Why is folk best?

Subject: Why is folk best???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 02 May 01 - 06:13 PM

Here - really weird time. I watched TOTP2 tonight. For the uninitiated Top of the Pops 2 is a programme on British cable TV for sad gits like me who are on the nostalgia trip. I know I'm sad - OK?????

Anyhow. 30 mins. About 8 songs. Bare in mind there is no fashion dictate on this show. It is pure old stuff. All they show is what they believe to be good. OK?. Premise is that these must be songs that have stood the test of time. Amongst some stuff which was OK (Jimmy Ruffin - Broken hearted for one) and some bad (I can't even remember it!) there were two, yes TWO, 'folky' numbers. Mary Hopkins 'Temma Harbour' (sp???) and Gallagher and Lyle 'Heart on my sleeve'. Good showing! 25% folky stuff on a show that showcases alleged 'mainstream' pop! I watch this show regularly - and this is quite typical.

I am away all tomorrow traveling down to Peterborough and back so I cannot contribute then. Please discuss in my absence. I will be dissapointed if this has disappeared by Friday but I guess if it has my threads must be sadder than I thought...:-(

Cheers all.

Sing a song of Temma harbour, climb a coconut tree...

Hmmmm.

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST,Captain Swing
Date: 02 May 01 - 06:19 PM

It isn't.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Bert
Date: 02 May 01 - 06:22 PM

Catch a fish and lighta fire, take some wine with me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Hollowfox
Date: 02 May 01 - 06:55 PM

It seems there are two questions here. 1) Why is there folky stuff on the show? Because it was popular. Popular doesn't automatically mean good or bad. 2) Why is folk best? For me it's what I like best, most of the time. But I still listen to other styles as well.
A story: The ruler Tamurlane was eating one day and had a delicious dish made with aubergines (eggplant in the USA). He declaired the aubergine to be the best of foods. His advisor agreed. The cook overheard, and for the next month, Tamurlane got nothing else to eat but aubergines in one form or another. At last he raged that it was the worst of foods. His advisor agreed. Tamurlane said," but before you said that it was the best of foods. How can you contradict yourself and still speak the truth?" The advisor said, "I serve my ruler, not a vegetable."
But the point in this case is that a steady diet of anything, no matter how great it is, can stop being enjoyable.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: kendall
Date: 02 May 01 - 07:07 PM

Someone once called folk music, Heavy Mental. I like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Bernard
Date: 02 May 01 - 07:54 PM

Mmmm...

Do I detect a 'what is folk music, then?' thread in its infancy?

'Folk' is such an all-encompassing term that it is unrealistic to try to define it!

I suppose there are songs, performers (whatever), that overlap into different 'genres' - we only need to consider Bob Dylan's career, and that of The Beatles, to see how 'pigeon holing' can be very difficult to apply!

Bob Dylan started out as a 'folk' performer, The Beatles as 'pop'. These days, Beatles songs are sung in folk clubs without anyone thinking it strange; Bob Dylan's songs are performed at rock concerts (Knocking on Heaven's Door, for example), and it's by no means an exception.

Music has the ability to bring people together; it can also force them apart.

No, Folk isn't 'best' - it's all there really is!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Les B
Date: 02 May 01 - 08:13 PM

Why the folk not !?!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 02 May 01 - 08:15 PM

Ooohmmmm...

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 01 - 09:04 PM

'cause folk comes closest to being about something....pop music is inventing new stuff to try to create and surf a trend so as to make $$$ (or £££ or €€€)...sometimes they actually create something interesting nice, too. (And yes, sometimes folky stuff fails to be very good, but I prefer bad stuff that is about something)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 01 - 09:04 PM

'cause folk comes closest to being about something....pop music is inventing new stuff to try to create and surf a trend so as to make $$$ (or £££ or €€€)...sometimes they actually create something interesting nice, too. (And yes, sometimes folky stuff fails to be very good, but I prefer bad stuff that is about something)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Bill D
Date: 02 May 01 - 09:06 PM

ohh..pooh! I haven't accidently double posted in months!....see what happens when you get really caught up in a point? ;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Sorcha
Date: 02 May 01 - 09:08 PM

"Just Because" (*BG*)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST,fortunato
Date: 02 May 01 - 09:15 PM

genres,like denominations, are just names and that's all. musicality/ like spirituality, knows no boundaries. only you can provide artificial distinctions. now that's fun sometimes, but it's more akin to masturbation than it is to intercourse. IMHOP, of course.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Matt_R
Date: 03 May 01 - 12:03 AM

It's not. As Noel Gallagher says, "Nothing is conceptually better than rock & roll." I said this to my friends and Father Tom yesterday, and I got a huge "AMEN!" after I said it.

