Help: What is a Class Action?

Subject: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 05 May 01 - 12:17 PM

As many of you know, there have been disturbing changes at mp3.com lately. Well, they just introduced a new one, and it seriously breaks copyright laws. I AM REALLY ANGRY NOW!

If you are a musician, or are in a band, DO NOT put your music on mp3.com

For full details of what is going on from an artist's perspective: Here.

And check out the message boards at mp3.com for confirmation: Here.

It's hard enough to get your music out there without this kind of crap.

So, with all that, what is a "Class Action", and how do we, the artists, do one?

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 05 May 01 - 12:32 PM

I'd say that a class action would be something along these lines, but that's just my opinion. When musicians really start to think of themselves as members of the working class instead of powerless individuals, things may change and we'll start to see some class action.

For a start, how about all musicians getting together and funding their own music site with their own rules and methods of compensation. The distribution vehicle is already in place, all that is needed is a better display case.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: wdyat12
Date: 05 May 01 - 12:33 PM

hesperis,

There have been many "Class Actions" filed and won by artists since the 1970's. One that comes to mind is a law suit filed by the Boston Visual Artists Union (BVAU) over copywrites for visual artists. I am not a lawyer, so I don't understand a lot of the legalese in this case. I am having dinner tonight with Ron Leax, a sculptor, professor, and longtime fishing buddy. He was instrumental in organizing this case and I will pick his brain for some answers. I will post my findings tomorrow.

wdyat12

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 06 May 01 - 07:30 PM

Thanks, guys.

This may sound silly, but after all this crap, I am determined to discover the power that I have as a creator of music.

I have pulled the music of a new band that I represent off of mp3.com, and am more slowly pulling my own stuff, as I find alternatives. Jande will make her own decisions. I have also deleted all the music that I put in my own 'my mp3' account, so that the artists will be freer to remove their material.

It just makes me so angry, that they would start the 'my mp3' "service", get sued by the major labels for it, and then proceed to try to do the same copyright infringements to the artists who are already making them money. And they don't expect the little guys to sue them...

Sure, there needs to be a way for artists and the mp3 service companies to make money on the net - but it can, and MUST, be done with respect, not money-grubbing.

SHEESH!

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: SeanM
Date: 07 May 01 - 03:16 AM

Not to belittle any of the concerns that people have...

But beyond the P2P issues and the like, what is the issue with offering to store customer's purchases on the website?

I can sincerely understand the concern if MP3.com was stating that once you posted a song they could continue to sell it indefinitely. But as far as I could see, most of the issue related around the site's storing the files for customers that have purchased it.

Tell me - would it be an issue if someone downloaded your CD, and then stored it on FreeDrive or some other internet site? It'd only be accessible to those who the owner of the site allowed in.

If it's something else, or merely that this is the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back", then my apologies. But if it's merely a matter of being upset that MP3 customers can access purchased material via the website, then I can't see the issue. It'd seem to be on par with being a more accessible version of having a private collection under lock and key that you can access. You've bought everything, now you just have a copy of it where it's safe.

Once again, if this is NOT the issue, I apologize and would love to hear what the issue is - however, from the links Hesperis provided above, this really appeared to me to be the central issue...

M

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:06 PM

Yes, it is partially a matter of the "straw" as you put it. But also, they were sued by the major labels for doing this, and now they are doing it to the little artists. If it's a copyright infringement for the major labels, then it's one for me.

If the customer bought my stuff, and wanted as an individual, to put it online on mp3.com in their own locker, then that would be their perogative, as an individual, and would not interfere with the way I present my songs. But mp3.com has no right to keep my music indefinitely at a central location even after I have left the site.

Also, mp3.com is dictating to the artists how they present their music. If you uploaded a song, and didn't have the right cover art for it at the time, now you have to make a copy of that song in order to make ANY changes to it, such as artwork, genre, description, etc. If your song goes to #1 on mp3.com, wouldn't you want to say it in the description? (Not that any of mine have...) Well, if you do, then that song would be considered a totally new song, not the same song as the one that made it to #1, and would start out all over again at the last spot.

They are trying to make, on the net, something as static as a physical CD. Without offering the listeners a personal locker of space on mp3.com's servers, but a centralized one.

I object to the centralization, because it is not up to mp3.com to save each little change I make to my music, it is up to the individual listener to do so. If they want to save each change I make, then they can burn a new CD each time I change the slightest thing on my song. Or upload it to freedrive 25 times, with different version numbers.

Anyone can take my music and put it on freedrive, I don't care, because it is on that listener's own account, not a central freedrive account that anyone can use.

As for the other reasons, how many songs do you know that fit into only one genre? If I upload my songs to mood music, but they don't do very well there because there are millions of other songs there, and want to switch it to experimental classical, how is the song itself different? Does the listener who downloaded my song care what genre it's in if they like it? No.

