Lyrics & Knowledge Personal Pages Record Shop Auction Links Radio & Media Kids Membership Help
The Mudcat Cafesonny

Post to this Thread - Printer Friendly - Home
Page: [1] [2] [3]


The origin of Sea Chanteys

Related threads:
Stories/Shanties of Hjalmar Rutzebeck (20)
Shanty or Chantey? (142)
Lyr Add: Chanties of Capt. Tho. Forrest (13)
The Advent and Development of Chanties (833)
Lyr Add: Huckleberry Hunting (Pumping Chantey) (51)
Deficit of Doerflinger on Wikipedia (15)
Annotated Bibliography on Sea Shanties (9)
sea shanties (110)
A Little-Known Shanty Collection (42)
Spanish sea shanties (25)
French Shanty Site (8)
'Obscenity' in Chanties/Shanties (29)
What your favorite sea shanty? (83)
Lyr Req: One More Pull (41)
Chanties Helped Win World War I (25)
(origins) Origins: Yangtse River Shanty (32)
What exactly is a sea shanty? (26)
Sea Chantey Lyrics, MIDI tunes, & MP3's (54)
Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman (169)
Cowell Collection Shanties (4)
Info: The Shanty Book (Richard Runciman Terry) (18)
Tempo for Chanties (12)
Lyr Add: Windlass Shanty-Lincoln Colcord Rework (12)
Lyr Req: French sea shanties (40)
What is a Shanty (79)
Help: What is a 'forebitter'? (54)
Lyr Req/Add: Alabama John Cherokee (12)
Happy! - July 30 (Doerflinger) (4)
Lyr Add: Larry Marr (shanty) (1)
Lyr Add: Windlass Chantey (8)
Lyr Add: Hi Rio, Randy-o! Shanty? (4)
Watered Down Shanties (33)
Who Said - Shanty worth 5 men? (30)
L.A. Times article on S.F. chantey sing (33)
Sea Chanteys (shanteys) part two (3)
Lyr Req: Shantyman (Bob Watson) (14)
shanty sessions in U.K. (12)
New England Shanty Sessions (31)
Lyr Req: Whalen's Fate (Doerflinger version) (6)
Shanty Gathering Ideas for New England (26)
Lyr Add: Seafood Shop Chantyman's Song (5)
Chanties in Southern Maine (5)
Musical question (chantey types) (30)
Lyr Req: Strike Up the Band, Here Comes a Sailor (7)
Baggyrinkle - To Hull & Back (Shanty Festival) (58)
Lyr Req: Sea chantey:'...wouldn't do me any harm' (34)
help: Moby Dick shanty thread? (19)
Shantyfest at Mystic Seaport (3)
help a struggling student! - triple meter chant? (10)
Lyr Req: Seeking: 2 Shanties & 1 Traditional Folk (9)
Shanty background: Portland's Tunnels (32)
Rum, Sea Shanties and Women (27)
William Main Doerflinger 1909-2000 (15)


CRANKY YANKEE 27 May 01 - 01:10 PM
GUEST,chanteyranger 27 May 01 - 01:21 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 27 May 01 - 02:47 PM
CRANKY YANKEE 27 May 01 - 03:44 PM
Charley Noble 27 May 01 - 04:42 PM
SeanM 27 May 01 - 06:32 PM
GUEST,Marc Bridgham 16 Jul 01 - 07:08 AM
Dicho 16 Jul 01 - 01:52 PM
Charley Noble 16 Jul 01 - 05:52 PM
Dead Horse 01 Dec 01 - 06:17 AM
Joe Offer 11 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM
Charley Noble 23 Nov 09 - 12:58 PM
shipcmo 27 Mar 10 - 07:35 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 12 Sep 17 - 07:37 AM
Steve Gardham 12 Sep 17 - 09:51 AM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 13 Sep 17 - 08:49 PM
Share Thread
more
Lyrics & Knowledge Search [Advanced]
DT  Forum
Sort (Forum) by:relevance date
DT Lyrics:










Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 27 May 01 - 01:10 PM

MARK COHEN: About Rope, IT IS ROPE./ if you want to go back inb history, In all the old "rigging MaNUALS" sTEEL'S,. LEVERS, ETC. It is referred to as rope. I know that the US Navy calls the stuff "Line" the reason they i8nsist on this term is to impress young enlistees in boot camp that they must do things "THE NAVY WAY" unless you know of a better way, but you still do it the navy way until your suggestion goes through poroper channels. From their poiont of view, Line is just as good a name for the stuff as rope. But on a sailing vessel, If you referred to every bit or fiber cordage as "Line" yo0u are asking for misunderstanding that co

uld be disastrous. BECAUSE , MARK, NOT EVERY PIECE OF CORDAGE ON A SAILING SHIP IS A LINE. Halyards are not lines, braces are not lines, lifts are not lines, etc etc./. foot ropes and bolt ropes are not lines either. A line is the shortest distance between two points, and a line on a sailing ship moves something between these two points./ And, in the old rigging manuals, and the Merchant Marine manual (current addition) refer to these lines as ropes, as in, "Bunt line rope", "Sheet line rope", "Clew line rope, leech line rope, etc.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,chanteyranger
Date: 27 May 01 - 01:21 PM

I saw something about that on the TV game shows, "What's My Line" and "The Splice Is Right."


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 27 May 01 - 02:47 PM

charley Noble:

Wordsw and music by Jon Campbell. "Tanqueray Martini Oh is a SPOOF of sea chanteys, and was never intended to be one. Believe me, Jon Campbell knows what a chantey is furthermore, he's a genuine Mariner. Makes his living on the sea. Or, at least he did until he started teaching school a couple of years back. He was a Copmmercial Fisherman most of his adult life.

STANQUERAY MARTINI OH
words and music by jon campbell

I
We were sailing out of stanford town
With a fleet of "Criss-Craft" all around
When from up on deck the call came down
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH

II
And all the Captains and the crew
Must have the drink you can see right through
There's nothing else will really do
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH

(Chorus)
So haul the sheets back with one hand
Set your drink down if you canbrAnd never sail out of sight of land
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH

III
To Greenwich town we did put in
We being nearly out of gin
To travel on would be a sin
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH
?
IV <>br>The Captain's laid out on the floor
H*e being elected to get some more
He broke his leg tryin' to get ashore
TANQUERAY MARTINI OH
(repeat chorus)

V
The old man stirs with an iron fist
The first mate pours from a gimballed wrist
The whole crew has a 30 degree list.
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH

VI
It's 9 parts gin and one vermouth
It's the yachstman's friend and that's the truth
From Jamaica Bay to the Bay of Booth
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH
(repeat chorus)

VII
Oh the Montauk girls they look so fine
Rigged loose up front and snug behind
With a quarter board reading"Calvin Kline"
Tanqueray Martini-Oh.

VIII
All the Captains and the crew
Must have the drink you can see clear through

(Spoken)"Muffie," would you freshen up this drink? this ice is sooooo bad.
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH



CHANTEYRANGER:

I knew I was going to like you.....


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 27 May 01 - 03:44 PM

There's a world of difference between "Singing in time with the work" and "Working in time with the singing"

A chanteyman directs the tempo and timing of the work and the crew follows his rhythm. That's what his job is, COORDINATING THE EFFORTS OF MORE THAN ONE PERSON. Singing is just his tool.

"He bang she bang"

The "we're all from the railroad" line is because the "Rocking arm" Windlass uses the same mechanism (without the stepped up gear ratio) as a railroad hand car. In other words , 'THEY ARE MAKING FUN OF THEMSELVES"


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 27 May 01 - 04:42 PM

CY, where did you run across this verse, is it Jon's or someone else's?

The old man stirs with an iron fist
The first mate pours from a gimballed wrist
The whole crew has a 30 degree list.
TANQUERAY MARTINI-OH

Here's one of my new ones:

"All hands on deck!" comes the cry,
As gale force winds shred the sky,
But we stay dry 'cause we're so high
Tanqueray Martini-o!

We missed you at the Portland Chianti Sing.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: SeanM
Date: 27 May 01 - 06:32 PM

CY;

Clarification on the 'rope/line' US Navy issue.

In my experience, 'rope' was specifically used to denote wire-strand cables, and 'line', 'halyard' and the rest were used to denote anything with either natural or synthetic fiber strands.

I rather like GUEST Gareth's point on the mnemonics. Still doesn't explain one of my favorite distance problems... one 'sea song' that refers to someone taking twenty YEARS to figure out how to cross from Dublin to Devon. That's what - 100 miles? If that much? One would think that the sailor in question had other reasons than stated in the song for not going home...

