Halloween Origins

Subject: Halloween Origins
From: judy
Date: 07 Nov 97 - 03:31 PM

Oh, well better late than never.
This is actually a response to a message in the French songs thread

According to Eric A. Kimmel in the Oct 1980 issue of Cricket magazine (I've tried to shorten it a bit):

The Celtic New Year began on November 1st, marking the end of autumn and the beginning of winter; the time of the Samhain festival. The Celts believed that Samhain, the God of the Underworld, permitted the souls of the dead to return to their homes. So on Samhain Eve, Oct 31st, all the hearth fires were put out. The Druids, the Celtic priests, kindled huge bonfires on the hilltops to help the wandering spirits find their way home. Live sacrifices were made in these flames, and the Celts lit torches from the sacred bonfires to carry home to make new fires in their hearths to herald the new year. The word "bonfire" itself comes from "bone-fire" because the bones of the sacrifices remained in the ashes.

It was the custom for people to dress up in animal skins. In Ireland a parade was held in honor of Muck Olla, god of fertility and plenty. The leader of the parade wore a white robe and a mask made from a deer's head and antlers. Those following behind begged food from the people and houses they passed --an early form of trick or treat.

When the Romans conquered the Celts and moved to Gaul (now France) in the first century AD they brought with them Feralia, an occasion of great feasting in honor of the dead. Special ceremonies were held in honor of Pomona, the patron goddess of fruit bearing trees ....merging with Samhain and thus we go to parties, eat nuts and sweets and bob for apples.

Centuries later when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire all pagan rituals were banned. The Church changed the old holidays into Christian celebrations. In 800AD All Saint's Day(Nov 1) and All Soul's Day (Nov 2) were created to take the place of Feralia which had taken the place of Samhain. All Saints Day or All Hallows(Holy) Day was created to honor any saints who didn't have their own particular day. All Soul's Day honors the dead. The actual celebration of these two holidays began on the night of Oct 31st, the evening of All Hallows Day, which was called All Hallows Even or Hallow E'en, now known as Halloween.

Jack o' the Lantern Tale:
Jack did one evil deed after another. Since he didn't believe in Heaven or Hell, neither would have him after he died so he was condemned to walk the earth forever. Thus, his ghost wanders the roads at night, holding a lantern to light his path. In Ireland they made lanterns of hollowed out gourds or turnips cutting a few holes in its side and sticking a candle stub in. Sometimes they cut a scary face. When the first Irish immigrants came to America, they found that the native pumpkin made a capital "Jack-o-Lantern".

The Irish also brought the custom of trick or treat to America. In Ireland, Halloween was a good time for getting back at people you didn't like or for just plain making mischief. Bands of young men and women would roam around in the dark, playing tricks on their neighbors. The next day it would be "Oh, my, it must have been those wicked ghosts!". People soon realized that a good way to avoid trouble was to pay off the local bullies before Halloween. But soon these gangs were so bold that they came knocking at the door -masked, of course- demanding a bribe, or else: either be tricked or hand out a treat

From ghoulies and ghosties and long-legged beasties and things that go bump in the night, Good Lord, deliver us!!

judy

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Charles
Date: 10 Nov 97 - 12:27 PM

The message that prompted Judy to write this thread is here. Thanks for copying all this information out Judy, until now I hadn't seen much solid stuff about, let's say, the "northern route" (via Ireland) of Halloween.

I still have some problems with it. Bonfire isn't a Celtic word at all, it's a Germanic one. The Celtic traditions we know today have been kept in Ireland and some Western land's ends. The people who repopulated Britain, bringing with them the words bone and fire came from the Eastern shores of the North Sea (Northern Germany, Denmark, Norway) from about 300 AD. Celtic archeological remains in the continent date at least than 500 years before that and remain much further south and west. And at the time, Ireland had already become Christian, and probably had abandoned human sacrifices, although they may have kept a form of trick or treating.

