BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away

Subject: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From:
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 10:24 PM

I won't be reading any messages or posting other than to the p.p.-related posts until it goes away. I realize this could encourage some to keep it going under that header forever but so be it. I cannot believe we would collectively tolerate a message that says "welcome to Pol Pot." As I asked there, what would be the response to "welcome Adolph Hitler". They are about equally evil as far as I can tell. A portal to evil incarnate is now open and I'll just do my little bit. Happy St. Patrick's Day. After your celebrations, please on Sunday rent "the Killing Fields" and see how welcome the monster should be. Or talk to your Cambodian neighbors. mg

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 10:27 PM

Mary, did you see my answer to your question on the other thread?

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:09 PM

Works for me - ought to send him back to Cambodia - I'm sure there are a few folks there that could use him - use him up maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:13 PM

Shall we sign a petition in the thread, Mary, to ask that the thread title be changed? I know usually Joe or Max won't do that without the request of the original poster and I know the whole thing was done with heavy irony, but it is an ugly thing to see and I think it could be better named.

Before anyone has a cow and starts yelling about censorship or amending...I am only asking, not demanding and I do think this us is a rather unique case.

How about it, Joe, Max, if enough of us sign on here and ask that it be changed, would you oblige?

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 01 - 11:17 PM

She doesn't want the title changed. She wants the welcome post to be gone. I'd like it to be gone, too. I'm tired and I want to go to bed.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Banjer
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:12 AM

I didn't even open the thread because I didn't know who or what a Pol Pot is. It's just one of those things that if one is not interested just ignore it...I know sometimes it's hard to overlook some things, but I wouldn't let such a thing ruin my enjoyment of the Mudcat, which overall is one of the best sites on the web.

Carol C...I'm tired and I want to go to bed.? Sounds like there might be a song in there **G**

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:32 AM

I'm with Mary on this. Irrelevant and tasteless nonsense. Some of the BS stuff really makes me wonder although I support the right to speak freely and am against censorship. It seems to me some people just have to abuse the freedom they fortunately have.

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:07 AM

Banjer does the smart, mature, responsible thing... If ya don't like it, don't read it... easy as that...

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Midchuck
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:33 AM

My understanding of the original post was that he was saying that anyone whose political convictions are anything other than modern politically-correct liberalism is no better than Pol Pot, and is unwelcome here.

So much for welcoming diversity of opinion in this place, but I knew that.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:15 AM

Peter,

I have to agree. I think it was in pretty bad taste but as a friend from Cambodia commented after reading the related threads: at least you can say it and the worse that happens is some people get mad. As he lost family to Pol Pot, I'd sort of expected something more vehement, although he can hold forth at length on the US support for Pol Pot.

Kat,

I'm not sure how re-naming it changes anything or why this is a "unique case". For me, statements like that wave a red flag and I have to ask: Under what conditions is a little censorship okay? What criteria can be applied? Because its "just a mudcat forum"?

I understand the motivation and a part of me agrees, but I suggest that looking at it a little deeper reveals a (potentially) more serious issue: That of prior restraint. While hardly a landmark first amendment issue, it points out the old truth: no one ever has to argue to have popular speech or ideas protected.. Lets change the name. And the next time it will be a little easier. Starting is always easy. Its stopping that causes problems/

Which wasn't my take on your motivation. It would just seem to be a sort of "collateral damage".

If all 8500+ registered mudcatters voted to change the name, would that make it any more right?

I think the use of Pol Pot's name to make a point was in pretty bad taste. The same can be said for a lot satire. It's supposed to make people feel uncomfortable. This one certainly did.

The solution would seem to be not to read it.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:17 AM

"I won't be reading any messages or posting other than to the p.p.-related posts until it goes away." Do I understand you're going to make it go away by contributing to it? Somehow, I don't think that will work. You want beast to go away, don't feed beast.

I don't read the political threads anymore, because it's the "same old sh*t, different day." I'm very happy not reading them.

Midchuck, I agree. There's a common ploy to use when arguing - demonizing. Pol Pot just decided to pre-empt people. "You can't call me anything worse than I'll call myself." The discussions become about the people involved and how evil or stupid they are instead of about the issues. In my opinion, the only people likely to win one of those demonizing matches are the ones who doesn't engage in one, and instead stick to the topic.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:03 AM

Kudos to John (Skeptic)

First of all, I read the original posting in the mentioned thread. There is nothing in it that makes me think the post was romanticizing or truly supporting Pol Pot. You may not have found it funny, but I don't see how you could truly think anyone involved in the thread truly supports the policies of Pol Pot.

