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Will Mudcat Survive?
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Subject: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 May 01 - 01:36 PM Like many of the regulars here, I post to the threads almost daily, and this place is a real part of my world. But a couple of recent comments from Max and Bert got my attention. On a radio show a couple weeks ago Max said "if we're not bankrupt by the end of the year I'll be amazed". Now Max is kind of a kidder, so I'm not sure if he was serious or not. But I also read in a thread where Bert (who never jokes) said "suggest the Mudcat operating software to other sites. It just might mean the survival of Mudcat." So, part of this thread is a question to Max and Bert : Is Mudcat's survival in question? If that is the case, my second question is to the members of the Forum : what can we do to insure its survival? |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Mrrzy Date: 17 May 01 - 01:43 PM Oh, please don't tell me we're in danger! I don't have enough $$$ to send... or programming skills to offer... could you use anything else? |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: kendall Date: 17 May 01 - 01:45 PM Money makes the mare go. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: DougR Date: 17 May 01 - 01:45 PM Well, Lonesome E. J. I'm sure they would welcome cash contributions. Most folks could afford to send something, I would think. Donations are not tax deductible, but the cause is good so what the hey? DougR |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: katlaughing Date: 17 May 01 - 01:51 PM LeeJ, thanks for bringing this up. I missed both references, so appreciate the notice. What can we do to help, Max? |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: DougR Date: 17 May 01 - 01:59 PM I would think the first thing we need to know is the size of the problem (read how much money is needed)to keep the Mudcat operating, at least at its present level. Then we could consider ways to meet the need. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Allan C. Date: 17 May 01 - 02:08 PM I second the notion. We have had a few discussions like this one elsewhere - even outside of the threads. The lack of accurate information makes such discussions fruitless, though. Max, you have just got to come clean and tell us exactly, precisely what you need. A whole lot of folks are goal oriented. It helps them to know what the target is and what degree of difficulty is involved in hitting that target. For instance, you once mentioned in passing that the Mudcat could really use a splitter something-or-other. I have no idea what it was that you actually said except that the item costs around $2,000. Is this the target? Do you need more? How much? Please give us an idea of the problem so that we can help. Fumbling around in the dark is only fun under certain circumstances. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 01 - 02:14 PM I think the time has come for banner ads and for bucks to Mudcat for affiliated site clicks from here to them. All we need is an advisory board to pass judgement on which companies to allow. I mean, how many times do we have to recommend Elderly for instruments, in the threads, before we acknowledge among ourselves that we send them biz and that it would be fair to take back a little change for it? We would not have to become net sluts, to do this judiciuosly... we would not have to take ads from companies we don;t think are good to do business with. Mudcat and DT have a wide reputation for quality content and design. I go look for new lyrics and what do I find-- links back to here. With a little statistical information from Max about the number of hits per hour here, and a search on the name ELDERLY alone, this could be off and running. Could one of the mirrors be set up banner-free as an option for people who just can;t stand them? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Charley Noble Date: 17 May 01 - 02:20 PM I'm all ears. It's been a nice voyage so far but I never had a clue who was navigating and what was used for fuel. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 May 01 - 02:24 PM Well said, especially what Allen posted. If there is some kind of crisis, we need to know. If the need is more long-term and ongoing, we need that info too. Pledge drives seem to be effective for specific projects, but Wizzy's ad ideas might make more sense otherwise. With the volume of hits and the reputation of the Mudcat, Max should have a VERY valuable product here. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 May 01 - 02:31 PM Here's a radical concept... Suppose Mudcat Users had the opportunity to be Mudcat Investors? Could shares be sold in Mudcat as a corporate entity (hold your fire out there!)? If Mudcatters were shareholders in the website, I am betting some interesting money-making concepts would be forthcoming. This would undoubtedly entail the loss of the Mudcat's non-profit status, but is it worth looking at? |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Jim Krause Date: 17 May 01 - 02:33 PM Gosh, I don't think I could stand the thought of the Mudcat going the way of the dinosaur. Say it ain't so, Shoeless Joe! If it's cash you need, Max, I could send you a few bucks, and hang the tax deduction. Jim |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Joe Offer Date: 17 May 01 - 02:37 PM Well, the thread title is kind of alarming, and I don't think I'd get too alarmed. Contributions help a lot to allow Max to run Mudcat, but the basic survival of Mudcat is dependent on the survival of Max's company, Onstagemedia. If the company folds, Mudcat will fold. That's the way of the world. There doesn't seem to be any indication that Onstagemedia will fold, but it would not be wise for Max to post information about the health of his company on the Internet. I don't think it's fair for us to ask Max for that information. I suppose we could set up Mudcat as a separate entity and have a board of directors and a paid staff and advertising and all that, but I think I prefer the operation we have now, even though it has somewhat of a risk of shutting down. What we have now is a Benevolent and Enlightened Monarchy, ruled by His Maxship. His Maxship does a helluva lot better job of running this joint than any committee or board of directors could do, so I'd like to see things continue as they are, for as long as possible. If it got to that point where Max was no longer able to operate Mudcat, then it would be time to discuss things. The Digital Tradition will survive, and there will be a home for it on the Web somewhere. Most probably, a discussion forum will share space with it, since the Forum has worked so well here. In the meantime, I'd rather not make like Chicken Little and run around saying that the sky is falling. