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a culture of saccharine
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Subject: a culture of saccharine From: chet w. Date: 15 Dec 97 - 09:08 PM A thing that's often on my mind (prepare your weapons)is the possibility of losing the very culture that so many of us seem to be trying so hard to preserve. I've played country (not Nashville), old-time, Irish, Bluegrass, folk or whatever you call it for most of my 43 years. In the eighties I saw people begin to attempt to "decorate their lives", so to speak, with whatever aspect of the "traditional" culture made them feel good, thereby redefining for themselves and, sadly, often attempting to force their own interpretation on the world. In my town, Columbia, SC, there is a regular dance group (old-time and contra) at whose gatherings you had better toe the line. A beer or a hamburger will make you unpopular real fast. I've seen the same thing happening at festivals that used to be good fun, such as the ones in Black Mountain, NC (there the dancers throw elbows like NBA stars if you get in their way, in other words, if you're just trying to learn or to have a good time). Just imagine square dances decades ago if everyone had to be vegetarian, Birkenstock-shod (I wear them every day), and never gave the fiddler a dram. I find this trend disturbing, pervasive, destructive, and downright silly. Let's lighten up. Music, especially in the oral tradition, is supposed to be fun, not something to be pretentious or righteous about. Fire away, tofu and all. Chet W. |
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Subject: a culture of saccharine From: chet w. Date: 15 Dec 97 - 09:11 PM A thing that's often on my mind (prepare your weapons)is the possibility of losing the very culture that so many of us seem to be trying so hard to preserve. I've played country (not Nashville), old-time, Irish, Bluegrass, folk or whatever you call it for most of my 43 years. In the eighties I saw people begin to attempt to "decorate their lives", so to speak, with whatever aspect of the "traditional" culture made them feel good, thereby redefining for themselves and, sadly, often attempting to force their own interpretation on the world. In my town, Columbia, SC, there is a regular dance group (old-time and contra) at whose gatherings you had better toe the line. A beer or a hamburger will make you unpopular real fast. I've seen the same thing happening at festivals that used to be good fun, such as the ones in Black Mountain, NC (there the dancers throw elbows like NBA stars if you get in their way, in other words, if you're just trying to learn or to have a good time). Just imagine square dances decades ago if everyone had to be vegetarian, Birkenstock-shod (I wear them every day), and never gave the fiddler a dram. I find this trend disturbing, pervasive, destructive, and downright silly. Let's lighten up. Music, especially in the oral tradition, is supposed to be fun, not something to be pretentious or righteous about. Fire away, tofu and all. Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: rastrelnikov Date: 16 Dec 97 - 01:00 AM I haven't noticed the trends which you have. Then again, it was only about seven years ago when I discovered that lots of other people besides me like folk music. And women too! I don't have too much interest in preserving folk or traditional songs. I sing them because they're so much more natural for non-professionals to sing and because I like them. I like the idea of encouraging songs that sound good by candlelight or by a fireside, and to me, that means folk. I expect the woeful things you speak of are part of mainstream culture encroaching into folk culture. Or they could also be the result of mismanagement. When experts receive absolutely no protection from the beginners, year after year, they'll start to get pissed off at the beginners. Usually that sort of thing happens when the management likes holding the event more than participating in the event. ...but actually elbowing dancers. It's a wonder there are no fights.
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Shula Date: 16 Dec 97 - 12:20 PM Dear Chet, You have put me in mind of a little story I once heard about a young novice in a Zen Buddhist monastery whose first assignment was to sweep the fallen leaves from the garden path. Wishing to please the master, he not only swept, but got down on hands and knees to ensure that he had not missed a single stray particle of debris.