There have been a lot of really strange changes at mp3.com lately, and they were introduced without much advance warning at all, so we couldn't make the changes needed BEFOREHAND. And these changes were made without the input of the artists that mp3.com is supposed to make the "digital music revolution" easier for. Is it any wonder that people do not trust them anymore?

mp3.com is now nothing more than a vanity publisher, and they changed the focus of their site without consulting the artists, who they depend on for their content, and most of their advertising. They made senseless changes, in such a way that it was made very clear that they do not care anything for the artists any longer. They are just out to exploit what they can get from anyone.

When they first started, they were THE site for artists to put their music, and THE site for people who wanted to find underdog bands they liked. The legal agreement was fair and in the artists' favour. They dealt promptly and accurately with any customer service problems. Now, because of the 'my mp3' fiasco with the major labels, they are trying to squeeze money from the artists to pay for their mistake. Now, they are also trying to make the same mistake to the artists themselves that they made with the major labels.

The artists didn't ask for 'my mp3' and don't want to pay for the fallout. Simple as that. (I would be very surprised if te listeners asked for the 'my mp3' "service", as well. I am a listener as well as an artist, and I didn't ask for it.)

They put it on central servers, and are now trying desperately to make the idea work, when it was flawed in the first place!

If they had made it like a freedrive, where each individual has their own space, then that would be fine! - but they didn't. (And they are trying to make the artists pay for it.)

~Chagall

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:15 PM

Girl, I dunno what you tawkinnabout, cuz this puder won't do any of it. But seeing you on fire with such articulate passion is GREAT. Just remember, pace the fight and keep your wellbeing moving upward... rest between the righteous rants as you keep rejecting the nonsense you can see so clearly.

My question would be, what is there in all this that will enhance your creativity and wellbeing? That brings more YOU out into the world?

love,

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: DougR
Date: 07 May 01 - 12:23 PM

Just find a lawyer willing to take the case on, on contingency. If there is a good case for a lawsuit, one probably wouldn't be too hard to find.

DougR

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:29 PM

Mark - I just realized that I didn't say anything about this, and I need to: "For a start, how about all musicians getting together and funding their own music site with their own rules and methods of compensation. The distribution vehicle is already in place, all that is needed is a better display case."

Yes. Some people at mp3.com are talking about that. What is needed is not just a display case, but an integral people structure behind it as well.

I think that when mp3.com became MPPP on the stock market, that's when things changed, because the people at the top realized that they didn't have to give good service in order to get rich quick. I'm not interested in getting rich quick, but in being a part of a solid, dependable, long-term way for me and hopefully other artists to make money from their creativity, while letting as many people as possible enjoy the experience.

Susan - there's your answer.

DougR - Thanks, I will look into it.

~Chagall

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:41 PM

Chagall-- Kick ASS!

With you in charge.... !caramba!

What's your next step to make it be as you see it can be?

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: mousethief
Date: 07 May 01 - 01:44 PM

Virtually nothing Spaw does is a class action.

Grins,
Alex

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 May 01 - 02:34 PM

There is an organization that is called "Lawyers for the Arts" that provides assistance to artists free of charge--there are also any number of attorneys who specialize in music law--But first, I would contact first the attorneys who acted against MP3.COM, asking for information on the judgements that they got and how they might impact you--also, If my memory serves me, there is a some sort of arrangement that gives you as an MP3.COM posting artist membership priviliges in ASCAP(or the right to join for a special fee, or something along those lines)--since ASCAP was one of the plaintiffs in the action against MP3, you may be able to have them act on your behalf--

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 May 01 - 05:54 PM

Alex, I represent that last remark. Now it may be that I so gawd dum damn that I ain't got no swave at all, but I do have a lot of class............all of it low. Why, the last time I ripped one I even said, "Pardon me......I learned that from Alex." Classy tribute ain't it?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Nemesis
Date: 07 May 01 - 06:36 PM

I thought class action was when we all threw a desk out of the school window in Year 7...

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Nemesis
Date: 07 May 01 - 06:36 PM

I thought class action was when we all threw a desk out of the school window in Year 7...

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Nemesis
Date: 07 May 01 - 06:39 PM

I thought class action was when we all threw a desk out of the school window in Year 7... Or was it when we democratically debated over which was the surest way to drive the teachers into a nervous breakdown? (Tip: Miss Nugent = sotto voce choruses of "Nelly the Elephant" in the corridors)

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: DougR
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:53 AM

"Lawyers for the Arts," would probably be a good place to start. They could at least tell you if there is a good possibility for winning a law suit.

