E/F/- F E D|E/E/E/E/ E D|E2 E z1|]


Source: The songbook Steeleye Span: Original Masters, (c) 1977 Steeleye Span Limited/Chrysalis Music Limited.

Subject: Tune Add: FIGHTING FOR STRANGERS
From: OldPossum
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 06:08 PM

X:2
T:Fighting For Strangers
C:Trad. arr. Steeleye Span
B:Steeleye Span: Original Masters
M:4/4
L:1/4
K:G
[|=F2 _B G|
w:What makes you
M:2/4
A (_B/A/)|
w:go a-
M:4/4
G3 =F|(D/C/)(_B,/C/) (D/_E) =F/-|=F2 z1 _B|
w:broad fight|ing_ for_ stran-_gers| When
=F2 F F/(G/-|
w:you could be safe
M:2/4
G/=F/)(_E/D/)|
w:__at
M:4/4
C2 z1 G|=F _B, A,3/2 B,/-|_B,4|z4|
w:home free|from all dan-gers
z3 E/^C/|B, E E F|G G G F/E/|D D (D/C/)B,/C/|
w:A re|cruit-ing ser-geant|came our way to an|inn near by_ at the
D D D E|B, E E/D/E/F/|G (F/G/) G A/G/|G/G/G/G/ G/F/E/G/|
w:close of day He|said young John-ny you're a|fine young_ man would you|like to march a-long be-hind a
F/F/F/F/ F E/F/|G G/G/-G z/ A/|F F F G/F/|G G F E|F2 F A|
w:mil-i-tar-y band with a|scar-let coat_ A|big cocked hat and a|mus-ket at your|shoul-der The
B/A/G/A/ G/F/(G/F/)|E/F/- F E D|E/E/E/E/ E D|E2 E z1|]
w:shil-ling he took and he kissed_|the book_ oh poor|John-ny what'-ll hap-pen|to you


Same as above, but with lyrics, hopefully aligned properly. If you find any errors let me know. Is this a good way of doing it? Feedback welcome.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 12:50 PM

Just a small point 'He who would valiant be' and 'To be a pilgrim' are the same hymn. One line is the first and the other the last!

Subject: Lyr Add: OUR CAPTAIN CRIED ALL HANDS
From: GUEST,JohnB
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 12:51 PM

If yo go here and click on the "Monksgate" clicky you will get the tune which I use to the words below. I think I stole it from Martin Carthy. There again every time I go back to my source, to hear something which I have been singing for years, I say what the hell is that, that's not what I sing. The Oral or Aural Tradition I guess. I seem to have gained an extra vesrse somewhere along the way.

OUR CAPTAIN CRIED ALL HANDS

Our captain cried all hands, and away tomorrow
leaving those girls behind, in grieve and sorrow
What makes you go abroad, fighting for strangers
When you could be safe at home, free from all dangers

Oh you courted me a while just to deceive me
Now my heart you have gained, and you means to leave me
Saying there's no belief in man, not my own brother
So girls if you can love, love one another.

Oh I'll roll you in my arms, my dearset jewel
So stay at home with me and don't be cruel
She lay down on the ground, like one was dying
This house was full of grief, sighing and crying.

Now when I had gold in store, how you did invite me
But now my love I'm poor and you seems to slight me
Dry up your Brandied tears and leave off weeping
For happy we shall be, at our next meeting.

Farewell my dearest friends, father and mother
I am your only child and I have no Brother
It's in vain to weep for me, for I am going
To everlasting Joys, with Fountains flowing.

JohnB.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:15 PM

Just one comment on the tune Monksgate

If we split the music into chunks as A B and C, then if I remember right,

'Our Captain cries' as sung by Carthy has the structure ABBC for one verse

'To be a pilgrim' has AABC

I don't know which was the original though.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: OldPossum
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:20 PM

Thank you Mrs. Duck and JohnB. The second part of the tune in JohnB's link is the same as the tune of the so-called "chorus" of "Fighting for Strangers" (it actually appears only at the beginning and the end of the piece). Clearly the statement in the DT that the tune is "He Who Would Valiant Be" is only partially correct.

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: GUEST,pavane
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 01:25 PM

Actually, 'Our captain cried all hands' should properly be called
The Distressed Maid, as there are several printed versions, all with only slight differences, under that title in the Bodleian collection.

Subject: Tune Add: OUR CAPTAIN CALLS
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Dec 02 - 05:43 PM

Thanks to Old Possum for the tune from Steeleye Span. A little more information re. subsequent posts:

Roud 602

The text John quotes has only a few words changed from the collated one recorded by Martin Carthy. He took his text from James Reeves' book The Idiom of the People (1958; pp.165-6), not The Everlasting Circle, as he mistakenly wrote in his sleevenotes. His first three verses were noted by Cecil Sharp from Mrs. Overd at Langport, Somerset, 30 July 1904; the final two from Mrs. Elizabeth Smitherd at Tewkesbury, Gloucestershire, 10 April 1908. Carthy didn't use either Mrs. Overd's or Mrs. Smitherd's tune (Reeves printed texts only) and instead set the texts to a tune noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams from Mrs. Verrall of Monk's Gate, Horsham, Sussex, 2 Dec 1904. The original verses have been combined in twos to fit the longer tune.

