Subject: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Jon W. Date: 05 Dec 97 - 11:01 AM This is an offshoot of the "Erin's Green Shore" thread. Alice of Montana mentioned "The Red Haired Man's Wife" as being an allegorical song. Barry asked her to clarify. I butted in with this: I'm going to try my hand at literary analysis here. If you take the Red Haired Man to be England (the Redcoats), the wife to be Northern Ireland, and the singer to be Ireland (from the Sinn Fein point of view), the song reflects the current political situation rather well. The version I have is from the Boys of the Lough album "Wish You Were Here." Cathall McConnell, the singer, does the first three verses essentially the same as the version in the DT, but the last verse is completely different:
Oh my darlin' sweet Phoenix, if now you could be my own, In other songs in the DT, I've seen "Phoenix Park" as a place name, apparently somewhere in Ireland. If someone could tell where exactly this place is, it might shed a little more light on the subject. One problem I see with this analysis is that I suspect the song was written long before Irish independence--or perhaps it refers to an earlier partitioning of Ireland? Any more information would be interesting to read. |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Alice Date: 05 Dec 97 - 11:45 AM What I have to offer on this subject comes from Herbert Hughs, who collected and arranged four volumes of "Irish Country Songs". In the preface to the first volume, (1909), he wrote, "Musical scholars, as well as political experts, are apt to forget that the history of Ireland is not the history of England. They forget that over a thousand years ago Ireland was the most highly educated country in Western Europe, and that even in her decadence, her contemporary literature and folk-music still have qualities that are peculiar to her, and do not quickly respond to the influence of antipathetic forces."... in volume III, which contains THE RED HAIRED MAN'S WIFE, I quoted parts of his preface of 1934 regarding allegorical names for Ireland. (This is in the previous thread.) Hughes referred to Katharine Tynan's poem. The English words to the air THE RED HAIRED MAN'S WIFE, were written by Katharine Tynan. He makes the note under ROISIN DUBH (Little Black Rose), "Roisin Dubh *pronounced Rosheen Doov, was one of the many secret or allegorical names by which Ireland was referred to in bardic literature and folk-lore. See note on 'The Red Haired Man's Wife'". Here are her words, as written in the arrangement of the music by Herbert Hughes.
THE RED HAIRED MAN'S WIFE
Though full as 'twill hold of gold the harvest has smiled Well, there it is. Rather awkward and hard to follow the train of thought, so it is no wonder other verses have been written to the tune. Maybe someone else can enlighten us more on Katherine (Katharine?) Tynan. My interpretation is a lament for Ireland being "sold" off by kindred and friends (traitors) in a loveless marriage to England. Alice in Montana |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Alice Date: 05 Dec 97 - 06:22 PM ...later. A quick search on the net brings up quite a bit about Katharine Tynan, born in Dublin in 1861, married to Henry Hinkson, a lawyer and author. She was a major Irish poet of her times. Also wrote SHEEP AND LAMBS. alice, mt |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Bruce O. Date: 05 Dec 97 - 07:03 PM The version of "The Red-haired man's wife" in DT is incomplete. Jon W's verse is the last of 7 of a copy in Colm O Lochlainn's 'Irish Street Ballads', #97. This seems to be no relation to Katherine Tynan's song. There are three versions of the tune in the Stanford-Petrie collection, all collected before 1867. The song doesn't look much like an allegory to me.
