Homeopathy for the Voice

Subject: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: GUEST,Mary in Boston
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 06:21 PM

(I wasn't able to find the original thread.)

Kendall,

I was glad to read that you would like to give homeopathy a try! It's helped me enormously with several long-standing problems.

The remedies that helped my voice were:

Rhus Toxicodendron - dosage 30C Ruta Graveolens - dosage 30C

The remedies come in little pellets, and you take them by dissolving 3-4 of them under your tongue. (Normally a person takes one remedy at a time; however, I'm suggesting you take both because I don't know for sure which remedy was the one which helped me.)

You need to take them at least half an hour before or after eating or drinking ANYTHING, smoking, taking asprin, etc. (I usually take them just before going to bed at night, after doing my toothbrushing earlier.)

Homeopathy is different from conventional medicine - you take remedies to start your body's healing process. Once the process is launched, you stop taking the remedy because it has done its work. Take the remedies for a week If they have not helped by then, stop because this indicates they are not the right remedies for you. If your voice is better, stop and let the healing process continue. Then, if you reach a "plateau" where there is no more improvement, but you are not fully healed, take the remedies again for one more week, and stop again. (Since your's is a chronic condition, you may need to repeat this cycle several times over a period of a couple of months.)

VIP - MINT blocks homeopathic remedies from working, so check your toothpaste, teas, etc. Avoid anything with mint for the whole week. Coffee sometimes, for some people, interfears with remedies - it would be a good idea to allow a 2-hour window between the remedies and coffee drinking.

Remedies can often be found at natural food stores, and cost about $6-7 each. If there are none close to you, you can order them by phone by calling Biron at 805/582-9091 (M-F, 8:30-5 Pacific Time). They will have a pharmacy near you ship to you.

Some good general information on homeopathy: http://health.yahoo.com/health/Alternative_Medicine/Alternative_Therapies/Homeopathy/

Good luck - I hope this helps!

Mary

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Sorcha
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 06:24 PM

WOW! Good stuff, there Mary. How about arthritis?

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 06:30 PM

For arthritis I take glucosomune sulfate. Thanks for the tip Mary, I'll try them.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Robo
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 07:16 PM

Not exactly medicien I'm talking here, but even a year after giving up smoking, my voice and voicebox are still craggy and tight until I pop a couple of cherry Life-Savers. Never fails to smooth and loosen, and nothing else really does it for me. For what it's worth . . . .

Rob-o

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:02 PM

Homeopathic remedies are chosen based on comparing the specific symptoms that you have with the specific symptoms associated with a remedy--since one person's sore throat symtpoms may be completely different from another's, the remedy may be completely different, as well. The secret is to find the remedy that fits your symptoms, rather than using the remedy that worked for Mary.

A Rhus Toxidendron sore throat would feel dry, with a tickling in the larynx, it might have been caused by straining the voice, but it would improve from use.

A burning sore throat, with ulcers would respond better to Arsenicum.

If you are going to use homeopathic remedies, you need to get a a Materia Medica, which includes the symptoms associated with each of the remedies (there are several thousand) and a Reperatory, which is an index of the symptoms and the remedies that go with them.

There is a very good book called "The Complete Homeopathy Handbook" by Miranda Castro, St. Martin's Press, with an easy to understand Materia Medica and Repertory, that you can find at Borders, or perhaps at your natural food store for around fifteen dollars-- it also explains how to collect the symptoms and figure out the remedy that is best--

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Alice
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 08:59 PM

If homeopathy "works" for you, it is because of the placebo affect.

More info here:Homeopathy, the Ultimate Fake

quote in part....."Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30 billion times the size of the Earth.

Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

Actually, the laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, which is related to Avogadro's number, corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). Hahnemann himself realized that there is virtually no chance that even one molecule of original substance would remain after extreme dilutions. But he believed that the vigorous shaking or pulverizing with each step of dilution leaves behind a "spirit-like" essence -- "no longer perceptible to the senses" -- which cures by reviving the body's "vital force." Modern proponents assert that even when the last molecule is gone, a "memory" of the substance is retained. This notion is unsubstantiated. Moreover, if it were true, every substance encountered by a molecule of water might imprint an "essence" that could exert powerful (and unpredictable) medicinal effects when ingested by a person."

