BS: Is it a Tuba?

Subject: Is it a Tubasnake?
From: Bedubya
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:21 PM

I recently saw a tape of a British production of Hardy's Tess of the D'Urbervilles that a friend had taped from the A&E cable channel. There are a couple of scenes in which an Irish band is playing for dances. One of the instruments being played seems to be a variation of the tuba. However, instead of being coiled and of brass, it is in the form of a series of "S" curves and appears to be made of a hardwood such as ebony. It looks more like a shillelagh than any musical instrument I've ever seen. What the Hell is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:51 PM

Serpant?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 12:52 PM

.."Or are you just glad to see me?"

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:29 PM

Serpent piccy here

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:32 PM

...and scroll down to the foot of the page for a more scary picture...

Though why/how a serpent would be playing Irish dance music escapes me! I'd like to know what the producer was on...

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM

well done Noreen !!!!
..........I've been looking for ages
Where is that web wizard Sorcha anyhow???
I found this from here

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Bedubya
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 01:45 PM

Thank you Noreen!

Another know-nothing has been enlightened by the Mudcat!

bwl

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 02:09 PM

You're welcome, BW! Amazing what's out there on the web.

Roger- your site has a sound clip, so you win! (And a picture of it being played by whatsisname who used to perform with Les Dennis?)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: wildlone
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:10 PM

Boring history bit warning.
Both Hardy's Father and Grandfather were musicians in the local Stinsford quire, they would play at dances and gatherings but they also played in church to accompany the singing.
The instuments used included violins, "bass fiddles",and quite often the serpent.
The musicians in church would be in a gallery hence the name gallery carols.
When the Hardy family music manuscripts were played by the Yetties one of the tunes was Brighton Camp or Girl I left behind me or even Waxie's dargle so it could be quite possable for Irish tunes to have been played using a serpent or indeed any of the insruments that were in the band.
Anyone interested in country musicians should read Under the Greenwood Tree.
There is a great story about how a group of such mucisians who having to sit in a cvold church took along some brandy to keep out the chill.
The sermon being long and the level of the bottle going down the boys fell into a doze.
The vicar concluding called for the next hymn.
No music, so the vicar shouted "Play on up there".
"Well it were getting see, and we had been out till dawn playing up at squires so when we heard the shout gaffer said play up boys and led us into the Devil amongst the tailors".
By the next week vicar put in one of they new harmonious organs and that were the last time we played in church.
dave

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:21 PM

Thanks, dave, good story- I wasn't thinking about that context: the term "Irish band" threw me. I imagine though that the serpent would have played a form of bass line to the faster tunes?

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: wildlone
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:33 PM

Here is a link to some west gallery music sites.
Click here
dave

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Bedubya
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 03:58 PM

Noreen

The way the band in the movie used the serpent is very similar to the way some contemporary Celtic bands use electronic keyboards to add bass to tunes. Not the usual bass lines like on a plucked bass guitar. More in the style of bowing an upright bass . If I had just heard the music on a tape instead of seeing the musicians I would have thought it was a keyboard being played. It's that similar. Nowhere near oompah-oompah.

Thanks again,

bwl

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: katlaughing
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM

Noreen, I imagine they wound up in Irish tunes prior to St. Patrick's appearance. **BG**

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: richardw
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 08:37 PM

To refer to an earlier request of mine, while we are on the topic, has anyone ever found a photo or description of a bombardon?

It was played in a band in the 1860s and was similar to a tuba or Sousaphone, but I have yet to an=ctually see one. Ideas?

Richard Wright http://goldrushbc.ocm

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: catspaw49
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 09:34 PM

Hi richard.......Try this page......CLICK HERE

Is that the info you were looking for?

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 09:58 PM

Sorcha the wizard has spent all day in Denver with daugh. Kate at the Dr. and basically learned not much. So sorry I wasn't here in your hour of need, (lol) but see, ya found it anyway!! It's good practice for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: richardw
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:16 PM

Brilliant!

Thanks CatsPaw. Just goes to show ya--old threads never die. When I first posted this I had little luck.

Now, to find a real one.

