Learning Irish? Try this..

Subject: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: MartinRyan
Date: 10 May 01 - 05:51 PM

There's a new ezine in the Irish language - aimed at learners and improvers as much as experts. Click here

First issue has an interview with Altan's Mairéad ní Maonaigh.

Regards

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: InOBU
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:06 PM

Gorra maith agut, Martin a mhic - Lor

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 May 01 - 07:51 PM

Maybe this is a good place to ask a question: What's the difference between Irish and Scots Gaelic? Are they mutually intelligible? If there's anyone out there who knows both, I'd appreciate it if you'd give me a sample in both languages so I could compare them.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Dear Jim
Date: 10 May 01 - 08:27 PM

They were sorta the same but some Gaelic speaking Scots believe a story Book writ by a bunch of N African nomads over 6000 years ago. The Nomads copied into their book the current Sumerian and Egptian legends of the time. The Book is called the Tenacht.

Much later in Israel there was a Jewish Rabbai called Yeshua who ended up being nailed to a tree for his heretical claims by his own bosses. This started a trend greatly enhanced by a Roman called Paul who added to the new trend more nonsense from the Mithracist movement, this BTW was a Roman Cult.

Eventuall this new trend became a Religion but split up into different camps. One camp claim that the truth comes from an Italian dictator called Rome, the other that it comes from the appended Tenacht called the Bible.

As even Noddy the village idiot of Ballybunnion can tell you the whole thing is very suspect and probably all made up or dreamed up or something.

Anywho the RomeScots Gaelic people do understand the Irish Gaelic people - they too are Romebelievers. The BibleScots Gaelic people speak a different language. That is why they do not understand each other.

The Ballybunnion Idiot also asked one day why would anyone want to import a religion since there was enough leperachauns in Ballybunnion to pray to already, he was told that the leperachauns were illusions and he needed to meet Jesus. When he asked where Jesus lived a big Red Neck pointed to a Book. But said the Idiot it is too small for a real person to fit in and besides this MAN was a Rabbai and wore sandals. The Red Neck grabbed the Idiot by the throat and said 'look you f***ing idiot I know what Jesus is ...' and threw him on the ground gasping for air. The Red Necks planned a crucifixion for the next friday at the back of Ballybunnion Lodge. Copious supply of Hog and moonshine was laid on and some dancing naked virgins for desert.

So on the next friday they dragged the Idiot to the Lodge and after explaining to him it was for his own good and that soon he was to meet Jesus. They then whacked him over the head and nailed him to a tree. Drank copious ammounts of moonshine, ate hog butt steaks and danced with naked virgins. Meanwhile the idiot recovered consciousness and prayed real hard to the leperachauns - soon a little fellow hanging upside down out of the tree whipped out the nails and gently laid the idiot on a branch high up in the tree. Making weird noises the Leperachaun healed the Idiot and gave him the gift of balance.

Meanwhile below the Red Necks found the Idiot gone, but they had a Book to consult so they read and read and read all through the night.

The Idiot awakening from his Branch-home decided to take that morning air and stood up yawning loudly.....even though it was barely light below the eating and drinking and burping and virgins dancing sounds continued even louder than earlier, the Red Necks heard the Yaaaawwwn looked up and lo they cried in a loud voice 'He is riz ....praise the Lawwwwwddddd''''

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:19 PM

Jim, I am not sure what that last post was about. But my understanding is that Gaeilige (Irish) and Scots Gaelic were the same language until about the 17th century. I would imagine this would refer to Ulster Irish. The languages have significant differences now, as well as some significant similarities. But the spelling is quite a bit different. Hopefully one of our better scholars can help you more.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 10 May 01 - 11:25 PM

Jim, I just thought to check the introduction to "Learning Irish" by Mícheál Ó Siadhail. He says the following:

The form of Celtic that was to become Irish was brought to Ireland by the invading Gaels -- about 300 B.C. according to some scholars. Later it spread to Scotland and the Isle of Man. Scottish Gaelic and Manx gradually separated from Irish (and, more slowly, from each other), and they can be thought of as distinct languages from the seventeenth century onwards. The term "Gaelic" may be used to denote all three.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,i'm baaaaaaack ha ha
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:22 AM

Well A Mheil bhuil tu go bhait? Really there is very little difference between the various dialects of the Gaelge.

In fact in the regions of Tir Scoti there are many variations for example West Cork Ireland is as different to Donegal as that is to the Isles of Scotland.

