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Quebec City Protest of Free Trade.
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Subject: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:21 PM As most of us probably know, the "Summit of The Americas" (minus Cuba) is taking place in Quebec City this weekend. The numbers of protesters seems to be growing and apparently last night's first meeting was delayed by an hour or so. The newspapers are running pictures and descriptions that seem quite similar to those familiar ones from Seattle. Lots of tear gas, anger, and the kind of determination that makes you realize that the sixties style of activism can renew itself when people get pissed off enough. Our friend Marilyn has been making regular reports through CityTV, and was coughing a bit from the tear gas. My memory goes back to that absolutely horrid film footage from a while ago of cops RUBBING pepper-spray into young protesters' eyes. That was the angriest I've ever been in my life. Do any Mudcatters have friends who've gone to Quebec this weekend? |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Big Mick Date: 21 Apr 01 - 01:56 PM Actually, Rick, I was asked to attend but had other committments. One of the trade groups I am a delegate to has a number of people there. I will get a full report in the next month, I am sure....... Mick |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: RichM Date: 21 Apr 01 - 04:43 PM In Memory of Canadian Democracy 1867-2001. Born: Charlottetown, Prince Edward Island, 1867. Died: Quebec City, Quebec, 2001. :( |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Rick Fielding Date: 21 Apr 01 - 05:26 PM I think even if I'd been pro-status quo all my life, the sight of those kids trying to rinse the gas from their eyes would make me question at least SOME of my values. I've become pretty cynical over the years but this is pretty energizing. Kudos for Canadian television for not censoring anything. The talking heads are trying to maintain a "mainstream professional" approach, but you can see that they're no fans of cops in riot gear. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Apr 01 - 05:55 PM I had way too much time to watch this during the morning between tests at the hospital. As is my natural tendency, I saw a bit of humor in some of our recent Canadian threads.........but there is no joke to be made here. I fear that all protest has become so violent and I fear that the violence is now viewed as necessity by all involved. Odd Rick, I find it both energizing and depressing at the same time and it leaves me with a peculiar kind of angst. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: simon-pierre Date: 21 Apr 01 - 06:03 PM As I lived in Québec, I was there last night with maybe 4000 persons. It was relatively pacific, until some people tried to shut down the wall, as they did in the afternoon, but they failed this time. After that, it was gas, gas and gas. Despite of that, the atmosphere was almost cool, between fiesta and rage. Today, I was at the big walk, very pacific, organized by the unions and other group. There was between 30000 and 60000 persons, depending where you take your information (!). But in the old city, many thousands people continued to protest under the gas, and it seems not so cool today. They closed the Congress Center for the second time, a little victory. All this must not cover the message: we do not want the FTAA - as stated the People Summit of America, who closed yesterday. It's just a weekend, but the work remains very big, and must be done after the Summit, with everyone. This site will direct you to some information and others site written in a better english... Simon-Pierre |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Mark Cohen Date: 21 Apr 01 - 06:08 PM For some background (admittedly one-sided but nonetheless chilling even if only part of it is true), try this article on The Quebec Wall. I had my own chance to tangle with a small part of the agro-industrial complex a couple of years ago when my ex-wife and I helped to block the construction of a cobalt-60 powered food irradiation facility on this highly seismically active island. We were met with vituperative slander in the newspapers, death threats against our children, and other pleasant stuff. It's difficult to talk about this without sounding like a crazed conspiracy theorist. The problem is, the conspiracy is really out there, and it's winning. And to pacify those who think this kind of discussion doesn't belong on a pristine folk music site (as if folk music has nothing to do with the real world...), I refer you to Si Kahn's song, "Who's Watchin' the Man Who's Watchin' the Man Who's Watchin' Me?" (Sorry, but some of the recent "Guest" comments have just finally pissed off even this even-tempered island boy.) Aloha, Mark |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,sophocleese Date: 22 Apr 01 - 12:34 AM Thanks Rick for starting this thread. I haven't heard any news today as I've been mewed up in a conference all day. My sleeping quarters while in Toronto for the weekend are my brother's while he is in Quebec. I'm too wiped at the moment to think much except that if I wasn't at the conference I'd be at the summit. I became a Raging Granny on Tuesday in a small march on our local MP's office as we supported a highschool student delivering a petition arguing against the FTAA. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: simon-pierre Date: 22 Apr 01 - 12:37 AM I'm "back from the front", to speak like they do at television... I returned there to see a friend who lives in the "hot quarter", but it was a mistake. They shot tear gas since 12h00 PM, and twelve hours later it's not finished. Several thousands people, who mostly have gas masks, still resist, so I don't understand why the police is shooting even more gas - you cannot breathe in a whole quarter. Residents need googles to go outside. It must be criminal. I didn't go where I wanted to - I just went to the closest friend, crying and coughing, wondering how to get back home. We heard helicopters and shootings, while outside some little fires burned, and always anti-riot tear gas. The 10h00 pm o'clock news were revolting. They presented the fighting outside, and then what happened inside the wall, with the presidents and their clique, completely disconnected of what was going outside. They had a "gala" tonight, where big-shot canadians industrials were also invited - but not the media!!! So we cannot know who were those happy few priveliged who did exactly what we are fighting. The wierdest thing is that they kidnapped Jaggi Singh, who belongs to this organisation I think. Hell! What's that country, were you can be kidnapped by the police when you're not saying what they want??? (for more information, you can watch this site again - there's at least a text in french).