And YES I do think the responses would have been exactly the same if the thread said welcome Adolph Hitler. After all, Adolph Hitler has now been mentioned in this thread and I would be suprised to see a new boycott started because of it.

I'm not sure I agree that using Pol Pot's name was in really bad taste...satire only works if the reader recognizes the subject matter. It would not have even been recognizable as satire if the guy chose the name of some kid from his elementary school that he didn't like.

I think Pol Pot's name should be used in more satire. I think we should use it so often that whenever somebody does something bad we say he's being like Pol Pot. Let's not just pretend the man never existed and never mention his name again...that would dishonor those who stood up to him or were persecuted by him.

Finally, peace comes through communication. I am appalled that you would say that you refuse to participate until somebody makes that post go away. Shame on you. That doesn't sound like something a rational individual would say...it sounds more like something Pol Pot would say.

"Understand that change begins with the individual"

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:04 AM

Everyone here has a line they cannot cross. Those lines co-exist here all the time. We don't stop to notice how often people here choose to keep communicating despite seeing something going on that seems deeply wrong.

What we CAN do is learn from the things we do. If people are going to unleash topics that provoke political rancor, there are going to be ripples that spread all over the Mudcat. Each time this happens, we can't go back and change what we did, but we CAN and we DO take note and change what we do NEXT. This is how real life works. It goes forward, always, even if we don't feel like it does.

One thing we can choose to look at is whether someone calling himself "[pick any demon, hitler, etc.]" IS that person.... if Hitler, Pol Pot, Jeffrey Dahmer, etc. strolled in here, we would react a certain way and it would be justified by what they have actually done. But to react the same way to someone co-opting one of those names is as unnecessary as taking all 6 Jesuses at the your local madhouse seriously and praying to them.

Someone has taken a stance by using tactics that restimulate deep, justified distresses. But that does not rob us of our obligation to respond with our best selves, our minds, and our sense.

If saber-rattling is a skill one has, and one must therefore use it, is it not more effectively used on the REAL evildoers that compare to these historical "originals"? Is it worth the time and energy to try to deal with one so small as these we see here at Mudcat, when there are Big Bad Guys (and Gals) out there actually running things?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mkebenn
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:14 AM

I'm all too aware of Pol Pot, "The Killing Fields" made me sick, and I never opened the thread because of that. Mike

Subject: my boycott
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:16 AM

I have no lines... show me a line and I'll be more than happy to do a dance across it and back again!

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:20 AM

Well said, Skeptic, of course, you are right. I was after all only musing. thanks

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:32 AM

UB DAN...........Reading your post from top to bottom, I could not agree more or stated it better. Thanks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:22 AM

UB Dan,

Thanks for the kind words. Its hard work being right all the time but someone has to do it. :-)

BTW, My "bad taste" comment was related more to some of the sensibilities expressed here than as a general rule.

Kat,

I knew you were musing. You have now found one of my "lines" that I react and overreact to. :-)

Susan,

There are certainly lines. My concern is that I get to draw my own lines (as much as possible), not have them drawn for me. Or if they are, get to accept them affirmatively.

There are the big battles and the skirmishes. This is a very minor skirmish. (I hope). They all need to be "fought".

And I agree, there should be some sense of "place". Most people recognize that Church or Temple or Sacred Circle isn't the best place to tell certain kind of jokes. (Except maybe spaw?)

The same general acceptance of "place" doesn't exist for the Mudcat forums, although it's clear some people thought they did.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:34 AM

Yes, John, and if we draw them ourselves and take responsibility for doing it, we can move them, too.

I've been thinking since my last post-- a bad habit that can lead to more posts. I am thinking that I wish that before posting earlier, or even days ago when she first objected to the Pol Pot business, that I had messaged Mary, and asked her if what she was trying to say was, "This hurts me. Could you please stop." Because I have trouble hearing that when it isn't said straight out. But people also have a hard time saying it straight out-- I have trouble saying it straight out myself.

Instead it is so much easier to say, "YOU make me feel like THIS." Or "YOU should do THIS so I won't have to feel THAT." Or "MY feelings are a reliable guide to YOUR action." Or "YOU are wrong because what is RIGHT is...."

