Help: Big apple origin?

Subject: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 05:38 AM

One of my colleagues has asked me why New York was called the Big Apple.
I found a piece that explained it originated as African American racecourse workers' slang name for the NY racetrack which became used in the jazz world for the city and then adopted as a marketing identity to attract tourists.
BUT why the racecourse? Its shape? Proximity of apple trees? Or what?
As my colleague flatteringly said "Roger knows everything" I need to redeem my reputation here at work.
Only on the Mudcat is the dreadful guilty secret known: I KNOW NOTHING, I just know a man or woman who DOES know!
RtS (just because I'm certain doesn't mean I'm right)

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 06:22 AM

etymology of Big Apple.

Wolfgang (who prefers his friends for a good talk and a search machine for information gathering)

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 06:27 AM

A slightly different story

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 06:29 AM

Yes, Wolfgang that's exactly the information I had found but it still doesn't explain why the racetrack got its name. I'm sure once the New Yorkers are up one of them will respond.
Larry, wakey wakey!
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 06:30 AM

and here's the story from an African American angle

Wolfgang (who sometimes loves to surf when urgent work is waiting)

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 10:41 AM

I think Wolfgang's "A Slightly Different Story" means that ANY New York racetrack would have been considered "the Big Apple" not one particular one. Since horses like apples as a food treat I'm guessing "the Big Apple" was considered the best treat of all (i.e. racing on a track in New York). I don't know much about horse racing (except that occasionally I've won a few bucks betting on the right one!) but perhaps when the term was coined New York was considered the mecca of horseracing.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 11:34 AM

My first thought was that it ain't no small potatoes, but I couldn't find any print backup.*g*

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 11:39 AM

I don't think we'll ever know the REAL truth.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Karen
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 01:39 PM

Probably not but the "real truth" is usually very boring anyway. I prefer hearing the "elaborated versions" myself!!

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Burke
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 02:42 PM

Minneapolis sometimes goes by the cognate Mini Apple. While not suggesting it as an origin, pehaps a reason the name works is because the Greek polis for city, is used for naming number of US cities: Indianapolis, Anapolis. I can see where The Big Apple = The Bigapolis, has a nice ring.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 02:48 PM

Seattle back in the 1970's had a contest to "give the city a middle name." There were already some nicknames floating around (Jet City, Queen City) but none had universal recognition. So the chamber of commerce (or some such group) held a contest. The winner was "The Emerald City." This doesn't have universal recognition either -- many people despise it. So Seattle still has no middle name.

Tacoma, on the other hand, has always been, and proudly remains, the City of Destiny.

Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: LR Mole
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 02:53 PM

So where does that leave the Great White Way? What a pare!Some appeal anyway. Getting to core issues.Either orchard.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Peg
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 05:21 PM

This thread is gettin' saucy...

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 05:40 PM

No reason to get crabby Peg.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 05:50 PM

Okay let's bury all these apple puns in a shallow gravenstein.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 06:06 PM

As my wise old Granny Smith used to say.....

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: mousethief
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 06:31 PM

These puns are far from being Delicious.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Greyeyes
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 06:37 PM

A 'Cox' on your apple puns, I 'crumble' under your displeasure, toodle 'pip'.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 08:15 PM

I've always found city nicknames fascinating. I grew up in the City of Brotherly Love, which is simply a translation of the Greek name. It was also known as the Quaker City, after the founder, whose woods became the name of the state. I wonder how many of these nicknames were first forced on the citizens by a newspaper, booster club, etc. (Well, at least I didn't make some comment about my Macintosh. That's because I have a Compaq.)

Aloha,
Mark (in Hilo, Where Rain Reigns)

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Wendy_
Date: 08 Mar 01 - 10:43 PM

I thought Karen's suggestion that "apple" suggested a tasty treat made alot of sense. But I looked up apple in the Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang, and the very first slang definition it gave for apple was... a horse turd! As in, 'Some horse dung being washed by the current from a neighbouring dunghill, espied a number of fair apples swimming up the stream, when, wishing to be thought of consequence, the horse dung would every moment be bawling out, "Lack-a-day, how we apples swim!' (from G. Ashton, Eng. Satire on Napoleon, about 1800)


(ok, the dictionary gave more than 10 other usages, so I wouldn't necessarily read too much into that.)

Regarding our meaning, the dictionary said rather less than the links Wolfgang gave above. I did like this quote: 'The average Lane today is from the Apple, or at least from some Apple, whether it's the Big Apple, the Windy Apple, the Tropic Apple, or the Bunker Hill Apple.' (from Burley, Harlem Jive, 1944).

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:08 AM

Thanks for all contributions. The info' I'd originally found satisfied my colleague ( or rather, as I found out later, her daughter's homework!) but the basic derivation backa t the racetrack doesn't seem to be documented.
My guess is A=Apple , A=Top Grade and the two were put together and improved by "Big" to make the superlative.
But I've been wrong before. No, really, I have! *BG*
RtS

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Mar 01 - 09:20 AM

I'd go with Burke's suggestion of that apple is a corruption of -apolis, so NY was Bigapolis. Wendy's quote "the Big Apple, the Windy Apple,..." would seem to back that up

But what do I know?

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 18 Feb 04 - 01:21 PM

There was a mention of this today on the Leonard Lopate Show on WNYC (can be gotten on line @ WNYC.org). It agrees with the New Orleans Stablehand interpretation and adds that they called New York the Big Apple because the tracks in New York had the largest purses. The first appearance in print was as the title of a Newspaper column in the early 20's.

The nickname "The Great White Way" for Broadway came from the amount of lighting put there by the theater district. It is my understanding that Broadway was the first New York Avenue to be lit by electricity for its entire length.

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 05:28 PM

Looking for origins in literature can be misconstrued since most writers beg borrow or steal stories from the lower order;) So, my take: here in the GPNW all the best fruit, all the best logs, etc. were exported to Japan. I read the same was true for New York City; all the best of everything went to NYC. Now it stands to reason if you're a apple farmer in Tennessee NYC would be The Big Apple, and it could be the denizens of Gotham liked this saying so much, (being easily flattered), they glommed onto it, and then the argument began: what genius, (or low life), was the originator of said phrase.
Frodenizenshe Weihnachten

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GerryM
Date: 24 Dec 20 - 05:45 PM

Aqueduct Racetrack in New York City is known as The Big A.

My favorite city nickname is for Buffalo, New York, known as The City of No Illusions. Buffalo and Cleveland take turns referring to each other as "The Mistake on the Lake".

Subject: RE: Help: Big apple origin?
From: GUEST,paperback
Date: 26 Dec 20 - 12:20 AM

Of course, there's alway the religious connotation to consider:
"Now, get me a big one, I feel like doin' a Big Apple!" Mae West
source