If you were to ask a question of a local in any of them and used another dialect you'd be quizzed but well understood.

It is the same thing in Arabaic, Turkish and many other languages.

In order to understand the post on Gaelic Beliefs above you'd need to study Egyptian, Sumerian and Jewish history and in order to understand the saga of Ballybunnion you just need to travel around Britain or the Southern States of the USA.

The Gael form a branch of a larger nation the remnant of which is still extant in the following locations.

Britain - Scotland - Wales - Kernow - Manx - Ireland (The only indipendant Celtic Nation on the Planet!), Spain - Galacia, France - Britany, Gemany - Bavaria, Switzerland, Bulgaria, Poland - Galago, Turkey - Galatia, Argentina - Patagonia, Canada - Nova Scotia, USA Pockets all over the entire country. Australia same as US, Newzealand same thing.

They are called the Celts or Kelts, the defeated the Romans in 300 BC and again in 300 AD - The Romans did not get it first time around any more than the current UK government - when the Celt says no thank you they never change their minds. Current World powers would be wise to avoid wars with the Kelts even if they could win them now later the Kelt will obliterate their enemies off the face of the planet as the have so many times in the past.

Their philosophy is fairly easy to figure and based on the Brehon Laws. Live and let live, really that simple. Anyone who forcefully denied the Law to them found that they resisted and made war if necessary, if the Kelt lost the war he would resort to underground war and make a culture of that. The Romans in the end of their stay in Britain were attacked by the Scoti from Ireland who responded to a call from modern France to go to mainland Uk and help the locals run off the bully Romans. The warriors from Pictich and Gaelic tribes joined together. The Romans had no idea that this was part of Continental war waged by the Kelt against them.

The Kelts kept secret records and to this day the script has never been deciphered. It does explain how the same Brehon Law is found all over the continent of Europe.

Scoti Abu!

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 May 01 - 09:38 AM

Well, Friend GUEST, I guess you are entitled to your interpretation. I take great pride and enjoyment from being a Celt, but I would have to say that your version is a bit colored by your enthusiasm for your heritage. To suggest that the Celt, or Keltoi (one being based on the other and both coming from the Greek description of our early peoples - never a term they used to describe themselves) had some kind of worldwide council that acted in concert, and kept records, flies in the face of every single bit of history that I have ever read. The examples of the Celts coming together to act as one in any country are so rare as to make history. The Gallic Confederacy led by Vincingtorix (sp?) would be one, and Boru in Ireland would be another. Do not mistake my intent. We Celts have much to be proud of. We were one of the early civilising influences in Europe. Our customs and culture are seen around the world today. Some of our peoples have some of the oldest written history, literature and musical heritage known to (wo)mankind. It is such a proud heritage that I don't see the need to make it more than it is. Seems to me that it just denigrates the factual history.

Could some of the more learned scholars among us comment on this, please? I stand ready to be corrected.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 May 01 - 10:20 AM

By the way, Martin, what a wonderful site that is. Thanks for providing the link. I really enjoyed going through the articles. And the way that they "highlight" certain phrases is certain to be of great assistance to entry level learners. May I suggest that folks scroll down to the article on Gaeltacht Minnesota. These folks have another wonderful site for the learning of the language.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 May 01 - 10:36 AM

THere is a fantastic site at:

Focal an Lae - The Word of the Day in Irish
URL converted to link. -JoeClone, 15-May-01.

It gives a comparison of Irish Scots and Welsh and gives a neat language timeline...I especially enjoy the curse generator.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Fiolar
Date: 11 May 01 - 11:57 AM

Just in passing, the Scots pronounce "Gaelic" as "Galic" and most other nations including the Irish pronounce it "Gaylic." Never could figure out the "galic" sound.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Seany
Date: 11 May 01 - 12:30 PM

hmmm,

Gallic - to do with a region in France called Gallicia ?

I learnt Ulster Irish for a while in school. Moved away from N.Ireland and then years later met someone from Cork. Couldn't agree on simple things like 'how are you' - "Ca/d e/ mar ta/ tu/" so must be very different dialect.

Then I moved to Glasgow a few years ago and there were a few signs around in Scots Gaelic. I could translate them easily e.g. Fai/lte go raimh sra/id na ban ri/ (approximately) - Welcome to Queen Street. This was very pleasing.