I'm happy of the large activism that rose, but this night it was too much. Tomorrow, I'll wash the dish and listen to folk music. Simon-Pierre |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Apr 01 - 12:40 AM Disturbing report S-P....but thanks for bringing it here. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,sophocleese Date: 22 Apr 01 - 12:53 AM Thanks simon-pierre for letting us know. I'm a little worried about my brother but hope to hear from him tomorrow. I felt sick yesterday when I first heard about the tear gas and I feel numb now. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: SeanM Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:54 AM I've always thought of tear-gas as the true 'riot gas'. Once the police fire it, no matter how peaceful things were before, you've got a riot. One thing that worries me - these are NOT seasoned troops who are trained in minimal force dispersal. I'm basing that partially off the media, partially off of their technique; the troops are low-arcing the teargas, which lets the targets pick up the unexploded canisters and return them to sender. If these people are that inexperienced, I truly worry that someone will panick and start using live ammo... Good luck to those who have actually thought about their message and wish to make a point. For those only there to cause trouble, I hope they rot in the cells... "But does is profit him, the right to be born, if he suffers the loss of liberty. Laws were made for people and the law can never scorn the right of a man to be free. We are the people and we shall overcome." M
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: DougR Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:40 AM So why are so many of you opposed to free trade? Don't understand, but willing to listen. Is the discontent on the part of Mudcatters due to opposition to free trade, or the treatment of those opposed to it? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,Spike Date: 22 Apr 01 - 03:23 AM The older I get the harder it is to see things in black and white. I belong to a tradition which donates to international relief, and development in third-world countries. Why shouldn't NAFTA and other such antidotes to economic protectionism not be applied? We became outraged when Japan employed excise taxes to block American goods, and we objected strenuously. When we object to free trade, we defend the economic barriers which our country has traditionally erected to bar foreign goods from sale in our country. When we do this we forget the lessons of the French Revolution and others in which the impoverished population rose in revolt and destroyed the oppressors. We live in a world community. We can't continue as economic vampires and survive. By using protectionism, WE are the oppressors. It appears "We have met the enemy, and they are us."--Walt Kelly |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,SeanM, lost cookie Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:10 AM My personal gripe with the current meeting is the general apparent lack of concern over the realities they are creating, beyond the effect it will have on the corporate world. I am by no means against "free trade", merely against the unreasonable destruction of environmental and humanistic elements of the countries it occurs in. In this matter, I see it as an outgrowth of the movements in the original 'industrial revolution' that resulted in minimum wages and certain quality of worker life and saftey issues - a battle that is by no means over, and by no means futile. There is such a thing as 'sustainable development', and yes, I fully believe that "corporate profits and success" and "environmental and humanistic concerns" are not mutually exclusive... for this, I applaud some of the protest movements who are trying to find a middle ground - between the monolithic policy wrangling of the "WTO" crowd and the luddites who demand a return to bearskins and flint spears (to cut the broccoli with, I guess). *sigh*. Who knows? I'm lost. And at this point, I think the image that is being portrayed is more important to the 'general public' than the reality. Icky. M |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Owlkat Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:47 AM Hi, There are some significant problems with what is referred to as "Free Trade", as percieved by those who don't live in the USA. First, NAFTA has been mostly put together by American lawyers and legislators with the commercial, legal, and economic bias expected. The wording of the agreements benefit the US the most, and Washington has made extensive use of trade sanctions, threatened and actual legal actions to achieve dominance of American interests over those of other smaller countries. For example, Canadian trade with Cuba has produced a non-stop stream of American legislation threatening us with sanctions if we continue autonomously, to create our own international trade relations free of American interference. Meanwhile Washington continues to trade with and fund some of the most obscenely dictatorial and repressive governments around the globe. Second, NAFTA strips governments of the autonomy needed to protect the rights of a country's citizens.For example, the agreements grant American companies the right to sue foreign governments for ANY actions taken which could be construed as being detrimental to the earnings of those companies. Translated into reality, an American company in Canada which produces toxic waste and dumps it in the local water supply can successfully sue the Canadian government if complying with environmental standards under Canadian regulations cuts into their profits. Third, the only country in the Americas supplying the US with the majority of exports is Canada; most of the other nations in the Americas do the vast majority of trade with the rest of the world. NAFTA is being used as a lever to force them