selecting new guitar advice

Subject: selecting new guitar advice
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:51 AM

I'm looking for some advice on buying guitars. I already have some nice ones, a '74 Martin D18 and a Guild D4, but I'm not quite satisfied and looking to make some changes. The problem stems from the condition the Martin is in. The bridge has had some problems to where I've been advised by several luthiers not to string it up with anything heavier than light gauge strings, and combined with a low saddle, I'm not quite satisfied with the projection.

I tend to do a lot of flatpicking on the Martin and some fingerpicking too. I've been using the Guild for alternate tunings, using medium gauge strings and playing primarily in CGCGCE and DADGAD. My only complaint with it is that the neck is more slender than the Martin, which I've had longer and am probably more accustomed to.

What I'm looking to do is replace one or both of them at about the same cost so I can keep playing the same styles. I've thought of two basic approaches. One would be to just replace the Martin and find a guitar that would work well for both flatpicking and fingerpicking, probably still using light gauge strings. My other option would be to replace both of them, finding a good flatpicking guitar to string up with mediums and play standard and also in alternate tunings. I could then find another guitar, probably a smaller bodied guitar, just for fingerpicking and string it up lighter.

One of my questions is about possible damage to a guitar by stringing it with mediums and changing tunings frequently (always tuning lower than EADGBE of course). I'm also wondering if anyone has advice on good guitars in these kind of price ranges (roughly $700 to $1700 on a dreadnaught or $400 to $800 on a smaller guitar). Any advice would be helpful.

Jeff

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: GUEST,BUZZ
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:58 AM

Have had no trouble with my Takemine model EN10.it sounds good all the time,but theyre not cheap

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:03 PM

Jeff,

Its my opinion that you can't do alot better than what are doing with now, but.... There are Taylors, Lowdens, Breedlove, Larivees. Any number of fine commercially made guitars in a raft of price ranges. I honestly believe that with your requirements there is no "One size fits all" guitar.

Have you considered going to a guitar maker with your requirements and your budget and saying, "Lets see what you can do?" You may be surprised to find that a good luthier can build what you want in your price range. Plus you have the added niceness of getting what you want rather than taking what you get.

Don

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:12 PM

Whatever you decide, don't ask Kendall for advice. he will tell you to trade it in for a Taylor.
Mary, sulking in the corner with her Martin.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Justa Picker
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:13 PM

(Dumb question but...) Have you considered replacing the bridge and the bridge plate on the D-18? It would cost you a lot less than replacing it?...or are there extensive structural problems in addition to the bridge?

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:17 PM

Why not just get the "standard Martin neck re-set"? It's a very common operation these days, and because of the angle that Martin necks are set with at the factory, rarely does a guitar of twenty five years or so, not need one. Will cost about 350-450 and you still have your vintage Martin...good for another twenty five years of playing...with any kind of strings you choose.

Rick

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: UB Ed
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 12:49 PM

Rick, got any more info on this standard Martin neck reset?

Jeff, I went through serious "I need a new ax angst" and wound up with a Lowden O series. Even as a loyal Martin player, I've really enjoyed the Lowden.

Ed

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:13 PM

I'll add my voice to the choir on this -- look into a neck reset, along with whatever additional repairs might be needed in the bridge area. Bridges sometimes pull away from the face, but can be reglued. I'm not a huge fan of Guilds (personal preference), but a D-18 with some miles on it can be a damn nice guitar. There's something about the character of an older, well-played Martin dreadnought that can really create some magic.

Once your guitar has been taken care of structurally, it should handle medium gauge strings with no problem at all. You also should have no problem shifting into alternate tunings, particularly those that are reached by loosening some of the strings -- open D, open G, DADGAD, open C (one of the strings is raised a half-step in that one, but it's no big deal), etc. If you play with very low action in standard tuning, you may need to raise it a bit to a "compromise" point to adapt to slack tunings. Other than that, your guitar should handle it just fine -- my guitars always do.