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Jim Krause Date: 17 May 01 - 02:44 PM Thanks, Joe for the words of comfort. Jim |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: MMario Date: 17 May 01 - 02:45 PM Well - a little over a year ago Max said $100 a month in donations wouldn't hurt. I suspect $200 a month would be better - and split among the number of people who come here, that breaks down to some pretty small change. At about that time the MudCat had been in existance about 4 years and had had a grand total of about $2000 in donations. - MOST of which had come in very shortly before that grand total. I've been told that very few people take advantage of the links to Amazon and Camsco, and the mudcat on-line store stuff. But don't forget, every little bit helps. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Jim Dixon Date: 17 May 01 - 02:46 PM I think the software that runs Mudcat is great software, and with a few judicious changes to the graphics, it could work equally well to host a discussion forum on gardening, cooking, home repair, or any other topic that a lot of people are interested in. In other words, if selling the software is an option, they ought to do it. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: kendall Date: 17 May 01 - 02:47 PM I dont need to know Max's Dunn & Bradstreet rating. I just send a donation each year. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Jim Krause Date: 17 May 01 - 02:52 PM OK I'd be willing to put my money where my modem is. How do I make the check out, and where do I send it? Jim |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: MMario Date: 17 May 01 - 02:58 PM The Mudcat Cafe 5 West Gay St. Suite A West Chester, PA 19380 |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 May 01 - 03:03 PM Thanks, Joe. And I wasn't trying to ring an alarm bell or ask Max to give us a financial report. I do want him to know we are concerned, and that we're here to help. Sometimes I think we assume that this site is just magically here, and we think little enough about what goes into the maintenance and sustenance of it. At least I am certainly guilty of that. And if the site ever DOES reach a financial crisis, I hope that Max will be straightforward about it with us. Because we would certainly lend a hand. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Jim Krause Date: 17 May 01 - 03:15 PM Y'know LEJ, I always did kinda sorta wonder what was really behind the Mudcat Cafe. I just barged right on in a couple of years back without asking too many questions. Typical of me. Jim |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: John Hardly Date: 17 May 01 - 04:07 PM I will take the time I would have wast..spent some evening (early morning--by the blue glow of the monitor, eyes like two piss-holes in the snow staring blankly) and instead make a specific pot (maybe on a regular basis) and when it sells I'll use the address provided by MMario above (Not mario above, heavenly as he might...oh hell, I mean the address above). Maybe this will save me from myself... |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: GUEST Date: 17 May 01 - 04:16 PM The fact that neither Max nor Bert have posted in this thread says a lot. The programming isn't that tricky if you know what you're doing. (not withstanding the nice touches that Max has added) Server space is getting cheaper all the time. Mudcat will survive as long as Max wants it to. If he gets bored lots of techies would be pleased to take over. Server space gets cheaper by the day |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: katlaughing Date: 17 May 01 - 04:21 PM John Hardly, how about selling a pot here in the Mudcat Auction? I'd love to see your work, either way. Any of us can also donate, electronically, by clicking on the fish jumping out of the banjo up top and scrolling down to the blue cliquey for doing so. It's fun, safe, and easy. If one banks online one can also designate a specific amount to be sent automatically from their account every month, directly to the Mudcat. Or, even if you don't bank online, you can still do this through your bank. NPR helps people set that up for all of the time. It's their bread and butter. kat |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Bert Date: 17 May 01 - 04:23 PM Onstage Media, the company which supports Mudcat, is in the business of building websites for people and companies. Business is slow at the moment. What the company needs - is work, we need jobs coming in. We can handle anything from a simple website through to a full company intranet with database and internet commerce. If you know of anyone anywhere who needs a website or needs a forum such as this, tell them about us and get them in touch with Max. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: DougR Date: 17 May 01 - 04:42 PM Thanks Joe, and Bert. I know more now about the operation of the mudcat than I ever have. I thought it was a completely separate operation from Max's business. It was never clear to me what type of business he is in. Personally, I'm not the least bit interested in seeing Max's Dunn and Bradstreet report or anyother kind of financial report. All I wanted to know was how critical the problem is, and how much was needed to cure it. Like Kendall, I just send an annual contribution. Max, perhaps before you make asides about a crisis on the radio show you should preface them with "BS". :>) DougR