So we haven't got two feasts on the same day - we've got three! A Celtic one, A Latin one that became Christian, and a Germanic one. They may have had common origins that would have to be even older. But older than celts, that's old. The only common feature I know of going that far back is the Indo-European family of languages... Anyone heard of something like Halloween in northern India?

Now about Halloween at home. In France the Toussaint and jour des morts are important religious feasts, it's one of the few days, along with Christmas and Easter, when people that usually don't bother turn up in Church. The 2nd of November is when they go and tend graves, bringing flowers (chrysanthèmes, what do you call them?). In Spain, it's even more of an event. When I was in Manchester a couple of years ago, I organised religious activities among Spanish and Latin-American students. Their respect for those feasts was tied up to traditions that are very romanised and christianised (although they probably do predate Christian times). It's the Southern route of importing Halloween into America, and brought nice little candy skulls to Mexico, with help from local folk.

So it looks like two separate traditions developed from feasts that took place on the same day. They are still very distinct: you don't give little candy skulls to the Children that ask trick or treat, or do you?

With all that, the new tradition that has come out of the American pot and is coming back into Europe is not more Celtic than it is Christian or Germanic. It's neither of those really, but since Celtic is what any self-respecting folk tradition ought to be at the moment, it might as well be :-)

Charles

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 10 Nov 97 - 03:46 PM

The English for chrysanthèmes is chrysanthemums (stress goes on the a). Sometimes shortened to "chrysanths" in Britain and the more pronounceable "mums" in the U. S.

I don't see that you have to look for an ancient common origin of Germanic and Celtic festivals. The Anglo-Saxons could have given a Germanic name to the fires their Celtic neighbors were building.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Charles
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 06:35 AM

But, the invaders came into a countries that had given up on human sacrifices. Even Ireland had already embraced christianity: when the Germanic invasion of Britain cut it off from the continent, it wrote the book of Kells and sent missions to Scotland.

Actually, there's some very good stuff on the origins of Halloween at http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/6696/hallows.htm. It's solidly researched and it debunks some scare literature about the festival.

Charles

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From:
Date: 11 Nov 97 - 07:17 PM

When I was a kid we were told that the hollowing-out of pumpkins had its origins in the Scots hollowing-out turnips. How that was done with any convenience was never explained to me (tried it once).

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: judy
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 02:04 AM

Foot in mouth. Yummy toes. I always learn more than I ever thought there was to know about the subject here. Great info. Thanks all

Charles,
We don't give out candy skulls here. Sounds like a Mexican/S.American tradition. I have seen them in the Mexican bakeries (here So. Calif) and on Olvera Street (the first street in LA, now kept as a historic site). Most of the people give out small candy bars, a few give out pennies, and my kids got a toothbrush from one person.At parties at school the kids get Halloween erasers, pencils, spider rings, plastic skeletons and homemade (or bought) cookies, cupcakes and assorted candy
judy

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: alison
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 07:07 AM

Hi

Turnips are pretty easy to hollow out. In Ireland we have decent sized turnips, (about the size of Aussie pumpkins, turnips over here are pretty tiny.) I, on the other hand, have absoultely no idea how you would carve out a pumpkin because they're so hard! Do you have to cook them a bit first?

Slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Charles
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 07:12 AM

What I find amusing about the two American traditions is how what had probably been one festival in Europe separated into two traditions with each its own influences.

The traditions are completely distinct - Mexican children don't go from door to door asking for candy, or if they do now it's a recent influence. And North American children dont have meals in the graveyard. But there's the same date, the importance of death (and ghoulies and ghosties and long-legged beasties and thing that go bump in the night). It's got to have been the same thing, er, when celts roamed western Europe about 2500 years ago.

In Europe that period of the year is when the weather pattern is changing - officially summer ends on the Sept. 21st (autumn equinox) and winter begins Dec. 21st (winter solstice). But ask anyone in the street, they'll tell you winter starts on Nov 1st.

