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Help: Terminology for endless loop songs
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Subject: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:11 PM We are the Flyndians, mighty mighty Flyndians, everywhere we goooo, people want to knooooooow, who we are, so we tell them we are the Flyndians, mighty mighty Flyndians... (school song from Flynn Park, St. Louis) John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith, that's my name too, whenever I go out, the people always shout, there goes John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith... You get the idea. What are these songs CALLED? It isn't Rounds, but it ought to be. What others can you think of? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: IanC Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:18 PM Don't know what they're called, but they include such classics as
Lloyd George Knew My Father Always short!
Cheers! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:21 PM This is the song that doesn't end Yes it goes on and on my friend Some people started singing not knowing what it was And they'll continue singing it forever, just because (repeat ad infinitum) Actually John Jacob Jingleheimer Schmidt doesn't loop necessarily; it's just sung that way. The song itself is a complete statement and doesn't bite its tail the way these others do. But I sure don't know what they're called. Besides obnoxious, of course. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Bert Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:21 PM This is a song that never ends..... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: MMario Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:31 PM circular? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:35 PM It's easy to write them too. To the tune of "I don't know but I've been told" (marching cadence):
Mudcat is the place to be
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Mrrzy Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:57 PM Yeah, after I typed it, I realized that JJJSmith didn't actually fit. Luckily y'all understood me anyway...! and I like the phrase "bite their tail" for these... but I'm sure there is an actual jargon term. If not we, as Keepers of the Flame of Songdom and Musicality, should invent one. Musicologists...? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 01:59 PM Well, isn't the picture of the snake biting its tail called "ouroboros"? Maybe we should call these songs Ouroborian songs. Or Ouroborias. (ourob-arias?) Just a thought. Has a nice ring, you must admit. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Jim Dixon Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:03 PM I remember one of the songs in "Songs of the Pogo" had the notation at the end "da capo ad infinitum" (or maybe it was "da capo ad nauseam"). |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Pseudolus Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:04 PM Annoying? Sorry, couldn't resist.... *BG* Frank |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: MMario Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:07 PM I like Ouroborias as a class name, Ouroborian as an adjective. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Allan C. Date: 22 Mar 01 - 02:24 PM I have had quite a few choice names for such songs as, "Song Sung Blue". But even in such an open-minded place as this, I would not consider putting them in print. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:32 PM Tail-biter: caudophage??? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: mousethief Date: 22 Mar 01 - 03:36 PM That would be tail-eater. Anybody who enjoys lobster, for example. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Liz the Squeak Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:38 PM They're usually described as circular, but we call 'em squirrels, because you can guarantee that once one has started it will go on in your brain like a squirrel or a hamster in a wheel... And which one of you buggers started up with JJJSchmidt? I only know one line of it, and it's been squirreling already for 20 mins!!! LTS |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Matt_R Date: 22 Mar 01 - 05:57 PM It's called TECHNO!!! She's into that that spiritus stuff! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Bill D Date: 22 Mar 01 - 09:59 PM to the approximate tune of "Buffalo Gals"
"As I was walking down the lane
