Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1

Subject: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 01 - 06:39 AM

Hiya

Anyone know anything about the Lancashire Fusiliers in WW1 and shortly after? Reason being, on a totaly different thread, I have discovered that some of the stories my Grandad told may have had the benefit of a little poetic license.

We know he was born in 1893 so that makes him 21 at the outbreak of war. He joined the Lancashire Fusiliers in Bury early in the conflict. He was wounded twice. Once by bullet and once by gas. He won a French civilian medal for rescuing a little girl from drowning. Somewhere along the line his division (or some other sub-section) suffered so many losses that the few survivors were incorporated into the Welsh Fusiliers, with whom he served until de-mob.

Gets a bit more confusing now. He also told of being in Ireland after WW1 and was involved in the troubles there. He told us many stories of how well he got on with the Irish and how he was welcomed by local families, which, knowing him as I did, I can well believe. What now becomes a little dificult to reconcile is that he used to tell my mum he was in the black and tans.

I am informed that no Irish family would welcome the 'tans as they were formed as a force to strike terror into the Irish. Also they were not formed until 1920. His stories from Ireland were perfectly plausible and full of the type of detail which makes you believe them. To be in the 'tans he would have had to de-mob and the re-join a year or two later. Does not sound likely they would accept him in the condition he was anyway! And as to belonging to a force of terror? 5' 4" tall. 8 stone wet through. Blind in one eye after the gassing. I think not. So, big question. Were some of the 'tans not as bad as they are depicted or was he not realy in the 'tans at all? Was he winding my mum up becasue she used to listen to republican songs???

I think now that he may have finished his active service in Ireland as part of another unit. Looking at the history of the Fuseliers they had connections not only with other Fusilier regiments but some Irish regiments as well - The Connaught Rangers and Dublin Horse for instance. That is the line of research I am interested in.

I once saw a brief service history he had but cannot remember all the details. I hope to get a copy of a more detailed record soon. I am also going to visit the LF museum in Bury soon to see what info I can get but can anyone else recommend any reading or advise of any other sources?

Sorry to be so long winded but I know there are many educated people out there who may be able to help.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

PS - I'm at the Yorkshire gathering this weekend so may not see any responses until Monday. Please feel free to post anything of interest anyway - I have marked the thread.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: AndyG
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:20 AM

Hi Dave,

I don't know much about the WWI LF's but there's about a 25% chance you can get your GF's service record via the PRO, (only 25% of the WWI records survived the bombs of 1940).

Failing that, I'd suggest checking with the reqiment itself. They form part of the Queen's Division, based at Bassingbourn Barracks near Cambridge. A web search showed that they Regimental Museum is in Bury.

AndyG

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: AndyG
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:44 AM

More info on the formation and organisation of the Tans on this page, LAW ENFORCEMENT IN IRELAND BEFORE THE GARDA SÍOCHÁNA

AndyG

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: AndyG
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:57 AM

The PRO

Lancashire Fusiliers Museum or
The Lancashire Fusiliers
The Queen's Division

AndyG

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: Noreen
Date: 18 May 01 - 08:07 AM

Was he in the Salford Pals, Dave? The Salford Pals : The History of the Salford Brigade, the 15th, 16th, 19th and 20th (Service Battalions the Lancashire Fusiliers, 1914-1919) by Michael Stedman sounds interesting.

And you'll have no doubt seen Lancashire Fusiliers Museum website

Good luck! My husband's grandfather was with the Leeds Pals and died from injuries received at the Somme. Husband has done a fair bit of tracing.

Good luck.

Noreen

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 01 - 08:16 AM

Brilliant, Andy. I had seen another link to the museum and decided to visit anyway but I had not seen anything as detailed as this.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 May 01 - 08:23 AM

I don't think he was, Noreen. Having joined in Bury I should think he was in one of the Bury divisions rather than the Salford ones. Used to beat me why he walked to Bury (10 miles) rather than Salford (2 miles) when he enlisted. Guess Swinton folk never liked going into Salford! More realisticaly I think that the Bury battalions were formed before the Salford ones. I think he just wanted to join up early.