The following 1842 essay by Oliver Wendell Holmes is also interesting. I realize what I post here will be controversial, but I believe people should have all the information they can get before they use any form of treatment. Most consumers buy these products without knowing enough about them to make an informed decision. Homeopathy and Its Kindred Delusions, Oliver Wendell Holmes

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 09:17 PM

That should start something!

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 09 Apr 01 - 09:22 PM

Thanks for the info Alice. I've researched your info and links before and have found them quite informative and reputable. I appreciate the time and effort you've given us for reliable info.

Mary

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 05:08 AM

Yes, Alice - I've read this before and acknowledge the triusm of the facts stated - but Homeopathy still works somehow and that's a fact too! Many Veterinary Surgeons in the UK now use homeopathy because it works so well on animals (who are immune to the placebo effect).

I've seen it work on my children (who are also immune to the placebo effect)

So - it's a mystery and it is right that it should be debated. However, I deplore the current trend for Chain store pharmacies to plug it/sell it to the general public who proceed to take the remedies like cough candy sweets. There is no substitute for seeing a qualified homeopath. 7 years I took my 5 year old when he developed Asthma and was on all kinds of conventional drugs. She treated him with Tuberculin - Now I read that conventional medical research has found a link between Tuberculosis exposure and subsequent protection from Asthma.

So!

I don't rest my case - but I wish people wouldn't knock things for the sake of knocking them in a sweeping generalisation of alternative to conventional methods. After all the Queen has her own Homeopathic Physician (and what ever one thinks about the Monarchy I am sure SHEcan afford to get the best treatment - what ever that may be)

Cheers, Hille

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 05:41 AM

You can call it placebo, you can call it anything, but if it works...

The human body has a very great potential for self-healing. Anything that assists that healing is surely a good thing. Adding lots of healing drugs or other artificial substances can work but so can other methods. There is a very powerful drugs industry who will use their power and influence (money) to rubbish the claims of any complementary therapy. But are they more interested in money than healing?

It's surely wrong to have blind faith in any method of cure, but we do because we are so desparate for a cure. I personally do not see anything wrong in attempting any non-invasive method of cure. I hope you find something that works for you, Kendall.

Les

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:15 AM

I agree with Les - whether a thing works or not is more important than whether it should work.

I would always point the 'it's not possible' faction of any argument to look at the bumble-bee. By all know laws of physics, and you know we cannae change the laws o' physics, it cannot fly. Yet it does.

I also concur with the blind faith point. Homeopathy, as with all complimentary medicines, must be used in conjunction with conventional treatments. Point of fact - when did you last see homeopathy heal a broken arm? If, however, it helps even a small number of people, in any way and, more importantly, does no harm then why knock it?

There are more things in Heaven and Earth than ever dreamed of etc etc....

Cheers

Dave the try anything once Gnome

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:32 AM

No pill can cure a broken arm. Hence the saying, "As nervous as a Christian Scientist with a severed artery.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Les from Hull
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 09:25 AM

I've now had a chat with my partner, Maggie, about this. Maggie is a qualified reflexologist and masseuse and has lots of knowledge about other therapies, as well as being a singer.

Reflexology can be very helpful in easing throat problems. The reflex area on the foot for the throat is very small, though. But there are lots of case histories where people have got good results with reflexology.

Massage, particularly of the neck, can ease throat problems. You'll need someone who knows what they're doing, though. Maggie uses Ayurvedic (Indian - from India, not Native American!) techniques for this sort of problem.

Aromatherapy. Blue Camomile is an oil that is very useful with throat problems. Essential oils can also be used to make up a very effective mouth wash/gargle. You'll probably need Myrrh, Tea Tree and possibly Peppermint. You'll need to get a recipe and instructions for making it up. If you're interested (or if anyone else is) post here and I'll ask Maggie.

Alexander Technique was discovered by an actor who was getting throat and voice problems. By improving posture etc he was able to overcome these.

I hope some of these may be useful in allowing you to start gigging again.