Charles

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Jon W.
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 10:28 AM

Alison, Aussie pumpkins must be harder than American ones. The ones we use are easily carved with a regular kitchen knife. Actually, this part of Halloween observance is becoming more and more elaborate. Kits are now sold which contain special knives, thin saws, drills (plastic), and templates for cutting elaborate halloween scenes on pumpkins such as witches riding across the moon, black cats, haunted houses, etc.

I did see some suckers (lollipops) in the shape of skulls around our house this halloween. We didn't give them out though. We favor the small candy bars.

It's becoming less and less usual for the kids to dress up as goblins, ghosts, and witches. We usually see animals, the latest Disney cartoon characters, princesses, and that sort of thing now. Older kids go for movie characters - "Men in Black" was popular this Halloween.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 12 Nov 97 - 03:29 PM

Last year, some Mexican intellectuals were criticizing the adoption of U. S. Halloween customs in Mexico at the expense of the Day of the Dead traditions. I didn't hear anything about that this year (but I wasn't paying attention).

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: judy
Date: 13 Nov 97 - 12:54 PM

Kids around my way, at least the older ones, go for these grizzly and disgusting looking monsters and aliens with slimy and sharp teeth. Wouldn't like to bump into them in the night.

In sunny southern California fall doesn't seem to start for me until Halloween, when it is usually windy and a little chilly (unless we have a Santa Anna condition which is a warm wind from the desert)

My kids are still into carving the pumpkins themselves, dont' need my help anymore. We like to roast the seeds, (pepitas). I don't know if many other Americans like to do that.

judy

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: LaMarca
Date: 13 Nov 97 - 06:09 PM

My favorite kid costume this year was a girl about 9-11 years old who came to our door in a pink fuzzy bathrobe and slippers with her hair in old-fashioned roll curlers and cold cream on her face; ie, the mythical American housewife by night. Truly scary...

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From:
Date: 13 Nov 97 - 06:40 PM

??? Pumpkins be easy to carve. They're hollow. Getting the lid off and the eyes, nose and mouth out are the easy tasks. Reaching in and grabbing the slimy pumpkin gloop is the worst part. ( I can never resist throwing it someone, or hiding it in someone'es desk.)

Mind you, much of what is sold as pumpkins these days aren't real pumpkins, but gourds grown for the Halloween market. Couldn't make a pie out of them, as my mother always did on November 1. Those giant gourds make for interesting lawn jack-o-lanterns, in which a seven year old might be conveniently hidden, but alas not a single pie can be had out of such a mass of vegetable matter.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From:
Date: 14 Nov 97 - 09:28 AM

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: dani
Date: 14 Nov 97 - 09:30 AM

To me, scooping the gloop with both hands and eating the roasted seeds are the greatest pleasures of the holiday. Pleasure is multiplied by sharing the job with someone small enough to need a chair to see inside the pumpkin.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Bert
Date: 14 Nov 97 - 10:59 AM

To our family, Halloween is the start of the holiday season. It's when we start baking the cookies and candy; a process which continues for the remainder of the year.

This year our neighbors brought their pumpkins over for Theresa (Tree) to cook. So she will be baking pies for everyone.

We ALWAYS roast the seeds, some times they get a little overdone but they get eaten just the same.

Come along to our sing tonight. Tree is cooking chile.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Tilell
Date: 15 Nov 97 - 01:54 PM

MY! What an enormous list of two-cents everyone's put in! (Can't resist adding mine)

Turnips? I'll admit I'm confused, I mean, they aren't even hollow and I'd think you'd have a really hard time making them so. Maybe with a mellon baller or something. . . I'll have to try that.