Vaughan Williams adapted Mrs. Verrall's tune in order to fit it to Bunyan's poem. Here it is as originally noted:

X:1
T:Our Captain Calls
S:Mrs. Verrall, Monk's Gate, Horsham, Sussex, Dec 22 1904.
Z:Noted by Ralph Vaughan Williams.
B:Journal of the Folk Song Society, vol.II issue 8, 1906.
L:1/8
Q:1/4=140
M:4/4
K:G
(GA)|B2 G2 (Bc) d2|e4 d4|d2 G2 (EF) G2|
w:Our_ cap-tain calls_ all hands on board to-mor-*row
z6 d2|g2 e2 f2 gf|e6 d2|(BA) G2 (Bc) d2|
w:Lea-ving my dear to_ mourn in grief_ and sor-*row
z6 d2|g2 e2 f2 (gf)|e6 d2|(BA) G2 Bc d2|
w:Dry up those bri-*ny tears and leave_ off weep-*ing
z6 g2|d3 d (ed) (cB)|
w:So hap-py may_ we_
M:5/4
(A2 c2) e2 d2 G2|F2 G2|]
w:be_ at our next meet-ing.


Of the sets in the DT, OUR CAPTAIN CRIED ALL HANDS acknowledges no source of any kind. I have no idea if it's a genuine traditional variant or not. The tune provided (and the verse set to it in the download DT) was noted by Dr. George Gardiner from George Smith at Fareham, Hampshire, August 1906. Neither singer nor collector are mentioned, and the DT text appears to be from a completely different source.

OUR CAPTAIN CALLS is copied from Stephen Sedley's The Seeds of Love. The source of the text (acknowledged by Sedley but not by the DT) was Mrs. Overd, though some changes have been made to it by Sedley for his usual impenetrable reasons. The tune doesn't belong to it, being the one Sharp noted from Mrs. Smitherd, and the download DT sets the first verse of The Blacksmith to it instead. That too is taken from Sedley, who included a text collated from several sources as an alternative text for Mrs. Smitherd's tune. That text is also in the DT: BLACKSMITH COURTED ME, with Sedley's already unhelpful note on provenance quoted inaccurately. What he actually said was

"...collated from Sharp's manuscripts, a York broadside c.1825, and an apparently authentic but unidentified manuscript note in a copy of the Folk Song Society Journal at Cecil Sharp House."

Subject: Lyr Add: THE DISTRESSED MAID
From: pavane
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 08:07 AM

For comparison, here is one of the texts from the Bodley collection
It was selected only because it is more legible than some of the others. There are places where this one is awkward to scan, and others may be better.

It seems clear that the first verse is by the man and the second and third by the girl.

THE DISTRESSED MAID
Ref Firth c.12(120)

Our captain calls all hands away tomorrow
To leave my dearest girl in grief and sorrow
Dry up those tears and leave off weeping
How happy shall we be at our next meeting

How can you go abroad fighting for a stranger
You had better stay at home free from all danger
I will roll you in my arms, my dearest jewel
So stay at home with me and do not be cruel

When I had gold and silver, you did invite me
But now I am low and poor, you seem to slight me
There is no believeing man, no, not your own brother
So maids, if you must love, love one another

Down on the ground she fell, like one a dying
Wringing her hands abroad, sighing and crying
He courted me a while, just to deceive me
Now my poor heart he's got he's going to leave me

Farewel(l) my dearest dear father and mother
Don't grieve for your dear child you have no other
Don't grieve for me, pray, for I am going
To everlasting joys, where fountains are flowing

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: pavane
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 08:06 AM

More information: Some of the same words occur in an even older song, The Maidens Lamentation
, printed in the 1670's.

A version in the Bodleian Broadside collection starts

Alas my dearest joy, why wilt thou leave me
Of thy sweet company, do not bereave me
I shall but pine away if thou go from me
Then prethee dearest, stay & do not wrong me

Why wilt thou cross the seas to fight with strangers
When thou mayst live at ease, free from all dangers
I'le fold thee in mine arms, nothing shall grive thee
I'le keep thee from all harms, dear do not leave me

Tune is "I am so deep in love or Cupid's Courtesie" - I haven't yet checked them out

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 15 Jul 10 - 08:31 AM

Steeleye Span.. Fighting for Strangers

Subject: RE: Help: Fighting for Strangers
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jul 10 - 09:07 AM

Rather than Steeleye Span's version, here's a version collected from Phoebe Smith of Woodbridge, Suffolk:

A blacksmith courted me
Nine long months or better
And he who gained my heart
Wrote to me a letter
With his hammer in his hand
Strikes his blows so neat and clever
And if I was with my love
I'd live for ever

Now he talks about going abroad
Fighting for strangers
And you'd better stay at home
Keep from all dangers
For you stay at home with me
My dearest jewel
And you stay at home with me
And don't prove cruel

My true love's gone across the sea
With his cheeks like roses
My true love's gone across the sea
With his cheeks like roses
I'm afraid the broiling sun
Will spoil his beauty
And if I was with my love
I would do love's duty

For it's once I had gold in store
They all seemed to like me
And now I'm low and poor
They all seem to slight me
For there ain't no belief in a man
Nor your own brother
So it's girls, whenever you love
Love one another.

Her tune is a variation of that which became "Monksgate". However "Monksgate" was adapted by Vaughan Williams from the tune sung by Mrs Verrall of Monksgate in Sussex, and evens out some of the changes of rhythm. Don't expect to sing the folk song to "Monksgate" without having to stretch the tune to fit, and even then (although a fine tune) it's a pale shadow of the original traditional version.

Phoebe can be heard singing this on the album "I Once Had a True Love" issued by Topic in 1970. I can't find it in their current catalogue, but it can be heard on Spotify if you have access to that, and is well worth a listen.