Les

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: M.Ted
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 10:28 AM

Interestingly enough, there has been recent research that showed that, even in the most extreme dilution, there is still something there--the Avogadro's Number is a bit like Zeno's Paradox(which proves that you can never get to the door, because you'll get halfway there, and then half of that, and half of that, to infinity), an interesting idea that seems totally logical, but that falls apart completely in reality.

As to the broken arm, a homeopath will have it wrapped and braced in the same way that everyone else does, but probably will give you Arnica to prevent bruising and swelling, possibly followed by the above Rhus, and it will not get all swollen, purple and painful, whereas the good folks at ER will give you some pain suppressants which will work at first (for a while, your body will be so pumped on its own pain supressors that you won't realize how hurt you are) but later it will be swollen, painful, and bruised.

Homeopathy works!! And remember, as you read Holmes, that, at the time of his attack, the mainstream doctors regularly bled their patients, and they did not routinely clean or sterilize anything, and had no way of dealing with the wide-spread epidemics of Cholera that were rampant at the time. Homeopathic hospitals at the time routinely saved most of their cholera victims, while the mainstream hospitals lost most of theirs.

Also worthy of note--recently published research shows that there are more than 100,000 deaths each year resulting from the complications of prescribed medicines, in hospitals alone!

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 10:56 AM

Likewise. I can't explain why homeopathy works, but it works for me. I also can't explain why Bache Flower Remedies work, but they do. Especially Rescue Remedy. Even sceptics (like Curmudgeon) has had success with both.

Just my fraction of a buck's worth.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Jeri
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:05 AM

If I see a placebo-controlled double-blind study that says it works, I will believe it works.

It's pretty much proven that placebos even have some effect, so "well, it worked for me, and a lot of people I know" just doesn't cut it as proof. Still, in the extremely diluted dosages, it probably can't hurt anything except your wallet. Also, I'd agree with Les - if you can be fooled into believing a placebo will work, and it works because you believe it will, it's not a bad thing. I don't think there's a doctor on earth who doesn't believe a person's mind has a huge effect on his health.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 11:36 AM

two hundred years ago, who would have believed that an extract from a willow tree would cure headaches?

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: MMario
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 12:16 PM

many people. Willow bark infusions and teas have been used for pain for a long, long, long time.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: MMario
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 12:27 PM

oops! forgot what I was going to post. Do they really recommend poison ivy pills for sore throats?

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Grab
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 12:43 PM

The bumble-bee quote is a fallacy, Dave - a bumble-bee certainly can't fly according to the fixed-wing principles of flight (Bernoulli?), but since a bumble-bee never holds its wings fixed and glides, those principles don't apply. I think M.Ted's "100,000" quote was refuted by Wolfgang on an earlier thread as well - I'll try and find the article concerned if anyone's interested. But this is off-topic...

It's interesting to look at homeopathy as a historical artifact, but I'm sorry, I'm not a believer. Around the same time, the "potion of sympathy" (anyone read Longitude?), bleeding, blistering and various other remedies were considered effective, and alchemy was only just on the wane. Galvani had done experiments in "animal magnetism" and that was all the rage - ppl would sit in tubs of water with low electric currents flowing through them in the belief that it did them good. Mesmer "magnetised" a tree and ppl would hold ropes tied to the branches to make them better. It was another 30 years before the start of chemical element classification, and 70 years before Mendelev produced the Periodic Table. Pasteur wouldn't discover germs for another 30 years. Given the "state of the art" in science at the time (ie. almost complete ignorance), it's not too surprising that proponents of bleeding, blistering, electricity, etc had many claims that they could cure everything! If you don't know what you're doing, don't know what you're measuring, and don't know how to conduct experiments correctly, then there's no surprises when you get results which prove you were correct every time!

The point isn't just getting a result in a single double-blind experiment either - pure luck can get that. But getting results _consistently_ - that I'd like to see. The proof of something isn't when a single person produces a single test in the favour of a theory, it's when other ppl (especially ppl who don't believe in it!) can do the same test and get similar results.

For fun, try this link.

