Origins: Scarborough Fair

Subject: Scarborough fair
From:
Date: 13 Feb 97 - 04:06 PM

Can anyone help me find the origin of the lyrics and of the song (both versions :S& G and EMacColl ?

Thank you

Subject: Lyr Add: SCARBOROUGH FAIR
From: Anne Cormack
Date: 13 Feb 97 - 11:01 PM

SCARBOROUGH FAIR

CHORUS: Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
Remember me to one who lives there,
Remember me to one who lives there,
For once she was a true love of mine.

1. Tell her to make me a cambric shirt,
Without any seam or needlework,
Without any seam or needlework,
And then she'll be a true love of mine.

2. Tell her to wash it in yonder dry well,
Where water ne'er sprung, nor drop of rain fell,
Where water ne'er sprung, nor drop of rain fell,
And then she'll be a true love of mine.

3. Tell her to dry it on yonder thorn,
Which never blew blossom since Adam was born,
Which never blew blossom since Adam was born,
And then she'll be a true love of mine.

4. Tell her to find me an acre of land,
Between the salt water and the sea strand,
Between the salt water and the sea strand,
And then she'll be a true love of mine.

5. Tell her to plough it with a lamb's horn,
And sow it all over with one peppercorn,
And sow it all over with one peppercorn,
And then she'll be a true love of mine.

6. Tell her to reap it with a sickle of leather,
And bind it all up with one peacock's feather,
And bind it all up with one peacock's feather,
And then she'll be a true love of mine.

7. Tell her to tie it all up in a sack,
And carry it home on a butterfly's back,
And carry it home on a butterfly's back,
And then she'll be a true love of mine.

All of these verses except the last one are the version collected from William Moat of Whitby and published in Lucy Broadwood's "English County Songs". I can't remember where I picked up the last verse!

Anne

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 15-Nov-02.

Subject: RE: Scarborough fair
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 14 Feb 97 - 07:52 AM

I remember yet another verse:

Thresh the wheat with an old shoe sole
(parsley sage rosemary and thyme)
And store it all in a little mouse hole
(then she'll be a true love of mine)

Subject: RE: Scarborough fair
From: Susan of DT
Date: 14 Feb 97 - 07:21 PM

There are five versions of Child #2 in the DT, two of which have the title Scarborough Fair. I looked under "Scarbo*" and after finding one of the Scarborough Fairs, noted that it was Child #2, so I then searched for "#2"

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Messages from multiple threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Scarborough Faire
From:
Date: 16 Nov 98 - 02:44 PM

I am looking for an E-minor harmony to this song for a performance in early December. I am not an especially musical person, can't write one myself, but if anyone could help it would be appreciated. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Scarborough Faire
From: Benjamin Bodhra/nai/
Date: 17 Nov 98 - 02:20 AM

Try working on the third of the scale. E minor is actually the same as the G scale but starts at E instead of G. This means you can start a harmony on the G note at the same time as you start your melody on E. From there you just play around a bit, or at least thats what we always find. I know that's not very helpful, but sometimes having the starting note of a harmony makes the rest seem natural.

BB

Subject: RE: Scarborough Faire
From: alison
Date: 17 Nov 98 - 05:59 PM

Hi,

5ths and 6ths above the note usually work well too, then you just add a few notes in between to connect them a bit better.... so there aren't so many jumps.

don't use too many 5ths in a row though... can make it sound very Chinese.

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair
From: Bruce O.
Date: 17 Nov 98 - 06:25 PM

"Scarborough Fair" with tune in E minor, and (editors) accompaniment, is in Broadwood and Fuller Maitland's 'English County Songs', p. 12, 1892 and reprints.

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Messages from multiple threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Louis Lee
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 02:29 AM

Dear Sirs, I know that SCARBOROUGH FAIR is a very old English folksong dates back to late medieval times.However, the earliest recordings now can be found are the versions of Simon & Garfunkel and Martin Carthy.Do you know whether any earlier versions of this classic available (incl. 78's) in grammophone history?If so Could you give me some ideas how can I buy them?