Upon the completion of this exercise, he reported to the master, awaiting what he hoped (expected?) would be some expression of satisfaction with the exactitude of his efforts. The master silenty walked the length of the path beside his new pupil. Then he reached into the neat pile made of the gathered leaves, bringing up a goodly handful, which, to the amazement of the novice, he proceeded to redistribute randomly along the path. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Joe Offer Date: 16 Dec 97 - 02:44 PM Ah, Shula, it's good to have you back. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: chet w Date: 16 Dec 97 - 08:24 PM folks, please don't misunderstand (not that I think you have). I am not trying to promote "purity" in folk music. I like it when people try new things, stretch the boundaries, etc. Right now I'm crazy about a Hungarian singer named Marta Sebesteyen whose band, called Muzikas, includes synthesizers of all things. I just don't get it when people take bits and pieces of a culture and hang them on the walls of their lives like bad paintings. Rastelnikov is probably right about the intrusion of mainstream culture, just as happened to the hippies and the beatniks before them. But I will say that radical, self-righteous "new-agers" are not continuing any tradition that I've ever seen. They are just dressing themselves in the parts that look sexy at the time and twisting the rest. Shula,I loved the zen story. I think you were saying what I was saying, but maybe you weren't. What would be the sound of one boot clogging? thanks for replying, Chet w. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Shula Date: 17 Dec 97 - 12:29 AM Dear Joe, Good to BE back; missed my cyberpub like salmon miss the spawning pools. (Left a note in response to your post to the longer "saccharine" thread.) Dear Chet, Indeed so. Dear All, Well met, and merrily!
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Tim Jaques tjaques@netcom.ca Date: 18 Dec 97 - 07:24 PM I see much of this at gatherings of folk societies. People sit around intently like they were at a classical concert in a soft-seater. They should be singing along and dancing and laughing. Drinking beer is optional but they shouldn't scowl at those who do. This is why I like folk gatherings in Cape Breton and other parts of eastern Canada. People of all ages actually go to have fun and whoop it up and dance. The sound of the fiddles and the pound of the step dancing is wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Frank in the swamps Date: 19 Dec 97 - 12:09 PM There is an "Irish pub" near here that was supposed to have a celtic band one night. The group consisted of two fellas from the gulf coast (Florida) in kilts playing guitar and bass, a canadian in blue jeans playing bagpipes. It was folkish rock & roll. the funniest part was their learned ignorance, the piper introduced a tune as "a rebel song from Scotlands last war of independence" and proceeded to play "Ye Jacobites by Name". It was clear he had no clue that the wars of independence were settled four hundred years before the Jacobite rebellion. It was puzzling however that he could actually sing the song and not realize that it was condemning the Jacobites. But the movie "Braveheart" was a big success, and being Scottish is now groovy. Seems everybody wants to be tribal. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: chet w Date: 19 Dec 97 - 10:05 PM Hey Frank in the swamps, I come from the swamps myself, in NE South Carolina. Interesting your comment that everybody wants to be tribal. Part of a long-time theory of mine is that humans have what I've been calling a "tribal instinct". With the evolutionary collapse of tribes, then communities, then families, people are left with nothing to which they can swear holy allegiance, so they find something/anything to take the place, to fill that space. I've used this theory to explain fanatical sports displays. Here it's football. You could be a mass-murdering maniac but if, on game days, you show up at the stadium with the team logo on your shirt and car and face, you have 60,000 friends (tribesmen, homeboys, etc) who would back you to the death in a fight (which, depending on the particular game, is a real possibility). Probably explains a lot of other modern wierdnesses as well. There was an picture on an album cover I used to have by an old-time string band. The title of the album was something like "Play Music While the World Burns", and the picture showed the band sitting around a campfire, instruments in hand, while a large globe blazed away between them. Sometimes I try to take that attitude myself for purposes of hanging onto sanity. write again, Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Frank in the swamps Date: 22 Dec 97 - 01:04 PM Chet W. I believe your theory is correct. We are a social animal, it's in our dna. The downside of this impulse, in the modern world, is the ugly manifestations of racial & ethnic hatred, but the upside is this wonderful variety of culture. I don't want to sound too hard on the boys in the band I mentioned, I appreciate the desire to establish identity with a group or tribe one admires, and the music was pretty good, for rock & roll, but we're all going to be stuck with sacharine culture if people don't start pushing their noggins a little harder. Short attention spans (smell a t.v. set) and mental inertia more than downright stupidity turn dream catchers into ornaments to hang on the rearview window. Maybe if kids in school were taught folksong and folklore in history class, along with political/military events, they would make more connections between past and present and would have a deeper appreciation for not just ethnic diversity, but the underlying unity of culture. In an ironic way, when you realize how much of the cultural motifs are just window dressing, you develop a better appreciation for good window dressing. Frank I.T.S.