So then I've been wondering how often I've been drawn into a debate that started with what really was meant to say, "This is what hurts me." I KNOW how I prefer to respond to that kind of statement. It's just real hard to know when to read that between the lines and when to take someone's words at face value. It's an area where I see myself changing-- so the older guidelines I used to use, sometimes without deep thought, are shifting.

There are those kinds of lines too.

Hopefully we all have those too, and hopefully they all shift as we put in more time on the planet. I know if I had to see everyone *here* as rigidly, inescapably, and eternally committed to any one thing they have said, it would be a world I would not care to live in.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:37 AM

I drew a line
I drew a line for you
Oh what a thing to do
And it was all yellow...

(just bringing it all back home to music)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:56 AM

It was yellow? Here I thought it was Pink. What were you drawing with?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:26 AM

I'm going to hold my breath until all threads about Bob Dylan drop out of the archives. Don't try and stop me.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:36 PM

If noone posts to a thread it disappears so why not just ignore it and let it go away. Each time someone posts it brings it back to the top of the list. Damn I just did that.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Amergin
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 12:48 PM

Yeah, Alex? Well, I'll just up you a bit and refuse to sing until Danny Boy and When Irish Eyes Are Smiling are stricken forever from the memories of mankind.....

No need to go celebrating everyone....

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:00 PM

Can't argue. Turning blue.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:20 PM

Tangled up in blue, don't you mean??

Spaw, the lines are always yellow if your on the road painting crew.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:22 PM

I'll get you for that, Matt.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:28 PM

Do we really ALL want the right to read EVERY single thread and not get upset occasionally. Yours Interestedly GB

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:30 PM

The real test of free speech is whether we're willing to give it to people we disagree with, or who offend us. If not, then it's not really free.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: John Routledge
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:30 PM

Do we really ALL want the right to read EVERY single thread and not get upset occasionally. Yours Interestedly GB

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:41 PM

Oh Danny Boy
The pipes, the pipes are calling
From glen to glen
And down...
Still breathing guys?

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,Midchuck upstairs
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM

But come ye baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack, when Summer's in the meaaaaaaaaaaaaaadddooooooooooooowww....

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM

I can understand how someone could find the message to not be humorous in a disinterested way, but I still don't see how it was offensive...unless someone was upset that the object of ridicule was olpay otpay (pig latin for the one who's name cannot be uttered...and I'm afraid that even his initials may do harm)

oray enwhay ethay alleysvay ushedhay anday itewhay ithway owsnay......

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM

I know this is terribly obnoxious of me, but I'm going to do it anyway.

To all of you who kept telling me that I should back off because flame wars go away by themselves:

I told you so.

This thing is escalating. There is now a Pol Pot 2 thread. Have fun with your flame war. I'm going to go write in my diary thread.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 02:59 PM

I remember reading that when Dean Jonathan Swift wrote A Modest Proposal - his pamphlet which suggested that the way of dealing with poverty in Ireland would be to introduce an organised system of child cannibalism, he came under attack from two lots of people.

He was attacked by people who recognised that he was attacking the way in which Ireland was governed, and the poor oppressed and exploited.

But he was also attacked by people who took him literally and believed that he was in fact making a serious suggestion.

Sometimes people appear to have a satire bypass. And not just in the 18th century. "Welcome Pol Pot", was clearly "Guest 0lder and wiser"'s way of saying precisely the opposite - saying that there should be limits on the type of extremism that should be welcomed at the Mudcat. Which I don't take as a call for censorship - not being welcomed is not the same as being excluded. I can think of a good few people I wouldn't want to drink with, but I wouldn't feel I had a right to tell the landlord to chuck them out.

I can see why someone might disagree about the precise place where the line gets drawn, and feel that in this case the poster was over reacting. But I am bewildered at the idea that anyone could see it as meant literally.