I'll be glad to receive your feedback.

Yours faithfully,

Louis Lee [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair
From: cetmst
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 07:15 AM

Child Ballad # 2, 'The Elfin Knight', also known as 'The Cambric Shirt'. Some recordings: Ewan MacColl and A.L.Lloyd, English and Scottish Popular Ballads, v.4, Riverside RLP 12-627 Milt Okun and Ellen Stekert, Traditional American Love Songs, Riverside RLP 12-634 Jean Ritchie and Oscar Brand, Riddle Me This. Riverside RLP 12-646 Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, Matching Songs of the British Isles and America, Riverside RLP 12-637 Henry Belafonte, Belafonte By Request, RCA Victor LSP 4307 Grace Creswell, Tragic Ballads, Rebel 411 Cathy Barton and Dave Para, Ballad of the Boonslick King's Singers, Folk songs of the British Isles, EMI Classic CDC 7 54902 2 8 Try Smithsonian Folkways/Dyer-Bennet Records Catalogue Did I read that Riverside Records were being reissued ?

Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 07:31 PM

Search for ZC2| in the broadside index on my website and you find ref. to the earliest know version (c 1660). 1st "Scarborough Fair" version is in Kidson's Traditional Tunes, 1891. See also "Acre of Land" thread, down a little from this for otherr versions.

Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 10:55 PM

See 'Acre of land' thread for earliest Scarborough Fair version

Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair
From: Homeless
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 07:13 AM

Scarborough Fair in the Acre of Land thread.

Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair
From: richlmo
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 11:15 PM

Just read a joke in Reader's Digest about a mother and her daughter listening to Simon and Garfunkel in the car. After a moment her daughter said, " Well, did she? " The mother replied, " Did she what? " ' Did Parsley save Rosemary in time? "

I really love the song.

Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair
From: Ringer
Date: 21 Mar 01 - 06:33 AM

Robin & Barry Dransfield also do a good job with this song on Rout of the Blues. I've always thought the S&G version is a bit twee.

Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 Mar 01 - 08:31 AM

The Dransfields was my favourite version too. I remember they wanted it adopted as Yorkshire's anthem, to save up from Ilkley Moor Baht At. Very commendable.

Les

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM

What does it mean 'a sickle of leather'?

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Jack Campin
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:45 AM

What the dictionary says. A leather sickle wouldn't work that good.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM

.......or is it a mishearing or corruption of some other word?

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:49 AM

Which is the whole point of the song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Mr Happy
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM

Which is the whole point of the song. ??

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: jacqui.c
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 09:56 AM

Putting forward impossible tasks for a former lover before agreeing to take them back.

Listen closely to all the WORDS and it will all be clear.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: curmudgeon
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM

All of the tasks set forth by both lovers are impossible without the aid of magic, thus the possibility that the herbal incantation my have been, at one time, a form of "protection" for the singer - Tom

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: theleveller
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:11 AM

I did once wonder if it was originally 'are you going to Scarborough, fair' as there is no fair in Scarborough these days. However, I found out that there was a big, well known annual market in Scarborough.... "Scarborough was granted a market charter in 1253 by King Henry III. The markets started on the 15th August and the event ran for 45 days. This meant merchants from all over Europe (and even further afield) travelled to trade in the town. This is probably the fair that the song is about, as the event was so large entertainers attended, giving the perfect opportunity for songs to be written."

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Susan of DT
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM

There are now 11 versions of Child #2 in the Digital Tradition. There are only 3 attached to the top of the thread. I'll see whether I can find Joe Offer's instructions on how to edit that...

Hmmm, that did not work, do here is a list:
ACRELAND An Acre of Land
SCARFR2 The Elfin Knight
ELFKNGT The Elfin Knight 2
SCARFR3 Elfin Knight 3
SCARFR4 Elfin Knight 4
SCARFR5 Elfin Knight 5
ELFKNGT2 The Laird o' Elfin
ELFKNGT3 Redio, Tedio
SCARFAIR Scarborough Fair
ELFKNGT4 Scarborough Fair 2
ELFKNGT5 Elfin Knight 12 (probably not yet on-line)

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Brian Peters
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 12:04 PM

Most of the collected versions of Child 2 don't mention Scarborough at all, having an alternative or unspecified location. The only ones with verses about 'Scarborough Fair' seem to be those collected in Yorkshire - i.e. near Scarborough.