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Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Jon W. Date: 05 Dec 97 - 08:12 PM Well there's a little bit of a relationship - both mention a letter being written. I would have to conclude that Katharine Tynan loosely based her allegorical song on the older love song. Her bit about going to France reminds me of the Stuarts before and after the Jacobite rebellions (which probably had more "moral" support in Ireland than in Scotland, them bein' Catholics 'n' all). |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Barry Date: 05 Dec 97 - 10:04 PM More verses, from the singing of Sean Cannon Ah, remember the day that I gave to you my true heart When you solemnly sore that no more we ever would part But your mind's like the the ocean each notion has taken her filght And left bewailing the red haired man's wife. I straight took my way next day through a shady green grove And crossed purling streams where sweet birds mostly do rove Thence I was conveyed to where nature boasts with her pride Where I stood all amazed & gazed on the red haired man's wife Dan Milner, in his Bonnie Bunch Of Roses, states this was influenced by the older Gaelic song "Bean An Fhir Ruaidh". Any further direction & input, please. Barry |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Bruce O. Date: 06 Dec 97 - 02:56 PM There is another version of the tune in the complete Petrie collection, #360. The tune is entitled "The roving Pedlar", but a foot note adds that it is also called "The red-haired man's wife". In the heading it is also stated that this is the original tune for "The Boys of Kilkenny", but, though similar, it is not the same tune as that on the single sheet song with music that is thought to be the original "The Boys of Kilkenny". |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Martin Ryan Date: 07 Dec 97 - 07:43 PM There is indeed an older song in Irish called "Bean an fhir rua" ("The red-haired man's wife"). Hugh Shields discusses it briefly in "Narrative Singing in Ireland". He interprets it simply as referring to the love of a woman before she married someone else.He would be well aware of the allegorical possibilities. I don't remember the Irish words or their literal meaning but will look into it when I get a chance. Regards |
Subject: Lyr Add: BEAN AN FHIR RUA / RED-HAIRED MAN'S WIFE From: Barry Finn Date: 25 Jan 00 - 09:37 PM A while back Frank Harte heard me singing this song when he was guest singer at our local singer's session. He said there was one more verse to the version I sang. He said he'd e-mail it to me. I'll post his reply. Barry Dear Barry, Well you wrote to me on 13 august 1999 and it is only now that i am getting around to replying to your query on the Red haired Man's wife. to make up for the long delay I am sending you three different versions of te song. The first is the original Irish version with a literal translation, I always find this interesting if only to see how the version I sing differs from the original. The second is the version that I sing and the third is more of a poetic translation by Katherine Tynan. It is a song I particularly like, I hope you will think that the delay was maybe worthwhile.
Slan............Frank
BEAN AN FIR RUA.
Flawless maiden with the nice colors in your cheeks
O rachaidh me sios seal miosa no coicis ar cuairt
O I'll go down {away, I guess} for a month or a fortnight on a visit
Da chuirfi me sios i bpriosun dubh dorcha cruaidh
If you put me in a black dark harsh prison
Ta crann ins an garrai a bha/sann air an blath bui
There's a tree in the garden on which grows a yellow flower
RED HAIRED MAN'S WIFE. 1.
Ye muses divine, combine and lend me your aid,
A letter I will send, by a friend, down to the seashore,
Ah remember the day that I gave unto you my true heart,
I straight took my way, next day, by a shady green grove,
I offered a favour and sealed it all with my own hand,
My darling sweet Phoenix 'tis along with me you should roam,
May my life never end nor my yearning for passion abate,
RED HAIRED MAN'S WIFE. 2.
Though full as 'twill hold of gold the harvest has smiled,
That fond valentine of mine a letter I sent,
Oh, child and sweetheart, their art had you but withstood,
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Subject: Lyr Add: BEAN AN FHIR RUA From: Áine Date: 26 Jan 00 - 12:05 AM Here's Frank's version with the fadas put in:
Bean An Fhir Rua |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: GUEST,Neil Comer Date: 26 Jan 00 - 05:15 PM There is a myriad of information on this song in Brian O'Rourkes book, The Pale Rainbow/ An Dubh ina bhán- Irish Academic Press 1990. Too much to write here Slán |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Mbo Date: 26 Jan 00 - 08:48 PM Hey....I'm not married! --Mbo |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: GUEST,Jamesize Date: 01 Nov 07 - 06:12 PM I am looking for a red haired wife before I pass away I am but only 64 and from washington a Macdonald You may know.But a red haired wife I am looking for. Eyes of green like the isles of your a wife I am looking for. If you happen to see her Let her know there is a beautiful home awaiting her.She needes be about 6 feet or more, thin I say again thin and no more.The made does the cooking,cleaning, but the wife I am looking for only needs to be for me not for a dog, horse of corse. This is what I am looking for... Jim mn1254@yahoo.com if you happen to see her send her this note,let me see the picture. and I will come. |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Barry Finn Date: 01 Nov 07 - 09:39 PM Dear Jamesize You don't have a romantic bone in your body & from the above post your blood probably runs a little cold too. At 64 you haven't a notion about how to court & your song writing skills lack all the more. Please sing one of the above songs in the future & next time you come a-courting here leave your pen at home. Barry BTW Aine, thanks for your favor. |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Peace Date: 01 Nov 07 - 10:56 PM Take it easy on him, Barry. He wrote all the way from Snohomish, Washington. |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: GUEST,songster Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:08 AM I have at least five versions of 'The Red Haired Man's wife' in my collection, one I remember singing around the late 70's in a session and Frank Harte wrote out the last verse which I didn't sing. The next night at the same singing weekend Kevin Mitchel sang a slightly different version. All the content was there but arranged slightly different. I have since heard various renditions of this ballad with a line changed here and there but basically similar to the original. I remember being asked to sing this ballad at my cousin's wedding (who happened to be marring a man with red hair) but was stopped before I even began, it appears this is what is known as a 'Curse Ballad' I asked Frank about this years later and he told me that he was once told this himself but couldn't shed any light on why it was. Maybe someone out there in 'muddyland' may have heard of this and can explain. What I have picked up from a man whom I heard singing it (an Ulster singer, Jackie Boyce) was that, he was told that the person in the song was trying to coax the lady in question away from the husband (who had red hair) and to run away with him, BUT that he himself, was the red haired man! I KNOW! Jackie was baffled as well! Apparently the 'red hair' has a BIG thing to do with it. Like meeting a red haired woman on the road (brings bad luck) so in this case the man is coaxing the wife away from 'HIMSELF' hmmmmm! confusing or what? Has anyone else heard of this or any other curse ballads? songster hope I haven't confused you too much. heh heh heh (wicked laugh) |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 02 Nov 07 - 05:19 AM Sounds like somebody was pulling your leg. People often get strange and silly ideas about perfectly ordinary songs; when they repeat them as 'fact' they do a serious disservice to our understanding. If there is any allegory here, as suggested when this old thread was new ten years ago, then I'm a Dutchman. |
Subject: RE: The Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Snuffy Date: 02 Nov 07 - 09:40 AM And there are more than enough "strange and silly ideas" about The Dutchman to patch his trousers. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: GUEST,kayti sullivan Date: 25 Mar 12 - 05:56 PM I was looking for this song a few years ago, and mudcat had nothing, I'm so happy to find it again with the missing bits. I am curious about the alternate melodies that exist, I only know the one my mother used. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: AmyLove Date: 29 Dec 15 - 09:56 PM Alice mentioned - Herbert Hughes, who collected and arranged four volumes of "Irish Country Songs" - you can view and download these four volumes here. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: AmyLove Date: 29 Dec 15 - 10:14 PM And there's some information about Bean an Fhir Rua at Joe Éinniú's (Joe Heaney) site, including him singing six verses of the song (lyrics included) here. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: AmyLove Date: 13 Dec 16 - 06:35 PM Description of the track on Six Days In Down (Bob Brozman/John McSherry/Dónal O'Connor/Stephanie Makem) (found here ) 8. Bean An Fhir Ruaidh (trad, arr Brozman / Makem / O'Connor) Instruments: vocals, two Kona Hawaiian guitars 'Bean An Fhir Ruaidh' ('The Red Haired Man's Wife') is a story of a man's unrequited love for a married woman. Many versions of this song exist throughout Ireland but, in the most well-known version, the lyrics are attributed to the writings of Cathal Buí Mac Giolla Ghunna, the Ulster poet, and Riocaird Bairéad, a writer from Bangor Erris, County Mayo. The nineteenth-century Tyrone novelist William Carleton noted that his mother was once asked to sing the English version of the song. She said, 'I'll sing it for you, but the English words and the air are like a quarrelling man and his wife – the Irish melts into the tune but the English doesn't.' |