to redirect their trade into the US. Fourth, NAFTA, in the purest sense of capitalism, commidifies EVERY profitable enterprise. Everything is for sale, including all raw materials, water, lumber, real estate, culture, and the media to name a few things, and, I might add, at a price set in Washington. Fifth, NAFTA encourages runaway industries that locate where the labour is un-unionized and cheap, where safety and environmental standards are minimal to non-existant, and where usually the Government is in the pocket of the ruling elite industrialists. This guarantees disenfranchisement of rights of the people for any redress or addressing of problems caused by foreign-owned industry. The US has got much industrial power, and a large and well equipped army, with the capability and the will to use nuclear weapons. This, coupled with an aggressive big stick approach to diplomacy has established it as a major imperialist culture in the 21st century. The WTO summit in Quebec City is open and answerable only to government heads, and industrial friends of those government. They're not listening to the people nor do they care. As Vicente Fox said, "Protesters don't supply jobs to anybody." And that's all that matters. So, there you go. I agree trade is important, and international trade can be a good thing. But not decided in secret, not administered at the point of a gun, and not acheived by enslavement of foreign national autonomy for only American political and industrial gain. Happy Sunday Owl. These are some of the reasons why NAFTA is scarey, and why people are protesting |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: MandolinPaul Date: 22 Apr 01 - 07:57 AM One thing that is really down-played in the news is that tens of thousands of the protesters are protesting peacefully, and being treated with respect by the police. We often tend to demonize the police when we hear about the frequent abuses of power and people, but we need to remember that there are many more good officers than bad ones.
One picture I saw on the news was of four young guys holding onto a steel fence, and charging at a line of twenty police officers in full riot gear; the guy on the end was swing a broomstick over his head. #1 What do they think will happen when they reach the police? #2 If that line of police officers wasn't there, who would stop these kids from attacking the delegates? Some of you may say that the presence of these officers incites such violence, but I'm not convinced.
Before we assume that the police are totally corrupt, we need to think about who we would call if people were storming our house in this manner.
Not ALL forms of protest are good ones. I applaud all of the people who are protesting peacefully. Paul |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,willie-o Date: 22 Apr 01 - 08:38 AM weyyyll Paul, the teargas is not at all discriminatory. It's all originating from one side and all the peaceful protesters and their kids are on the other side...including a bunch of my friends and neighbours. on my way to work this a.m. I heard a dumb radio report that explained authoritatively that 'police were forced to use tear gas, water cannons and plastic bullets against demonstrators'. Yeah, right. They were forced to shoot at them, and the huge quantities of teargas they are sending indiscriminately are 'an absolute necessity' to maintain order. This weekends' events are difficult to take in...for latest bulletins, start at indymedia.org. Bookmark for continuing updates. W-O
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: RichM Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:55 AM George Bush is touting Freedom for all, on CBC radio this morning as I type. Vicente Fox says protesters don't make jobs. Jean Chretien the shameful so-called leader of Canada says he DID consult with the people before the summit-strangely he didn't communicate any of the secret proposals to me! All in all, a shameful display of force, and dictatorial repression. I am distressed and angry. Doesn't this government realize that all the young people at the demonstrations have family and friends at home? We WILL all remember Jean Chretien and his Liberal bastards. In spite of the repression shown here and previously in Seattle, we are all moving inevitably toward a total re-examination of the democratic model of governing. Electing a dictatorship every four or five years is an outdated model for citizenship. Later today, I'll feel better. I'll play at my favorite gig once again for the good people of St Vincent's Hospital, a chronic care facility for the severely disabled. Have a good Sunday, all. Rich McCarthy |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 Apr 01 - 11:35 AM Hi Doug. I'm sure that many here can explain the problems with "Free Trade" better than I can. I've followed this issue pretty closely for a number of years, and I tend to try and boil things down to some pretty simple equations. The way I read it, the nomenclature itself distorts the issue. "Free Trade" sounds fair and equitable, and at the very least, doesn't have the "fear factor" built in that terms like "Gun Control", "abortion rights", "Death Penalty" etc. do. However, there are so many crucial and potentially disastrous results connected to this issue, that it draws a wide variety of interested groups. Taking just one of folks' concerns who've been the victims of socalled "free trade".... Many many jobs have been lost. They've flown (very far) South, where safety issues, and living wages are not Government priority. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,Old Folkie Date: 22 Apr 01 - 11:44 AM It's interesting to notice how the left and the right have reversed positions. Back in my day, Pete, Woody, Lee and Cisco were singing about one world/no borders. That was the left. The right was protectionist and believed in closed borders. Nowadays, it looks like its just the opposite.