To the best of my knowledge, the tradition of Samhain (Pronounced alternately sow-een, su-en, sown, or sam-hane by some north americans) Is the Celtic new year, and there are some referrences I've found to a God of the Underworld, never been able to determine if they in fact used the word for his name, seen varying reports. I have also never yet found any reliable information substantiating the claim that the priests of the ancient Celts actually burned anything alive. DOn't know, heck they might have, I'm not saying my ancestors were any less strange than other peoples. BUT, I've not found anything I could label as proof. I have to go with my wife's opinion, she's the celtic archaeologist of the group, I'm just an actor. :)

As for the skull and death thing, yes that is Mexican, (and to some small extent Guatamalan) but mostly it comes from the Mexican "El Dia de los Muertos." (Which is sort of a misnomer, as there are actually two days, but Los Dias De Los Muertos doesn't roll off the tongue as well) The days coincide with the Catholic All Souls Day and All Saints Day on november 1st and 2nd, during which the people of mezo-america believe that the spirits of the dead can return to their homes and enjoy the pleasures of earthly life. The peoples of the region put out candles to light the path, and a combination of Marigold flower and Incense which have a distinctly powdered bone smell when mixed lead the way from the grave to the house altar. On the altar are usually placed fruits, incense, pan del muerte (bread of the dead)and all the foods and things loved oned enjoyed while they were alive. In an interesting side note, the families eat the food after the celebrations because it is a part of the ritual to realize that the dead can only enjoy the spiritual aspect of the food, not the material.

Skulls and crosses abound during the day, and there are many parades and performances about death and dying.

Side note: The cross existed in Mexico long before the Spanish brought Christianity with them, the Mayas had been using the cross for centuries as a symbol of the four elements (one at each point of the cross) and the soul or spirit at the center.

There, TIlell's little history lecture for the day. :)

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: judy
Date: 17 Nov 97 - 12:47 AM

Boy, it's almost Thanksgiving but I can see that we sure love Halloween. Thanks all for jumping in
Y'all go see the "Don't forget Thanksgiving" thread. It's lonely over there.

judy

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 01:52 PM

More re pumpkins:

I dunno what Aussie or Brit pumpkins are like, but the ones us Yanks use are fairly hard-shelled but filled mostly with soft pulp and seeds. You cut a circle several inches out from the stem, remove it like a lid, and then scoop out the soft innards. Once you've scraped it down to the hard surface, so it won't spoil quickly, you cut features into it--usually all the way through, but sometimes leaving a thin membrane for half-tones. On Halloween night, you light a candle inside so the light shows through the features.

A lot of people wash the seeds clear of pulp and roast them, usually with salt. In my family, however, we just used them as toys: they represented fish (because of the shape) or bread (because of the color) for Barbies to cook/gather/trade/store for winter. Like most seeds, they don't spoil unless you cook 'em or let 'em get wet.

--Nonie

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 01:59 PM

Meanwhile, as others have said, beware of ANY explanation that cheerfully tells you what the Druids or pre-Roman Britains did. WE DON'T KNOW.

We have some slanted reportage from the Romans, who had good political reason to demonize their opponents as practicing ritual sacrifice et al. And we have stories written down during the Christian era, and odd ceremonies performed during the Christian era, that we THINK contain hints of the previous culture. And we have archaeological artifacts that we THINK we can guess the purpose of.

But we don't have direct proof of almost any of it. So if someone says "The Druids did so-and-so", or "The Goddess Rhiannon was such-and-such," ask 'em for documented proof that dates back to the relevant era, and don't accept references to other modern mythologists as meaningful.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: judy
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 05:13 PM

Nonie: The info on how to keep the pumkin from spoiling is great! We never buy ours until a few days before because I can't stand to see the disgusting fuzziness emanating from the eyes. Truly scary!
Good advice for MYTHology. Human frailty to accept not knowing
judy

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Jon W.
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 07:10 PM

And don't keep the pumpkins inside (unless it's colder there than outside or you've got more room in your fridge than I ever do). Also, they are pretty fungus proof before carving (assuming no accidental holes) so don't carve them until at most a few days before Halloween.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From:
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 02:08 PM

The Halloween belief goes back a lot further then most people will want to know, since it is before Genesis. It is use at the end of a full moon, when the leaves have fallen from the trees, when the crops are in, before winter sets in. The wearing of animals skins and head dress was to blend in with a herd, for a easy hunt. Deer hunting occurs in the fall when the deer are engage in mating. Deer can be rather mean if they see a rival or enemy (man).
This practice has been used for 10 of eons. It is practice in all cultures across the planet.
When man brought in religion to explain the actions of other cultures did the real meaning lose out. Only man can see spirits in the hot wind on a summer day.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 02:14 PM

mmmmmmmmmmm "spirits in the hot wind on a summer day ".........