Subject: RE: Bean an Fhir Ruaidh From: Felipa Date: 30 Jul 20 - 10:39 AM song in Donegal Irish, unaccompanied, by Doimnic Mac Giolla Bhríde: https://doimnicmacgiollabhrde.bandcamp.com/track/bean-an-fhir-ruaidh from the album "Sona do Cheird" by Doimnic Mac Giolla Bhríde Bean an Fhir Ruaidh Ó is táilliúr óg aerach mé ’ deanamh éadaigh i dtigh an fhir ruaidh nó go dtug mo chroí spéis dona béilín meala gan ghruaim agus thug mo chroí spéis dona béilín ba bhinne ná an chuach, is a charad mo chléibh, dá n-éalófa liom ón fhear rua. Nuair a théim suas ar cuairt go Contae na Mí is cluinim an fear rua á luadh le rúnsearc mo chroí, nuair a chluinim ní fhaighim suaimhneas ná néal de chodladh na hoích’ ’s gurb í bean an fhir ruaidh a rinne gual domhsa in aice mo chroí. A bhruinneall gan smál a bhfuil na dealraíocha deasa in dó ghruaidh, An fiosach thú a fhiafraí caidé a chloífeadh aigneadh an fhir ruaidh? Ní iarrfainnse aon spás ar an Ardrí atá i bhFlaitheas na Naomh Ach an t-aon amharc amháin a fháil ar ghrá geal mo chroí. Tá crann ins an gharradh a bhfásann air an bláth buí,-’S nuair a leagaim mo lámh air is láidir nach scoilteann mo chroí. -Ní cheilfinnse ar aon neach caidé an fáth a bhfuil ormsa gruaim,- Ainneoin eaglaise ’s Parthais ,’s í grá mo chroí bean an fhir ruaidh. Dá gcuirfí mé síos i bpríosún dhubh dhorcha chruaidh, na boltaí ar mo chaolchorp agus na mílte glas as sin suas, órú d’éireochainn de rúchladh mar a d’éireochadh an eala ón chuan Ar acht suí síos seal oíche le bean an fhir ruaidh. from Sona do Cheird, released November 20, 2015 Story connected to the song, told in Irish by John Ghráinne Ó Duibheannaigh (Devenny) http://www.rannnafeirste.com/bean-an-fhir-ruaidh-an-sceal (includes some non-standard spellings to adhere to dialect of the storyteller). Basically it says that a fair haired man and a red-haired man were both in love with the tailor's daughter, and that she married the red-haired man. Both men were employed by the tailor, and the red-haired man planted stolen food in his colleague's bag and got him in trouble. The falsely accused man spent 6 months in prison and so the tailor's daughter married the red-haired apprentice. Upon release from jail, the fair-haired man went of to America. When he returned as an old man, young people didn't know him and older people didn't recognise him, and he got employment in the house of the red-haired man. It was then he wrote this song. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: GUEST,Peter Laban Date: 30 Jul 20 - 12:21 PM There's a version of this song in Derek Bell and Liam Ó Conchubar's 'Traditional songs of the North of Ireland' ( Wolfhound press, 1999, ISBN 0-86327-630-x)pp 60-62 In Irish and English provided alongside. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Thompson Date: 31 Jul 20 - 01:39 PM There's a translation by Douglas Hyde, Poem No 85 in The Oxford Book of Irish Verse, an anthology by Donagh MacDonagh and Lennox Robinson which is to be found on archive.org. It's called The Red Man's Wife and starts: 'Tis what they say, Thy little heel fits in a shoe, 'Tis what they say, Thy little mouth kisses well, too. Tis what they say, Thousand loves that you leave me to rue; That the tailor went the way That the wife of the Red man knew. It goes on for a few more verses - excellent, but I don't feel like typing it up. Maybe someone else does. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Thompson Date: 17 Aug 20 - 01:14 PM Just came across a reference to this, with a tune, in Poets and Poetry of Munster by James Clarence Mangan. After the tune it says: == The Red-Haired Man's Wife The following is the first stanza of Bean an Fhir Ruadh (The Red-Haired Man's Wife), which is quite common among the Munster peasantry: Do thugas naoi mí a b-priosún ceangailte cruaidh, Bulta air mo chom 's mile glas as sud suas! Do thugas sigh mar do thabharfadh ar aladh cois cuain D'fhonn a bheith sinte sios le Bean an Fhir Ruadh. I spent nine months in prison fettered and bound, My body chained and secured with locks, Bounded as the swan on the wave In hopes to sit down beside the Red-Haired Man's Wife. == He's being a little tactful with the translation there, it's really in hopes to lie down beside her. |
Subject: RE: Origin: Red Haired Man's Wife (more info needed) From: Felipa Date: 09 Feb 21 - 08:52 AM on 02 Nov 07, guest "songster" asked about Bean an Fhir Rua being called a "curse song". I have read the following reference at www.duchas.ie It was collected by a school child in Co Kerry as part of a class project. Similar collections were made at other schools as well. “My mother told me that her father, who is a long time dead, knew a certain man who got sick.[The priest was sent for but in those days he had to walk so it took time.He was going as fast as he could when he was surprised by a sound of someone singing a wonderful song. The voice was so beautiful that he stopped to listen, forgetting for the moment his urgent mission. By the time he reached the house, the sick man had already died. The priest thought then that he had heard the voice of a demon, singing]to keep him from preparing the sick man so that he would die without the priest. It was strongly supposed the song they sung was called the red haired man's wife. The priest afterwards cursed the song they sung." |
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