I should probably mention that I've tried homeopathic remedies for psoriasis and hayfever (off-the-shelf variety, though), and a friend tried it for ME (the full-on visit-an-expert expensive version). Neither of us got anything out of it.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Bert
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 02:01 PM

Another thing that confused scientists about bumble bees flight, was that measurements proved that it shouldn't be able to beat it's wings fast enough. The time taken for the up and down signals from the brain to the wings is too long. It was later discovered that bees have fibrillating wing muscles and it only takes a single 'start beating' signal and after that the muscles work on their own until a 'stop beting' signal is received.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 05:06 PM

One of the main things in homeopathy's favor, as far as I'm concerned, is at worst it does nothing. It doesn't cause any damage, which is more than I can say about allotropic medicine. Of course, I'm allergic to things like penicillan, various tetracyclines and miscellanous antibiotics. And I've ended up in a lot worse shape from "the wonders of modern medicine" and not from herbal or homeopathic remedies. As with anything, do your homework -- including when your doctor sends you to a pharmacy with a prescription.

Yet another fraction of a buck's worth.

Bat Goddess

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Nemesis
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 06:51 PM

Broken arms? Well, try Symphytum after the Arnica (Homepathic version of Comphrey - old country name being KNit Bone) My son was run over and taken to hospital, xrays showed a fractured ankle, bandaged up and sent home to return in a few days after the swelling to the Fracture clinic for plastering. Treated homeopathically, then re-xrayed - no fracture (yes it wasn't the other leg they'd x-rayed by mistake).

Fact: double blind tests here and in Canada have produced empiric data that patients who did not know that they were receiving healing, recovered quicker than other patients who were not given healing.

Fact: Surgeons now use techniques using maggots, leeches and honey (not all at the same time and for different reasons!)

I don't get off on crystals and I've met many a dodgy Grand Reiki Master without a Brownie Badge in First Aid to his name who's been "attuned" at vast expense let loose on the gullible public - but Homeopathy CAN work. I'm sorry the ME thing didn't produce instant results - but some friends lost their 17 year-old to a rare form of lung cancer and they acknowledge that her Homeopath bought her another 12 months and made the chemotherapy easier by potentising it as a remedy.

I think the thing with Homeopathy is that it doesn't always give the result looked for/expected - depending on the remedy (mental/physical). I took a psychological constitutional remedy a few years ago and the disfiguring warts on my hand (been there 12 years and starting to spread in quantum bounds) disappeared within 8 days. Which cheered me up no end! And have never reappeared.

Cheers HIlle

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 10 Apr 01 - 08:21 PM

Most homeopaths worldwide are fully credentialed M.D.s who went on to study and practice homeopathy. That might tell you something.

I'm not a homeopath but I've been a practicing pediatrician for 20 years, which is long enough to know how much I DON'T know about why people get sick and why they do or don't get better. Saying homeopathy is "just the placebo effect" is a non-answer. As doctors, we use the placebo effect all the time. Call it "laying on of hands", call it "confidence", call it "natural course of an illness", the plain fact is that if somebody thinks a particular treatment is going to make them better, it's more likely that it will. And there are MANY randomized controlled double-blind studies that have shown just that. And major academic medical centers, including Harvard Medical School, the University of Minnesota, and the University of Arizona, are exploring and researching what's become known as CAM, or "Complementary and Alternative Medicine', including homeopathy, herbalism, Chinese medicine, and the so-called "energy therapies", among others. They are using the same standards that are used to judge therapeutic methods in Western medicine, and they are finding a great deal of benefit. Which is no surprise, of course, to those people who have been using these systems successfully for centuries.

There's no question that if, heaven forbid, my spleen is ruptured or I have a life-threatening infection, I'm going to opt for the best of modern western medical technology. But I'm also going to hope that friends are praying for me, and I'm going to use meditation and imagery, and I'll try to find out what herbs or homeopathic remedies might help in addition. And I'll hope my doctors and all other healers remember the adage, "Primum non nocere": First, do no harm.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Nemesis
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 12:32 PM

Good post Mark,

"Primum non nocere" absolutely! Quite frankly, I have seen too many friends and family die (literally) because of the arrogance of the conventional medical establishment. Of course, I would be the first through the door in the circumstances you mention and would only consult an alternative practitioner after conventional methods.

