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Subject: Bells of Rhymney From: GUEST,Finn McCool Date: 10 Apr 01 - 10:21 AM Just what exactly is Pete Seeger doing to produce the awesome chords and riffs in his classic 12-string drop-D tuning version of Bells of Rhymney? Listening to the second, more percussive and driving, half of the song really gives you an idea of what a 12-string is capable of -- like opening up a Lamborghini on the Autobahn. --Finn |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney From: Anglo Date: 10 Apr 01 - 01:42 PM Pete's guitar tablature for the accompaniment is in his book "Where Have All The Flowers Gone?" available from Sing Out! (Though I don't know as playing it off the tab will make you sound that good). :-) |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: GUEST Date: 07 Nov 07 - 02:17 AM Something like this, but these chords are picked AND strummed. D D D D e|----------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| B|-10~~~~~--|-12~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-10~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-12-10-----------| G|-11~~~~~--|-11~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-11~~~~~~~~~~~~--|------12--11-----| D|-12~~~~~--|-12~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-12~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-------------12--| A|----------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| D|0---------|0----------------|0----------------|0----------------| G Em Edim7 Edim7 e|-7~~~~~~~~--|--7~~~/12~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~--| B|-8~~~~~~~~--|--8~~~/12~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~--| G|-7~~~~~~~~--|--9~~~/12~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~--| D|------------|-------14~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~--| A|------------|-----------------|-----------------|---------------| D|------------|-----------------|-----------------|---------------| (It's still brilliant to play) |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: GUEST Date: 07 Nov 07 - 02:18 AM Wow, that's not rally clear. It comes from this link: http://www.guitaretab.com/b/byrds/2819.html . |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Richard Bridge Date: 07 Nov 07 - 02:57 AM You can get a nice jangle without the drop D tuning by playing it in A A = 007650 G = 055430 (a sort of double G6 D = 200230 (D9) or 500775 E = 079900 You can put in a sort of shuffle between the A and G as the end of the word "me" approaches. |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: PoppaGator Date: 07 Nov 07 - 04:43 PM The only way to post tabs made out of text, as above, is to specify a non-variable-width font, e.g., a typewriter font like Courier. I think the html code is "t" ~ here's goes an attempt: ************ Something like this, but these chords are picked AND strummed. D D D D e|----------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| B|-10~~~~~--|-12~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-10~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-12-10-----------| G|-11~~~~~--|-11~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-11~~~~~~~~~~~~--|------12--11-----| D|-12~~~~~--|-12~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-12~~~~~~~~~~~~--|-------------12--| A|----------|-----------------|-----------------|-----------------| D|0---------|0----------------|0----------------|0----------------| G Em Edim7 Edim7 e|-7~~~~~~~~--|--7~~~/12~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~--| B|-8~~~~~~~~--|--8~~~/12~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~--| G|-7~~~~~~~~--|--9~~~/12~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--3~~~~~~~~~~--| D|------------|-------14~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~~~--|--2~~~~~~~~~~--| A|------------|-----------------|-----------------|---------------| D|------------|-----------------|-----------------|---------------| (It's still brilliant to play) *********************** Well, it's not "t" ~ I got the message "Your post contains a forbiddne HTML tag." I'll keep trying; if this ever actually posts, I will have discovered the code, and will tell you... (after a second try, this time successful:) IT'S DOUBLE T ~ TT ~ FOR "TELETYPE." |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Nov 07 - 05:18 PM As an interesting side note, the 12 string lick McGuinn played on his Rickenbacker for the Byrds version of this song was a direct steal of the George Harrison riff from "If I Needed Someone". He's the first to admit it. |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Murray MacLeod Date: 07 Nov 07 - 06:24 PM bit of a home-made video, but here is Roger McGuinn performing the Bells of Rhymney and the video does show enough of the guitar technique to make it worth watching |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 07 - 07:06 PM Roger McGuinn fingerpicks by holding a pick between his thumb and forefinger, and then using his middle and ring fingers (with fingerpicks) to play the upper strings. That's fingerpicking the hard way. Better to use a thumb pick and the index and middle fingers (with fingerpicks). The John Denver video is (I think) closer to what Pete is doing, particularly with the right hand. Good views of his right hand in action (builds up momentum, and then goes to beat hell!). Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Chris in Portland Date: 07 Nov 07 - 08:03 PM But use Roger's more correct pronunciation - should be "Hrum-ney" - right?? Chris (Welsh learner) |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Don Firth Date: 07 Nov 07 - 09:37 PM Right. I was focussing strictly on the guitar work. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Lonesome EJ Date: 08 Nov 07 - 03:04 AM Don You know Stringsinger taught McGuinn his 12 string style, right? ;>} |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Don Firth Date: 08 Nov 07 - 12:25 PM Maybe so. But what I said still stands. Glen Campbell played that way also. When I watched him on "The Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour," I thought, "Why?" He probably learned to play with a pick first, then decided he wanted to fingerpick, so he tried to adapt what he already did. But no matter how you slice it, that's the fingerpicking the hard way. :-/ Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Old Nick Date: 09 Nov 07 - 10:33 AM I'm sure I've heard Roger McGuin say that "If I needed someone" was based on his version of the Bells of Rhymney, rather than the other way round. I googled it and found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_I_Needed_Someone which seems to confirm it. There was a lot of cross fertilisation of ideas then as now of course so maybe memories have faded with time -and illegal substances! |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Greg B Date: 09 Nov 07 - 10:48 AM Then try on for size Pete's 'Living in the Country,' the tune which Leo Kottke has said inspired him to put down his trombone and to take up the 12-string. |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: GUEST,highlandman Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:18 AM >that's the fingerpicking the hard way. Not to me... if I want to play strict fingerstyle, I use nothing but fingers. But many times in a not-so-quiet environment, I find the fingers are loud enough but old "P" (does that stand for Phumb?) is dull-sounding. I never liked the feel of a thumb pick -- feels unstable to me -- so I got into the habit of flat-picking with thumb and forefinger holding the plectrum and the other three free-picking just to get a little more volume out of the guitar. If I needed even more I could go to cross-picking. The other thing I like about it is that you can switch from fingerstyle to flat-picking for a solo with no fuss. But now that I am usually playing amplified I am gravitating more and more to a pure fingerstyle technique. -Glenn |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: The Sandman Date: 09 Nov 07 - 11:20 AM Don Firth,The easiest way and best[imo] is to use the thumb and THREE fingers, each treblestring is covered by a finger.Dick Miles |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Don Firth Date: 09 Nov 07 - 12:23 PM Yes, Captain, that's what I do, being basically a classic guitarist (but not limiting the fingers to the top three strings--moving them to wherever needed). But for the "Freight Train" or "Railroad Bill" kind of alternating bass fingerpicking, I usually use thumb, index, and middle. Some folks use just thumb and index. Very busy. By the way, Highwayman, the "p" stands for "pulgar," which, I believe, is Spanish for "thumb." Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:06 PM I think most "flatpick and fingers" players have arrived at fingers from playing the plank (solid-body electric) with a flatpick, and there are some things you can do on one of those with a flatpick that you pretty well can't do with fingers or fingerpicks, so if there is to be crossover materialit has to leave the flatpick in place. |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: PoppaGator Date: 09 Nov 07 - 01:34 PM I'm pretty sure that Chet Atkins uses that flatpick-plus-fingers technique, and may have originated it. It's neither an easy technique nor a common one, but it seems to work very well for those who have chosen to master it. Starting out as a flatpicker, especially and electric guitar flatpicker, seems to be the key I can't imagine learning how to do it, but then I've been using the thumbpick-plus-two approach (as a strictly acoustic player) for so long that it has become second nature. It is true that you can't cross-pick with a thumbpick the way you can with a flatpick; indeed, you really