An individual or law firm that specializes in class action suits might come closer to getting the kind of results you want though. Big bucks would be the attraction to a law firm or individyal lawyer, though, I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:12 AM

Spaw, you may not hev much swave, but you is big on deboner. Mos' usual swave an deboner goes hand in hand but I guess in some cases they kin split theyselves up.

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 08 May 01 - 10:12 AM

LOL! I read "deboner" as "de-boner" like for fish or sumting. Heh!

Thanks, M Ted, DougR

Well, the first stage of righteous anger has passed, and now I am realizing that I am not strong enough to do this... Carrying that kind of a banner is really hard work, and is likely to get one attacked severely by the established powers. *sigh*

I can't do this by myself... I need many people who are willing to come together for this... and one person to be the figurehead, who is strong enough for the job.

Like, what'll happen when I get sick?

I hate it when I have to be realistic about what I can and cannot do... *sigh*

The only other option is to do something so small, that the big guys don't notice me... but maybe other little guys will?

I don't know if I'm strong enough for that, either!

~Chagall

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: M.Ted
Date: 08 May 01 - 11:05 AM

Chagall,

Your big problem is that, like most people, you don't know what a contract is, what your legal rights, are what your recourses are, and, worst of all, you don't know how to stand up for yourself(don't mean to sound harsh--but...)

You do not need a big movement, you do not need to hide from the big guys, you don't even need to be particularly strong--

As to trying to be realistic, you are not being realistic, you are being self-defeating--you are also being stupid..yes, you!!!! STUPID!!!!! Why??? Because you do have legal rights, and rather than even find out what they are, you are answering your own questions with self-defeating garbage from your head--(Listen to me!!!! I am telling you this for your own good!!!!)

You need to put as much effort into this as you did into writing and recording the stuff that is no a tune--

If I were you, I'd check out the ASCAP site and figure out if you are or qualify to be, member(generally, the deal is that you have to have written a song that is either physically published or recorded and released in order to qualify, but I think that they stretched the rules a bit to allow that having stuff at MP3.COM is sufficient). At any rate, talk to them. They are a membership association that looks after the rights (and collects the royalties) for songwriters, and they have lawyers on hand, perhaps even lawyers who are already dealing with problems with MP3.COM-

At any rate, there are a lot of people in the same boat with you on this, and there are some avenues to get the legal support you need--

The most important thing to remember is that this is a change MP3.COM is trying to make in their contract with you, it isn't engraved in stone, but if you accept it without saying a word, it will be.

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 May 01 - 12:56 PM

Chagall,

You have already been strong enough to write powerful and clear words exploring a very complicated situation. Now... where else can you use that material to get others' attention and attract the team you envision?

Stand up... cup your hand above your eyes to block the light's glare... Drift your gaze... Look far and clear for the middle course... Where does that lie, and what is along the way? Take the step you can.

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Kim C
Date: 08 May 01 - 01:31 PM

I just got 38 cents in a class action settlement. It had something to do with finance charges on a credit card or something. Anyway they credited the 38 cents to my account.

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: DougR
Date: 08 May 01 - 07:57 PM

Shucks shoot, Kim C, they didn't even give you a choice as to how you wanted to spend your newfound wealth? How unthoghty of them. :>) DougR

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 09 May 01 - 12:41 AM

Thanks, Susan.

Sometimes I forget that jsut because I'm sick a lot, it doesn't mean that I am useless. In fact, I am incredibly capable when I have a computer in front of me, because I can USUALLY still use the computer even if I don't have the physical strength to walk out the door to get my mail...

So, yeah, TEAM. I need a TEAM...

And this looks like a good place to start for finding/founding one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/allianceofnetmusic

Anyhoo, I'm off to bed. (Sleep is a good thing to get when you need strength.)

Thank you all for the help and support here.

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 09 May 01 - 02:21 AM

Ch'gall (rhymes with ShBoom),

I am going to say this here instead of in a PM because I think it may apply to lots of Mudcatters. When you get all fired up like that, and then slump... aw, sweetie, it's all those things you know it is, but it's ALSO those cute lil adrenals. I've lived it... please, re-review the info I sent you, and think about adding the vitamins that support those lil guys. Aw... they work awfu' hard!

~S~

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 May 01 - 08:55 AM

Before we let this go, I do want to mention that I was involved with the OLGA effort when the music industry tried to get rid of it--my experience from there is that it will work much better if you decide what you want to do first, then get people together who want to do it as well, rather than getting a group of people together first, then trying to decide what you want to do--

Anyway, I think that you may be covered by what has already been worked out, but you never know until you look into it--

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 09 May 01 - 11:27 AM

Another note: I qualify for SOCAN, as I have a self-produced CD. They have deals with all three of the major artist representation in the US, so I probably qualify for those, too.

