GORE'd TO DEATH:

Subject: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 12:28 AM

GORE LOSES AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN!!!

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 12:44 AM

How could you be "Gored to death"? The poor guy is hardly ever mentioned in the news any more, and yet he won the popular vote by a fairly large amount. I suppose we have to accept that Bush is President - but we don't have to like it.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: thosp
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 01:01 AM

for related thread use the blueclicketything

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: DougR
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 01:09 AM

Why, Joe, when posters like "Guest," post such a message does a veteran like you rise to the bait? If he/she were serious, they would identify themselves.

DougR

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 01:13 AM

Ah, but he gave me a chance to express my philosophy on the thing, Doug.
-Joe Offer-

Bush has failed already!
Lieberman in 2004!

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: GUEST,BRAD
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 08:28 AM

THANK GOD GOREY DIDNT WIN WHERE WOULD AMERICA BE SCARY ISNT IT,,,,, GO BUSH !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: kendall
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 08:47 AM

Where would America be? ASk the Canadians. Ask any other citizen of any other country. Bush has already pissed off most of the rest of the world. Is stupidity an impeachable offense?

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Mountain Dog
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 09:56 AM

Kendall,

Nope, it's not. Were stupidity an impeachable offense we'd have seen many more trials in the Senate over the last two centuries, to the point that they would be commonplace rather than an extraordinary events...

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Kelticgrasshopper
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 11:16 AM

I fear for the future of this country with BUSH at the "helm".. In just a few months he has managed to make a mockery of this country with his stupid remarks. I think that it will be an act of God if we manage to keep ourself out of war with him in office.. And as far as the economy and the average joe here goes keep your money under the bed or send it to a bank in Canada where its worth more..

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM

Those of you who classify Bush as stupid are making a dangerous error. He isn't stupid, but intellectually he has a hard time getting on base. There is a difference. This is a man with a simplistic view of his country's place in the community of nations. He has a cabinet of very sharp, and driven Washington insiders each with an agenda. And they are, for the most part, on the far right fringe. Bush's version of foreign policy is dangerous, not because of ambitions to "spread the doctrine", as in the case of zealotry. He is dangerous, much more so than a zealot, because his policy has to do with favoring the multinationals to the exclusion of our role as assisting (with respect for the countries involved positions)in bringing peace and stability to the children of the world. Bear with me a bit, because I don't mean this in a paternalistic way. President Clinton, no matter what you think of his personal behaviour, understood this. Ask the peacemakers in the North of Ireland what our role meant to bringing them to the brink of peace. And ask them what the hands off approach of Bush means. Same with the Middle East. When the downtrodden feel as though their position won't get a fair hearing, and there is no mediator who has the clout to insure fairness and force dialogue, these fragile embryo's for peace tend to wither and die. As I watch the China situation unfold, this administrations lack of understanding of the role that culture plays in negotiation causes me great worry. Thank God that Colin Powell is Secretary of State, as I believe he has the gravitas and understanding to avoid this becoming worse than it is. I stick by my predictions made elsewhere in this forum. The danger that this man represents for peace and stability in this world and in this country is clear to me.

All the best,

Big Mick

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: kendall
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 01:00 PM

Mr. Powell is a figurehead.

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 01:12 PM

I don't disagree that that is what he was appointed to be, Ken, but he won't allow that to be the case. I believe he knew going in what he was appointed to be. But his whole life he has lived that role and then changed it by force of personality and excellence. I have NOT lost my marbles and turned Republican (in the U.S.A political sense....**grin**), I just have a great deal of respect for this man. Even in his role in the Republican Party you can see this.

Mick

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 06:28 PM

you know...in our history there have been various men who were courted by both parties and could easily have chosen either one..(Eisenhower for one)...I suspect Powell is another. He is a reasonable man, as far as I can see, and I am not 'uneasy' having his where he is...so far.

I like Mick's point about Bush not being stupid, just having difficulty seeing certain things. When you listen to his remarks about complex world affairs carefully, it soon become apparent that he is not saying much of substance. Short, declarative sentences using small words and saying basically, "We'll work on that and do the right thing" He seldom answers hard questions off the cuff like Clinton did.....he goes back to his 'brain trust' and gets digested input written out for him, then reads it. I am not sure whether HE is smart enough to realize that he needs to do it his way, or whether someone told him bluntly.."...boss, don't go out there and babble till we have a chance to get you some words ready.".....There are things we simply don't find out till years later.

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 06:35 PM

It's not Gore I'm worried about...

- LH

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 09:14 PM

I hope you're right Big Mick. There was what looked like a well researched story about Powell having been significantly involved at a crucial time in his career in the early cover-up over the MyLai massacre. (With the forum supersearch down I haven't been able to trace the post about it on the Mudcat, with a link to the story.)

But I suppose that kind of thing is part of the process by which you get to rise in the system, and wouldn't necessarily rule out some kind of basic decency. Let's hope so anyway.

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: MAV
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 10:55 PM

They should have backed Bradley, at least he was likeable.

He was also honest, wrong, but honest.

mav out

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 01 - 11:02 PM

well, wrong can sometimes be turned to right...dishonest is usually forever.