UB Ed, I also have a Lowden O-style, and I can't play it enough. Great guitars.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: kendall
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:27 PM

Before you do anything, have a good luthier give it a complete check up. Then if he condemns it, GET A TAYLOR hehehe. You would do well to also check out Larrivee and Santa Cruz.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 01:35 PM

"One of my questions is about possible damage to a guitar by stringing it with mediums and changing tunings frequently"

well, it never seemes to bother Don Ross, James Keelaghan, Stephen Fearing, or any oghte other folks who I see tuning and detuning all the time... Stephen swears by medium guage strings on his Manzer...

If you're being advised to notuse anything heavier than light guage, that'd lead me to suspect that the bridge is lifting or something... which shouldn't be an impossible task for any even half way decent guitar tec. to repair...

If it is unreparable, and yer looking for good affordable guitars, log on to Lasido.com

That's my advice for guitars... but I'm a little biased maybe...

Good luck eh!

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: GUEST,Don Meixner
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 03:22 PM

I seem to recall that for years Marin listed Medium as the gauge of choice for their "D" size guitars. Unless the new tunings put greater tension on the top of the guitar I fail to see where retuning an instrument will do significant damage to a top.

I have always used Silk and Steel strings on my Martin 0-16 NY but the repair shop at Martin told me I could put Bronze Light gauge wires on it without damage to the guitar.

I would ask the luthiers in the group if the tension required to damage a guitar is a total all the strings? Or can changinging one string to a greater tension be enough to damage a top?

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: GUEST,Jeff
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 04:20 PM

Thanks for all the good advice. It might help for me to clarify a little bit the problems with the Martin. Believe me, I still like the tone and would prefer to just get it repaired if possible.

I bought the guitar about six years ago, and in my haste did not notice that the bridge was pulling up some and that it was also "bellied up" some behind the bridge (the latter I guess is quite common). A good repairman reglued it, and he suggested not stringing it up any heavier. I have not noticed any more problems with the bridge. One other guitar store owner said he would have some concerns about stringing it up heavier and suggested that I have it looked at to make sure no braces were loose (I think I'm rembering this correctly). I also once had the saddle brought down some (I might have got a bit obsessive about this) to the point that the action might even be on the low side.

All this serves to remind me that it probably would be best to get it checked out again before writing it off. Any other suggestions.

Jeff

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 04:50 PM

Well, most of it's been said and what hasn't you can find by reading some of the hundreds of threads we have run on guitars.......Enter guitar in the filter box and set the filter three years and then pick out some that might fit.

Like you don't breed mules to run in the Derby and you wouldn't have used Secretariat as a plow horse, guitars are made for different things and the "One Ax Fits All" concept generally isn't real succesful either. You have a good combo there, get a neck reset and a general "tune-up" by a qualified luthier/repairman and you'll probably be happy.........unless you have G.A.S. (Guitar Acquisition Syndrome)......In that case, just go buy some damn thing you've always wanted and don't try to justify it!

Also, if you want a fine site for background and debunking myths and the like, go to Frank Ford at FRETS.COM and enjoy the thoughts and techniques of one of the best.

Spaw

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 04:51 PM

Ya... I never tough of that... rebracing, and/or adding a couple of new braces, clamping and gluing might bring it back to it's original shape I guess...

I'm no luthier though, so what the hell do -I- know, eh?!?

:-)

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 05:13 PM

Justa picker gets his neck reset every morning before breakfast. He's the expert on this little matter. Sure beats buyin' a new guitar.

Rick

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, well, that'd be JP. Personally, I can think of several things I'd prefer to get "reset" in the morning.........

Spaw

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:10 PM

The '70s were not Martin's best years. A great many of the guitars they put out in that decade had misplaced bridge saddles which created intonation problems. I had a '71 or so D-18 that seemed fine except it never developed much power in its tone, and I gave up and sold it.

A suggestion for a guitar that works for both flat- and fingerpicking, and sounds good in alternate tunings, is the Martin model formerly called D-18VMS, now just D-18VS. An "old-style" dreadnought (12 frets to the body, slotted headpiece, wider neck); the extra volume in the "shoulders" where they come up to the 12th fret gives it lots of extra ring and power. I have one that was my "best" guitar for years, and is kept in DADGAD since I got my Collings, it sounds even better in that tuning.