Local band Lo-Fi Conspiracy says "Rock & Roll Will Heal Your Soul". It certainly worked tonight. I submitted to my major yesterday, but I found out tonight that I was rejected. The Stereophonics new low-key album is keeping me sane. So is James' greatest hits.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 03 May 01 - 04:14 AM

Well, of course jazz is best- and blues, but folk ain't bad, (well, the finger in the ear'ole stuff I can only take in small doses) but American folk played on simple instruments suits my limited intellect....
But folkies are a different matter, you may be obsessive about your instruments, strings, tunings and accessories, you may spend hours debating the origins of modern songs from Child #2001, you may argue about the order of the verses in Sir Patrick Spens, you may tell funnier jokes than me, but you seem a pretty good bunch on the whole!
RtS (the opinions above are my own and not necessarily those of the management)

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Lanfranc
Date: 03 May 01 - 04:49 AM

Stick a label on it and it's less frightening.

Folk music tends to appeal most to the minority of listeners who actual take notice of the lyrics and the tunes in equal measure.

It tends to appeal to singers and musicians who, for whatever reason, like to have some intellectual basis for their interest, but can't handle the complexity of Jazz or Classical music.

The most popular radio station in the UK is BBC Radio 2, and, thanks to the internet, its international appeal is growing. Very little that is played on that station would offend a folk fan, and there is a good deal of the kind of song that gets played in Folk Clubs to be heard there.

I'd hate to think that Folk has become Middle of the Road, though - remember Loudon Wainwright's skunk!

But then, you have to define or redefine "Folk", which is what I believe is called a circular argument!

"It's all Folk Music..............."

Therefore, it has to be the best.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: KitKat
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:57 AM

If it has a strong enough melody that you can sing it unaccompanied and the words make sense, it's a good song. If people are still singing it years later, it's probably become a folk song, whatever its origins.

Pat

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: kendall
Date: 03 May 01 - 07:58 AM

I like the wide variety of subjects in folk music. It seems like rock is full of getting high and being anti social, country is about unfaithful spouses, jazz is about nothing at all, and blues is about getting out of bed and moaning in the key of E. Fire away Matt, I'm loaded for bear!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 03 May 01 - 08:07 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 03 May 01 - 08:18 AM

I really hate it when I do that.

I have all ways liked music which is presented with in a social and historical context which is why I have an interest in traditional irish music. Contemporary singer/song writers like John Prine, Bill Morrissey, Loudon Wainwright & Dylan to name a few have used the folk idiom to talk about contemporary issues and ideas.
Brían

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: English Jon
Date: 03 May 01 - 08:33 AM

Lanfranc, you seem to think that folk music is somehow simpler than Jazz or Classical?

I did a degree in music at Goldsmiths, London. They are big jazz nutters there, because it's formulaic, and therefore easy to mark. I studied Opera for bloody ages, hated every minute. Turned to folk music because it's complex enough to hold my interest, which frankly, Jazz/Classical isn't. I looked at the "New Complexity" School of composition in some detail, Fernyhough, Xenakis etc, and groups like the Cambridge lot. Ades, Wood, Holloway, Goehr etc. As many notes as you can get on the page, basically, but it's all formalaic writing. Sure it's technically quite challenging, but it's mostly bollocks. IMHO ;) especially Thomas Ades.

Anyway, I find folk music to be a much bigger, and more interesting challenge than bloody Verdi.

Cheers, Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Matt_R
Date: 03 May 01 - 08:44 AM

Yeah kendall, you're loaded alright. Sorry, I've had enough anal old bastards for one week, trying to decide what is good for me and keeping me from doing what I love.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 03 May 01 - 09:35 AM

Cheer up Matt - don't be such a hedgehog (prickly)

For me, folk is best because we sing it (& play it).
As to what exactly it is - beats me guv'nor.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 03 May 01 - 09:54 AM

Did someone say it was? On the whole it doesn't matter to me as I like good folk (whatever folk is), good blues, good jazz, good latin, good classical and good rock. The "good" in this respect being my own subjective opinions of course. Anyway I enjoy a good natured debate on any of these as well as a good jam with anyone on the planet in any of these genres!

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: RichM
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:19 AM

Nothing against Rock--it's very energetic..BUT --Rock is youngpeople's music.It's all about lust and longing. Been there, done that.
It doesn't age very well ;)

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:36 AM

Wayhay! Got back early. Got all the way to Peterborough only to find the guy we were seeing was off ill. Ah well, C'est la vie. Nice to see the thread made it through the night anyway. Perhaps I am not sad after all. Or is it that you guys are as bad as me? *BG*

I didn't really intend to start a 'what is folk' thread although I can see it could be taken as such. I just thought it good that 25% of a 'pop' show had folky bias. Mind you, on reflection, if only the good music stays around I guess there will be more folk about anyway - we have been at it longer!