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Charley Noble Date: 17 May 01 - 05:11 PM All good discussion, and some of it might be incorporated into "What is Mudcat" if it's not there already... |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 01 - 05:43 PM The thing is, internet discussion "fora" were a huge thing for a bit, as lots and lots of e-businesses used them in the hope of increasing their own site traffic. With the slump in e-biz in general there was a corresponding slump in discussion sections of their sites, and there has been quite a ripple through the sector of the e-commerce industry for which Max holds many viable solutions. The trick now is to market the product Max showcases through the Mudcat-- it is in one respect like a giant demo site for his skills-- and get it into the hands of the companies that survived the paring down of e-commerce. To get them using the slickest structure for the things they've decided a forum can do for them. To deal with the realities they have discovered now that the e-commerce-baby is potty-trained and speaking in full sentences. You see, the real money for max is not in sites that discuss BS or politics, etc., or anything topical you can think of-- it is on Product User's discussions, product line by product line, wherever product users can be thought to benefit from trading info and support about either:
<> the product line What I need to know to make a difference in this area is WHO IT IS in these companies or organizations who should hear about Mudcat-- is it the site owner, the product manager, etc.-- what role in an organization is able to hear that they ought to ditch what they finally think they have running right, or the webmaster they have cultivated or who holds them hostage to his/her knowledge... In short, if you think the chats here about "Mudcat Improvements" are occasionally fraught with invested feelings, think how much more invested are the people in the commercial end of e-discussion. It isn't enough just to post in every forum you encounter something they can only be expected to hear as, "OUR place is better than YOUR place" or "Why dont'cha....." Because they all have worked hard to build what they have, and they've "always done it this way." And they are all overworkled and underpaid and carrying too large a load on a daily basis. And worried about being squeezed out of their marketing niche AND their place in e-biz. To market Mudcat-type software is different from marketing Mudcat itself, obviously-- and to do it will require knowing what are the needs and barriers the customers have to deal with, and how Max's software will solve more problems than it creates and open more opportunities than cans of worms. I hope Max will share some of his industry knowledge with us all so we can incorporate it in our efforts to help. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 01 - 06:03 PM Wait-- what I know about any of this is just the tip of the iceberg... and the waters are wide, deep, and cold. You can dive in for yourself, and here's one route in: Their bi-monthly e-mail newsletter covers current business trends and happenings in online communities across the Web. It's always full of articles and links to more articles elsewhere. Of course they see things from their own vested view, but there is enough to get an initial orientation on the environment Max must deal with. ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Burke Date: 17 May 01 - 06:19 PM John Hardly, I second what kat said, auction the pot here. MMario auctioned a shawl last week that went for over $100 for Mudcat. I was out of the bidding at about half that, but when I was calculating my bid I did think in terms of both the item I wanted & the fact that it was a contribution. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 01 - 06:19 PM ... and their site has added a new feature since I was there last, but they do not seem to know anything about Max, Mudcat, or Onstage Media. So Max-- check this: REGISTER YOUR FORUM AT ONLINE COMMUNITY REPORT Hmmm.... is all the publicity ever done on Mudcat and Onstage collected together anywhere? Hmmmm.... ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Lonesome EJ Date: 17 May 01 - 07:23 PM Good comments Susan! |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Jon Freeman Date: 17 May 01 - 07:35 PM Much of my assesment regarding forums ties in line with the anonymous guest and I'm not sure about the future of forums in that they are getting easier to implement and there even seem to be a number of fairly robust free products starting. On thing we can all do though is be aware of what services Onstage Media offer and if oppertunities arise, to reccommend them to others. On thing I do feel certain of is that any such reccomendation would be pointing people to a completely honest company who would give the best service they possibly could. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: wysiwyg Date: 17 May 01 - 08:19 PM OCR appears to be a bit of a competitor to Onstage, but that should be no barrier to capitalizing on all their research and various posted information! If they are smart they will offer max an alliance! [singsong]... I know what makes Max's software the beh-est..... nyah nyah!! I have discovered THE SECRET! It's right in front of us! Bwahahahahaahhhhh! Sure be funny if I can shift this matter with this crappy smoky lil 486! *G*G*G*G* (giggling madly) Come to our next MudGather for details! Hahahaahhhhh!!!! ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: alison Date: 17 May 01 - 08:55 PM just a little suggestion...... a $10 donation gets you a calendar..... of course if you are able to donate more than $10....... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: dick greenhaus Date: 17 May 01 - 09:20 PM Mudcat exists because a vary small number of people donate a fairly large amount of work and a moderate amount of money to keep it existing. Neither Max nor I (nor the others I've talked to) are trying to beg for donations, but I have continually been amazed at how few of the proposed money-making schemes seem to produce anything in the way of income. We set up a Mudcat Shop, which offers music at competitive prices---almost no customers. We've had Bron graciously produce a good CD and offer it to Mudcatters for 5 pounds (or 8 bucks in the US), with all proceeds going to Mudcat---virtually no takers. I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I know that if a modest amount of money were coming in regularly, I could take time off from my daily money-grubbing and make DigiTrad considerably bigger and better. I suspect that the same thing goes for Max and Mudcat. I've also noted that, while it's easy to get lots of discussion, and many suggestions, it doesn';ty seem possible to get any action. When one considers the vast number of people belonging to, visiting and using Mudcat, and the relatively minuscule amount of money required for happy, healthy operation, this constant struggle for economic survival is depressing, to say the least. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: DougR Date: 17 May 01 - 10:55 PM Dick, I suspect that you are absolutely right. I also suspect that if a membership structure (strictly volunteer)devised, it might be surprising how much money could be raised. Supposed for example a monthly membership structure similar to the following were offered: Member $1 (U.S) per month Friend $3 Supporter $5 The membership fees could be paid, monthly, quarterly or annually. And suppose that 30 to 40 percent of those who access the Mudcat regularly chose to particpate at one level or the other, how much money would be raised? Only Max, bert, Joe, and perhaps you, would know. A regular cash flow could be created for the Mudcat, and no separate organization would be necessary, and no one would be contributing so much that they might feel they should have a voice in how the Mudcat is operated. Is that feasible? I think so. The key, I think would be to assure those who did not find the Mudcat valuable enough to them to contribute $12 per year, or simply could not afford it, could still access the site without predjudice. I would suggest that those of you who operate the Mudcat take a pencil to paper, or turn to your calculator, and do a projection of what the possibilites for income might be. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: DougR Date: 18 May 01 - 12:00 PM Er ...hello? |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: wysiwyg Date: 18 May 01 - 12:04 PM Speaking personally, I have not gone into "ignore" mode, I am just still thinking about how to respond to the last several posts. It seems (although due to CRS I cannot quote chapter and verse) like ground that has been gone over before and thus, IMO, is not likely to produce much change but much "discussion." But I dunno what to say instead of what I just said, and it sounds really rude and uncaring to me, but that isn't how I feel about it at all. Aaarghhhh! So I will be revisiting the ideas I laid out when we get back from our trip at the end of the month... and if anyone is interested in continuing thought along those lines (including Onstage Media personnel and of course MAX) I hope they will get in touch so we can see if some synergy develops. Cuz.... it ain't talk about what to do that is needed... it is people DOING what they and Max, together, think makes sense. Right? ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: KingBrilliant Date: 18 May 01 - 12:32 PM Speaking as a probable complete *rse & hoping that people don't start shouting at me to look harder... but I didn't actually know about the Amazon thing until I chanced to hear a reference on the mudcat radio to no-one using it. Does it still work for a UK Amazon account? Similarly I didn't know about Bron's CD or how to get it. I'd love to buy one. I think what is needed is clear idiot-proof information about these initiatives. Also - I get panicked when things are in dollars & I don't know how to buy things over the internet from UK to US. I daresay its all simple & obvious really - but being a bit of an *rse I tend to give up early... I bought a T-shirt off Bill, but I wouldn't have got round to buying one via the site. I know its pathetic to want everything spelt out to the nth degree & I'm only revealing my twattishness because I expect there are others like me. I think we need to think about making enough info easy to find & about localisation. Money will flow in easier if its made easier to do. Kris |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: katlaughing Date: 18 May 01 - 12:37 PM DougeR, I think that is a terrific idea and, as I noted above, that is how NPR operates. They accept monthyl, quarterly, and yearly doantions and in ANY amount one can afford. As I also said, it is easy for each individual to set it up to happen automatically, through their bank. Dick, I hear you, it has been a lot of talking and good thoughts on solutions, but very few follow-throughs, save for THE FAIR ONE doing the Mudcat Calendar, which can stil be purchased for a $10 donation.*hint, hint* I do think it would be good to hear more from Max, esp. on Doug's idea of membership. Heck, even Girls Scouts pay dues! kat |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Max Date: 18 May 01 - 01:00 PM If we're not bankrupt by the end of the year I'll be amazed. Yes. But I've said that 4 years in a row, and here I still am. When business gets slow, The Mudcat is vulnerable. To run the Mudcat without any equipment/bandwidth/software from Onstage I estimate modestly that it would cost about $400 per month. If we want to separate the fate of Mudcat with the fate of Onstage, that is what we need. In the meantime, Onstage is glad to continue to do what it does. The best way to support the Mudcat is to find work for Onstage. That keeps the bills paid. Any money we get from contributions, calendar sales, auctions, etc. I'll put in the Mudcat bank account in preparation for the always-possible sale or fold of Onstage. I would like to raise $400 per month from the Mudcat, that's a goal and a challenge for you and for me.