See you soon

Dave

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: AndyG
Date: 18 May 01 - 08:53 AM

Dave,

From the timeline and location of enlistment I imagine your grandfather enlisted in 1914 in the Regular Army, the LF's home being Wellington Barracks, Bury. The Pals Battalions were raised later in the war when it was realised the men wouldn't be Home before the Leaves Fall. They were usually raised as additional battalions of extant regular formations but numbered after the recruiting figures were in.

This was the "Your Country Needs You" recruiting campaign (Kitchener's Men). That provided the British Army with forces to fight at Loos (1915) and The Somme (1916).

Conscription followed (1917.)

AndyG

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: Noreen
Date: 18 May 01 - 09:33 AM

Thanks Andy, I didn't realise that about the timing.

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: The Walrus
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:03 PM

DtG,

Looking at your notes and comparing them to what little I have, it seems that your grand father may have served in several battalions (not unusual). I can find no refernce to survivors of a bn being absorbed by the RWF, however, if a man left his battalion for any length of time (sick, wounded etc.)before late 1916 he returned to his own battalion, after this, to any battalion of his own regiment and in late 1917/early 1918 to any unit which the army need to send them thus a Lancashire Fusilier returning from hospital might well find himself in the Royal Welsh/Welch<1> Fusiliers while his mate, discharge a week later might find himself in the Devons or the Gordon Highlanders.

I can find no mergers to form composite battalions, but Four territorial battalions were reduced to a cardre or disbanded (2/5th; 2/6th; 2/7th & 2/8, ) in 1918 during the massive reorganisation brought about by lack of manpower and extended frontage, while and two "New Army Bns (9th & 10th) were disbanded in France in August 1918 (probably due to casualties)

Could your GF have been a Territorial? This would have required him to report to the Depot at Bury (which might account for the trip there). If he went to Ireland with the Lancashire Fusiliers then it was with the 1st Bn.

As AndyG says, there is a chance that his records will be in the PRO, however, a lot were destroyed by bombing in 1941. There is an ongoing project to restore those burned records which survive, it's worth looking at their web site to see if your letter batch has been done yet (I'm sorry, I don't have the web address to hand).

Good Luck with the search and let us know how it turns out.

Walrus

<1> Welch is a valid spelling, but I can't remember if it is wartime or post war - W

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: The Walrus
Date: 18 May 01 - 07:21 PM

Sorry about that, this suddenly got posted mid typing

AndyG

You wrote: ..... The Pals Battalions were raised later in the war when it was realised the men wouldn't be Home before the Leaves Fall. They were usually raised as additional battalions of extant regular formations but numbered after the recruiting figures were in....

Ray Westlake in "Kitchener's Army" writes.... " On 11 August <1914> Kitchener's now famous proclamation headed "YOUR KING AND COUNTRY NEED YOU. A CALL TO ARMS" was published and called for some 100 000 men aged between 19 and 30 to enlist, Within two weeks the required number had come forward and on 21 August Army Order 324 approved the addition to the Army of six divisions and Army Troops.
Included in this Army Order were details of the comosition and nomenclature of the new units and formations....The new battalions were to be raised as additional battalions of the regiments of Infantry of the Line, receiving numbers following on consecutively from the existing battalions of their regiments...."

Goos luck

Walrus

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 19 May 01 - 07:23 PM

Always worth checking with your Regimental museum, they often have stuff that doesn't get to the Army Records office , Ruskin Ave, Kew, London.

LTS

Subject: RE: Non-Music: Lancashire fusiliers in WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 May 01 - 04:36 AM

Thanks all. Found the web sites. Surname Stanley and S's are done so if his record was retrievable he should be there. Also found out we can still use the released MoD records as well as the PRO for WW1 service. Aparantly a letter with name, number, SAE and a cheque for 20 quid gets us the details if there. Here's hoping! Going go to the museum next Saturday all being well as well.

I knew there were some knowledgeable people out there.

Thanks again

Dave