I believe the BIG difference is (at least in UK) GPs give you 5 minutes, an alternative therapist should in theory be giving you an hour. And they (latter) listen!

I was with a friend when he died of acute pancreatitis at 38, after Casualty and his GP had both turned him away twice each with indigestion remedies, once after a minor heart attack, during the course of severe crippling stomach pains for 5 weeks.

I have personally known 2 people die of appendicitis/peritonitis because the hospital sent them home.

My Father died with Motor Neurone after the hospital where he was admitted with dehydration (it got him in the throat and he couldn't swallow) put him in a main ward, gave him a menu card! and then waited for the consultant to arrive - like he never did for 3 days by which time he was dead.

What makes me crossest is that conventional medicine takes away one's self-responsibility because they "know best" and won't listen to the obvious because it has been suggested by the patient - as if they know nothing about their own bodies

I could go on and but I might be getting off the thread.... Sorry

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: mousethief
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 01:21 PM

Homeopathy for the Voice: a hot cup of herbal tea with honey and lemon.

As for homeopathic "drugs": ARE there any double-blind studies that show they work? Nobody seems to have mentioned this yet. Probably just an oversight.

As for the placebo effect: Hey, if it works, it works. Most wart cures are placebos, and because warts eventually go away on their own, there's no knowing what WOULD have happened if you didn't try the cure. If I had an intractable problem which didn't respond to any proven therapy, I'd probably start trying alternative therapies too. And if one worked, I'd be pretty happy about it and probably tell all my friends, double-blind study or no. This is human nature.

What bugs me is when the rhetoric on either side gets so shrill that all you hear is tone of voice and not content.

Alex

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Robo
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:05 PM

If placebos come in cherry flavor I'd be willing to test-verify my life savers cure!

Rob-o

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: BRG
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:39 PM

Thanks for the words of wisdom, Mark and to all the other good posts. My wife would be heartened. She is studying to be a homeopath and rises at 5:00 am each day to get in a couple of hours of study before putting in a long day at the health food store she owns and operates. She is my hero.

I've had my doubts about homeopathy over the years and often get lost in my wife's explanations of same. But I have seen enough positive effects in my family (plus my own personal allopathic nightmare) to realize that homeopathy, as well as other altenative approaches, merit our attention.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Peg
Date: 11 Apr 01 - 07:54 PM

Kendall; do be sure to get total vocal rest for as long as you ca manage; and that means no whispering! (which can harm the voice more than speaking or singing).

I had a friend who lost her lovely classical singing voice for years due to vocal nodes; not until she got some total vocal rest for a few weeks did she start to heal...

If you have problems with repeated upper-respiratory infections; try tea tree oil. You can get it in any health food shop. Put a couple of drops in warm water and gargle with it twice a day. This is also excellent for oral hygiene in general and keeps any bacteria from entering the mouth that might exacerbate a sore throat, etc.

There might also be exercises you could learn from a vocal teacher that will help you gently get back to singing...

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:07 AM

Alex, the answer to your question is yes, there are scientific studies of homeopathic remedies. For example, a meta-analysis of Clinical trials of homeopathy was published in the British Medical Journal in 1991. (A meta-analysis is a review of a large number of clinical trials on a given topic in an attempt to arrive at a more scientifically reliable conclusion than could be obtained by any one trial.) In case the link doesn't work, the citation is: Kleijnen J, Knipschild P, et al., Clinical trials of homoeopathy. BritMedJ 302(1991):316-23. Most of the trials studied showed a positive effect, and none had a negative effect. And here is a site with a number of more recent clinical trials of homeopathy published in reputable medical journals, with links to more, all found through the PubMed service of the National Library of Medicine.

These studies use good scientific methods (admittedly, more so in recent years than in the past--but that's also true of some standard medical research). The results are often quite impressive, even though the underlying theory doesn't seem to make sense in the context of Western scientific medicine.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:12 AM

Oh, I should also have mentioned, in case you don't follow the link, that many of the more recent papers cited did adhere to the current scientific "gold standard" of randomized controlled double-blind studies, and they had positive results.