So Scots Gaelic is more akin to Ulster Gaelic than Cork Gaelic is - must reflect the constant movement of people between Ulster and Scotland.

Go raibh maith agat agus slan.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: The Celtic Bard
Date: 11 May 01 - 12:44 PM

I feel so left out with all this Gaelic flying around on this thread. Obviously I can't read or speak it. Wish that I could but it's hard to find Gaelic speakers in So. Cal.

Rebecca <><

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:02 PM

Rebecca, from the http://www.lincolnu.edu/~focal site there is also a link to Gaeilge-B, a discussion list for beginning speakers of Irish Gaelic.

List Address: [e-mail]

To Subscribe

Send mail to: [e-mail]

With the command: SUBSCRIBE GAEILGE-B Your Name in the body of the message. (i.e., fill in your first and last names after the list name).

BACK to the LINKS page

English: May the malevolent hedgehogs gnaw at your manly part.

Irish: Go gcreime na gráinneoga cealgrúnacha do bhall fearga.

Phonetic: guh GREH-muh nuh GRAWN-yoh-guh KYA-luhg-roo-nuh-khuh duh WAHL FA-ruh-guh.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 May 01 - 02:03 PM

(the curse was not meant for anyone I just really enjoy it)

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 May 01 - 03:22 PM

HEY UB ED.........We had some fun with the curse generator before and being another "non-gael" I soon found out it's not too accurate. Read this PREVIOUS THREAD and you'll see what I mean!!!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Dear Mick and that other omhadain ...ulster
Date: 11 May 01 - 04:15 PM

Pog mo ....well you guessed that didn't ya.

Love the hedgehog spell/cuss.

Mick I am sorry that we disagree bit either what I read was in error or what you read was wrong.

Where are you reading the history from?

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,UB Dan
Date: 11 May 01 - 05:03 PM

spaw...this news makes me sad...

p.s. I'm not UB Ed but I am related by band

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:42 PM

The Irish usually call their own language Gaeilge, pronounced Gwayl-guh, the stress being put on the first syllable.

There is a difference between Welsh, a P-celtic language an Irish a Q-celtic language, an example being the words Penn(welsh), and Ceann,(Irish)for the word head. I can't speak for how the welsh pronounce their language, but ceann is pronounced kyahn, with a definite q sound.

Go raibh míle maith agaibh a Mháirtín agus a Mhíceal.Tá neart eolas agaibh ar ceol agus gaeilge.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 May 01 - 06:48 PM

Great Zot DAN......I am so sorry! That was unintentional, but still rude. My apologies!

IDA Spaw (Incredible Dumb Ass)

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 11 May 01 - 07:38 PM

Hello I know very little but what I do know is this back in the time of the Roman empire It was not uncommon for the celts of different tribes to band together from I can remember reading though they would generally be from the same area. the story of Boudicca says somewhat about this because even though she got them to band together they would not listen to a central leader and each faction listened to its leader and the battle was sure chaos and the romans being organized thus defeated them.the same with Victorinox and others but the celts did whup there asses pretty regular until the Romans became a unified military might.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 11 May 01 - 10:38 PM

Hell guest, no big deal. My understanding of the history is not from any one source but rather a lifetime of amateur study from a variety of sources. There were indeed times when various clans (Belgae, etc.) would form alliances but more often than not these were against each other and were often politically driven by the moment. I got from your post that your interpretation was that there was some great Pan-Celtic confederacy that lasted over the centuries and was driven by some larger plan or goal. That is not what my understanding is. That is why the Gallic Confederacy was so noteworthy. When the Gallic Celts (area roughly known as France these days)came together under a common leadership it was very "newsworthy". The young Ri who accomplished it knew that to match up with the Roman disciplined form of waging war that the old Celtic style of mayhem wouldn't work. In the end, the alliance broke and the end was predictable. Same held true in Ireland until Boru was finally able to form an alliance with him as the Ard Ri to drive the Danes and their Irish allies out. Unfortunately, with his death the alliance never was the same again as the various clans went back to the old ways.

I really love your excitement over our common heritage. Let me know some of your sources and I will dig out some of mine as well.

Le gach dea-mhéin,

Mícheál Mhor

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Dear Michael Mhor
Date: 12 May 01 - 10:20 AM

My sources are off the net at this time. The secret language that is oft times scoffed at especially by apologists for the various invaders is called Runic and was common to all of the Druids and Learned of the Celt.