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: simon-pierre Date: 22 Apr 01 - 01:48 PM To have my position on FTAA, read carefully again what Owlkak said, and specificly his fouth and fifth point. For the lost of autonomy of govenements, check the FTAA chapter on Investment at wtowatch. Also, keep in mind that these texts remains officially unpublic. They were secret, and then finally they accpept to publish them, but AFTER the summit, pretexting that they were not translated in french and portugese yet!!! As an activist said, we would have take them in chinese, these texts. So our goverments were about to negociate in secret a Free trade agreement that was not known from the public, behind a 4 km wall. Something was wrong... Being agaist FTAA is not being for closed borders or against "globalisation", whatever this word means. It's just refusing that investors and businessmen makes the law in our countries. Refusing to sell our public education, health care, culture industries, natural ressources and even our water, to private industries. Refusing to accept to be judge by another law court in another country. That's why we protest. This will not happen. We protested under the banner "Another world is possible", and we hope that this mobilisation will bring another continental solidarity. For more information, please check this out. And for the police... All the gas they shoot was clearly an attempt to shut down the protest, and not to arrest the so-called "trouble makers", who remains mostly in liberty. There was several thousands peacefully demonstrators who saw their freedom of speech bullied. A friend of mine did a sit-in in the street yesterday, with maybe a hundred peoples, including the NDP deputy Svend Robinson. They were shouting "La police, assis!" ("policemen, sit down"!!), and they were keeping away "trouble makers". Despite of that, after a certain time, the police finally gas them, and my friend been injuried by a rubber ammunition. He is ok, but it's absolutely incredible - they gased a deputy!! This is shamefull. I don't know what's going on actually, but I guess it might be calm, cause people, including me, are tired, and the weather is not so good. But I still hear the helicopters as I'm typing this. Tomorrow it will be finished, and my old city will return to it's calm and quiet peace. But the work will remains. People's Summit challenge governments to hold a continental Referendum about the FTAA, and they're talking about a day of strike for the First oy may 2002. Stay tuned!
Simon-Pierre |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: MAV Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:15 PM The police were charged with the task of providing security for the President of the US, Jack Cretin and other western hemisphere heads of state.
The communist rioters are damn lucky the police were feeling benevolent and only used tear gas (the poor babies) and water cannons on them (they probably needed a shower anyway).
From the Toronto Sun:
CBC's Newsworld provided viewers with the best vantage point of all -- a high, stationary camera overlooking the street where the demonstrators on Friday, without any prior provocation, first breached the temporary security barrier -- sections of chain-link fence with concrete bases.............
For anyone watching, the conclusion was inescapable -- the rioters had started the confrontation and the police had responded with only the force necessary to prevent a breaching of their line, which would have clearly resulted in chaos given the violence of the rioters.... Again and again these spokesmen claimed the police had started the confrontation and had over-reacted, when anyone who had watched the event unfold knew the exact opposite was true.............
That first unprovoked clash by the rioters against the police set the stage for the rest of the weekend and totally justified yesterday's police actions.
Once the rioters showed on Friday that they could not be trusted -- despite repeated assurances from anti-Summit leaders that protesters wanted to make their objections to globalization and free trade peacefully and without violence -- the die was cast..............
The rioters were the culprits.
The police deserve praise for a job well done.
The REAL meaning of "Working Families"
They also have a big May Day Protest planned across USA/world.
mav out
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 01 - 02:54 PM GASSED TODAY(Gassed Last Night)
Gassed today, and gassed the day before.
They're warning us, they're warning us.
On the news last night and again the night before.
They're over us, they're over us. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Penny S. Date: 22 Apr 01 - 03:10 PM With regard to the laws which allow a government to be sued if its environmental laws inhibit American profit - how would this be enforced if the government decides not to be bound by a treaty, and does not pay? A common thing with governments. Does the American constitution allow the military to go to war to enforce recalcitrant governments to pay over their taxpayers' money to American corporations? Penny |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: flattop Date: 22 Apr 01 - 03:41 PM No self-respecting human being would quote the Toronto Sun, MAV. It's not a proper newspaper, it's a joke. If you took the brains of all their reporters and put them in a fishbowl, you'd probably find fewer IQs than you'd find in the head of a below average blockhead politician like George Bush. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: MAV Date: 22 Apr 01 - 03:53 PM Flattop,
No self-respecting human being would quote the Toronto Sun, MAV. It's not a proper newspaper, it's a joke
The New York Times (mouthpiece for the DNC) which is the talking points for all the lazy liberal media outlets in the US is also a joke.