Martin's supposed list price for these is about 3 thousand US. That means a new one should run you about 2 from a reasonable dealer, and a good used one maybe 1,500.

Peter.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 09:32 PM

Generally Midchuck, I always tend to agreee with you on these things, but although it's true that the 70's weren't one of Martin's peak periods, they weren't all dogs either. I had a D-18 that was just fine and a D-28 that sucked so bad it should have said "Hoover" instead of Martin on the peghead.

Several builders have guitars that do the all-roound thing and most are not dreadnoughts, or at least like the VS are significant variants (good suggestion BTW). But in most conditions, Guest Jeff has a nice pair there and I'd like to know what can't be fixed with the bridge that keeps it from being "normal D-18" that works well with a slightly higher action and mediums....most do.

Spaw

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:32 PM

Of course, I forgot to add, the 12-fret neck would be a drawback if you're one of those strange people who actually uses the frets above the seventh or so. To well-bred folkies and bluegrassers, this is not an issue.

Peter.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 10:35 PM

TWELVE? Geez Peter, if that's the citerion, can I get one with a 7 fret neck?

Spaw

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Oversoul
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:15 PM

Overthinking is not a sin, but try this. Don't buy another guitar, get an octave mandolin or a mandola instead! I imagine you are just bored with your "guitar" approach to music. I am so bored by people bitching about their stupid guitars (or bragging about them) MOVE ON! Get a spike-fiddle! Sit on the damn floor and play a sitar, why not?

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:35 PM

LMAO......Hi Dave, haven't seen you much lately.....Nice to see you're in your usual form.

Spaw

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Oversoul
Date: 01 Jun 01 - 11:55 PM

Usual form? Thanks! We need more spike-fiddles and tamburas out here. New music, other music, guitars are OK, but let's think....

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Justa Picker
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 01:42 AM

Yes, Rick and Spaw, I have been through a couple neck resets lately (argghhh!!!) but it is necessary. However it leads me to believe that Bill Collings and Taylor are onto something with the bolt on necks. I owned a Collings for a few years and not once during changing climatic conditions did it ever require an adjustment from its original set up done for me at the time of purchase. I cannot say this about my Martins. They're damned tempermental to climate changes and they go in 2 or 3 times a year for setup adjustments.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: dwditty
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 06:21 AM

The one guitar rhat seems to cut across all musical boundaries - folk, blues, rock, pop, jazz, etc, is the Gibson J-45. I have several really great guitars that I love, but there are times when I still miss that old J-45.

dw

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: kendall
Date: 02 Jun 01 - 08:24 AM

I had a Gibson j-45 which I got in 1956. The bridge lifted, and, the top bellied behind the bridge to the point where the intonation sounded more like a really cheap K=Mart special. My local store, BUCKDANCERS CHOICE went to work on it, and, although they were not able to flatten the face to its' original position, they did get it down some. Then, they made a compensated bridge bone, and, it became a "Kick ass" guitar (according to Dave Mallett who now owns it) I liked the weight of that old ax, and, the bass it had, but, it died with a capo. It could not compare with the Taylor.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 06 Jun 01 - 01:18 PM

How about taking the Martin back to Martin? Might be worth the trip if you live in the east. If this is not feasable, contact them and see what they can do for you. These guitars carry life-time guarantees if I'm not mistaken. Maybe the guarantee only pertains to the one who initially buys it though. I'd give them a jingle and see what could be done first.

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Fortunato
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 11:25 AM

Guest, Jeff.

If you live within a reasonable distance of Woodstock, Maryland, then let me know here. I know a Martin Maestro there. He is truly excellent.

Chance

Subject: RE: selecting new guitar advice
From: Jeep man
Date: 07 Jun 01 - 09:48 PM

If you still want to sell that D18, give me a personal message. Jeep Man