You will find lots of data on this among Pagan revival sites.

Out of interest what remains of the Roman Empire? Or for that matter the Greek or even the British?

7 thousand years of history tell a strange but enchanted tale of the Galli.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 12 May 01 - 02:17 PM

Yeah, I agree with that last statement, guest. I now that you told me that you are speaking of the Runic alphabet, I understand where you are coming from. Please be sure and share the websites that contribute to the case you make. I would love to look into them.

I am no apologist for any of the invaders. I just find the search......the journey that is the quest for knowledge ...........to be very enjoyable. But I would have to say that the Roman Empire certainly has damn near as many of its influences in modern society as our Celtic culture does. I don't have any problem acknowledging their influence, but the problem I have with the current romanticized views that do little to demonstrate the real contributions of our people. I think it takes away from the complexity of the culture and the civilization of the Celts to try and put them into nice little perceptual boxes. What has happened to the telling of who and what the Druidic orders were is a perfect example. Today we have Druids portrayed as what folks want them to have been instead of what they were. This was a very complex order that included the law interpreters, the healers, the seers, the bearers of the bardic gifts, the sacrificers, etc. In each of these practices their were very complex, and logical, sets of rules/reasons for the implementation of the various rites and rituals. The belief systems were involved and earth centered. We have reduced them today to a caricature of a Merlinesque wizard. The author, Morgan Llwyllen, who is an acquaintance of mine, and I have exchanged much information on her. She is known, in the preparation for her books, to be one of the finest researchers and most knowledgeable authors today. If you want to really learn about Irish and Celtic history and legend, you couldn't hurt yourself by reading her historical novels, and then going to the bibliographies and going through just her sources. If one had no more base than that they would be a very well informed Celtic scholar.

Keep in touch on this, I am enjoying the discourse.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Fiolar
Date: 13 May 01 - 05:38 AM

To Dear Michael Mhor. I always understood that the Runic alphabet was initially of Scandanavian origin and had little if any relevance to the Celts. It comes from the Old Norse word "run" (pronounced "roon") meaning "secret." The Celtic alpahabet on the other hand was "Ogham" and was connected with the god Ogma.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,fiolar ...... grrrr
Date: 13 May 01 - 05:56 AM

Runes for runnies. Ok try this squiggles carved in rocks of unknown origin. Orisquigs - from the god Oris.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 13 May 01 - 11:29 AM

Thanks for the correction, Fiolar. I wasn't thinking very clearly or I would have corrected the reference from Runic to Ogham. You are absolutely correct on this. This is one of the perils of growing old...........LOL.

Good man,

Mick

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 13 May 01 - 09:11 PM

I just would like to say that I have been observing this exchange with admiration. Being able to debate ideas in an open exchange without getting mean-spirited is something I aspire to. Although this has seemed to stray from the original topic Martin proposed,an Irish Language site (www.beo.ie, a great site), I'd like to see it continue.

I too am very interested in Celtic, especially Gaelic Culture and investigating the way it creeps into our modern society. Take a look at the words Lake, Lac,Lough, Loch,they have the same meaning, a name for a body of water. Some have gaelic and some have latin origins. They all have a common Indo-European root. I think sometimes we find ourselves waxing nostalgic for our Celtic Heritage when we don't even realise how much we have all around us. I remember being given a tour of a church in Letterkenny by the sextant of the church who pointed out how designs of oak leaves were painted, carved and incorporated into the stained glass of the church. He mentioned that these designs were referring to Colmcille and the Druids. He didn't seem to have a problem with obvious pagan imagery in a catholic church. He was obviously devoutly catholic.

I later saw a Holy well by a roadside in Donegal with a statue of the virgin and blessed rocks from Lourdes. I doubt the people who stopped there to pray considered themselves pagans, but people had probably been praying ther long before the coming of christianity to Ireland.

I have not read Morgan Llwyllen, but I did get a chance to hear her speak to a crowd under a hot tent at Stonehill College in Canton, MA a couple of years ago. She was very knowledgable and entertaining. Another book I've read that discusses connections of celtic and pagan influences in Ireland is Islands of Storm, by Charles Roy. It is very well researched as well as entertaining, full of personal experiences with colorful people he meets in his investigation of ancient monastic sites in Ireland. It gives a refreshing look into the lives of the saints that is temporarily makes one forget about all the pamphlets and prayer cards we were handed in stacks in our religious education classes.