But unlike them, the SUN reported the truth.
Are you implying that the communist rioteers first checked to see if it was ok to violate the perimeter of the secured area?
Perhaps your tv was not operating properly when the communist dupes pulled down the chain link fence and the 100s of police stepped in to fill the breach against 1000s of organized so-called anarchists (what an oxymoron)
You did see the communist flags did you not?
mav out
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,VAM Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:22 PM But unlike them, the SUN reported the truth. vam over & out |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:30 PM GUEST VAM,
I'm still in the process of trying to form some opinions about all of this. Do you think posts like yours are going to be much help to people like me? Or do you think posts like that one might possibly alienate me from your point of view?
When I hear language like "fuckwit", instead of actual discussion, I feel inclined to not take the one using that sort of tactic very seriously. Carol |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:51 PM an interesting quote from a world leading proponent of free trade just quoted on CBC's Cross Country Check-Up....."There is a surplus of democracy in the world that is interfering with the free movement of capital".....right... |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: flattop Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:52 PM I didn't quote The New York Times, MAV. However, if I did, I would quote it knowing that most people, whatever their Weltanschauung, would put it on their list of world class newspapers. They'd probably put it a few spots behind The Times of India, but they'd put it on their world class newspaper list nonetheless. On the other hand, people with good taste would be ashamed to let their dog shit on a copy of the Toronto Sun. If you have an intelligent idea, and I doubt it, you should be able to express it yourself in less than a half page without grasping at gutter journalism. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,VAM Date: 22 Apr 01 - 04:56 PM That's really quote amusing, Komrade Karol, as MAV would say. Go back and read his posts, apply the same criteria vis a vis name-calling, offensive language, childish oversize letters, puerile scatological humor etc, then tell us why posts like his do not seem to alienate you from his point of view- whatever it is. Kordially yours, vam over & out |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 05:07 PM Well GUEST VAM, you shouldn't assume that everyone who reads this thread has also read the threads to which you refer. As it happens, I have read some of them, and I have seen a vast improvement in MAV's debate tactics over the past few weeks.
However, if your real agenda is to promote your point of view, rather than just have a mud slinging event, you might want to consider the impact your words in this thread might be having on those who, like me, are still forming opinions, but who might not be familiar with MAV from any other context. Carol |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 05:13 PM ...and, I genuinly want to learn what people on both sides of the debate have to say. I don't learn anything from personal attacks. I can only learn about issues when the discussion is about issues. Carol |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 Apr 01 - 05:24 PM Saw a clip with Svend Robinson (Canada's only openly Gay Member of Parliament) looking a bit shaky after taking a rubber bullet in the leg. Being the long time activist he is, I doubt that much shocks him, but he seemed genuinely surprised that the RCMP had resorted to that. Huge surprise to see Sinclair Stephens (former Conservative big-shot) marching, and being so supportive of the protesters. There's no question that a great many "mainstream" folks are pretty ticked off, and making their voices heard. Something else that warmed my heart was that THE ENTIRE NDP CAUCUS was out marching. This might help in restoring some of the broken trust between them and Canadian Labour. One interesting little result of the constant TV coverage (on CBC news) this week is that ol' Fidel is probably gonna rake in quite a few Canadian Tourist dollars, that might have gone to Mexico or the Carribean in the upcoming months. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: MAV Date: 22 Apr 01 - 05:26 PM Dear VAM, Like I said, you could have seen it yourself on either the Communist News Network (CNN) or Factual Observations Expressed (FOX).
I'm sure they have archives. The cops just stood there and took it.
They could have called in the military. (Who break things and kill people)
What a clever handle spaw.
mav out PS. Had I mentioned they were COMMUNISTS??? |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: DougR Date: 22 Apr 01 - 05:39 PM I'm with you, CarolC. I do want to know more about this; particularly why those who oppose free trade do so. There have been some good posts. Owl wrote his views very succinctly, I thought. The attack messages do little to claify the situation, and only prove that the writer knows some provocative words. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,kendall Date: 22 Apr 01 - 06:07 PM There are many facets to this problem, but, I can tell you one thing. Nothing scares the ruling elite like mob violence. The thing is, we in the USA have lived quite high off the hog for many years. The combination of demanding unions and corporate greed have raised our standard of living way above where it should be, and now, it is slipping. I feel for the poor bastard who used to work for Briggs & Stratton, Caterpillar, Generous Motors etc, their jobs went south. Why ? so the friggin' money grubbing corporations can make more profit, that why! If the stansard of living in Mexico was rising, and eventually, we were all in the same boat, that would be ok. But, it's not happening. Our manufacturing base has gone south, and although there are more jobs in Mexico, they still are no where near what we had for income because of the "bottom line". GREED!! The love of money is the root of all evil. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 06:17 PM SeanM said...
