Thought for the Day April 14, 2001

Subject: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 10:45 AM

This weekend, for a change, we celebrate both Easter AND Passover; because both holidays are scheduled based on moon activity it is rather nice when they fall so close to each other; reminds us of our common ground.

Easter's name is said to come from Eostre (where we get the name Esther), a Teutonic goddess of spring. The trappings of Easter which have little or nothing to do with the Passion of Christ are symbols of her worship as a goddess of fertility and burgeoning spring: eggs, rabbits (the most fertile of god's creatures), lambs, flowers, new and colorful clothing (to reflect the new colors in the landscape)...all to honor the awakening of the land and the fecundity of its creatures, to rejoice in new life and the survival of the tribes and flocks from the harsh winter...

Last night my coven performed a ritual called The Rite of the Awakening; also scheduled to coincide with the first Full Moon after Spring Equinox (we actually were supoosed to do it last Friday and had to wait until last night). This is part of a larger cycle that culminates with the sacrifice of the Harvest Lord at Harvest Home in late autumn...next we will do a Rite of Sowing...followed by Rites of Seasoning, Good Gathering, and the Coming of Autumn...and the death of the young lord (who represents the potency and growth of summer)...

But for now, we celebrate the arrival of him, in his youth and splendor, as he escorts the maiden in seasonal courtship, and looks on as Mother (Demeter) and daughter (Persephone) are reunited for the next six months...the return of spring!

Happy Easter, Blessings at Passover, to one and all!

This pagan prosyletizi

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Amos
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 10:58 AM

Dance, my lady, dance! I love the vision of your whirlwind sisters courting the agrarian Mysteries under the moon and feeling the tide of seasons in their blood. Although there has been a lot of chatter hither and yon about how genuine the tracing is from modern wiccan to ancient one, I'd say it doesn't matter much -- the timelessness of the view doesn't depend on scholars or artifacts but on being in a place in the Universe that is in tune with time itself. So good on ya!

A

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 11:11 AM

Lovely words, yourself, Amos...

Many of the agrarian rites practiced by "Wiccans" and modern witches have their basis in the writings of J. G. Frazer, whose book The Golden Bough offered an overview of the fertility, agricultural, hunting, magical and other rites of many cultures. His chapters on some of the rites practiced in ancient Britain were the basis for the wonderful film The Wicker Man. His research has been denigrated by many scholars since...as has the work of poet Robert Graves, whose book The Golden Bough also influenced many a modern witch and Celtic pagan...

The point seems to be that to emulate our ancestors in this modern world, we must be able to imagine how they felt as they did these things, since we have no way of truly knowing...and to imbue these rites with our own significance, we must accept that we don't know everything about them. Perhaps that's why they are sometimes called "mystery plays".

Works for me.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 02:00 PM

I would be very surprised if the OHGerman Eostre and Esther (from the Book of Esther) had anything in common. Not that I would mind being surprised, but it does seem implausible.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: mousethief
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 02:25 PM

Not sure why images of life -- especially new life, or life renewed, have nothing to do with Christ's Resurrection. You have to really squint to miss the connection.

That said, and I've said this before in other threads, we (Christians) have stolen a lot from the pagans in terms of our celebrations and worship. We owe you a debt of gratitude. Thank you, pagans!

Alex

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 04:37 PM

Yes, we do owe most of it to the pagans, thank you all, except for the bloody Easter Bunny, you can have that back!!!

The bunny is actually the hare, that frisky little beast that is presently making it's presence felt up and down the land, by indulging in it's courting battles, the mad March hare..... dancing in the light of the new moon. Rather that picture than the stupid pink thing that gives out eggs to all and sundry, just so long as they are blonde, blue-eyed and sweet.

LTS Who is still blonde and blue(ish) eyed, but was NEVER sweet.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:09 PM

Lovely, again, Peg and right up my *alley*, so to speak.:-) Merry Meet!

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 05:38 PM

You can throw Margaret Murray's witchcraft books in the trash can, too. I never got a book by a folklorist I saw noted on a website. It was entitled 'Who Believed in Margaret Murray, and Why?'

coven was just an old word for a company or group and had nothing to do with witches. A succint criticism I saw recently was that Margaret Murray showed that people believed in witches, but failed to show there were any.

Is that what this weekend is all about? I worked from 4 to 10 PM Thursday (with, among others two folkies) setting up a church's Palestinian Dinner (Passover Seder is another church's name for it). [One of the minsters there also sings lots of folk songs, but mostly to youth groups]. It'll probably be left over lamb again tonight, but I'm not complaning.