M


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Marc Bridgham
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 07:08 AM

Actually the origin of shantey singing is much deeper than previously thought. It seems that the term is derived from ANT(so ch/sh, who cares?) and hints at connections to our animal brethren hitherto undreamt.

I offer the following true quote as evidence for my thesis. Bernie Krause is a world-renowned nature audio-recorder. He describes an encounter in the rainforest this way:

"We set up camp for the night, commenting on how amazed we were by life we have found and recorded here. Then just before sundown we recorded ants singing...I dropped a little lapel mike into the hole leading to their nest...At that point I switched on my recorder and discovered, much to my surprise, that they were emitting a plaintive, high pitched sound, a kind of CALL & RESPONSE. They were COORDINATING THEIR MOVEMENT THROUGH SOME KIND OF DIALOGUE, we realized..."

Pretty amazing, eh?


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Dicho
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 01:52 PM

Where did Bernie Krause publish? I would like to read it.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 Jul 01 - 05:52 PM

Well, that's all cleared up. Anyone want to start a new thread Origin of Sea Chanteys II? This one is taking too long to haul up to the main top.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Dead Horse
Date: 01 Dec 01 - 06:17 AM

O.K. So what's the origin of Sally Racket? I heard it was something to do with the Salvation Army? Apparently known as the "Sally Army" they would play their brass band and sing hynmns at some godforsaken hour on a sunday morning, just as my dad was having a lie-in, and he would complain of the *sally racket*. The difference between Shanty & Chanty is the same as that between World Trade Centre & World Trade Center. Depends on your own native language. We brits don't complain at frenchmen spelling chantey, cos it's their lingo. But I'm afraid we object to you colonials misusing OUR language:-) BUT the way a word is pronounced can be important. It denotes age, geography, local dialect, and also helps the rhyme, dammit. (smiley again) I'm sure Ogg, in his corracle, gave rhythmic grunts as he pulled on his paddle, but no call & response cos his boat wasn't big enough for two. So there.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:18 PM

Here's something Cranky Yankee asked me to post. It comes to you straight from Rhode Island (by way of California).
-Joe Offer-
I hereby, and without reservation, renounce any claim to the title, "chanteyman", nor will I, in future, put forth any definition of the word, "chantey", nor will I attempt to spell it correctly.
It seems that people who love music, as I do, and derive great pleasure from its performance have an entirely different concept of what these two terms mean. Some of these fine people have taken umbrage, and rightly so, at the way I've been using these two words.

"ARS GRATIA ARTIS" art for arts sake has nothing to do with what I am about to propose, until later when I again use this phrase.

               THE FOLLOWING
IS AN ETIRELY FICTITIOUS HYPOTHESIS

In the last three centuries, there has been a great demand for "Boxes" throughout the world. The companies that made boxes were known as "Boxing companies" and the people hired to make the boxes were known as "BOXERS".
The way boxes were made (hypothetically) absolutely required a good deal of cooperation between boxers when they assembled boxes. There was a standard operation procedure or "SOP" for these assembly methods. Anyone who's ever been in the military knows what "SOP" means.
The price that a boxing company demanded for its boxes depended entirely upon the number of boxers a company employed.
For one reason or another, American and British boxing companies began hiring boxers from a different part of the world. Let's call this different part of the world, "Gussie" and its people were known as "Gusses"
The gussers had a method doing SOP that was known as co-ordination. Coordination required fewer boxers than the old SOP methods and produced the same quality of boxes. Coordination was immediately accepted by the boxers and boxing companies, who could then employ fewer boxers to do the same job, thereby lowering the price of their boxes. Boxers who were good at coordination were paid extra money to use their expertise when doing SOP. THEY WERE KNOWN AS COORDINATORS.
Did the boxers spend their leisure hours, at the local pubs, coordinating? Don't hold your breath.
However, there is a great deal of good art inherent in coordination, and, the general public got a good deal of pleasure in coordinating and watching the process, aside from it's use in the manufacture of boxes.
The artists who performed coordination were, of course, known as coordinators.
ARS GRATIA ARTIS? You bet your life.
Now, substitute terms as follows:

Shipping companies for boxing companies

Shipping for boxing.

Sailors for boxers.

Singing for coordinating

and above all CHANTEYMAN (shantyman) for coordinator.