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Jon W. Date: 22 Dec 97 - 01:20 PM Chet and Frank, you said it. The study of humanities is what makes us human. Here they cut humanities but fund sports, and what do we get? Gangbangers with road (and 'roid) rage. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Date: 22 Dec 97 - 03:30 PM Hi all I was recently in Dusseldorf (germany, near the Dutch border) for the day (a four hour drive for us) to go to a christmas market (what does this have to do whith anything, you ask, well) and we where walking past this pub, where there was music coming out. It was John Denver, one of my all time favorites, so we told my dad and brother to go on, and me and my mum stepped in. And we spent the whole afternoon dancing with strangers, drinking beer or cola or what we wanted, and mind the fact that we speak no german, and when we left, everybody kept pulling us back, to join in again. And everybody was singing a long and having a generally good time. at one moment, Hans (a friend of the family) went to take a picture of mum, but one of the lady's thougt she wasn't smiling enough, so she came up behind and said "smile, you're on candid camera". The played Folk, country, blues and god-knows hwat else, and we all enjoyed ourselves thoroughly. This kind of event is not dead, it's just rarer and more spontanious. I definatly hadn't planned to drive four hours to sing along and dance to music! But we enjoyed it none the less. Selene By the way, I am a vegetarian, and that has nothing to do with my music choice! It's by philosophy, and if there's one thing I loath, it's the taste of saccarine. Thought you all might enjoy this ray of hope! |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Earl Date: 22 Dec 97 - 03:33 PM Another "culture of saccharine" symptom is the Disnification of culture. They take artifacts from any culture, smooth the edges, paint them in primary colors and add a Disney logo. If they can make "Disney's Winne-the-Pooh" and "Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame" is anyting safe? |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Jack (who is called jack) Date: 22 Dec 97 - 04:23 PM Chet, You seem to be saying that a person can like traditional music & dance and vote republican at the same time?! The mind reels. (grin-wink) Jack |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: chet w Date: 23 Dec 97 - 09:17 AM So many good thoughts! I have nothing against vegetarians. I have nothing against anybody as long as they don't hurt anybody else or proselytize. When I was performing regularly (as I hope to be doing again soon), I did two distinct types of shows. One was a childrens' show, in which I did indeed try to stick to tradtional childrens' folk songs (Turkey in the Straw, etc). Lately I got a call from a woman who wanted live music for a small child's birthday party, and when she found that I did not know Barney the Dinosaur songs or songs from recent Disney movies, she said I'll call you back and didn't. Speaking of Disney, I heard that when they opened the Disney world in France, people were so confused that they didn't serve wine in the restaurants that it nearly went down after the first year. In French Disney World, they now serve wine, but not here. I have spent some time in Czechoslovakia/Czech Republic, my wife being Czech, since the fall of Communism. One thing that impresses me every time I go is that whenever people get together, they sing! When I was playing in clubs (mostly old country and jazz and such as that), I could never get anybody to sing, even at the end of the show on "Goodnight, Irene". Don't know what that means. As for the possibility of someone thoughtful enough to listen to traditional music or jazz and vote Republican, I doubt it. But I'll have to say that here in South Carolina the difference between Republicans and Democrats is generally kind of vague. The only reason, I believe, that most Southern politicians were Democrats until recently was that the tradition was established back when people remembered that Lincoln was a Republican. We've still got Democrats that can make most people's Republicans look like Che Guevara. I'm a science teacher, by the way, in a high school for incarcerated juveniles. Any other teachers out there? Maybe we can do something about this situation we discuss here. I keep trying. Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Whippoorwill Date: 23 Dec 97 - 10:23 AM Darn right you can enjoy/play/sing traditional music and vote Republican! And who said just because a song is simple and fun, like Turkey in the Straw, it's a children's song? Most of my "performances," if you can call them that, are for my contemporaries - folks in the 50-70 age group - and their favorites are things like "Froggy Went a'Courting" and "The Old Lady that Swallowed a Fly." Frank, you're right about kids needing to be taught folklore in history class. It would be nice, and safer for the country in the long run, if they were taught REAL history as well, instead of the watered-down revisionist crap they're being fed nowadays. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Earl Date: 23 Dec 97 - 10:48 AM I agree that you can't make any blanket statement about the politcs of people who like folk music. The first place I heard Leadbelly was at the house of a childhood friend. His father was rumored to be a John Birtcher and in '68 he worked for George Wallace. When he felt liberal he voted Republican. But he loved Leadbelly. The only point being that people are too complex and unpredictible to pigeonhole. I, for example, love folk music and I don't even own a pair of Birkenstocks! (not a Republican though) |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Bert Date: 23 Dec 97 - 01:12 PM Disnification?? Hey Earl, That's a good word. I have been somewhat suspicious of Disney ever since I saw what he did to Alice. How someone could make that movie and completely miss all of Carol's humor I don't know. I am not going to touch that Republican topic. People all really want the same thing - a balance between freedom and control. It's just where you draw the line. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Joe Offer Date: 23 Dec 97 - 02:54 PM Here in California, I'm having trouble with the removal of the word "Christmas" from polite speech. The Sacramento Public Library will be closed on December 25 for "the holiday," and on January 1 for "New Year's Day." I was pleased to see, however, that U.S. Post Office across the street will be closed for "Christmas." I call myself a liberal, I think, but sometimes I wonder. It sometimes seems it's the liberals in this country who are trying to cleanse our culture and language of anything anybody might possibly construe as offensive. I think we need to savor the richness and diversity of the various cultures and traditions of this world. This homogenization of the world really worries me. It could lead to a very boring future. So, if I wish you all Merry Christmas, I hope you will take it as a good wish. If you give me good wishes for whatever holiday you celebrate, I will be pleased - and I'd love to join the party! But now, what am I going to serve my pagan vegan children for their holiday dinner on December 25?? Best wishes, all. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Earl Date: 23 Dec 97 - 03:45 PM Bert, I couldnt agree more about "Disney's Alice." People seem to love the cartoon though it only superficially resembles the two books. And they're always carful to remove the author's name before neutering the work. Merry Christmas, Chanukah, Kwansa, Yule, Solstice, Saturnalia, Boxing Day, Ramadan, and a happy New Year to all! |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Selene Date: 23 Dec 97 - 06:00 PM Hi all Sorry if I was a tad sharp in my last post, I didn't mean anything but people lately seem to be critisizing my veggie-ness and I think people should be allowed ot make up their own mind. As to Republican or Democrat, I don't even know what these two stand for! Over here we have many more different party's, and still none take my liking. However, I do agree that disney is taking over the place. My brother very adeptly named the Lion King "Bambi with claws". They just seem to rehash all the old stuff, and change it into rubbish! (although, me being sentimental, did sit with a box of tissues when what's-the-baby-lion-called?'s dad died, but I did that with bambi as well). The point is that some of the original Disney is good, it's just the stuff since Disney himself died. And I don't remember them ever bringing out a rehash a year when I was small! And as to Pagan Vegan recipes for Christmas, Joe if you where serious, contact me-I might have some interesting recipes! Looks like I've been rabbiting again, sorry! Selene Interlanes@compuserve.com |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: chet w Date: 23 Dec 97 - 10:47 PM I'm truly sorry if I offended anyone with comments about being vegetarian or republican or whatever. Again, I think people should do whatever makes them comfortable as long as they don't hurt anyone else, and this is not the place for political discussions. It's just that here, in South Carolina, most of the people I hear that are very vocal about being republicans are of the Rush Limbo or Gordon Liddy type, which is not only the opposite of thoughtful but has nothing to do with the history of conservative (or republican) philosophy, just as most people I hear who are very vocal about being democratic or liberal (like the ones who are offended by the word "Christmas"), have very little relation to the history of democratic or liberal philosophy either. I do not identify with either group. I'd like to establish the H.D. Thoreau party. With holiday wishes to all, Chet W. |
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Subject: RE: a culture of saccharine From: Selene Date: 24 Dec 97 - 02:24 PM I'm not offended in any case! by the way, I'd vote for Screaming Lord Sutch,and his Monster Raving Luny party! Selen |
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