Mark

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Deni
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:21 AM

I took two of the bereavement-easer type homeopathic remedies and one to combat anziety, and they worked when nothing else did, including voice therapy, appointments with a throat specialist, relaxation and various other cures. (I s'pose you'll tell me I just needed time...but I still get anxiety, which doesn't feel like anxiety and it hits me in the throat as if someone was trying to strangle me. Perhaps it's my husband...

Well if it is and he ever succeeds, I told you so...

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: BEK
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 12:53 PM

Probably doesn't qualify as homeopathy. Something simpler our choir instructor used to have us do was suck on pieces of salted lemon. It generally restored all but the worst strains and it was pretty readily available even before contest.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: kendall
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 01:04 PM

Thanks Peg, whereas I live alone, I go for long periods of time without using my voice at all, so, I should think it gets plenty of rest. I'll try the tea tree oil.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Jingle
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 01:37 PM

The best cure I've ever found is something called Dr Sanderson's Throat Specific - you put some in hot water and gargle every hour. If you are very croaky, sip some too. It tastes revolting but it works. You can get it at old fashioned chemists.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: mousethief
Date: 12 Apr 01 - 02:00 PM

Mark, Thanks! That's the sort of thing I need to see to be mentally convinced of the efficacy of something. Emotionally convinced, of course, only takes a few anecdotes from people whom I trust to be reporting their history accurately.

Alex

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Deni
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 02:10 AM

Someone just told me that singers here use Rum & Shrub to bring tired voices back. Anyone tried it? What's it like? I know it isn't homeopathy but...

Deni

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: GUEST,vectis at work
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 05:15 AM

Rum and shrub works a treat, as does sloe gin. Parsons pills, which are argent neg?nig (sorry unsure) work magically at the end of a long session.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:15 AM

Mark Cohen: Most of the trials studied showed a positive effect, and none had a negative effect.

Mark, I followed your first link and found that a subgroup of studies showed no positive effects. As you surely know, 'no positive' includes both no effect and negative unless you have additional information. Do you have additional information from the original study or was the 'none had a negative effect' bit your creative interpretation?

I urge everyone to read what Mark has linked (it is short) in original and you'll also find sentences about the low quality of the studies involved and several more sentences that might make you less confident that we know already a lot.

For those who are interested in scientific research about homeopathy there are many more metaanalyses than the one Mark has linked to (I wonder by the way, what/who has forced them in that metaanalysis to write an erratum as you can see on the page linked to by Mark; can be anything from a minor error to a big blunder). Follow my link for a Review of 12 metaanalyses including the one Mark has mentioned. This way you get a broader database for a judgement. (no references there, deplorably).

Bat Goddess: One of the main things in homeopathy's favor, as far as I'm concerned, is at worst it does nothing.

For your own safety (and let's hope you'll never need this advice) you should know that you are wrong and in the worst case you could be dead wrong. There are documented cases in which patients have died or suffered harm unnecessarily when sole reliance upon alternative methods of treatment has prevented early detection or treatment of diseases which would have been easily treatable by evidence based medicine. Taking homeopathic medication does no harm (exception below) by itself, that's correct, the harm done can result from wrongly relying upon them too long.

More as a historical aside: In the times of Hahnemann, there were prescriptions with what we now consider very harmful doses of quicksilver in the undiluted parts of the homeopathic treatment. Of course, with a high dilution it doesn't matter. Today cases of treatments with medications that are undiluted are comparably rare but in this cases you should hope that your homeopathic doctor doesn't rely upon the original literature.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 06:29 AM

As for the argument that animals and children respond to placebo treatments: True but in most studies completely unconvincing since the owners/parents/caretakers had not been blinded. And if they aren't there are loads of alternative interpretations.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM

I think it ought to be pointed out that. apparently, significant numbers of the standard, conventional, treatments that are used by doctors and in hospitals have not been subjected to double-blind studies--

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 07:49 AM

M.Ted,

as far as I know in Germany double-blind studies are a necessary prerequisite for admittance of any conventional treatment (except in a test phase, of course). No successfull double-blind, no admittance. Of course I don't know about many other countries. Do you have a reference or a source for that statement?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Wolfgang
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 08:15 AM

Taking homeopathic medication does no harm (exception below) by itself, that's correct I wrote above. I'd like to correct myself. It may be right for a big majority of cases but in rare cases there seem to be exceptions.