I also like many other genres to, often winding up people I give lifts to and from the folk club by having Hendrix blaring on the car stereo. When asked why I am not playing folk I reply that I like listening to 'proper' music as well..;-).

Gary Aspey once commented that when someone says 'It's all rock and Roll to me' he replies 'It's all jig and reel to me!'. Point being that even Rock and Roll was not new. It is very unlikely that anyone will do anything totaly original and most music, in one form or another, has been around for many years. Just his opinion of course but pretty accurate by my reckoning.

On a slightly different tack but going back to the 'what is?' question, I love the bit in the Blues Brothers film where the waitress at a bar says to them 'We like BOTH kinds of music here. Country AND Western.' Can someone explain to a poor ignorant limey like me what the difference actualy is???

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST, Vestal Jande
Date: 03 May 01 - 10:44 AM

RichM: "Nothing against Rock--it's very energetic..BUT --Rock is youngpeople's music.It's all about lust and longing. Been there, done that. It doesn't age very well ;) "

I beg to differ, but then perhaps fifty-two isn't really that old... ;`)

MattR: I'm really sorry to hear about your rejection. Sounds like it hit you pretty hard. :`(

For me, folk music is "best" because is by "folk" for "folk" about "folk". It's music and lyrics about people. Their loves, hates, triumphs, ---the whole range of experience.

Folk songs are often very poignant and moving. They move me to tears sometimes, both of laughter and sorrow. Folk music reminds me that I'm not alone, and for that I'm most grateful.

~ Jande

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 03 May 01 - 11:24 AM

Hollowfox, I like your story. That about nailed the issue for me. I like any music that doesn't bore me, although I find that as I age, loud music has less and less appeal.

Matt R - I'm sorry to hear about your (temporary, I'm sure) setback. Either you have been victimized by poor judgment on the part of those between you and your calling, or there's something that you may have missed and need to work on. The toughest part is setting aside hurt pride to figure out where the truth lies. Either way, don't let the Bastards get you down! I'm sure that you'll work it out. Best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: GUEST,Frogmore
Date: 03 May 01 - 12:21 PM

Badgered by a young reporter asking the definition of "jazz", I understand that Duke Ellington said, "Write this down - there are 2 kinds of music: good and bad." I don't care much for categories either. Having to use them though, I consider Chuck Berry songs "folk music" by now. Does anyone have any other stupid journalist stories?

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: kendall
Date: 03 May 01 - 02:23 PM

Matt, I am NOT old!

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Justa Picker
Date: 03 May 01 - 02:49 PM

Any music that moves you, is best.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: M.Ted
Date: 04 May 01 - 10:57 AM

Folk music is "best" because all the other kinds of music are based on folk music--Chuck Berry is the perfect example, too! "Sweet Little Sixteen" is just "Richland Girl" (or is it Richland Woman?) updated, and "I'm So Glad I'm Livin' in the USA" is only a step away from "I'm So Glad I'm Twenty One Years Old Today"

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Matt_R
Date: 04 May 01 - 11:09 AM

JustaPicker, youtve got the ANSWER! And the only one, as far as I'm concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: kendall
Date: 04 May 01 - 07:16 PM

For once, I agree with Matt. In my earlier post, all I was saying was, all of the "music" I hear these days moves me. Some of it, right out the door.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Matt_R
Date: 04 May 01 - 07:21 PM

Where you belong.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 May 01 - 09:40 PM

Matt - You say "Nothing is conceptually better than rock & roll."

Nonsense. Sex is. :-) (That's where the expression "rock and roll" came from, after all...).

As for folk music...it's better for certain purposes, while rock and roll is better for other purposes. You just gotta decided which purpose appeals to you at the given moment, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: kendall
Date: 04 May 01 - 10:23 PM

Listen Matt, I am not the old fart who did whatever someone did to you. Grow up.

Subject: RE: BS: Why is folk best???
From: Boab
Date: 05 May 01 - 03:08 AM

Bernard and Kingbrilliant have it right! I once heard a singing member of our local rezzy band being challenged by a cynic with the question "what is folk music?". Tony looked him right in the eye with a pitying expression; "It's what folk sing, man!" A good folk club can have an atmosphere that welcomes the best [and sometimes the worst---but that never repeats!] of traddy and contemporary "folk" ' blues, blue-grass, pop or country.As I say the reaction to any yucky stuff ensures that it is shortlived. The big danger of traditional folk is the gleeful rendition of some obscure ditty which the performer has dug up in some ancient manuscript or archive. If somebody findsa one-hundred-year-old jam jar, it is undeniably an antique---but to a genuine antique lover, it is still only a bloody JAMJAR and should be left buried or used for roadmetal; so with some "traddy gems". Boab