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Grab Date: 23 Mar 01 - 08:36 AM Liz, there's a word in German for that - "earworm". And this site even has advice on earworm-killing! :-) Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:03 AM Sorry for JJJSmith, I was really thinking of My name is Jan Janssen, I live in Wisconsin, I work in the lumber mill there; when I walk down the street all the people I meet say What is your name? My name in Jan Janssen... I vote for Ourobarias as a noun, ouroborian as the adjective and Squirrel as the nickname, it's perfectly descriptive... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Jenny the T Date: 23 Mar 01 - 09:04 AM I always heard such things called "shaggy dogs," myself. You know--you look at a shaggy dog, you can't tell where it starts nor where it ends ... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: mousethief Date: 23 Mar 01 - 10:49 AM I had heard "shaggy dog" used for a really long story with a really lame punchline. Maybe it's a regional usage thing? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:18 AM The cow kicked Nellie in the belly on the farm The cow kicked Nellie in the belly on the farm The cow kicked Nellie in the belly on the farm The old farmer said it wouldn't do her no harm Next verse Same as the first A little bit louder and a little bit worse The cow kicked Nellie... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: mousethief Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:31 AM Great song, Fib, but not quite an ourobaria. You don't HAVE to sing it over and over again in order to keep the grammar and sentence structure working. It's just CUSTOMARY to sing it over and over again, like "I'm Henry VIII, I am" or "The horse walked around with its foot on the ground." Alex |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:35 AM don't be picky Alex! *G* If "Everywhere we go" (mentioned in the first post) is ourobarian then so's "The cow kicked Nellie"! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: LR Mole Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:37 AM Wasn't it here that someone was mentioning (To "Auld Lang Syne"),We're here because we're here because we're here because we're here...(etc.)? And Fib M. has conjured up "I'm 'enery the eighth, I am"...AAAAgh... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:37 AM (This is because we always ended "Everywhere we go" successfully. The third time round you sing "and if they can't hear us/they must be deaf!") |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:39 AM Is "x number of green bottles" ouroborian? You could go on for infinity there... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Mrrzy Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:41 AM I love Enry the Eigth, it was the best part of that movie Ghost. And about the Flyndian song, you do too have to sing it around the part about who we are, so we tell them is tuned in such a way that the answer is required. A true ourobaria, now that we've used that term three times, it's ours. A big Hurrah for mousethief! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 23 Mar 01 - 11:46 AM Our version was: (repeat each line as a response) Everywhere we go People always ask us Who we are And where do we come from And we always tell them We come from xxx Mighty mighty xxx And if they can't hear us We shout a little louder... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Chip2447 Date: 24 Mar 01 - 01:38 AM Gee thanks folks, now the squirel tape loops are gonna torture me ad infinitum, ad nauseum... "Oh, the grand ole Duke of York, He had ten thousand men......" ACK!!! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Mr Red Date: 24 Mar 01 - 04:43 PM Mr Red is jumpin with Joy. AND this is Joy's contribution. My name is leonardo I am a retardo, I live on 440th street, beep beep. I look at the people, and they look at me, and say -"who are you" and I say - My name is leonardo I am a retardo, I live on 440th street, beep beep. continue ad nauseum. Are these endless songs or songs without a beginning? circular songs? recursive songs? re-entrant songs? Perpetuam mobile? sing-arounds? roundabouts? merrygorounds? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Suffet Date: 13 Aug 06 - 10:16 AM Greetings: I just recently learned this one: Infinity bottles of beer on the wall, Infinity bottles of beer; If one of those bottles should happen to fall, Infinity bottles of beer on the wall. Or, for those mathematicians among us... Alef null bottles of beer on the wall, Alef null bottles of beer; If one of those bottles should happen to fall, Alef null bottles of beer on the wall. Alef null (the Hebrew letter alef followed by zero as a subscript) represents the number of elements in the set of rational numbers. It is an infinite number, but smaller than other infinite numbers, alef one and alef two. Please don't ask me to explain. I'm accepting this on faith alone. Alef null is also the number of elements in the set of non-negative integers, meaning the set {0, 1, 2, 3, 4, ...}. That is the set that we normally use in reckoning bottles of beer. When in doubt, sing the first version. --- Steve |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Bert Date: 13 Aug 06 - 11:35 AM And what's that bloody song Seamus Kennedy sings? This is a song that gets on everybody's nerves or something. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Slag Date: 13 Aug 06 - 01:13 PM We are annoyed with ourbarretic songs yet we preceive our universe as finitely curved but infinite. We live on a globe where one can travel infinitely in one direction (if some immortal were infinitely so inclined). We use the endless band of gold to represent our endless love for our current spouses. Everyehere we look we see Hoop Snakes holding their tails in their mouths, endlessly rolling down some road to Rome. What's is not to like? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Abby Sale Date: 13 Aug 06 - 02:09 PM Steve, that's both old and old. As a kid, kids considered it cheap. But it's not circular, it's diminishing. There's also cumulative (counting) and infinate. Still. I've been collecting what I call Circular songs for some years. They're interesting to me because there's also a religious element to them. They often depict the circle of life as opposed to the cycle of life. That is (eg) reincarnation as opposed to the cycle of birth, etc, etc, death over generations. In Judaism, a hierarchical element is more common - starting at the lowest and working upwards towards God (of course) as in Chadgadyo. The well-suggested term, ourobarian is just Circular, of course but derives from "tail-eating." That is, the Greek for Milkey Way as a dragon in a circle eating its tail. A nice circle! I got the notion on being in UK and first hearing "The Tree in the Hole" in it's English form, actually called "The Everlasting Circle." The difference being that the US dropped the slightly sexy verses that complete the Circle. It's clearly a pagan folk/religious concept. I don't mean a hymn or anything, just a folk song in tune with accepted precepts but contrary to my own Jewish ones. Here's a few others I thought of and the 1993 r.m.f and later Ballad-L discussions added: (some are more short dialogues/recitations than songs) Where have all the flowers gone? Hole in the Bucket and Les Barker's parody, I Have a Bodhran Found a Peanut The Bear Went Over the Mountain Jonathan (Antonio/Wally), tell us a story May name iss Yon Yonsen Why is the Fourth of July On Ilkley Moor Baht Hat (Seems Joe Hickerson wrote the last two verses that close the circle.) Michael Finnigan Around the corner, And under the tree John Jacob Jingleheimer Smith You remind me of a man (a fav of mine - Not trad of course, Cary Grant in the movie "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer" to teen aged Shirley Temple (her older sister was Myrna Loy?), That's life! / What's life? How Fights Start in Saloons, by Rudy Valle - "'E was the greatest man that England ever knew" |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Azizi Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:52 PM Somewhat off topic: Fibula Mattock posted a version of "Everywhere We Go" on 23 Mar 01 - 11:46 AM Here's a slightly different version that I've heard chanted by a groups of African American children from a Pittsburgh, PA area social service agency. The children were marching in the annual Pittsburgh Black Heritage Parade, 2004 {repeat each line as a response) Everywhere we go-o. People wanna know-o. Who we are-ar. So we tell them. We are the ____ * Mighty Mighty _____ * -snip- * insert your group's name here |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Peace Date: 13 Aug 06 - 04:57 PM That last lyric you quote was in the movie, "Remember the Titans". 'The film takes place in Alexandria, Virginia in 1971, at a recently desegregated high school known as T.C. Williams. Herman Boone (Denzel Washington) is hired as Assistant Head coach for the school's football team, working under Head Coach Bill Yoast (Will Patton). In a move by the School Board, Boone becomes Head Coach and Yoast chooses not to become Assistant Head Coach, when offered by Boone, but changes his mind later on. The African-American and Caucasian members of the football team clash in racially-motivated conflicts on a few occasions throughout their time at football camp. But after forceful coaxing and team building efforts executed by Coach Boone, eventually the team manages to achieve some form of unity, as well as success. The main conflict is taken to a personal level by the portrayal of the conflict between Gerry Bertier (Ryan Hurst) and Julius Campbell (Wood Harris), two players of equally outstanding athletic ability who at first can't stand one another but eventually become sworn brothers (the turning point of their relationship becomes a focal point for the team in its racially divided ways giving way to true unity). Upon return to school the runs through its regular season competition undefeated while battling the prejudicial influence of the rest of 1970's Virginia. Eventually, Bertier is involved in an automobile accident while celebrating one of the team's victories. While Bertier is unable to play in the final game due to his injuries (including paralysis), the team goes on to win the championship, and sets an example for the town. The team's excellence in its unity despite racial differences ultimately unites the city of Alexandria to find common ground with one another.' It may not be the greatest movie of all time, but it ranks in the top ten for this kid. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Suffet Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:56 PM Steve, that's both old and old. As a kid, kids considered it cheap. But it's not circular, it's diminishing. Abby, please look again: Infinity bottles of beer on the wall... or Alef null bottles of beer on the wall... Ask a mathematics student. Alef null less one equals alef null. --- Stve |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: GUEST,Rowan Date: 13 Aug 06 - 06:59 PM Abby, you may already have this but in case you don't; A doggie stole a sausage coz he wa underfed, the cook he saw him steal it and now the poor doggy's dead And all the little doggies were very sad that night, they made a little tombstone and on it they did write "A doggy stole a sausage .... Cheers, Rowan I can remember learning this in the late '40s |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Slag Date: 13 Aug 06 - 07:55 PM And then their was David Bowie's little ditty in the movie "Labyrinth" and I believe it went "You remind me of the babe, 'what babe?' the babe with the power. 'what power?' the power of voodoo, 'who do?' You do remind me of the babe, etc." In Fortran it's called a double-nested "do" loop. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Vixen Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:18 AM Heard at FSGW Getaway 2003, and still squirrelling... "I know a song that annoys everybody and this is how it goes...." I think that not only must the words grammatically link the tail to the head, but the music is somehow "canonical" or "irresolute" or something, because when these songs are really effective at being ouroborian (ah neology and the livin' tongue!) there is no place in the tune to logical resolve it. I don't *know* but I suspect that they "end" (insofar as you can say they "end"!) on a leading tone that pressures the singer and auditor to keep going. Just another $0.02 fwiw. V |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Vixen Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:20 AM I mean "logically" resolve it! V |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: sciencegeek Date: 14 Aug 06 - 01:26 PM oh many thanks for the reference to Fortran... lol.... I feel like such a dinosaur when I refer to a "do loop" and the youngsters look at me like I just sprouted a new head.... at which point I just have to go on about how the term "bug" came into computer jargon |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Abby Sale Date: 15 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM Steve - point took Rowan - thanx. Hadn't had that'n Slag - glad to learn this has entered (some) tradition (or other.) That will be taken from "The Bachelor and the Bobby Soxer" I assume. Never game across any prior source. 'The power of hoodoo' in the movie. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Mr Red Date: 15 Aug 06 - 01:14 PM the word you seek is recursive - though re-entrant is almost as good. they could be called re-iterative just as easily. Or even iterative. strictly speaking re-entrant requires that the entry has an exit but another entry comes in before the exit. but then that entry must have an exit. All the returns have a return point on a memory called a stack. The songs, as described, don't do this - they have no exit or an ever deepening stack of returns. Which if left unchecked fill and overspill - which is how viruses sometimes find your e-mail or bank account numbers. spot the engineer/programmer (who cut his programming teeth on FORTRAN - note correct use of capitals) double nested? - hmmmmmmmmm don't quite see that. DB looks more like associative contatenation then a GOTO some start location - but I am just pedanting. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Slag Date: 16 Aug 06 - 01:46 AM ANDs, NANDs, Gates, J-K Flip Flops yes and all CAPS for FORTRAN, SPSS, COBOL, real BASIC. I know I'm missing a bunch. Didn't keep my stick in it beyond college. The original Star Trek (How many Klingons do you want?). Punch Tape and card readers. What fun! You'd have a two foot high project program on IBM cards and OOPS! Phone cradle modems 600 to 900 baud rate. FORTRAN was a pleasure to program in. As I remember the double nested do-loop (error) would run between two sub-routines. The completion of one set of intructions would throw it over to the second set then back. Abby Sale! Yes, I remember kids in grade school would recite the VooDoo HooDoo thing but I didn't know it's origin. I knew it wasn't original when I saw Bowie's version. It was years later that I saw the Bachelor and the Bobby-Soxer ( Cary Grant and somebody) and heard the original ( I assume???) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 16 Aug 06 - 11:11 PM Recursion In mathematics and computer science, recursion specifies (or constructs) a class of objects or methods (or an object from a certain class) by defining a few very simple base cases or methods (often just one), and then defining rules to break down complex cases into simpler cases. For example, the following is a recursive definition of person's ancestors: One's parents are one's ancestors (base case); The parents of any ancestor are also ancestors of the person under consideration (recursion step). It is convenient to think that a recursive definition defines objects in terms of "previously defined" objects of the class to define. Reentrant A computer program or routine is described as reentrant if it can be safely called recursively or from multiple processes. To be reentrant, a function must hold no static data, must not return a pointer to static data, must work only on the data provided to it by the caller, and must not call non-reentrant functions. Despite a common misconception, this is not the same as being designed in such a way that a single copy of the program's instructions in memory can be shared. The kernel code or the code implementing synchronization like semaphore is generally not reentrant because it handles the shared memory (i.e., the 'environment,' of which there is normally only one instance). Note that multiple levels of 'user/object/process priority' and/or multiprocessing greatly complicate the control of reentrant code. Iteration This article discusses a technique which is used in mathematics and in computer programming. For use in the Japanese and Chinese languages see iteration mark. The word iteration is also used in the context of Project Management, particularly software development. The word iteration is sometimes used in everyday English with a meaning virtually identical to repetition. Mathematics Iteration in mathematics may refer to the process of iterating a function, or to the techniques used in iterative methods for solving numerical problems. Computing Iteration in computing is the repetition of a process within a computer program. It can be used both as a general term, synonymous with repetition, and to describe a specific form of repetition with a mutable state. When used in the first sense, recursion is an example of iteration, but typically using a recursive notation, which is typically not the case for iteration. However, when used in the second (more restricted) sense, iteration describes the style of programming used in imperative programming languages. This contrasts with recursion, which has a more declarative approach. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: CapriUni Date: 19 Apr 09 - 03:39 PM "The song that never ends" got lodged in my brain one night, just as I was about to toddle off to bed (pity me!), and I started to muse and wonder about composing a coda for it -- you know, to wrap it up quickly before the mob rushes in for the kill, so you can make your escape. So I've been looking for a midi file of it online, so that I could download it into my Noteworthy Composer, and experiment. But I can't find it anywhere. I can find the lyrics in a bunch of places, references to it in even more places, and one place that gives the guitar chords for those who play guitar. But I can't find the dots. A little help, please? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Tootler Date: 19 Apr 09 - 06:35 PM Dargason is an excellent example of a tune that goes round and round and never resolves. Here is an ABC X: 1 T:Dargason M:6/8 L:1/8 K:Cmix A2 F F2 F|A2 B c>BA|B2 G G2 G|B2 c d>cB|A2 F F2 F|f2 f e>dc|B2 G G2 G|g2 f e>dc:| |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: GUEST,Gerry Date: 19 Apr 09 - 08:20 PM I'm reminded of Art Thieme's discussion of the appropriate kind of saw to play for various different types of music - for Irish dances, a jigsaw, etc. I think his recommendation for rounds was a circular saw, but I suppose that would be the right instrument for the songs in this thread as well. Abby Sale mentioned the That's life! / What's life? dialogue. I'm trying to remember how that goes. Something like, That's life! What's life? Life's a magazine. What's it cost? Fifty cents. I only have a quarter. That's life! etc. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: pavane Date: 20 Apr 09 - 05:38 AM Update on Foolestroupe 1. It has been proved mathematically that any recursive specification can be recast as an iteration. 2. A Recursive specification is easier to prove correct than an iteration. I do not know of any 'recursive' songs, only iterative ones! There are tunes which can be specified recursively. An example would be one with parts A B and C, where parts can further be subdivided into, e.g. Aa, Ab and Ac, which can in turn be subdivided. abc notation does handle such 'part specifications', and HARMONY in fact uses recursive code to process the parts. In general, any structure which can be presented as a strictly hierarchic tree is suitable for recursive processing. Didn't the TV program The Magic Roundabout have a theme tune which went round forever? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Terminology for endless loop songs From: Jack Campin Date: 20 Apr 09 - 07:30 AM I've never heard "Dargason" played in a folk context - Holst used it as a ground in his "St Paul's Suite" for strings, and I think that's the only way I've heard it. Is there a specific dance that goes with it? Thanks to Tootler it's been going round and round in my head for several hours now, and even a dose of Ellington followed by an hour of Indian classical singing hasn't shifted it. |
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