As for "the whole point of the song", this becomes more and more obscure as you get away from the 'Elfin Knight' variants (which are those most closely resembling the oldest available source version), until by the time it evolves into 'Acre of Land' it's lost any sense of a dialogue and has become a nonsense song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:51 PM

really?

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 04:59 PM

I think it's best sung as a duet, where first the man then the lady plays very hard to get.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Tootler
Date: 08 Jul 09 - 06:58 PM

"Whittingham Fair" in the Northumbrian Minstrelsy is to all intents and purposes identical to the first version of SF in the DT. It even retains the "Parsley Sage..." refrain.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Tradsinger
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 03:54 AM

The origins of the Carthy/Simon & G version appear to be Ewan MaColl's book 'The Singing Island' in which the song is attributed to the singing of Mark Anderson, a retired lead miner from Yorkshire. Pitchpole Jack's version can be found here,

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:26 AM

Just stumbled across this thread, being a Scarborian an all, just to take up what leveller said about being no fair in Scarborough, there was, and in sofar as I am aware there still is, a fair in Scarborough. As keeper of the Scarborough Punch and Judy tradition I know, as the tradition was passed on to me through the family by the late Sid Owenson, that his grandfather arrived as a child in Scarborough in 1898 in a Bow Top caravan to make some money entertaining at the fair, they then had a marrionette theatre and travelled the fairs earning a living. His great gradfather decided to stay and started the Punch & Judy show on the beach that year. Sid said his grandfather remembered the bow top caravan although he was very young at the time. So the fair was there in 1898 and I would like to bet that it wasn't a victorian invention, who knows, thus it passed through four generations of father/son till it came to me, a brother in law. The tradition, for what it is worth, are the secrets, which alas now can be downloaded from the internet, and a gladston bag with the original Mr Punch from 1898. I have to say the puppet is very crude and would not pass muster in todays sophisticated audience and it is a tad smelly!
Peter

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: theleveller
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 04:42 AM

Interesting stuff, Stallion. Thanks for that. I didn't know that the fair was still in existence. Do you know whereabouts in Scarborough the fair was held? I'd also heard that it was also a hiring fair; do you know if that was the case?

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 01:28 PM

We had land ajoining Weaponess Valley coach park and for years, well since as far as I can go back it was there, I remember the flea circus, magic acts, and a plethora of "freak" side shows, like the bearded lady and the lamb with three heads and such stuff.   By my early teens it had become a fair with just rides and shooting galleries of one sort or another. It then moved to the William Street car park, probably late 60's early seventies, I remember taking one girlfriend in particular there in either '69 or '70 (you wags calm down, we're talking years here!) And according to my sister it is still there!

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: stallion
Date: 09 Jul 09 - 01:36 PM

As to a hiring fair, well it is not inconceivable, in the 18th century our family were farm labourers in Scalby north of Scarborough and in the 19th century were in Staxton east of Scarborough, before rail travel all the roads led to Scarborough and it also had a racecourse, my best guess is that it was probably a place for the hinterland to gather and do business so why not a hiring fair. This of course is conjecture not scholarship!

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Mick Woods
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 01:37 PM

What's Dylan's "Girl Fron The North Country". Is it just a rip off or did he ever acknowledge Scarborough fair as the inspiration?

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: stallion
Date: 10 Jul 09 - 03:12 PM

I think there is a thread somewhere that suggests that Dylan did acknowledge MC Whereas Paul Simon didn't, As far as I know MC doesn't comment on it.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Darowyn
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:22 AM

When I lived in Scarborough there were sometimes nostalgia articles in the paper about the hiring fair, which was still, thirty years ago, within living memory for some elderly townsfolk.
It was described as taking place on St Nicholas Cliff, where the Grand Hotel and the St Nicholas Hotel, with its Charles Laughton links, stand.
The funfair on the coach park marks the end of the holiday season, or it did when I was Community Tutor there.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: s&r
Date: 11 Jul 09 - 03:40 AM

Found this without too much trouble Stallion:

2000:] Martin [Carthy] appeared onstage with Paul Simon at the Hammersmith Apollo during the last week of October. The "Scarborough Fair Saga" was finally put to bed as the two of them performed it together. Here's a word or two from Martin about the experience.