can't "up-pick" at all with a thumbpick, even for a single note. I can achieve almost the same effect by alternating thumb and finger(s), but my approach to picking really does make the effect of speedy bluegrass-type flatpicking pretty much impossible. I am spending more and more of my "practice" (private) playing time barefingered, but still use the picks for performing (and to stay in practice for performing as well, of course). While I can go with either no-picks or all-picks, I can't balance the volume of pick-played bass strings with barefingered treble strings ~ but I know it's possible, I've seen it done often enough (although almost exclusively the electric instruments). Thumb-plus-three-fingers is basic classical-guitar technique. As a beginner (whose first guitar was a nylon-string model and who briefly took classical lessons), I briefly tried playing with three fingerpicks and a thumbpick after "graduating" to my steel string D-18, but soon abandoned use of the ring finger. It's pretty rare (in my experience) to see anyone using that many fingerpicks; "three-finger picking" (thumb plus two) is nearly universal among users of fingerpicks. Thumb-plus-one was/is pretty common among old-school hardcore blues players; it allows a slightly sharper, more aggressinve attack. On some numbers, I can temporarily become a two-finger picker, sticking to the thumb and index, but I don't ever remove the pick from my middle finger, even if I don't actually use it for a few measures, or even a few songs. |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Richard Bridge Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:09 PM Actually, I know a bloke who plays "Winding Boy" with that "double tap" into the first line by using a down and then an upstroke of the thumbpick. But it is not common. |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: Don Firth Date: 09 Nov 07 - 02:47 PM E-e-e-e-e-uhhh . . . Chet Atkins? I dunno. Back in the late 60s, he appeared on "The Glen Campbell Goodtime Hour" a number of times, and I had a chance to watch his hands up close, playing a variety of things. I never saw him use anything except meat and bone—just his bare fingers and fingernails. In fact, on one occasion, he came out wearing a tux and carrying a José Ramirez classic (same model Segovia was using at the time), sat down, propped his left foot on a footstool, rested the guitar on his left thigh, and proceeded to play Francisco Tárrega's Recuerdos de la Alhambra (tremolo study—played HERE by Pepe Romero), to the amazement of the audience. He played it as well as I've ever heard it played. So he knew his way around a classic guitar and the correct techniques for playing one. Lots of close-ups of his right hand. And as I say, I've never seen him use anything but his bare fingers and fingernails. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: GUEST,highlandman Date: 09 Nov 07 - 04:51 PM Pulgar = Thumb / Indice = Pointing Finger / Medio = Middle Finger / Anular = Ring Finger (Thanks, Don, I was trying to be a smarta$$ and apparently only the a$$ part came through.) Interesting that Chet Atkins was mentioned. I spent many years feeling guilty for using my left thumb to fret the bass string, only to be vindicated when I saw Mr. A doing so quite freely on his Gretsch. But while he may have had mastery of unorthodox techniques it was certainly not at the expense of his mastery of the orthodox. A case of "when you are a master, you can consider breaking the rules..." It's hard at this distance to sort out the influences that make me play the way I do, but I remember consciously trying to emulate guitarists of many different stripes when I was young. Evidently a bit of each of them stuck. Most of my early playing, PoppaGator, was acoustic, but I mis-spent many youthful hours thumping on a Telecaster, too. -Glenn |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: PoppaGator Date: 09 Nov 07 - 05:14 PM Gee, I thought I was right about Chet Atkins, but my memory may be failing me, and it's really some other iconic master whose playing I remember watching. Another practicioner of flatpick-plus-fingers is Jaime "Robbie" Robertson. Not necessarily all the time, but I have video footage that very clearly shows him playing this way on "King Harvest," as taped at Robbie's home in Woodstock NY back around 1968-70-ish. There was a "boxed set" of The Band released about two years ago with 5 CDs and one really nice DVD packaged within a big hardback book. |
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Subject: RE: Bells of Rhymney - guitar technique From: The Sandman Date: 09 Nov 07 - 06:38 PM I play all melody picking,Freight Train,Buckdancers Choice,whatever with three fingers. Nic Jones never used picks[Apart from a plastic thumb pick] of any description]and played with the his fingers not his nails. |
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