Now if you want to see another really interesting instrument try this.

ebay item 1421272751 (I can't copy the address)

It is a violin with a rounded mandolin bottom to which is attached a a wooden phonograph horn. The horn comes from the chamber, not a diaphram like the Stroh violin. It is all wood. Reserve is $1200 so it will have to wait.

Thanks

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:20 PM

We do our best, Sorcha... :0)

Fascinating thread- two questions efficiently answered, and lots more knowledge (that we didn't know that we wanted to know) disseminated!!

Noreen
(Good one, kat!)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:23 PM

Rich, I don't know where you are, but the Boulder Early Music shop in Boulder Colorado, US probably either has one or can get one. Also try Lark in the Morning or Elderly. I know Lark and Elderly have websites, BEM probably does too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:42 PM

Well, Richard, that is a weird one...

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 Apr 01 - 10:52 PM

Lark in the Morning has one here. It's the next to last item on the page. $1200.00US.....

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: richardw
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 11:34 AM

Thanks again Sorcha;

What I really meant though was were to find a bombardon. As an old brass played I migth be able to play that. The Serpent? I doubt it. I am trying to find an appropriate bass instrument for music from the 1850s-70s. The only one I have been able to document in our goldfields is the bombardon, though likely a tuba of some kind was alos used in less remote areas.

By the way Sorcha, that Coming back to Miltown has turned into a great piece for us. I combine it with the story in When the Work's alll done this fall. Some fo the verses have very similar sentiments. It was a good find on your part and there is little doubt in my mind but that Work was based on Miltown.

Thanks again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Sorcha
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 01:02 PM

Richard, I have been fooling around on the web, and it seems there are two different instruments called the "bombard/bombarde/bombardon". One is the brass tuba thing that spaw found above. I have not been able to find anyone who sells these....

Much more common is the bombard which is a double reed instrument from Brittany and popular in French speaking countries. It seems likely to me that this is the one that ended up in the BC goldfields, having come across the continent from Cape Breton...... here is a page about that one, with makers....

And here is a page with a photo from a museum in Canada......

As a brass player, you would be better off with a serpent, as they have a tuba style mouthpiece, but how historically accurate it would be for your area is doubtful.

Oh yes, nearly all of the pages I found were in French, and most had to do with the "bombarde stop" on a pipe organ......

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 02:55 PM

General Brass Instruments

might be helpful?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 03:01 PM

Tuba fore?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: wildlone
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 03:16 PM

The violin type instrument looks like a REBEC but I have never seen one with a horn
Here is a rebec pic
If you can wait for the page to download there is a lot of info and pics of rebecs including how to make your own Click here
dave

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:43 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: RichM
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 10:44 PM

Tuba, or not Tuba?

That is the question!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 06 Apr 01 - 11:27 PM

and what's your answer?

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: RichM
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 04:00 AM

Shakespeare already answered this question ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 05:40 AM

The 'violin with a horn' was used in the early days of gramophone recordings before electronics, multitrack machines and sound mixing consoles were used. The solo violin played the horn fiddle near to the recording equipment just to be heard!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Bernard
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 05:40 AM

The 'violin with a horn' was used in the early days of gramophone recordings before electronics, multitrack machines and sound mixing consoles were used. The solo violin played the horn fiddle near to the recording equipment just to be heard!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: richardw
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 12:28 PM

Bernard is correct but the violin used for recording was the Stroh. We have one and play it. However, as I mentioned earlier it was quite different than the one on e-bay. The Stroh and it's family placed the bridge on top of a diaphram, similar to a phonograph (hence the name phono fiddle). The diaphram went to the brass or aluminum trumpet like horn. It is indeed very loud. Don't stand in front of one. You can see a Stroh being played in "Finding Forester" in a dance band. The e-bay "rebec" is not the same. This has a larger bottom chamber and a wooden horn into the chamber. There is no diaphram. My guess would be that it was used in a dance ensemble situation where they needed amplification, and of course, might have been used in recording. But the Stroh was made specifically for that. Ours came from a mountain village in Romania and was hand made just last year. it is still used there for "gypsy" music.

Sorcha: The reason I leaned twoard the brass bombardon is the valves. I can handle valves as an old cornet player. 6 holes like a recorder would challange my old fingers. I do like the sound of the serpent mind you. I can certainly see some of the smaller woodwind insturments making their way to the goldfields.Easy to carry, reasonably like. The bass instruments were likely rarer due to size--particularly in the early years when there were no stagecoaches.