Slán go fóill,
Brían

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Fiolar
Date: 14 May 01 - 05:37 AM

To Guest, Brian. Surely you mean "sexton"? :-)In my book an sextant is an instrument for measuring angular distances between objects. Mind you I have never visited Letterkenny. The beauty of the Celtic church is that it managed to incorporate much of the ancient Irish "pagan" religion into the Christian one. Patrick recognised the situation and was flexible enough to accept it. "Holy" wells are a throwback to ancient Celtic god/goddesses and simply by changing the name to a saint, the practice continued. Ireland by the way is one of the few countries which never had martyrs on the introduction of the Christian religion. When I was growing up in Ireland, many places were regarded as the domain of the fairy folk. Thes included lioses and raths as wells as certain isolated blackthorn trees.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 14 May 01 - 06:26 AM

I stand corrected, Fiolar. Sexton is the word I meant to use. My wife also corrects me and mentions the oak motifs were in the mosaics on the floor of the church. The incorporation of pagan elements into the church in Ireland was the exactly point I was trying to make.
The issue of martyrdom is brings up an illustration. The acts of monks travelling around the world in little leather bottom boats as Colmcille and Breandan has been traced to a pre-christian custom of putting bound criminals in boats an releasing them to the will of the gods on the open sea.

Brían

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Chris
Date: 14 May 01 - 11:00 AM

Could I have a glass of whatever you guys are on?

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 01 - 11:07 AM

Chris, instead of dropping a comment that is gratuitous, why don't you join in and offer something of use?

Mick

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 14 May 01 - 11:32 AM

Can I drop in to play pedant? The statement The form of Celtic that was to become Irish was brought to Ireland by the invading Gaels -- about 300 B.C. according to some scholars is a bit misleading. There is little or no evidence for an invasion or movement of people bringing their language to Ireland. Instead, the general consensus today is that a movement of ideas and therefore a transmission of "Celtic culture" was behind the change apparent in the material record.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Curious
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:01 PM

I have heard conflicting stories about the contemporary Irish language. Some say that despite all efforts it is dying while others say that there is a small but thriving speech community. Whats the deal?

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Stevangelist
Date: 14 May 01 - 03:13 PM

Dear "GUEST Dear Jim" (and to you all as a PSA)

There are Christians out here in 'CatLand. Just because you believe a certain thing does not mean that you have the right to call other people's beliefs "cults" or any other derogatory thing.

By the way, I have Irish blood in my family line (my father was Irish and my mother Lakota Sioux) and I would appreciate ANY helpful hints or directions to resources for studying Irish Gaelic for the very first time as an absolute novice.

May The Road Rise To Meet You,

Stevangelist (Slainte)

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 May 01 - 04:24 PM

Well said, Steveangelist. Those with the attitude that they have the ultimate truth and all others are idiots, heretics, or worse, are usually at the root of strife wherever it is found. It serves no purpose to denigrate anothers beliefs.

As far as studying Gaeilige (Irish) for the first time, the best way is to find a study group. There is no substitue for learning with others to speak to. Most areas of the country have classes available if one looks. If you send me a personal message on the Mudcat, or email me at [e-mail], I will do my best to help you track down a class. If that doesn't work, there are any number of tutorials available. Several are online courses. Others are available through any of the major booksellers. Some are better than others and we can explore that as well.

Le gach dea-mhéin,

Mícheál Mhor

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: death by whisky
Date: 14 May 01 - 05:43 PM

Thanks Martin .Just what I was looking for.By the way Mick,sometimes the occasional gratuitous comment can give a bit of lift to a serious discussion.Later lads..

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Brían
Date: 15 May 01 - 12:02 AM

If you're in New England, you might try:
Cumann na Gaeilge i mBoston(The Gaelic League)
P.O. Box 164
Dedham, MA 02026
Mick is right. A good group of students and a good teacher is essential. www.dailti.com offers some good resources as well as classes.
Anyone with any questions can e-mail me at:
[e-mail].

Slán go fóill, agus beidh mé caint libh aríst,

Brían.

Subject: RE: Learning Irish? Try this..
From: GUEST,Strange mixture
Date: 15 May 01 - 01:40 AM

Hey I bet the mix of Sioux and Irish is fire and more of it, would not like to tangle with that... lol suppose I better be nice.

My advice if the person is still around, do not drink Whiskey.