Interesting to see that Hitler has retreated into history enough to have his first name misspelled as Adolph instead of Adolf (and the spell checker I use makes the sam,e nmistake). I'm not sure if that's a bad thing or a good thing. I suppose it's inevitable, the same way people will cheerfully talk about others or themselves as being "to the right of Genghis Khan." Time doesn't heal wounds, but there's definitely a chronological desensitisation process.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:10 PM

McGrath of Harlow, I think some people might have a problem with your stance for this reason. I think the issue is not so much whether or not it is appropriate for someone like MAV to be welcomed into the Mudcat. I think the issue is whether or not one Mudcatter has a right to tell another Mudcatter they can't welcome someone like MAV into the Mudcat. That does seem like censorship to some people.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:29 PM

Cheers to McGrath of Harlow for a message well written and a lesson (spelling) well taught.

imagine my embarrassment - 'ph' indeed. "A rose by any other name..." (this is not meant to imply that any dictator, past or present, smells sweet)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:35 PM

Can't? Or oughtn't? I mean we can say "you can't do that" all we want, but obviously people can post whatever they please. But who said "you must not welcome Mav"? I don't remember reading that.

And the second PP thread is merely a masturbation exercise for somebody who is staying anonymous. No named mudcatter is going there to respond. So it's hardly a flame war at all. Hopefully it will stay that way.

Carol, we don't need a second conscience. Even Jiminy Cricket is out of work now that Pinocchio is a Real Boy.

Alex

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM

I'm sure you're right, mousethief. The playing field is all yours. Enjoy.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: GUEST,Cleigh O'Possum
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 04:41 PM

I am offended deeply by the thread asking for lyrics to a song about chopped up possums. AS a longtime Mudcat Icon and participant though, I realize that we are all easily offended sometimes and the best thing to do is say your piece and just ignore the nasty people whenever you can. I always try to ignore Cletus and if I can do that then almost anything is possible.

Cleigh O'Possum

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 04:48 PM

Hear, Hear, McGrath! Nicely done. Next round's on me.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Jande
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:02 PM

Mousethief said: "The real test of free speech is whether we're willing to give it to people we disagree with, or who offend us. If not, then it's not really free."

I agree. And I will accede to those people the right, because I want it myself. But begrudgingly, at first, though sometimes with quickening interest in the ensueing discussion that teaches me who I am dealing with and what the boundaries may become of our being together, however briefly .

~ Jande (Seanna Rowe)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 05:31 PM

Thanks McGrath, I'm reassured. I'm bewildered by some of the reactions here...

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:08 PM

It has finally come full circle and thanks to McGrath who could see it for what it was. I posted third on that thread and found it frankly humorous, a lovely bit of satire and a nice touch of irony thrown in.

The real situation was not with "older and wiser" but to start out with, the problem was Mav. My choice, and its only mine, was to keep an eye on him but certainly not welcome him......and I said then, that, like a snake, if you befriend it, you will eventually be bitten because it is after all, a snake. I made no judgement about anyone else or what they should do....I simply expressed my opinion. It is still my opinion.

But Mav does have his share of enemies and friends around the place and that's as it should be. I didn't see where it was very useful to start a "welcome" thread for him at this late date as Flattop did.........and I think ol' Flats knew exactly the reaction it would get. Were you to ask me, I'd say that the welcome thread was a troll and designed to stir the pot a bit. But then, the pot gets stirred around here all the time.....not a big deal.

You.....me....Mav....Flattop....guests.....we all have a chance to speak openly here. Hurt feelings are an unfortunate part of it as well and though I can empathize with those whose feelings are hurt, it is often the price you pay for that freedom you so desire. PolPot didn't give many the chance to have hurt feelings, but instead made them unable to have any feelings at all.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:09 PM

Hurt feelings are a fact of life. Life is hard. Get used to it, peoples.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 06:57 PM

Sorry. I think that's a cop out. I think that a mature bunch of civilized people can communicate in a way that doesn't involve mean spirited behavior. (Not being anyone's conscience, just speaking my mind.)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:03 PM

True enough. I think it was the hurt feelings when I was a kid that really left lasting damage. Mudcat is "child's play" compared to that.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:04 PM

If mean-spirited behavior were the only cause of hurt feelings, Carol, the world would be a piece of cake.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:07 PM

I guess I don't get your point mousethief.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:30 PM

Carol, you cannot control mean spirited behavior, whatever that is ans however you define it, any more than you can control speech in a place like this....and frankly in the rest of the world. I doubt that you'd ever get agreement on the definitions anyway. Yours are yours.....MT's are his......mine are mine. Same with thick skin and tolerance levels...we're all different. What's mean to you may be nothing to me.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:46 PM

No, Spaw, you can't control it. And maybe I would be hard pressed to define it as well. But the Mudcat isn't the real world. It's a website owned by Max, and it exists because he has decided that it will. He can just as easily decide that it won't exist.