M. Ted, thanks.

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 09 May 01 - 11:37 AM

Hesperis - I have just read a news report on Netscape's daily online diatribe. I doubt that a clicky is of use as I suspect that they reuse the links daily. I will try anyway This might go to the correct news item.
If it doesn't Here is the text of the item. It seems relevant to your dispute.
Geoff the Duck

Musicians sue MP3.com in $40.5 million copyright suit

Tom Waits, Heart and Randy Newman have filed a £28.5 million copyright infringement lawsuit against MP3.com.

The artists, who all own the copyrights to their music, allege the site's My.Mp3.com service gives listeners unlicensed access to their songs.

They claim about 270 songs are illegally available through the service and are asking for the maximum penalty of around £105,000 for each song.

The suit lists songs such as Downtown Train by Waits and Barracuda by Heart, as well as Newman's hits I Love LA and Short People.

It claims the MP3's copyright safeguard - whereby users are asked to insert a compact disc into a computer to prove ownership - is unsatisfactory.

"Unless the major artists band together to do this, everyone else is taken advantage of as well," said attorney for the plaintiffs Henry Gradstein.

A spokesman for MP3.com said the company has not been served with the suit and couldn't comment.

Last November, MP3.com agreed to pay £37.5 million to Universal Music Group, which ended the company's disputes with major music-makers.

Earlier, a federal court judge in New York ruled MP3.com had intentionally violated the copyrights of the music companies.

Last October the National Music Publishers' Association filed a separate suit. MP3.com agreed to pay them $34 million to make more than a million musical compositions available on the site.

(c) Copyright Ananova Ltd 2001, all rights reserved.

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 May 01 - 12:12 PM

I never could figure out why MP3.COM went ahead with that storage business--it had nothing to do with what was supposed to be their business plan, and there was no legal, moral, or artistic principle that justified it at all--it just cost them a whole lot of money, and a lot of credibility as well--

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: M.Ted
Date: 09 May 01 - 12:14 PM

Hesperis,

If and when you talk to SOCAN(or whoever) please let us know what they tell you--

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Jande
Date: 09 May 01 - 01:53 PM

"So, yeah, TEAM. I need a TEAM...

And this looks like a good place to start for finding/founding one: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/allianceofnetmusic "

Hey! I didn't realise until I got poking around in there that this was a group YOU created!

I joined.

I wanna make a logo.

Want a part-time moderator?

~ Jande (feeling a teeny bit better today...)

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 09 May 01 - 02:38 PM

Geoff - perfect.

I'll get in touch with some people, and see if I can get some help to do the same thing... particularly if some of my songs remain on the site after I delete them, which I am starting to do today.

M. Ted - yes all the artists are wondering why they did the storage thing, too...
I spoke with SOCAN, they don't really know anything about the online music ditribution stuff, but by becoming a member, I can more easily become a member of the US ones, and they DO know about it, because all the sites I've put music on asked me if I was a member of a PRO.

Jande - Glad you are recovered from the first shock. I am planning the group to be unmoderated, (which means moderated by EVERYONE, heh heh heh,) and open to anyone concerned about musicians' rights. But yes, join, and do some research of your own, and add links, etc. The only way I am moderating this, is to provide a place where people can come and discuss this stuff, and maybe some mediation among people if discussions get TOO heated.
Go for the logo, I am planning a website for this eventually as well.

Check out the bookmarks, and the files in that group's site. There's some stuff up there already.

~Chagall

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:02 AM

Geoff, that is even more useful now. Someone on mp3.com message boards found that article, posted a thread about it, and as I went to reply, the thread came up as:

"Topic Not Active Sign Out You have reached a topic that either doesn't exist or is not active at this time. Click here to return to the message board."

The thread was deleted.

You all know what that means...

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 10 May 01 - 01:12 PM

Well, you can hardly expect someone who is up to something dubious to host a discussion condemning them and organising action against what they are trying to impose.
I'm glad I pasted the text rather than just a link, because, as I suspected, that link is now a completely different story from today's news, and not the otem I had seen.
Best of Luck.
GtD

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: hesperis
Date: 21 May 01 - 01:31 PM

mp3.com has been acquired by Universal... http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=34560

I can't fight this. You know why? Because I haven't worked on my story since this all started happening at mp3.com...

I want to create. I am not the right person for this job.

However, I will continue to speak out against the mega-corporation's taking control of creativity.

Subject: RE: Help: What is a Class Action?
From: Jande
Date: 21 May 01 - 03:08 PM

The best way to push away evil is for as many of us as possible to do more good.

Keep on creating Hes, honey! Songs that encourage, songs that inspire, songs that unite us in a common good, are the things that will eventually win for us, if not victory, but at least balance.

Loveya!

~ Jande