So evocative....

Mint juleps on the lawn, margharitas by the swimming pool ....

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: masato sakurai
Date: 25 Sep 03 - 08:23 PM

CHAMBERS'S BOOK of DAYS, Vol. 2, 1879, pp. 519-522.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 01:03 AM

I reccomend reading "Witches on Halloween" in Katherine Briggs' "British Folktales" about an English farm family dealing with witches on October 31.
I miss dressing up as a witch and meeting the kids at the door, "How nice, children. I like children. They make such nice little toads! There's my witch cat! Do you know what my witch cat eats? Toads!"
(Not of course said to small and frightened children, only to those old enough to know they wouldn't be toadified.)

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 03:15 AM

judy -
The actual celebration of these two holidays began on the night of Oct 31st, the evening of All Hallows Day, which was called All Hallows Even or Hallow E'en, now known as Halloween.
The beginning of celebrations now on the evening of the day before took place originally at the beginning of the day. The days began at the evening before. In the Orient it is still so; in Cairo you can buy evening papers with a date which we would consider as the date of the next day.
A trace of this usage you may find in Genesis I, 1 where every report of the creation on a certain day ends with: "It was evening, and it was morning: day one" (and so on).
The day began when the sun had set and it was really dark. That is why the Easter hare, Santa Claus, and the Xmas child (bringing the gifts in Germany) come in the night, i. e. as soon as the day has begun.
This leads to the question: When is it really dark? In the rabbinical tradition Sabbat begins when you can see three stars with one look, and Ibn-Hanbal, founder of an Islamic legal tradition, used a white and black thread. If you couldn't discern them it was dark enough for the beginning of a new day. (I used this device to stop my daughters' questioning when it is dark enough to light the tree on Xmas eve. I shall never forget how they cried: It's dark, I can't discern the threads any more, and I answered: Bad luck, I still can.)


Wilfried.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Nerd
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 07:56 PM

Nonie,

we do have some archaeological evidence about Celts and druidical practice--including animal sacrifice--although most of it is from Gaul, not Britain. We also have archaeological evidence of human sacrifice among Celts, although not from the region where druids are attested. Druidic human sacrifice is attested in Classical accounts, but not much in the archaeological record. However, many archaeologists think that various bog bodies fit the bill as evidence of human sacrifice among Celts who would have practiced the religion overseen by druids. In general, this evidence adds up to support a position that it is likely, but not certain, that druids practiced human sacrifice.

What happens in the more fuzzy world of pop archaeology and pop history is that people conflate all the evidence from the Celtic world (which, of course, covers many centuries and a wide swath of Europe and Asia Minor) into one distorted picture of "the Celts." That is problematic. But it's not true that we know NOTHING about them, either.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: LadyJean
Date: 26 Sep 03 - 10:23 PM

Many years ago, I found myself at a party trying to explain Halloween to a couple of students from Mainland China. It really didn't work. I was dressed as The Farmer's Daughter, and my date was, of course, The Travelling Salesman. We couldn't explain that to the Chinese either.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 02:13 AM

Oh, Jeez, I just noticed I was addressing a post from six years ago! D'oh! Well, anyway, here's a take on a six-year-old problem:

the controversy at the origin of this thread is a little silly. First of all, isn't Cricket a children's magazine? Why would we expect complete accuracy from them? Then, as to whether bonfire is a Celtic word. Well, okay, it isn't, but if we just assume that the Cricket writer made a mistake in writing "The word 'bonfire' itself comes from 'bone-fire' because the bones of the sacrifices remained in the ashes" as though it were relevant to Halloween, the whole problem of whether there was also a Germanic festival involved goes away. In fact, since we know the word "bonfire" was not used by Celts, and that "bonfire" is not associated early on with Halowe'en, it seems to me this is exactly what has happened. And Nonie is right to point out that the specificity to which the Cricket writer goes is absurd; we don't know that any of this is true. We DO know that Halloween is, in part, derived from Celtic Samhain.