Ernst, Edzard. 1996. Direct Risks Associated with Complementary Therapies. In E. Ernst (ed). Complementary Medicine: An Objective Appraisal. Butterworth, p. 113 (references in there) writes:

After repeated dilution's, varying concentrations of the original substance can still remain. Potentially toxic concentrations of arsenic (Kerr and Saryan, 1986) and cadmium (De Smet, 1992) have been found in homoeopathic preparations, and one case of an acute pancreatitis following the administration of a complex homoeopathic remedy (Kerr, 1986) has been reported. Low potency preparations can also cause allergic reactions: several such reports have been published (e.g. Van Ulsen, Stolz and Joost, 1988; Forsman, 1991). In view of such findings interactions with other treatments are conceivable in concomitant drug treatments, although there is no published evidence for or against this occurring.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 03:16 PM

Well--my doctor pointed out, when I asked him about a the justification for a certain set of procedures, pointed out that most procedures had not been subjected to this sort of testing--

Of course, in the US, the drug AZT and the therapies associated with it were introduced without testing--this was more extreme than usual, but, many drugs are introduced that have not had full double blind tests done for all the suggested uses--

Even if it is currently necessary for double-blind tests to be done for new therapies and procedures to be used in standard practice, it is not necessarily true that every procedure is used in standard practice has been subjected to that same testing, and I believe that this is what my doctor was talking about--

At any rate, standards vary from one country to the next--in the States, medical care is very expensive, and, although we are continually told that our health care system is the best in the world, most of us have rather tragic stories to tell about mistakes, sloppy diagnoses, and other sorts of medical negligence--there are many cases where doctors have continued to use outmoded, dangerous, treatments, when newer, safer procedures have long been common practice--

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: M.Ted
Date: 26 Jun 01 - 03:17 PM

Well--my doctor pointed out, when I asked him about a the justification for a certain set of procedures, pointed out that most procedures had not been subjected to this sort of testing--

Of course, in the US, the drug AZT and the therapies associated with it were introduced without testing--this was more extreme than usual, but, many drugs are introduced that have not had full double blind tests done for all the suggested uses--

Even if it is currently necessary for double-blind tests to be done for new therapies and procedures to be used in standard practice, it is not necessarily true that every procedure is used in standard practice has been subjected to that same testing, and I believe that this is what my doctor was talking about--

At any rate, standards vary from one country to the next--in the States, medical care is very expensive, and, although we are continually told that our health care system is the best in the world, most of us have rather tragic stories to tell about mistakes, sloppy diagnoses, and other sorts of medical negligence--there are many cases where doctors have continued to use outmoded, dangerous, treatments, when newer, safer procedures have long been common practice--

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Deni
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:28 AM

Sloe gin has to be neat, does it? I had some problems with a relaxed larynx and i was told to avoid alcohol, and drinks with caffeine and anything cold. but in my misspent youth, I used to drink Benedictine after a night screaming rock music. I certainly dulled the pain of a raw throat. Is that all the rum and Shrub and sloe Gin do?

genuinely interested from Devon

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 12:34 AM

Oh and Kendall, if laryngeal homeopathy doesn't work for ye, may I recommend laryngeal gynecology? It has a long history of anecdotal successes.

A

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: ollaimh
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:34 PM

i find the sugested treatment interesting and will try it.

i've found a few teas also sooth the throat, such as comfry, and mint, but i once was given a bitter tes that was the best i've ever tried but i don't remember what it was. does anyone hvae throat soothing tea suggestions.

by the way, the british royal family(hack spit) use homeopathy so lets hope it doesn't work. however the queen mom is one hundred years old, but then she scottish. scots live forever and hate every minute of it.

you may have guessed i'm a republican, but a canadian one, and out side of the french in canada there is no such general sentiment.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: kendall
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 07:45 PM

Seems to me that Big Chucks' 12 year old Jamisons did my voice some good.

Subject: RE: Homeopathy for the Voice
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 01 - 09:03 PM

Oh, Kendall!!!! A MINOR???!!!!

A