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:46 AM

MAV, I'm curious, did you live through the "great depression"? Were you around when Henry Fords company thugs were beating men sometime to death because they wanted decent working conditions? Do you know about the Hoverville in Washington where the assembled veterans were burned out by Hoovers army? Were you there when Douglas McArthur overstepped his authority and men were killed in that rout? Were you there when the republicans declared that the depression would cure itself in the long run? Well, as FDR said "People dont eat in the long run." If you have never seen the movie, MATEWAN or the GRAPES OF WRATH, rent them. They just might open your eyes a bit.

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: MAV
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 10:52 PM

Kendall,

Those times are history. The pendulum has swung the other way and now the unions have the thugs and very little reason to exist except extortion for the democrats.

Do you realize the union is the government is organized crime???

If you have never seen the movie, MATEWAN or the GRAPES OF WRATH, rent them. They just might open your eyes a bit

I don't believe in Hollywood. So many promised to leave the country if Bush were elected and they lied, they are still here.

When there is prosperity, unions are unnecessary. The last thing in the world we need are unions in government.

Guess what. 85% of union membership is govt employees collectively barganing against the taxpayers.

Ever been to DMV, rude treatment from inefficient union types?

The Post Office raises 1st class rates, wants to cut Saturday delivery, why? Overpaid union workers. You may be standing in line, hearing workers laughing out back while there is only one counter position open...THEY CAN'T OPEN ANOTHER ONE DUE TO UNION RULES!!!

Overpaid union thugs are collecting tolls on the turnpike. All in moronic jobs being paid WAY more than they deserve.

*Bleep* the government unions, they can go to hell!

mav out

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 03:55 AM

Unions are necessary in good times, because without them the good times stay at the top and don't "trickle down" to the people actually doing the work.

I've worked for the government, MAV, and didn't see anybody standing around not working but still collecting a paycheck. This is typical Republican media-fodder, and you should look into things a little more closely before you go around spouting the party line so readily.

Alex

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 07:21 AM

I also worked for the govt. there was no union of any kind. One of the reasons the PO service is in trouble is E mail. Matewan is a true story. I know because a friend of mine was a miner there. Grapes of Wrath was a book before the movie version. So, in hard times we have union thugs, in good times we have union busters. Where does that leave us? I'd rather belong to a union run by not so honest people than to have no say whatever as was the case before unions.

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 12:04 PM

Y'know, no matter who gets elected, half of the people are going to be unhappy!

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 12:37 PM

In this case, more than half.

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 03:45 PM

"where there is prosperity unions are unnecessary" whose prosperity? if it wasnt for the unions wed be working for peanuts. In the past prosperous industrialists didnt give a damn about working conditions, if it wasnt for tragedies like the fire in the Triangle Shirt factory (80yrs ago) where over 140 teenage girls perished because management locked the doors and windows, didnt not provide any safe exits while the managers themselves safely escaped to the top of the building and never bothered to unlock the employees door. The country was outraged and things started to change. But that sort of thing is still happening in many developing countries. (you can bet that the WTO doesnt address issues like working conditions and worker rights as well as environment) I recomend Roger and Me as a rental video (certainly not Hollywood) where Michael Moore follows the CEO of General Motors around restricted Country Clubs trying to ask the question why at a time when GM is making record profits its laying off thousands of employess.

By the way one interesting fact is that the US Govt gives out far more in handouts to corporations in grants etc than it does in welfare payments. eg. why does Pillsbury when its making huge profits need a 10million dollar grant to setup a plant in Mexico. Its a great scene when Moore attempts to give a $20 cheque to the CEO of Pillsbury (as theyre obviously in need of money.)

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Troll
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 05:21 PM

MAV I must take exception to your assertion that union rules preventanother postal window from being opened. To my direce knowledge there is nothing in the union rules that pertains to the number of postal windows that can be opened at any one time That it usually a managment decision and the union and the rank and file have little or nothing to do with it. There ARE union rules that apply to WHO may work at a window but these have to do with training etc and not with numbers.
I say "direct knowledge" since I worked for the PO for 30 years and spent 11 of those years as a window clerk. I also have a bit of knowledge about the union contract since I was a Shop Steward for several years.
As far as being overpaid, postal workers pay is slightly below that of UPS and FEDEX. We negotiate our pay through collective bargaining but do not have the right to strike. At that, the US has the lowest postal rates in the world except for CANADA- which is subsidized- and delivers more mail than the rest of the world combined.
We will send a letter across the street or across the continent for $.34.
Show me a better bargain?

troll

Subject: RE: GORE'd TO DEATH:
From: Bill D
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 05:39 PM

without unions, workers will never get a fair share or decent conditions....WITH unions, they demand more than their fair share and hold the rest of us hostage with system clogging strikes. It seems to be human nature to press the advantage and want to position ones self in the best way possible, and to hell with the rest!

Same principle as regulation and de-regulation...the moment controls are removed, someone gets greedy. I am a crafts person, I work for myself.....and if I raise my prices to keep up with (partially)union driven inflation, people simply wont buy. Plumbers say "if you don't like my charges, fix/install it yourself". Yes, I know, inflation and spiraling prices are driven by a complex set of things, of which unions are only a part...and I don't want to back to a time when workers were exploited and fired with little recourse....but CRAP, let's have some sanity on the matter!