There is such a thing as 'sustainable development', and yes, I fully believe that "corporate profits and success" and "environmental and humanistic concerns" are not mutually exclusive... I would love to hear more about that. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: MAV Date: 22 Apr 01 - 06:43 PM Folks,
Manufacturing in the US is not just merely dead, it is most sincerely dead.
Why did the development of economic freedom in the third world pull most of the unskilled labor jobs out of the US?
The evil twins, mortal enemies of business;
High Taxes! and High Labor!, both of which increase the bottom line and the cost to comsumers.
As the third world are wont to say:
mav out |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST,VAM Date: 22 Apr 01 - 06:53 PM Right you are, Karol THIS is a VAST improvement for the arrogant little gobshite. Before you cannonize the little turd,go read ALL the posts, not just SOME of them and try forming an opinion from a complete factual basis. You truly want to learn about the sham of 'Free Trade' and the 'benefits' of globalization? Do yourself a favor: log off the Internet, shut down the computer, and take yourself to the library and do some serious reading from reliable sources, instead of wasting your time with garbage posted by morons. vam over & out roger wilco 10-4, good buddy. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 07:07 PM I don't need to do that VAM. I can listen to public radio and watch public television. And read what people have to say here. And MAV's previous posts are not particularly relevant to this discussion. His posts to this discussion are relevant to this discussion. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 07:40 PM Oohhh... I get it. I'm a little slow on the uptake today, VAM. I just checked out your link.
There's nothing in that post that is any more offensive than the kind of stuff I saw flying about here before MAV even started posting to the Mudcat. And flung about by some pretty well known Mudcatters, too. In fact I think it's quite a bit less offensive. Obnoxious, yes, but nowhere near as offensive as 'fuckwit' and 'gobshite'. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: GUEST Date: 22 Apr 01 - 08:27 PM I don't need to do that VAM. You most assuredly do, if you wish to know what you're talking about. If you wish to remain poorly prepared and half informed by all means carry on as you are. Your choice. vam over & out smokey takin pictures ten four |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: flattop Date: 22 Apr 01 - 08:27 PM What goes under the label of 'free trade' is more complex than which paper we read and which flag we fly. A number of the issues were touched on when the CBC's Ian Brown interviewed Dr. Ian Angell, a computer science instructor at the London School of Economics, I believe. The interview is long. I will post it below and hope that it doesn't truncate. You don't have to agree with his conclusions but I think that Ian Angell identified structural problems in the world trading concept. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: flattop Date: 22 Apr 01 - 08:29 PM In the introduction to the interview Ian Brown summed up Ian Angell's position that the information age is turning most of the world's population into a permanent obsolete underclass. Brown: Hello. Why do you think job losses and shrinking incomes are permanent? Is it not possible that this is just a long and painful recovery period in the world's economic cycle? Angell: Well we're entering a new period of economic existence, an information age, and whenever there's a transition from one age to another there's major discontinuities. When the agrarian revolution happened, when the industrial revolution happened, large sectors of the population lost and as we enter the information age, again large sections of the population are going to find themselves losers. The problem is that growth has been decoupled from employment. Now growth is created by as few machine minders. Growth production doesn't require people. It just requires some brains and an automated factory. Brown: So you seriously believe that this dislocation of workers, this dislocation of the middle class is going to leave part of the population permanently disenfranchised, not just temporarily disadvantaged? Angell: I'm absolutely convinced of it. Well, I think it's going to take two generations to sort itself out. The expectations of our society will not be realized and it's going to require a total rethink. The population itself is going to have to have a different mind set, a different set of expectations to cope with the different reality, to cope with this information age. I see, for example, the city-state being reinvented. We're going to see hot spots where these elite who have the ability to make a profit from the information age will move together for security. Like the example of Singapore, like Switzerland, these areas, because they have low taxation will attract the world's wealthy. Brown: Who is in these moneyed enclaves that you're talking about? Angell: These wealth centers, these hot spots will have very stringent regulations about who's allowed in and who isn't but it can't be part of a nation state because the nation state is a product of the industrial age. In the industrial age the masses were needed. They had power simply by organizing themselves. They were needed for the factories. They were needed for the military. In the information age we have smart weapons and factories are increasingly automated or they can be transferred to where world salaries are low and therefore masses in themselves are no longer powerful. We're going to see in the fallout a rejection, a reaction, a resentment, of the masses. This is what's happening in France at the moment where the lorry drivers are on strike because they insist that they should be paid more but the masses only have labour to offer and they are basically overpriced in the western world. The world labour