So I guess what I'm most concerned with is what happens when the people who post here become such a pain in the ass for him, as has happened on several occasions in just in the few months since I've been here, that he starts questioning whether or not he want's to continue to put his time, energies, and money into keeping it going.

Maybe, every time we post, we shouldn't be thinking, "is this going to hurt the person I'm writing it to". Maybe we should be thinking, is this going to cause a pain in the ass for Max.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 07:49 PM

Hmmm...the sheer volume of stuff going in here must be enough to boggle the mind. How much of Max's time and energy is eaten up by maintaining this site, I wonder?

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:05 PM

Quote: I think that a mature bunch of civilized people can communicate in a way that doesn't involve mean spirited behavior. Enquote

I think that statement/belief assumes that this forum is the 'normal' means of communication and of course, it is not. In one's own home, you can guide, even govern, how communication develops- and when you give up on somebody, out they go.

Here on this forum, we are a diverse group with no control over or foreknowledge of people who read or post. All it takes is one person who is a stirrer and it will send a number of us into a spin. I admit I'm one of them. And I suppose a great deal of my outrage often stems from the judgment that one 'shouldn't' be allowed to do or say that. It takes me quite awhile before I come again to the realization that control is impossible.

The reason I don't welcome mav (still say there's nothing big about him- although I'm willing to have my mind changed) is not because he is right wing, it is because he has been nasty and a bully. I've said in previous threads that I have a brother (4 brothers- 3 are great) who has always handled conflict or differences of opinion in that same way. He outshouts any attempts at discussion or protest. That is what mav does too. That's why I wouldn't have mav in my home in his present mode but hey, if everyone else wants him here, no problem. I do have an 'off' button.

I still say that I hope mav comes to realize that the fun here is not conflict but the sharing of community. And he may. Others have done it. In which case I will be happy to welcome him.

As for the p.p.post, I take it as satirical- there's really no other way to take it, imo, the same as if we had a thread 'welcoming' Josef Stalin or Idi Amin or George Custer or Lizzie Borden. However, if my parents or other loved ones had died at the hands of or through the policies of any of those people or even if I were feeling someone else's pain, I might well have a different reaction.

I do think starting the second pp post after being specifically asked not to use that term again was an act of mean-spiritedness. But some of us do react badly in the presence of hurting people, especially when our reaction is scorn at their taking it literally.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:11 PM

Carol,

Max sets the rules. Based on his beliefs, values, perceptions and whims. Asking that people "consider Max" before posting because he might shut the forums down is preaching prior restraint.

I can apprecaite your concern but if you value free speech, you take the good with the bad and the mediocre.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:19 PM

HEY!!! Lizzie Border has been proven innocent! I read from new scientific datd, it showed that the maid (whom the father was having an affair with) killed them.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:22 PM

The first reason for everything I do is always the same.

THE POINT OF THIS WEB SITE IS HAPPINESS

If I can't get it or deliver it, there is no point, and POOF it's gone.

Keep it light, take it easy, relax, enjoy your stay, and just be happy.

--Max

August 7, 2000

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:39 PM

Well there ya' go Carol. I have no idea whether Max is happy or not, but as he rarely gets into these things, he may not even be aware of it.

I think Mav is happy. I'm happy. Ebbie, Matt, and John seem happy. Just relax and enjoy the parts that make you happy. This one doesn't amount to a hill of beans. Would you like me to link one that was the possibly the worst?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 08:56 PM

Spaw, since I've been a member here, every single time things have escalated into an out of control situation on the Mudcat, Max has had to step in and pull us back into line. I know you've seen it as well as me, because you've posted to the threads in which everyone apologizes to Max for being such a pain in the ass.

As I said before, it is possible for us to express our viewpoints, whatever they may be, in a way that does not escalate into a flame war. I don't understand why people are being so glib about this. It just isn't necessary for us to get to the point where Max ends up having to step in.

And do you know which part embarasses me the most? Max is only half our age. But he keeps having to come in and act like the grownup while we act like a bunch of children.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:09 PM

...and what I should have said, but forgot, is - do you wait until you have a full blown flame war of the first order going before you start acting like a grownup, or do you start before things get to that point?

People keep telling me "it's not so bad, we've had worse". Well, those flame wars started out just like this one. The only difference is, with those ones, nobody changed their behavior until things were totally out of control. Why wait until things get to that point?