I'm an entrepreneur. I take chances. That is what I do for a living, and I love it. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose, that's OK with me, that's the game. Onstage is the chips with which I gamble. Onstage happens to currently support about 90% of the Mudcat, which ties them together. The Mudcat has become something that I am unwilling to throw into the pot. $400 per month will set it free. In the meantime, its in the mix.
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Allan C. Date: 18 May 01 - 01:39 PM Thanks, Max, for giving the straight of it to us. We'll see what we can do about getting something going for Onstage and to up the ante toward supporting the Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: mousethief Date: 18 May 01 - 01:42 PM $400 a month is just 80 people giving $5 a month. That's just $60 a year. We should have a pledge drive like Public Radio. Alex |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: katlaughing Date: 18 May 01 - 01:43 PM So if 40 of us donated $10 per month, that would free it up! Or, 80 of us at $5...this sounds very doable phoaks! I am going to my bank online and reset my automatic payment option. Who's next? We Can Do This!! Thanks, Max! kat |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: catspaw49 Date: 18 May 01 - 01:58 PM Thank you Max. I haven't posted because I was waiting for you to show up and you said what I believe you have said on numerous occasions before. So why don't we just consider this............In the past few years, I've kicked in some bucks and some junk and a moustache tuner and.......A lot of us have kicked in as we can and when we can, but until one of these comes up sometimes we don't think about it. The real problem besides the lack of money is that you never know when it's going to show up. SO............. 1---Let's take Doug's idea and DO IT. You can pay yearly or monthly (or not at all....it isn't mandatory) and you PLEDGE RIGHT NOW to send 1-3-5-10-20 dollars a monthe to the 'Cat. My internet service costs 20/month so I figure the 'Cat oughta' be good for $10/month. I pledge to send this amount to Max over the next year and I'll make my first payment today. 2---Max isn't getting much from the corporate percentage things from Amazon and the like so let's have a Permathread (not labeled PERMATHREAD) that we can delete posts from, but explains the ways to contribute by buying through the Mudcat. If we refresh it regularly maybe it get's noticed because the question of "where do I send money" or "how do I buy" comes up all the time.......And having the info in front of folks on a daily basis maybe reminds us all that the place ain't free!!!! 3---Keep the auction and the special stuff going and keep refreshing the onrunning auction thread. Let's not just sit on our collective asses this time! Pick some dollar amount and COMMIT NOW .... A dollar a month, 5 bucks a month.....whatever.........just do it NOW!!! C'Mon gang.....Let's quit talking about it and just do it. Spaw
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Pseudolus Date: 18 May 01 - 02:05 PM I'm in....this is a great idea. In fact my bank has it set up so that I can have it done automatically. I don't have to remember every month, a check will just simply be sent.....very convenient. A LOT of banks have online banking so if yours does, then set it up to go monthly, and then never worry about it again!!!
Frank |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: Pseudolus Date: 18 May 01 - 02:16 PM Boy that felt good!!! I've been around here for about a year now, and I've had all good intentions of sending in a donation but have failed to do so. Now it's a done deal, every month, and I'll never have to remember..... Thanks to Lonesome EJ for starting the thread!! Frank |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: DougR Date: 18 May 01 - 02:18 PM I'll pledge a $100, Max. I've already sent $50 this year so I'll send you $50 more today. DougR |
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Subject: RE: Will Mudcat Survive? From: DougR Date: 18 May 01 - 02:26 PM Ok, so our goal is $4,800 to be raised by 18 May 2002. Right? That will give Max the $400 per month he needs. Max, would you send us a campaign report from time to time so that we can know the progress of the fund drive? We don't need names just a gross amount raised to date. What would REALLY be great would be to reach goal by June 18, 2001! And I think we can! DougR
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