If you want a thorough and well-researched explanation of Halloween, look for Jack Santino's book on the subject.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 05:30 AM

I know there are quite a few people on mudcat who still celebrate Samhain as part of their religion and we still have bonfires on the night!!

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Nerd
Date: 27 Sep 03 - 11:57 PM

Yes, catsPHiddle, I wasn't denying that big fires were lit on Samhain (though it was the other seasonal festival, Bealtaine, where fires were more important). Just denying that they were specifically BONFIRES in the ancient (presumably Germanic) sense of fires made of the bones of sacrifices. We have no evidence that this is true in Celtic communities, and I assume your own fires are made more with wood and other materials than with human bones!

Otherwise remind me to simply agree with everything you say in future :-)

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 01:29 AM

I doubt the Celts (and whoever else) bothered to call the fires anything special. Why people feel the need to have everything have a special name is beyond me.

As for celebrating Hallowe'en/Samhain (Summer's End - oooh there's a special name!), as far as I'm concerned I wish all the good Christians out their would stop observing a Pagan holiday (and at the end of December - gives us back our evergreens! Jesus was born in March or April anyhow!).

Pax yall

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:52 AM

Nerd I wasn't having a go at you! Yes you are right our bonfires are made out of wood and not bones!! and yes we do have bonfires at Beltane and Samhain

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 09:25 AM

Nerd:
As to 'Bonefires' containing bones. Preumably (as mentioned here) the tradition of putting an effigy of "Guido Fawkes" atop the fire only dates from his miserably failed attempt to dissolve Parliament.
Was it, in those days, just a new twist to a very old, but little practised tradition?

And in South Wales, swedes are hollowed out to make Hallowe'en Lanterns. The insides can be eaten, but I don't reccomend it!

Nigel

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 10:09 AM

BUT! Let's not forget that in the change from the Julian to the Gregorian calendars (in 1752 for England and US, if my memory is correct) 11 days were added to the calendar. Old Style, Hallowe'en would fall on October 20 and All Saints' Day on October 21. It also moves the dates of the various other feasts back 11 days.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:01 PM

Rapaire

In the real old days Samhian was a "moveable" date (as was all Pagan celebrations) Samhain traditionally falls on the day of the midpoint between the Autumnal Equinox and Winter Solstice. Typically that date falls a couple days into November on our modern calendars. It can also be connected with the date that the Zodiac sign Scorpio passes it's mid point in it's transit.

Also remember that when talking about calendars concerning Pagan holidays, the lunar calendar was the typical day - to - day calendar for most people in ancient times just like it is for the religions of Judiasm, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:24 PM

Rapaire, you need to remember that the old calendar was out of kilter with natural phenomena by eleven days - that was why the change was made. The solstices and equinoxes belong properly about the very low twenties of their respective months, and had moved into the following months over the years, because of the failure to account properly for the not-exactly-a-quarter of day in the Earth's orbit.

When Old Style began, the festivals were as they are now, but the Old Style calendar was disconnected from reality from the start. Bede noticed it, but no-one picked him up on it. Roger Bacon worked on the problem. We have finally got it right, and people keep on about those dratted eleven days as though the new calendar has moved things out of place, instead of replacing them.