"It was a great moment and the whole thing is about as satisfying as it could be. And all because of a phone call from Paul a week or so beforehand with, among other things, an invitation to his London gig, an invitation which turned out to be an invitation to sing. So I accepted. The feeling has been growing more and more in me that, at the very very least, it was time to let go. Putting it quite bluntly: even if I had cause to be aggrieved - which I was becoming less and less sure was ever really the case - I cannot be a victim all my life. In fact, in an interview ten years ago or so, Paul thanked publicly all the musicians and others he had known in England in the sixties, and this gave a shove to that train of thought in me. In interviews more recently I have found myself, when faced with the inevitable question, less and less willing to go through this "trudge through the grudge". What I had felt was, I think, more to do with injured pride than actually being cheated by the man. It has become apparent over the years that any such cheating was done by others in the course of or in the aftermath of lawsuits.

For a fair time now the music he makes has been telling me one important thing and finally I have taken notice. That this is a good man. Gracious too. His musicians love him and feel valued. They respond by being just about the best band they could possibly be. Simply hearing them play that night was to be given a masterclass. I was quite nervy at the thought of going out there and singing but Paul himself made it very easy. What else is there to say? Except that I left the Hammersmith Apollo a very happy man, with a weight off my mind and a real feeling of release. And all it took was to sing and talk with him at the end of the London leg of his tour. This is someone who values the life he has led - all of it - and detests the idea of bad blood. I'm thankful to him for having the imagination and the grace to pick up the phone and set up what has made an end of this nonsense. It's over."

Stu

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Mick Woods
Date: 16 Jul 09 - 03:35 PM

This gives some insight into what a fine man Martin Carthy is.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: stallion
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 05:57 AM

Also that being unforgiving is a burden and that letting go of bitterness and anger leads to a more settled inner self.
And I agree, MC is a top notch person as well as a great performer

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: stallion
Date: 17 Jul 09 - 06:03 AM

ooops, I forgot to add, Scarborough council did have an arts and craft fair on St Nicholas cliff for at least a couple of years, as for the hiring fair, mmmmmmm, less likely, though I guess I am looking through 20century goggles!

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Oct 12 - 06:46 PM

Dos any body know any more about Sid owenson family tree reasons many thanks lee owenson Roberts son of John owenson Roberts   Grandson of Owen owenson Roberts

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: GUEST,Curious
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 02:07 AM

My question is, are the words public domain or are they still under someone's copyright? Just the words, particularly the "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme" version. Not the song, just the words.

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Sep 13 - 08:43 PM

I can't imagine anyone trying to claim any sort of copyright on a phrase several hundred years old. If they were part of another song with 'new' lyrics written AROUND the old....maybe

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: Airymouse
Date: 19 Sep 13 - 07:31 PM

Just to muddy(cat) the waters, there's a recorded version by the New York State fiddler, Larry Older, [I don't care what the scholars in Oxford believe, a "fiddler" is someone who plays the violin and calls it a "fiddle"], which is much different from the syrupy tune you here in elevators. It begins:
Where are you going, I'm going to the fair
Flim limb a lea casa lo ma lea
If you see my love tell him I'll be there
To ma tassa a low, fa lass a low
Flim limb a lea casa low ma lea.

It's track A5 on "Adirondack Songs, Ballads and Fiddle Tunes."

Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Sep 13 - 12:55 AM

Doesn't 'muddy the waters' particularly, that there should be yet another version of Child #2, The Elfin Knight, aka The Cambric Shirt, aka (cont p 94), to add to all the dozens in Child & Bronson & Roud & (cont p 95)...

~M~