Great links to those early instruments. The brass links are terrific.

Richard

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: alison
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM

looks like Russ Abbott in that picture.....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 01:50 PM

Thanks, Alison- that's the chap whose name I couldn't remember... CRS strikes again.

(I love the sound of the Serpent in the link Roger gave above.)

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Bedubya
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 02:04 PM

Since beginning this thread I have discovered that the serpent-featuring band in the Tess production I saw is an English troupe known as the Mellstock Band. They took their name from the fictional name Hardy gave to his home parish in his novels. Apparently they are heavy duty Hardy freaks, so it is not by accident that they appeared in the movie.

Cheers

bwl

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 02:15 PM

Thanks, bwl. Is the film called Tess of the D'Urbervilles ? I'll look out for it- may be on video?

Noreen

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 02:37 PM

Thread Creep, I love Thomas Hardy novels and I remember going to a Church in a Dorset village a few years back that features in Tess of the D'Urbervilles. The church has a beautiful ceiling with figures carved in the beams, now what is the village called???
Anyone know where Liz t S is? She knows all 'bout Dorset!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 02:57 PM

Bere Regis????

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Micca
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 03:07 PM

When I got hitched a friend brought a serpent and played along with the Ceilidh band we had, and provided a sort of bass continuo to the music that was really nice, and it is LARGE sounds like a euphonium , but they were wood and leather,(modern replicas are glass fibre, I believe) Lovely sound, bass and mellow.Played with a tuba mouth piece..
You definately do not want to get too close to bombards!!!!!! they are LOUD.... they use them in processions in Catalonia, and with 12 playing in a band, in the open 50 feet away, I shouted as loud as I could in my friends ear and couldnt make myself understood.. and dont even THINK of playing one indoors, Manitas has one he got in Catalonia..I understand he is porbidden to play it indoors!!

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Bedubya
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 04:28 PM

Noreen

The exact title of the particular production is "Thomas Hardy's Tess of the D'urbervilles" and was originally a BBC Television production. It may not be commercially available but may be in libraries.

Cheers

bwl

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Noreen
Date: 07 Apr 01 - 06:15 PM

Thanks, bwl.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 01:17 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: bobby's girl
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 04:25 PM

The Mellstock band, featured in the film, tour regularly around UK. they are led by Dave Townsend, who is a recognised authority on West gallery music, and the music of the Hardy family. They use several authentic instruments of the period in addition to the serpent, and they are brilliant. Their sets consist of poetry and prose of the time as well as music, and they wear period style costumes. They are well worth a visit if you get the chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:59 AM

Tim Laycock is another name to watch out for in local Dorset music. He started the Melstock band, and is bloody good.

Roger, I can't remember the last time I was in Bere Regis church, although if it had box pews it was probably Puddletown, a few miles up the road. There was a BBC production last year or year before which was filmed quite a lot in Dorset, although not at Hardy's intended locatons. There is a film, 'Tess', by Roman Polanski which caused many a hoot in the cinema. I was sitting behind these two old dears who swore black and blue that one particular shot was outside their farm. I asked them if they lived in Brittany, because that is where it was filmed, and they got quite upset. I then had to explain just WHY Mr Polanski can no longer work in Britain and they got up and moved.... I had a good giggle about that!

The BBC are pretty good at trying to keep locations honest, although obviously it is difficult when doing period drama. When they did the Mayor of Casterbridge some 20 years ago, they used Dorchester (the original setting) for one or two bits, but mostly they used Corfe village, 20 miles East.

Thanks for giving me another blast of nostalgia.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 02:28 PM

I had a great holiday camping near Bere Regis some years ago, the weather was hot and sunny, and we visited some great villages (and pubs) along the Piddle. The church I remember most as it seemed strange to find in this quiet village the church mentioned in a book I had read years earlier.


Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:19 AM

So did you go into the Blue Vinney? Or the World?? Or the Kings Arms, Puddletown? They were my stamping ground when I was greasy biker chick nearly 20 years ago!!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Is it a Tuba?
From: GUEST,roger at work
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 09:19 AM

we went in every pub we could find !!