Who shares the Hades bed when Persephone's away?

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 08:08 PM

Margaret Murray may have had questionable research standards, but she is to be commended for opening a whole line of enquiry in an exciting way that had scholasr and laypersons alike scratching their heads and arguing over whether what she had to say might be true...

Though lambasted by her contemporaries, modern scholars acknowledge she is an important folklore figure in the quest to understand the roots of modern witchcraft...

BTW, the last line of my post was supposed to read:

This pagan prosyletizing brought to you by Peg.

;)

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: RichM
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:28 PM

You may choose to believe what you will. That Margaret Murray "proved" there are *no* witches might satisfy some people.

For myself, having grown up with both a mother who is and a grandmother who was an awesome witch, I don't need scholarly proof. Like the air I breathe without seeing it, I know its there. Nothing against christians, I accept them too ;)

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:30 PM

Rich,

I don't thk Margaret Murray "proved" that; quite the opposite!

Real witchcraft is natural as you say! I would be interetsed in hearing of your childhood memories of your mum and grandmum...

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: GUEST,Seth from CHina
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:34 PM

Didn't Woody Guthrie start a song with the line" On the 14th day of April....."

Seth

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: RichM
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:51 PM

You're right, Peg. On re-reading I realized someone else used Margaret Murray's observations for their own conclusions.

Thanks for the clarification.

And Liz: You're right about the march hare-- but the E-Bunny is still welcome here, as long as it brings chocolate :) Rich

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 14 Apr 01 - 09:59 PM

There was half-price Easter candy at the grocery store. I resisted buying any! Do I get some chocolate as a reward? ;0

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Gypsy
Date: 15 Apr 01 - 12:27 AM

Peg, thank you for sharing. I really enjoyed the imagery from your post. yes, i am Christian, but firmly believe that there is room for all, and we all have basically the same motives. Just different ways of expression.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Hollowfox
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM

Peter T, the Esther of the Bible had the Hebrew name of Hadassah, but she lived during the Babylonian captivity, so she was known by her non-Hebrew name Esther (meaning "star", I'd venture it's a variant of "Ishtar") during the mandatory kingdom-wide audition for queen.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peter T.
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 11:50 AM

Well, it's Astarte.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 12:33 PM

I would appreciate any help in corroborating a tale told by Margaret Murray (I lent someone my copy of her book and never got it back, and don't know which of her's it's in).

She said that as King James was dying in 1625 ('Encyclopedia Brittanica' 2 places) that the wife of the Duke of Buckingham cast spells over him in an effort to prolong his life. A recent book on Royal Anecdotes doesn't mention it.

Bewitched-to-witch can be found in several old tales and ballads, but if Margaret Murray is correct we apparently have a real case. Before she married Buckingham she was Katherine Manners, and the tale of her bewitchment in 1619 at the hands of the Flowers is given in the broadside ballad listed at ZN2099 in the broadside ballad index on my website. It's also recounted in many books on the subject of witchcraft. R. H. Robbins in 'The Encyclopedia of Wichcraft and Demonology' (at 'Flower') cites another publication of 1619 concerning the witchcraft case aainst the Flower women ('Wonderful Discovery', printed by G. Eld for I. Barnes [can't remember where I found out the printers.])

Note also the incongrous turnabout. James, before he became king of England he gave the toll-booth speech of June 7, 1591 (quoted by Robbins at 'James') and wrote 'Demonology' in 1597, advocating severe measures against those practicing witchcraft. [But Robbins has James I dying in 1628.] [If you're interested in Robin Hood or King Arthur you might like to vist the Robbins Library at www.lib.rochester.edu (or Google on 'Robbins Rochester'). Click on Robin Hood Project or Camelot Project.]

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:21 PM

I will try to look into that Bruce...

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:22 PM

I will try to look into that Bruce...

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Peg
Date: 17 Apr 01 - 08:24 PM

I will try to look into that Bruce...

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 03:56 PM

To celebrate, I put on my cloak of invisibility and battled 20 orcs...I thought I had a good chance of winning cause I had a strength = 16 and dexterity = 17

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: GUEST,#1
Date: 18 Apr 01 - 09:46 PM

Seen the picture of that neat looking babe in 'Angelina and the Orc'? Nautghty orc wants to eat her, but that's not what I'd do to her.

Subject: RE: Thought for the Day April 14, 2001
From: Robo
Date: 19 Apr 01 - 12:18 AM

Aye, the 14th of April . . . Lincoln is shot, the Titanic strikes ice . . . and Rob-o is introduced to the world!

--Me