organization two or three years ago claimed that there were 1 billion people sub-employed on the globe - either unemployed or underemployed. That's almost 20% of the world's population. Now you can't say that labour is valuable when there's 1 billion workers out there who will take on any job at very low wages just to have the work. Brown: What about within a country like Canada, a developed country, if I am computer literate assembly worker or even a member of the service economy? What kind of ... Angell: Being computer literate is irrelevant. That's like saying, "I can drive a car therefore I can do all the advance jobs that people do driving cars." Computer literate is not at issue. What's important is what you do with it. Being able to play video games and knowing on-off switch is irrelevant. It's knowing how to take information and broker it and make money out of it. That's why most of this nonsense being talked about the internet fails to understand that the basic point at issue is how do you make a profit on it. Brown: So is there any hope for anybody who is not either a wealthy entrepreneur or a computer genius? Angell: You don't have to be a computer genius. The computers are becoming semi-transparent now. The ability to know how to work computers is irrelevant. Computer programmers are going to be the grease monkeys of the next century. Look at car mechanics. At the beginning of this century they were paid vast salaries because they were in short supply. I tell my students, 'Don't become computer programmers because you can be bought much cheaper in India.' For example, where the salary of a top quality computer programmer is about a fifth what it is in the U.K. So why buy a British programmer when you can get a better Indian programmer for 20% of the price? Brown: So you have to become a knowledge broker. Angell: A broker. You either have to have the knack of identifying problems, have the knack of solving problems, business problems, or brokering between the problem and the solution. Brown: Why is this class of knowledge brokers necessarily small? Why can't a large number of people, say the size of the current middle class, learn to broker knowledge? What's preventing them? Angell: That's a good question. See, the idea that, this is the idea... do you mean to say that the vast majority of the population has this capacity? Brown: Is it impossible that they will develop that capacity? Angell: Look, I'm talking perhaps 20 - 25% of the population having the ability to do this? Brown: But at the beginning of the industrial revolution for instance there weren't very many people who were skilled enough to become workers but they did. Their numbers grew. Angell: Yes but all that happened was that one type of physical labour was changed for another. They moved off the land and they moved into the factories. The skills we're talking about were skills of dexterity. They were not intellectual. Brown: Governments that are supposedly doing all the right things, cutting deficits, cutting the public service, talking about cutting taxes, are these.. Angell: This is recognition of these trends but they're hoping that they can do these things and still maintain the tax base to survive in the information age. I personally doubt it and we have social systems in place now that are too expensive. There are lots more people unemployed so therefore they're a dead loss. They can't be taxed because they have no money. So they are a drain on the corporate purse. Plato said democracy always ends up in tyranny and the philosophers of the 16th/17th centuries said that democracy couldn't possibly work because ultimately the masses would vote largesse for themselves out of the public purse and that's where we are at the moment. The books just don't add up. So what is going to happen is the thinkers, those with the ability to make wealth in the information age, will all circle the wagons. They will run for cover with people of like minds. Brown: But isn't there an economic cost for writing of the world's workers? If almost everybody is unemployed who buys the products of the techno-genius? Angell: Exactly. But again the danger of this kind of thinking is that you are still using the economics of the 20th century in trying to analyze what is happening. We don't know... it's not just that the workers become unemployed, the whole bases of modern economics changes. A lot of the French philosophers say that history is in reverse now and that we will be reinventing old social structures - perhaps in new forms - to cope with these changing conditions which is why I believe the city state can be reinvented as a means of coping with these new economic pressures. The city-state won't be a city-state with walls. It will be electronic. Brown: In your city-state, as a member of the middle class, who do I work for - clearly some global corporation? Angell: Not necessarily because the global corporations themselves are products of the industrial age, because now the corporation will not be monolithic. Corporations as we know them are based on the factory metaphor as well, on a hierarchy, on a military metaphor. The organizations of the future are going to be much more network oriented. If you take for example General Motors and Ford, their stock market value is roughly the same as Intel and Microsoft but Intel and Microsoft employ a quarter of the workers that Ford and General Motors employ. That in a sense is part of the transition. The structure of the industry in the information age is a lot more network oriented, a lot more entrepreneurial, rather than rigidly bureaucratic. Brown: The product is knowledge rather than cars. Angell: Yeah. Brown: Neo-conservative politicians with whom I'm sure you're familiar keep telling us that the free market, less government and tax cuts will free all of us to become richer, more creative, more self-reliant. That is the neo-conservative line but I don't hear any of them talking about this bleak future you're sketching out? Angell: Well, because they're democrats. They couldn't possibly... because their power base depends on fooling the population into believing that the world is fine out there. Brown: Are you really telling me anything other than the rich get richer and the poor get poorer? Is this really what this comes down to? Angell: Yeah. Yeah. But who are the rich? Rich is not the old definition of rich they are the new rich, the entrepreneurs, the knowledge rich because what's money? One of the things that I'm convinced of is that governments will no longer be able to monopolize the issuing of money. Brown: So who will issue money instead? Angell: Anyone who is trustworthy. Brown: In other words we'll be returning to the trading companies of three four hundred years ago issuing their own currency? Angell: History is in reverse, yes. Why shouldn't Microsoft issue Microsoft dollars? There was a very interesting quotation, 'The question is not dollar bills but Bill's dollars.' All a company has to do is take its equity and issue 20% of it as a currency. Then you find that if the value of that stock goes up then the value of currency in your pocket will actually go up as well, whereas, you know that if it's government money it's going to go down because they deliberately manipulate inflation. It's never zero. It's never negative. If the currency was run by a company you could have negative inflation. Just by holding money it gets better. Brown: What if Macdonald's world Corp won't take my Microsoft currency? How do you control that sort of thing? Angell: Again you're thinking in terms of paper. You're thinking in terms of metal coins. We're talking about an information age. There's no physical structure at all. Everything is just a series of bits. All this fuss in Europe about a single European currency, it's nonsense. They're solving yesterday's problems. Once the money becomes digital it doesn't matter whether there's one currency or a thousand currencies. The transaction costs of changing are minimal. This requires a total rethink of the institutions of the industrial age. You must throw them away. All of your thinking has to be different. When I talk about institutions I'm not talking about clubs. I'm talking about any socio-economic structure that is part of our society. Brown: Is this a world that you look forward to? Angell: That's neither here nor there. I'm trying to be an academic. I'm trying to look at it as a cold angel without anger but without warmth. I'm trying to stand back and look at the trends that are out there and see if I can follow them through. I personally would probably end up as one of the losers because most academics are eunuchs. We don't actually do anything. We've read all the books, we know all the theories but in the Harlem of life we don't have what it takes. Brown: Is there no way we can stop this? Is there nothing we can do to avoid this harsh future you're suggesting? Angell: Again that question reflects the thinking of the machine age. It's a scientific belief. It's the Judeo-Christian belief that we actually can design the future, that we're in control of this planet. The fact is that we aren't and that our designs come to nothing. What we're going to see is natural selection. Of course we're going to design solutions. Some of them will win and some will lose and the one that wins will be copied. And in about fifty years we'll have another stability, hopefully. But the idea that we can sit back rationalizing away and get politicians of all people to actually come up with solutions is laughable. Brown: Dr. Angell, I should say thank you but I do it with a heavy heart. Angell: Well, eat and be merry for tomorrow we die. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:23 PM It almost sounds like with this model, society would go back to something like a feudal system. Only instead of land being the source of the power elites' access to material resources, it would be knowlege and brokering skills. |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Sorcha Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:33 PM Oh good grief, Charlie Brown. I wish we could stick to information from real people (like a lot of the above) and just exclude comments from Guest. I am learning from this thread, and have no content comment to make yet.
Guest obviously has no content comment to make, either, so ingnore it. I deplore both mobs and violence-----on ANY side.....that's all I will say until the "truth will out." If there is ever truth...... |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 01 - 09:41 PM (My 9:23 pm post above is in reference to flattop's article.) |
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Subject: RE: Quebec City Protest of Free Trade. From: Wotcha Date: 22 Apr 01 - 10:40 PM Perhaps of more interest is the WTO's role in intellectual property. The WTO administers the Trade Related Aspects of Intellectual Property Rights (TRIPS). For those artists who like to make an honest penny from their work -- without having it ripped off by Napster or some CD burning bootlegger -- the WTO is creating mechanisms to do it. Others might argue that the World Intellectual Property Organization (WIPO) and its Copyright Treaty and Performance Treaty will help too, but not enough nations have ratified them to do any good yet. Meanwhile we are left with the Berne Convention and other ancient treaties that don't reflect the realities of the digital era. Artists will suffer. Protest if you must, but know that world trade impacts artists and their ability to earn. The WTO has some good in it somewhere ... Are the "cops" provincial or national police ...? Might explain their training. Also could be a cause of concern for a "Free" Quebec if their own law enforcement can't control themselves ... The British had a little problem with tear gas in 1969 N. Ireland and that made enemies of the Catholics they were sent to protect ... I see a parallel here ... Cheers, Brian |
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