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:10 PM

'Spaw, I think a link might be useful here, yes.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:12 PM

"Max is only half our age. But he keeps having to come in and act like the grownup while we act like a bunch of children."

Ah but I was older then, I'm so much younger now.

(That's not always an improvement...)

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:24 PM

LOL, Matt!

I had even forgotten there was a maid. How about linking us to your source? I wonder if Ms. Borden rests easier these days?

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 09:35 PM

Yes McGrath, and you can be as young as I, if like a crab you could crawl backward...

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:19 PM

Spaw,

Happy? That was supposed to make me happy. I thought it was building up karma to atone for future sins (of which many are planned)

Ebbie,

As I spent a lot of time debating mav, I have to disagree in part. After a rocky start, we ended up having a fairly civil discussion with some teasing from both sides.

However, it really does take more than one to have a flame war. And virtual bullies are easy to deal with and avoid.

Carol,

I suspect that the reason Max can step in is that he isn't involved in all this and doesn?t develop a personal stake in the outcome. And does he step in because he gets a lot of PM's?

Age brings wrinkles and gray hair, not (necessarily) wisdom, judgement or tolerance. Of which virtual examples abound.

Matt R,

Does sort of screw up the poem though.

"The Borden's maid took and ax and gave her employer 40 whacks......." or "You can't chop your employer up in Massachusetts ....."

No, I can't see it.

In the interests of poetry and song, I say we get a court to declare that she did do it, no matter what the evidence says.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:35 PM

Yeah, maybe you could send her down to Texas, the home of wrongly-convicted deathrow inmates. Ah, but that's another thread...

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 10:41 PM

Skeptic, your posting history says you joined in October. That may mean you missed the big flame war we had here in August. And I've read threads from some of the previous flame wars. The difference between a flame war and free speech, is with a flame war, people are attacking each other all over the Mudcat.

It starts with one thread. Then it spreads to another thread. Then two more threads are started to protest the first two. Then people are fighting all over the place. And they are vicious about it. And they begin to make personal threats. And members go underground. And Max gets PMs about it. Then he steps in and says enough.

There is no lack of wisdom in such a move under those circumstances. It's true that we are not at that point right now. But I've seen things escalate the way they have been the last few days and end up at that point. I don't see why we have to get to that point in the first place. If we take care with our behavior when a flame war is in the very early stages, as this one is, we can avoid getting to that point. It's kind of like the enviornment. Don't wait until it's too late to take good care of it.

When you guys were having fun slinging stuff at each other in the Bush threads, no harm was being done. You were in agreement about what you were there for. But the attacks have spread to other kinds of threads now, including welcome threads. That's the beginning of when things get out of control.

Perhaps you should check out some of the earlier flame war threads so you can see how these things evolve. I'm sure Spaw would be happy to supply you with a few links.

You seem like a level headed sort of person to me. I think you can probably understand why it's better for a lot of people if we don't get to the point where Max needs to step in.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Noreen
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:15 PM

Carol, I applaud what you are trying to do, but I don't think flamers can be stopped by telling them off in a thread. Someone with that turn of mind is more likely to take it as an encouragement (as happened with the starting of the Pol Pot two thread) as he/she seems to be craving attention. Ignoring the undesired behaviour in many cases leads to the extinction of that behaviour, and it this situation it's perfectly safe to ignore it. That's what I'm doing. (..until now... :0] )

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:46 PM

Noreen, I respect your approach. I think it's a good approach to take with flamers, particularly anonymous ones. I'm actually not adressing anonymous flamers in most of the posts I've been making lately.

I'm addressing Mudcat members whom I ordinarily respect and think of as friends. I'm asking them not to participate in, encourage, or escalate a flame war. I think sometimes we forget how the old flame wars happened. Sometimes there are anonymous flamers involved, but most of the flaming is done by those whom we normally think of as people we know and respect.

What I don't understand is why these people would have a problem with me asking them not to participate in, encourage, or escalate a flame war. Many friendships have been ruined by flame wars.

Ignoring the undesired behaviour in many cases leads to the extinction of that behaviour

I ignored the behavior last night when I went to bed. (Just as several people asked me to.) I woke up to two new threads dealing with Pol Pot, and during the course of the day while I was trying to ignore it, some more have appeared. So I don't think ignoring it was working.