There is far greater musical expression and enjoyable singing in the performances of artistic Chanteymen than ever was heard on board a ship. Shipboard chantey singing is dull and boring, seldom involving more than one verse and chorus per job and sometimes involving the same line over and over again.   Except for scholarly endeavor I don't recommend it as a "spectator sport". It's only by coincidence that I am a boxer-coordinator as well as a sailor-chanteyman. My shipboard chanteying is as dull and boring as it could possibly be. But aside from that, my singing in public is as good as anyone else's. Louis Killen is not the world's greatest sailor but he is a tremendous performer of sea chanteys putting a lot of nautical flair into his performance. It was Louis' singing that inspired me to take up sailing to find out what sea chanteys are all about. My conclusion is: on board ship in actual use Pfooey (and that includes me). At a chantey sing or gathering I heartily recommend it.

African sailors deserve the credit for starting this and introducing the tradition on board ships though they are, in no way, solely responsible for its evolution into what we now call "Sea Chanteys".
The Great Huddie Ledbetter's (Leadbelly) recording of "Haul away Joe", though he did it properly for shipboard use, is a good example of how bad a chantey can sound when in actual use.

Nobody seems to want to hear about the multitude of free Africans, mostly sailors, who settled in the Seaport towns of North America by choice. The civil rights activists (of which I am one) with few exceptions, only want to hear about the horrors of slavery. I'm going to try to correct this situation. Don't yell at me, should I succeed, for emphasizing the African contribution for the development of the sea chantey.

Sincerely

Jody Gibson


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Nov 09 - 12:58 PM

refresh!


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: shipcmo
Date: 27 Mar 10 - 07:35 AM

refresh


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 07:37 AM

Okay. I've read all the shanty threads and it is my considered opinion you lot have no more clue about the history of nautical work songs than the history of the modern calypso.

Your first hint should have been the first and last lines in Moby Dick.

Had you been born Catholic sailors you would still be singing the κελεύειυ, celeusma, celeuma, saloma ad nauseum just like you had been doing for the previous twenty five (25) centuries or one hundred (100) generations... give or take.

But you are not Catholic sailors. You sing White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant (WASP) nautical work songs, whether indigenous, adopted or appropriated; and you started labeling your music "shanties" c.1850AD.

But that's all it is, your popular culture's name, your tag, your label to match your consumer & supplier. Any claims to naval science or architecture are false and should be rebuked as same. Art is not science.

And while we're about it, sea shanties are no more informed by chattel slave culture than any other Euro-American popular form; nor any less for that matter. Twenty five (25) centuries is also one hundred (100) generations of slavery… give or take.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 09:51 AM

>>>>Any claims to naval science or architecture are false<<<<

Okay, matey, we're only interested in how it might have started using the English language and how it might have evolved. Nobody's claiming to have all the answers. We're looking for contemporary references to enhance our knowledge and we're grateful for your contribution, but no need to be so disparaging.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate

Subject: RE: The origin of Sea Chanteys
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Sep 17 - 08:49 PM

Steve: ...we're only interested in how it might have started using the English language and how it might have evolved.

By studying African-American slave culture and West African religion? Why? Neither you nor English are West African.

Assume Melville read the Prophet Jeremiah and the works of Jean Calvin. Capt. Forrest certainly knew his Martial.

Your religious, maritime and classical arts literature all use one and the same word to describe it for the last 2500 years. Phoenician-Greco-Roman-Judeo-Christian nautical work songs were being chanted in African ears, and by African voices, two millennia before the Middle Passage.


And Shanties?

You know what the most popular Protestant music form was for most of the 19th century.

You know the day, month and year the so-called "bulgines" were patented and the years the songbooks were published. In some cases you know individual artist and performance dates. Documented with a high degree of assurance, validated.

Those English lyrics were written by White, Anglo-Saxon, Protestant, male "Ethiopians" not "African-Americans" or "Caribbeans."

An exceptional or unique way to address static and dynamic friction on a hoist? Need your data not Yoruba.


Post - Top - Home - Printer Friendly - Translate
  Share Thread:
More...

Reply to Thread
Subject:  Help
From:
Preview   Automatic Linebreaks   Make a link ("blue clicky")


Mudcat time: 23 September 2:01 AM EDT

[ Home ]

All original material is copyright © 1998 by the Mudcat Café Music Foundation, Inc. All photos, music, images, etc. are copyright © by their rightful owners. Every effort is taken to attribute appropriate copyright to images, content, music, etc. We are not a copyright resource.