Penny

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Forsh
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 03:33 PM

Turnip lanterns: Up here in Northumberland, many folk, for whatever reason, call the 'Swede' a turnip (Swede being a globular shape, with a reddish-brrown skin, turnips being longer root veg' with pale yellowish skin) Back in the 'old days' (Ha!) of the early 60s, we would go to the nearest farmer's field and snaffle a swede, and spend the rest of the weekend preparing it/carving out the innards in preperation for the night of haloween. We never used to do any trick or treat stuff, just turn up at a door, do yer scarry bit, and beg a penny for haloween.
Of course Dad Forsh was born on the 31st, and for a while tried to adopt the 'stage name' of Sam Hain. I just couldn't bring meself to do it! I stuck to 'Dad' and that was generally enough to cramp his style!
Whatever the origins, I don't care, I just hope that each culture can celebrate it in the way that they always have, alas, in UK now it is mor like the USA, pumpkins and trick or treat, with ready made plastic shite in the stores. Kids don't seem to make anything these days, as a matter of fact, I can't recall the last time I saw a 'Guy' on the 5th of November, nor a 'boggie' made from a plank, a piece of string and a set of pram wheels.....(sigh) ...

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 03 - 04:02 PM

And if the pagan dating was "corrected" by the Christians for being "off" by eleven days, then how is it the people of Ireland who who had the technologicial and astronomical knowledge to build Newgrange, had the winter solstice sunrise calculated so damned exactly, and their engineering so perfect, that the sunrise STILL hits the mark nearly perfectly on solstice morn, after lo these many thousands of years? Sorta makes ya wonder.

It's Halloween, it's Halloween
the moon is full and bright.
And we shall see what can't be seen
on any other night.

Skeletons and ghosts and ghouls
grinning goblins fighting duels
Werewolves rising from their tombs
witches on their magic brooms.

In masks and gowns
we haunt the street
And knock on doors
for trick or treat.

Tonight we are
the king and queen,
For oh tonight
it's Halloween!

~Jack Prelutsky~

I'm a jack o' lantern with a great big grin.
I'm a jack o' lantern with a candle in .                  
Poof! goes the wind and out goes the light.
Away fly the witches on Halloween night!

~Anon~

I served on the PTA when my kids were in school, and we regularly had good fundamentalist Christians come but once a year (to the meeting just prior to Halloween) to lecture us on the pagan nature of the holiday, and why the annual Halloween parties and pageant and games should be immediately cancelled, to save our souls.

Nowadays, Halloween is for kids, so I completely resent the suggestion that Cricket magazine should be scorned for it's inauthenticity. Who really cares? Bah humbug, and pass the cider me sez.

And none of that airy fairy, Halloween should be all sweetness and light shit either. Scare 'em to death! My mom used to dress up as a witch every Halloween, and upon opening the door to trick or treaters, regardless of age, threaten to throw them in the oven! Now those were the days! None of that PC "oooh, we might scare the kiddies" crap back then!

Halloween has been so damn lobotomized by the fundie Christian nuts and the PC brigade that claims that giving kids a good fright is tantamount to child abuse, that I've joined the Mexicans. At least "Day of the Dead" hasn't been taken over by the bloody do gooders yet.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Nerd
Date: 29 Sep 03 - 12:52 AM

Nigel, The idea of burning someone in effigy certainly existed before Guy Fawkes, and it may well originally have symbolized an actual sacrificial burning. The horrors of "The Wicker Man," (in which Edward Woodward was burned alive inside a giant effigy man) were based on accounts of that same practice among the Celts written by Strabo and Caesar, and probably based on a lost source, the writings of Poseidonius. Whether the Celts really did that, we don't know, as we have only the written accounts to go by.

And thank Goodness for Forsh's post. I'm an American, so I thought you were saying you carved out a Swedish person to use as a Jack-O-Lantern! I was glad you didn't recommend eating the insides :-)

Guest, I wasn't saying that Cricket should be scorned for its inauthenticity, merely that to get into an argument about the lexical roots of the word "bonfire," and whether the presence of that word in a Cricket Magazine article meant a Germanic component to Halloween, was silly. The magazine is simply not that accurate. It's fine for kids, but historians shouldn't take it as gospel.