So I am asking, once again, for people to try to be mindful of the long term consequences of their actions in this forum. I think that the Mudcat, and we, will benefit from it.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Mar 01 - 11:56 PM

They generally take awhile to run their course Carol, but do you realize that you are the main thing prolonging this one at the moment? No flaming going on elsewhere....The Bushwhacked Players are happy.....You keep coming back again and again here and on the other pp thread and its to you people are responding and prolonging this thing.

Let it go.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 12:07 AM

I'm sorry Spaw. I don't agree. See my post above. While I was ignoring this thing, new threads were proliferating. Things have slowed down a lot since I started posting again.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 12:14 AM

Things have slowed down a lot since I started posting again.

...and maybe that's because I've become the target now. So if I have to take a few shots to stop another flame war, I guess that's what I'm going to do.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 12:49 AM

I just want to say one more thing all by myself here at the bottom of this thread.

Seeing this kind of stuff in the Mudcat really breaks my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:33 AM

Carol, you are making a mountain out of a molehill. If you keep beating this dead horse, someone IS going to really get started and then you may see a real flame war. Last August was still mild compared to the ones I sent you links to; I hope you gave even one of those a thorough read.

Ignoring them will only work for you if you truly do ignore them. Obviously you are having a problem doing this and so it gets perpetuated.

Max is a big boy and can speak for himself, so why don't you let it go and let it die, as it will?

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:40 AM

Very good advice.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:59 AM

Sorry kat/katlaughing, you're the one who's perpetuating it now. And I don't agree with you.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 04:02 AM

LOL....that is quite a joke...and here I go, again!

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Midchuck
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 07:47 AM

Carol and Kat: Why don't you flip a coin? Winner gets to make the last post. Then this thread can be allowed to die.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Skeptic
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 09:12 PM

I vote we let Spaw make the last post.

Regards

John

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Amergin
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 10:57 PM

or i could....

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 02:44 PM

I have read some crap in my time, but this thread takes the cake. Just by its existence you feed the monster. Carol, you are a wonderful member of this community and I understand your heartache, but the simple psychological fact is that response is what these people crave. The really devoted ones know that if you ignore the first one, then they will start a second or third, because they eventually will get someone to react. And that is what they crave. I used to berate people to ignore, and starve these assholes. But there is always some good hearted person that just has to complain. So I have just taken to ignoring because I know that eventually it will go away. I saw the name Pol Pot, ignored the thread and moved on. Until I scanned this one, I had no idea who or what MAV was. Now I figure I will just ignore this person.

In short, be dismayed if you want, boycott if you must, ....... but in the end you end up hurting this place more that helping. Have you ever noticed that the really great Mudcatters never leave, and that there are more each year. But the jerks are always a temporary thing. Some have a little more staying power, but eventually they always leave. Remember Gargoyle?

All the best,

Big Mick, who is exhausted from 9 straight days of multiple gigs daily.

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 03:10 PM

Big Mick,

Since you weren't reading this stuff as it was unfolding, I can understand how you would be confused about what happened.

All I can say is that we had a situation that was moving rapidly toward a flame war. I did what I felt I needed to do as a responsible member of this community. Call it conscious activism if you want. I can't prove that my efforts had any bearing on the result. All I know is, the flame war (albeit still in its infancy) ended.

If something like that ever happens again (and I have no doubt that it will), I will do just the same as I did in this case. I will make a pain in the ass of myself until people get tired of me and they go do something constructive.

I'm sure an activist like yourself wouldn't want me to do any less.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: Big Mick
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 03:57 PM

Carol, I really do understand your feelings. I believe in activism, in fact have made a life of it. With all due respect, flamers don't leave because of someone being upset with them. They leave when they are bored because no one reacts to them. Having said that, if this is the path you feel you must follow then follow it you must. I may think it misguided, but that is simply my opinion. And I will continue to look forward to your posts.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 04:10 PM

Thank you Big Mick. I can see that we will have to agree to disagree about how to handle these situations. As long as what I do appears to get good results, I will continue to do it. But I understand that you may not agree with it.

Best wishes,

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: my boycott till p.p. post goes away
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 09:53 PM

Using the facility we've got in this ingenious place for Personal Messages is maybe a better way to advise each other to cool it, rather than posting on open threads. And I know I've just posted that on an open thread, but it's general point that bears repetition.