Also, Neolithic and bronze-age sites like Newgrange were built centuries (indeed, millennia) before the Gaelic people came to Ireland, so they have little bearing on the accuracy of Pagan Gaelic/Irish calendars. They may be wonders of engineering, but their secrets could have been entirely lost to the Irish when the Julian calendar was introduced.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 02:33 AM

Rapaire - let's put it right: In Gregorii XIII reform there were 11 days not added, but omitted: Oct. 4, 1582 was followed by Oct. 15, because the calendar had gained 11 days since Julii Caesaris reform. The system of intercalary days had to be changed also to put the calendar in order. It still doesn't fit exactly to the tropical year now, but we have to wait until the year 4195, when the calendar will have gained one (1) day. Perhaps July 3, 4195 might be followed by July 5.
So Halloween should be at the eve of Nov. 14 (old style), because since the reform of 1582 the calendar has gained 13 days in the last century. You could have seen this in the Great October Revolution which was celebrated in November. In the Soviet calendar reform Febr. 1, 1918 was followed by Febr. 14 - but not out of respect to St Valentine, I'm afraid.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 06:55 AM

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 06:56 AM

And it is recorded that there were riots in the streets because many people thought that 11 days had been taken away from their lives

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Oct 03 - 07:18 AM

Guest - the reference, please.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: GUEST,Julian - Druid in Wales UK
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:14 AM

Perhaps you all would like to visit my website www.sorchartarot.com and all shall become clear for you all, in regard to Samhain ( Halloween), as we Celts in Wales and as Druids, have been celebrating these ancient three nights for 1000's of years.

Julian - Sorchar nan Reul
www.sorchartarot.com

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: MMario
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:20 AM

well - after 1200 years I think it safe to say the "Halloween" and "Samhain" are two different and seperate holidays - though sharing some characteristics.

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Darowyn
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 09:43 AM

Judy says:-
"In Ireland, Halloween was a good time for getting back at people you didn't like or for just plain making mischief"
The idea of a night when the rules don't apply is much more widespread in the UK than just the Celtic countries. It is probably related to the "Lord of Misrule" tradition that is part of the Midwinter festival too. It certainly fits with the Halloween- All Souls story.
I grew up in Leeds where the fourth of November was "Mischief Night"
In Liverpool there is a tradition of "Judas Fires" on that night.
There are similar customs in other parts of England, the North at least, sometimes attatched to Halloween, sometimes to Bonfire Night (November 5th)
US style Trick or Treat was unknown here until the film "E.T." set the pattern, and there is so much commercialism involved with it now, that neither purist pagans nor fundamentalist Christians have much chance of dislodging it.
It's recent, of traceable origin, but nevertheless traditional, like all those songs that trad folkies disapprove of! (see the much longer thread on Tradition!)
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: Anne Lister
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 06:14 PM

At the risk of *really* setting things off ...Many current archaeologists would dispute that the Celts ever invaded these islands - see Francis Prior's excellent tv programmes on Britain BC (available I'm sure on DVD) and a book called "The Atlantic Archipelago" by someone whose name has slipped my brain for a moment. So whatever traditions we're celebrating here in the UK they're not necessarily Celtic, whatever that term means, if anything.
However a good friend of mine was brought up in North Wales with a lot of family traditions dating back more generations than she could count, and Nos Calan Gaeaf is what she calls the end of October. It's the end of the old year, start of the new, and what you do is spend a little time around a big outdoor fire remembering family members who have died and making wishes/spells for the new year. If all goes according to plan, the weather shifts towards winter around this time - let's hope this year is the way it should be!

Anne

Subject: RE: Halloween Origins
From: katlaughing
Date: 27 Oct 06 - 11:16 PM

Julian, welcome to the Mudcat and thanks for the link to your website. Quite interesting and I love the black cat eyes blinking at me!:-) (As well as the other *informative* stuff.

BB,

kat